The Nineteenth Byte - 2021-05-05 (page 2 of 3)

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3:00 PM

@flawr x≡0 mod n is way better than x≡n mod n

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn You do know I'm joking right? As I said earlier, I genuinely don't care either way, but it's fun to joke about

And go away Lyxal, I know I'm caird :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing you're not joking, you're caird!

@cairdcoinheringaahing beat me to it :(

@rak1507 they are equially valid!

yeah but the first one is much nicer

@ngn peano actually formualted it with starting at 1, and I guess he was bribed to later change it to 0

@rak1507 just a matter of taste:)

3:02 PM

@flawr if you're multiplying two things mod n and one has ns in it it'll be a pain

@flawr sure, but it would be bad notation to have different symbols for the additive identities of different rings

what's easier, 1×3 or (n+1)×(n+3)

@rak1507 bot are equally easy in mod n :)

@ngn .. while the multiplicative identities are all "1"

but on paper, the first one is easier, unless you think that the second one should be simplified before expanding, in which case you're advocating for keeping things between 0 and n

3:06 PM

I'm advocating for always keeping in mind the whole set it represents, as any other notion will lead to confusion at some point.

I'd love to see a separate types in langages for doing modular arithmetic

@flawr sagemath has separate types

All arithmetic is mod 2**64 already

@pxeger cough python cough haskell cough...

@rak1507 oh I didn't know! Do you use sagemath a lot?

@flawr sagecell.sagemath.org/…

@flawr what should happen when you add two numbers with different moduli?

3:11 PM

@flawr yes, very frequently for cryptography stuff

@ngn the fabric of space and time should rip open and devour our whole universe

@ngn it should error (like sage)

@rak1507 if one modulus is a multiple of the other, there could be a meaningful answer

yeah, that works in sage

could a result make sense modulo the lcm of the two summands?

caird coinheringaahing

3:15 PM

@ngn Add the moduli, see what happens :P

@flawr yes! that would make sense

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's not how it works, that's not how any of it works! get out!

@flawr Now that's a kind of error I haven't seen in a while :P

caird coinheringaahing

@flawr But it could work like that :P Math is just choosing the most convenient interpretation for symbols :P a + b could mean that we double a b times, then subtract 7, but that's not as useful as defining it to be addition :P

CMC: Given integers a and b, double a b times, then subtract 7

Redwolf Programs

a=>b=>a*2**b-7

3:19 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing caird's language, 1 byte: +

\a b->(iterate(2*)a!!b)-7

@RedwolfPrograms lol imagine using math

7-⍨⊣×2*⊢

@cairdcoinheringaahing elliptic curve arithmetic does something as (seemingly) ridiculous as that

_*Math.pow(2,_)-7

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Damn, that's even shorter than Jelly :P

4 bytes in Jelly

3:20 PM

@ngn good old point addition

got a 4-byter in jelly too

0fd77b9ec1327eebf9a17dacefb7d46e

bruteforceable

@cairdcoinheringaahing with 1indexing, shouldn't booleans be 1=true and 2=false? they are just the field Z/Z2

ok if i really cared i'd use something more secure the point is to not spoil :p

lol

caird coinheringaahing

3:22 PM

@hyper-neutrino I got 4d113310e7ce0e18df8f8a033e300f54

(assuming we're using md5 hashes)

For anyone intersted in the elliptic curve addition, allow me to promote my challenge from a while ago codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/75786/24877

I'd love to see some more answers:)

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn I'm not using 1 indexing for boolean arithmetic :P

oh, there's another solution? will try to find this lol

@flawr trivial in sage

caird coinheringaahing

@flawr I remember porting that to Mathjax, took a couple of hours :P

3:23 PM

@rak1507 feel free to add it:)

nah, builtins are boring :P

caird coinheringaahing

@flawr I tried to give it a go in Jelly, but it involved a lot of variable handling, which Jelly really isn't good at

absolutely not!

if you can solve it using built ins this just means you got the right tool for the job!

I learned about less common features of many languages that way

caird coinheringaahing

The two different attitudes to builtins, demonstrated so succinctly :P

i find built-in only solutions boring and i usually will not upvote them and will just ignore them, but i don't hate on people who post them either, i just don't really care :P

i can't think of another way to solve this, lol (within 4 bytes i mean)

caird coinheringaahing

3:27 PM

@hyper-neutrino Spoiler

Oh, I see. Right, I just looked at how last_input worked the other day ಠ_ಠ

spoiler

caird coinheringaahing

Jelly's implicit inputs with ¡ and # are super useful :P

@hyper-neutrino Ah, right, bitshifting

i saw redwolf's a*2**b and was like "wait there's a built-in for this"

took me a bit (heh) of time to find it and then realized wait this is just bitshift by definition

add=lambda p,c,P,Q:(E:=EllipticCurve(GF(p),c))(P)+E(Q)

due to precedence, a=>b=>(a<<b)-7 in JS is no shorter than a=>b=>a*2**b-7

caird coinheringaahing

3:30 PM

Wait, why does - have a higher precedence than <<?

Redwolf Programs

<< has a super low precedence for some reason

That's true in other (C-lke) languages too, maybe it's because < also has low precedence?

Redwolf Programs

At least it's not as bad as | and &

Oh yeah, | is higher than &, isn't it? That always trips me up

Redwolf Programs

0x40 & 0x44 == 0x40 is 0

It's awful for almost everything

3:33 PM

lol that's silly

i can understand boolean logic operators being lower than equality

but equality should be lower than any operations that apply to the items being compared lol

caird coinheringaahing

= should have pretty much the lowest precedence

@user nvm I was wrong

@cairdcoinheringaahing It does

who invented the terms "high precedence" and "low precedence"? "tightly binding" and "loosely binding" are so much clearer

Redwolf Programs

Citation needed

i find this clear too

high precedence has higher precedence than low precedence which means higher precedence precedes lower precedence and therefore happens first

caird coinheringaahing

3:35 PM

Just always eval LTR

RTL

always eval from the center outwards

2

Redwolf Programs

4 - 2 - 1 should be 1, not 3. LTR FTW.

@rak1507 is this sagemath?

@flawr yep

3:36 PM

The easiest solution here is to just avoid computations imo

that looks very nice, I should really look into it a little bit more

@rak1507 can you recommend a tutorial?

No need to worry about precedence or which -fix you're using or whatever if you're not doing math

it's basically python with a billion mathsy builtins, you could have a look at this I guess doc.sagemath.org/html/en/tutorial

It also does some preprocessing iirc

@user cough haskell cough :P

3:38 PM

God, those precedence rules are crazy

but useful!

@user yes, human, they are

the operator with the largest right argument gets evaluated first

TIL ngn is the one true God

Redwolf Programs

Randomized precendence

3:39 PM

@flawr They're great for DSLs, but I really prefer uniformity for normal stuff

imagine a 2d language where you could define associativity and precedence in multiple directions

Or a multidimensional language

Using polar coordinates or whatever the analogue is for more than 2 dimensions

Redwolf Programs

Average the results of every possible interpretation. 4 + 1 ** 2 is 15.

caird coinheringaahing

@flawr Pretty sure Jellyfish works on a similar system to that

Btw here's a great question that has to do with operator precedence, and I'm ~~not~~ just saying that because I made it

@RedwolfPrograms Why use a simple mean when you can do it the xkcd way?

Redwolf Programs

3:42 PM

That's not even close to practical, though. Imagine if one of the possiblities is negative!

43 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

Numbers were never meant to go below 1. "Nothing" as a number? "Negative" values? Complex?? Bah, return to normalcy :P

This is a cool operator precedence question, shame it doesn't have many answers

Redwolf Programs

I saw that one the other day

Unfortunately

God, please smite rak1507

caird coinheringaahing

Kicking now... :P

3:43 PM

damn. i clicked.

Redwolf Programs

hovers over kick-mute button

ninja'd :(

hovers over suspend button (for legal reasons that's a joke)

lol

@rak1507 It's official, you've rickrolled God ^^^^^

Redwolf Programs

Is that two dozen people in the TNB?

3:44 PM

Yay, activity!

depends how you define 'people'

7

@rak1507 The Turing Test, of course

Redwolf Programs

I thought this was a turing test. I'm a bot.

does the rickroll count if you close youtube before the page renders?

caird coinheringaahing

Yes, the aim is to get people to click the link

3:52 PM

yeah, no getting out of it :P

sudo echo '0.0.0.0 www.youtube.com' >>/etc/hosts

I would like to inform you of my superiority: I did not fall for the rickroll

pxeger has failed the test

@pxeger it's only a matter of time :)

Any reasonable human would have clicked the link

4:00 PM

reasonable ∩ in the TNB = {}

hi everyone

i think it would be reasonable to hover the link first, given the nature of this room :P

coincidence: as soon as i came, two users flied out of the room :P

so my calculations say that no reasonable humans would click the link

@Wezl lol

caird coinheringaahing

4:01 PM

Clearly the best Turing test is to show the test taker a rickroll link. Humans won't click on it, bots will

@cairdcoinheringaahing how we would understand that link is a "rickroll"?

Nick Kennedy posted an answer to the lucky factors question and I'm too scared to try and read it

help pls

caird coinheringaahing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

2

It's that link :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing Not very subtle.

:P

its automatically got converted to text link FYI

caird coinheringaahing

4:04 PM

@Razetime I haven't even tried, it's crazy :P

guy is so good at writing big jelly programs

caird coinheringaahing

I tried just parsing it into the links, and got lost halfway through

¥@¥ƊƲƬ

Just, what?

that's like 5 joins lmao

You know it's a complicated answer when even Jelly experts don't understand it :P

maybe I should make a jelly chain-rule visualizer if one doesn't exist :P

4:07 PM

@hyper-neutrino Sorry to bother you, but could you please change my username back to Wasif (only here in PPCG)

@programmer365 done, though your parent is still SO

@hyper-neutrino jellyballs doesn't have one afaik so this'd be epic

and probably would get a lot more newbies into jelly

totients in k

caird coinheringaahing

Ok, I think I managed to parse the links

@ngn wow, that is evil

caird coinheringaahing

4:09 PM

2ịŻ‘ɼ»2$‘¤ị,ḟm¥@¥ƊƲƬ is one link, Ṫċ¥Ðḟ is another, ⁸ and Ḣ

@ngn wow high quality stuff here

monad chain rules are 0,2; 2,0; 2,1; 2; 1 right?

Redwolf Programs

:o I just learned I can count comp. sci classes as foreign language credits

caird coinheringaahing

2,1; 0,2; 2,0; 2; 1

Try it online!

ok

4:10 PM

@RedwolfPrograms LOL what

Redwolf Programs

Imma drop Latin II in a heartbeat if that's still an option

caird coinheringaahing

That;s it, but with brackets around the links

how does that make any sense

Redwolf Programs

I speak fluent JavaScript.

(I think it's to encourage people to take computer related classes)

@ngn brilliant

caird coinheringaahing

4:11 PM

The Ʋ can be swapped out for µ which (IMO) makes it slightly easier to read

oh wait, is 2ịŻ‘ɼ»2$‘¤ one nilad?

@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah, way easier :P

now you say that, it's obvious!

@RedwolfPrograms ?

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino No, ‘ɼ»2$‘ is one nilad

I should really get my husk answer working, now that Leo proved its correctness

caird coinheringaahing

4:11 PM

But it's part of the three-chain formed by Ɗ

@RedwolfPrograms Uncaught SyntaxError: Unexpected identifier

@ngn It took me a minute to realize how I'd been rickrolled, because I didn't remember opening that tab :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing wait, why is that

like why does ¤ stop there

caird coinheringaahing

@Razetime The question has nothing to do with prime factors, so I'm not sure how it's correct

how does that k rickroll work?

caird coinheringaahing

4:13 PM

@hyper-neutrino ‘ɼ is a nilad, then followed by 2 monads »2$ and ‘, so it's an LCC

@Wasif setTimeout(_=>location='https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ',2000) :)

wait how is that a nilad

oh no obfuscated code

that's truly brilliant

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino ɼ always forms a niladic chain

he just changed the source of the editor

I hope no one was actually doing anything in ngn/k at that point :P

4:14 PM

wait hold up. i'm stupid

i was getting it confused with ṛ

caird coinheringaahing

:P

@ngn chinese remainder theorem should apply

time to resign from jelly and return to being a java golfer

@Neil i should have thought of that

@ngn echo '0.0.0.0 www.youtube.com' | sudo tee -a /etc/hosts

4:19 PM

@Neil what's the advantage?

actually works

Redwolf Programs

Oh, turns out although Texas recognizes comp. sci classes as foreign language, most colleges don't

Including the ones I want to go to

caird coinheringaahing

I feel like there's some joke about Texans not understanding other languages here :P

does anyone have an idea how to search for answer with language "///" in PPCG

Redwolf Programs

Maybe \/

caird coinheringaahing

4:21 PM

@Wasif Use the SEDE

escaping applies to search filters too?

@Neil hm.. mine worked too (i'm using freebsd)

Redwolf Programs

@Wasif No, ignore me

there's something I really want to make as a challenge, but it forms quite a core part of the solution to one of my apl competition problems

very frustrating

@cairdcoinheringaahing thats like using an atom bomb to kill a mosquito

Redwolf Programs

4:22 PM

Use the force

Sweep the answers off the site and see it in your mind

@Neil ah.. it worked because my "hosts" file is a symlink to a file owned my ordinary user. so, you're right

Redwolf Programs

user image

@RedwolfPrograms no backslash dosen't work too

Redwolf Programs

@RedwolfPrograms KotH controller color scheme

Any feedback?

caird coinheringaahing

@Wasif The problem is that /// is in a decent number of URLs (especially Pip TIO URLs) but here you go

4:30 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing thanks!

@cairdcoinheringaahing Can't you search for # [///]?

huh, not sure why searching for K85JLM5ILf7 doesn't work

(the encoding for /// TIO links)

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger Good idea, trying now

@Wasif Much better search

Searches for ///</a>, which is typically found in headers

New Sandboxed Posts

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Challenge Statement The goal of this challenge is to build the 5 state Infinite Time Turing machine that takes the longest to halt. The rest of this challenge is some definitions to help you. Infinite Ordinals In this section I will introduce the concept of transfinite ordinals in a somewhat info...

caird coinheringaahing

Could a mod (@hyper-neutrino @WheatWizard) unfreeze this room please?

Redwolf Programs

4:38 PM

Adding new features to OSP?

caird coinheringaahing

Couple of bug tests

@WheatWizard Thanks!

May I say I love OSP's avatar

Redwolf Programs

Anyone else think web safe base 64 should be the default, not the +// one?

i agree

meh

caird coinheringaahing

4:41 PM

@pxeger Thank hyper :P

I think anyone who designs a system that can't handle all characters perfectly fine is an idiot

It's the URL specification's fault that it can't handle + and /

Redwolf Programs

It can, they just mean other things

I think URIs could be much better, but I think allowing arbitrary strings of bytes is a bad idea

IMO: http:com.redwolfprograms.blog:2020-01-10 would be the best format. A proto: (http, ws, data, ...), a domain with the TLD first, then additional information (basically everything after the ? in URIs)

I think having subdomains and paths as separate things are sort of redundant

That means anything other than : is fine in the data part, and the format would be up to the site owner

. and : are also blue, which is a nice color for punctuation marks

what's /

@RedwolfPrograms colon is the best punctuation mark by far

Redwolf Programs

Paths and subdomains would be merged. chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/240 is pointless; com.stackexchange.chat.rooms.240 is better

URIs can't seem to decide if more important information should go first or last

This format is easier to parse (both by a computer and a human), making it harder to do something like http://bank.evil.com/login

4:53 PM

subpaths are hidden if your traffic is monitored

someone can see chat.stackexchange.com but not /rooms/240

Redwolf Programs

I'd just put the room number in the data part. http:com.stackexchange.chat:240

(with whatever format needed for other stuff)

Paths and subdomains have a few differences sure, but I don't think it's a necessary differentiation.

TIL clicking the word "today" next to "active" takes you to the most recent activity

Should I start on a userscript to switch back to the current fonts?

37

Q: We're switching to system fonts on May 10, 2021

TL;DR We’re shipping system fonts as our default font stack. We plan to do this on May 10th, 2021. What? We’re planning on specifying system fonts on Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange Network. On macOS and iOS, you’ll see things set in San Francisco. On Windows, you’ll see Segoe. On Android y...

discussion featured design stack-exchange fonts

I like Roboto, but it's not really very SE

5:09 PM

@RedwolfPrograms noscript (a firefox extension) can block any custom fonts

Redwolf Programs

No, I want it to be the current ones. Removing custom fonts is what they're doing.

@RedwolfPrograms then why don't you make "roboto" your default font?

Redwolf Programs

> I like Roboto, but it's not really very SE

Roboto is my default

@RedwolfPrograms just curious if you don't mind me asking, does font affect the color in which you see words/symbols at all, and also do you see symbols such as (for example) カタカナ in a particular color?

Redwolf Programs

I think the font doesn't really affect it, because it's more about associating the character itself with something (typically color) rather than its appearance.

It's more like the idea of e is yellow, rather than e itself (not sure if that makes sense :p)

5:13 PM

i think i can sort of get the idea behind that :P

do symbols/characters that don't have any meaning to you also have a color then?

Redwolf Programs

Not really, I think I sort of have to be familiar with it first. If I were to read them a bunch of times I might start to associate them with a color.

ah. that's very interesting. well thanks for satisfying my curiosity lol :P

@RedwolfPrograms "We’re leaving serif fonts alone so those will stay as Georgia, Cambria, Times New Roman, Times, and then serif as a fallback." - i don't understand what they are doing. wouldn't "leaving them alone" mean just use "serif"?

Redwolf Programs

No, they mean leaving them how they currently are I think

the current --ff-serif on math.SE is Georgia,Times New Roman,Times,serif

Redwolf Programs

5:17 PM

Math.SE has a custom font stack

They're leaving those alone

caird coinheringaahing

CMQ: Should OSP leave tags in the links (it'd look like Solve the halting problem for \c^/[^/\]*/[^/\]*/[^/\]*$c code-golf halting-problem), or remove them (so Solve the halting problem for \c^/[^/\]*/[^/\]*/[^/\]*$c)?

Redwolf Programs

Wrap them in []

actually that's probably the base on all sites and then some sites manually override it

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms That breaks the links unfortunately

in OSP testing, 5 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

[testing [koth] in links](https://example.com)

Redwolf Programs

We should totally set up a custom font, just to revert the font size and line height changes a while back

Giant h1s kind of ruin our answer formatting IMO

5:19 PM

@ngn most of the fonts currently in use are sans-serif, so that (and monospace/code fonts) is only what the system fonts are changing in

@hyper-neutrino christianity and math have visibly different fonts even though their --ff-serif in the CSS body{ block is the same

me: replies to myself
*gets ping sound*
also me: surprised pikachu face

2

Redwolf Programs

Same thing happens to me every time I self-ping :p

caird coinheringaahing

"Ooh, who's pinging me? Oh, yeah, duh"

Redwolf Programs

help i was messign with testing other fonts on se and now none of them look right

ah, markdown doesn't work in multi-line but multi-line doesn't work on the starboard so the markdown ends up working on the starboard

5:20 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing How about: Solve the halting problem for \c^/[^/\\]*/[^/\\]*/[^/\\]*$c code-golf halting-problem

So extract the tags and write them separately?

but if i add \ to fix the starboard it will probably break the message itself ಠ_ಠ

Redwolf Programs

@pxeger That looks bad imo

oops, didn't notice OSP testing was gallery. may have just joined and sent messages. unintentional 11 moment

caird coinheringaahing

It's only gallery so that I don't have to deal with Lyxal and the like spamming it :P

How about: Solve the halting problem for \c^/[^/\]*/[^/\]*/[^/\]*$c [code-golf] [halting-problem]?

(Found by hyper to work)

+1

Redwolf Programs

5:24 PM

Looks good

caird coinheringaahing

    prev = title
    title = replace(title)
    while prev != title:
            prev = title
            title = replace(title)

God I wish Python had do...while loops :/

Redwolf Programs

That's not Pythonic! It's too sensible!

while true and then break at the end

@hyper-neutrino yeah, because structured programming is so 90s /s

Redwolf Programs

Any language that supports functions not being TCO'd is a crime. JS and Python are both guilty, but at least there was an attempt for JS.

5:29 PM

@pxeger i see. so "leaving them alone" = "not changing the way we're messing with them" :)

using walrus operator you can set x=0 and then do while (x := x + 1) == 1 or ___

Redwolf Programs

I don't see why it's called the walrus operator when we could follow this precedent

@RedwolfPrograms duktape ftw

Redwolf Programs

user image

No thanks, I don't think I will...

yeah i hate python having no tco

that and its lambda syntax are probably two the things i hate most about python

caird coinheringaahing

5:35 PM

Arrow operators are both nicer and less readable, so I get why they went with lambda instead

Redwolf Programs

"Oh no, we need lambdas but the due date is tomorrow!"
"No worries, I got it."

caird coinheringaahing

Python does (kinda) try for readable code

Redwolf Programs

=> or -> are both more readable IMO

Yeah, lambda is so readable to absolutely anyone, there's no need for any experience with formal functional programming

Redwolf Programs

Which is better, Hi FULL STOP I am a programmer FULL STOP I use JS STOP or Hi. I'm a programmer. I use JS.

Except FULL STOP and STOP are in another language.

5:38 PM

Well obviously that would have to be Hi EXCLAMATION MARK I am a programmer FULL STOP I use JS STOP

Redwolf Programs

Fixed

But backwards

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms OSP's been updated, feel free to update it on your server when you can

Redwolf Programs

I'll do that tonight

Someone remind me if I forget :p

@RedwolfPrograms if you forget, update OSP on your server tonight

Redwolf Programs

Ugh I've got an unimplented language I so want to answer a specific question with :/

5:46 PM

then just implement it. :p

Redwolf Programs

It's a tough language to implement though :/

6:15 PM

is it the one that guesses what you want?

Redwolf Programs

No, it's an old idea of mine

Redwolf Programs

6:41 PM

I've spent probably two hours today designing the color scheme for my KotH's controller lol

bruh :P

Redwolf Programs

Here's what I've got so far

what does each color represent?

Redwolf Programs

Top: Grass, water, dirt

i have no idea what h-g is about btw lol. supposedly hunting and gathering...

Redwolf Programs

6:42 PM

Next: Grain (grown / growing / just planted)

Next: Bush / Tree / Rock

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino IIRC it's mini-Minecraft :P

Redwolf Programs

Final: Berry bush / copper ore / iron ore

this sounds like it's gonna get complicated pretty fast xd

Redwolf Programs

It is complicated, the goal is for it to almost require specialization within tribes

caird coinheringaahing

I'm kinda worried that you're going to put all this effort in, and it's going to sort of "collapse". Like, you'll get a few bots, and some interest, but nowhere near enough that it deserves :/

Fingers crossed it won't, but I've seen that happen to a large number of challenges

Redwolf Programs

6:45 PM

Same. I'm putting in a lot of work to make it look uncomplicated (visually), and I'm going to put a ton of work into the controller to make it ridiculously simple to use

It'll have auto-updating with the API, and you shouldn't even have to touch any code in order to run it.

I might also put a little note at the top saying it's intentionally a bit more complicated than most KotHs, and that bot makers aren't intended to read through all twenty pages of specification :p

CMQ: Has anyone ever found a broken link on any of Google's official pages? I feel like they're very prudent with setting up redirects, but I wonder if this is really true?

Redwolf Programs

Yes

Don't remember to what though

Might've been google groups related

loads, especially when looking for obscure old stuff

@pxeger Yes, I have.

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Fun fact, the CR election was the closest mod election ever, on the entire network :P

6:57 PM

lol, nice :P

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The Nineteenth Byte

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