The Nineteenth Byte

00:14

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Count up to 21, Plz Halp I Need $$$ Again, <strong>Is this number part of a Collatz prime sequence?</strong>

hyper-neutrino

01:49

Would like to bring attention to: Should we have chat events, and if so, how should we do them?

8

it seems that the monthly mini-golf is something that by consensus (+11/-0) we want to do; the esolangs showcase has some popularity but only +5/-0, so no opposition but not as much attention

though we don't quite have a consensus (+2/-3) on whether or not to host it elsewhere (I agree that a chat event for golfing is more on-topic to TNB than TNB usually is, though)

Lyxal

@OldSandboxPosts html tags ftw

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Just an FYI, my opinion on that is not a "hard" opinion. I personally think they'd be better outside of TNB, but I don't particularly mind either way :P

Redwolf Programs

02:04

Now that I've sort of stopped working on Ash, I'm not really sure what project to start on next

With school basically over, I've got 35 hours a week to work on anything I want, I just don't know what that would be :p

Lyxal

Vyxal but in JS?

caird coinheringaahing

Answer with Ash a bit, then realise how buggy it is (just extrapolating from my own lang dev experiences) then work on Ash v2 :P

New Main Posts

2

Q: Apply at indices

Given: a blackbox function \$f : \mathbb N \to \mathbb N\$, a list of positive integers \$L\$, and a list of indices \$I\$, apply \$f(x)\$ to the elements of \$L\$ at the indices specified in \$I\$. For example, \$f(x) = x^2, L = [7, 6, 3, 9, 1, 5, 2, 8, 4]\$ and \$I = [3, 5, 8]\$ (using 1 inde...

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing No, I'm not finishing Ash.

Lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing Stopped working in this context is more "most likely abandoned before completion"

ninja'd

caird coinheringaahing

02:07

I'm currently writing Add++ v6, because my code for v5.11 is so awful/spaghetti, and full of bugs, that I couldn't stand it :P

@RedwolfPrograms Then finish Ash, maybe? :P

Redwolf Programs

It's my first attempt at a golfing language, and my initial vision is so different from my current views on how a good golfing would work that it'd end up as a horrible mess

caird coinheringaahing

Yes

That's how all first attempts at golfing langs end up, that's the point.

Lyxal

case in point

Redwolf Programs

I'm planning something, but I know it'll be a super long term project and I'd rather work on some smaller things like Hunter-Fatherer for now

caird coinheringaahing

You create a horrible mess, then learn from it enough to create a less horrible mess, and so on until it converges to a decent language

4

Redwolf Programs

02:09

How do I misspell that every time...

Lyxal

Fatherer? erm

Redwolf Programs

Hunter-Gatherer

I...that'd be a very different KotH

Lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms Fatherer... isn't that a bit nsfw?

Redwolf Programs

I guess my general list of things to finish by summer break is the KotH, ranking system, and CGCC stuff like the blog, bots, and guild of reviewers

After that I'll work on my game for a little while, then maybe around July or August I can start on golfing language stuff again

I'm seriously considering making a non-golfing language first though

caird coinheringaahing

How do you plan that for ahead for such specific projects?

Redwolf Programs

02:12

Too much optimism

caird coinheringaahing

I have a vague idea of programming projects I want to try at some point in the near or far future

Redwolf Programs

Same, but I feel better when I pretend I know what I'm doing :p

caird coinheringaahing

For example, a (non-trivial) programming language, interpreted in Jelly

Redwolf Programs

I'll probably start work on some completely unrelated project a week from now and in October I'll remember I still needed to write my part of the blog :p

Oh, I need to work on Generic Review Tool a bit as well

caird coinheringaahing

Pretty sure we'll have the first blog post up in time for Winter Bash :P

Redwolf Programs

02:16

This might not be the best time to have tried to start the blog, since I wasn't able to do any work that week because of school, and nobody really knew what we were supposed to be doing :p

Maybe in a few days we can get as many of us in chat as possible to try to work out who's writing what, a summary of what each part will look like, and some deadlines for when they should be done

caird coinheringaahing

Fingers crossed

Lyxal

I might not be able to blog until late June/early july now

Redwolf Programs

:(

Lyxal

I'm glad Vyxal got LoTM when it did, because June's a busy month with exams and final assessments and all

caird coinheringaahing

TBF at some point, I might just say "screw it" and write the first one myself. I've made ~25 languages, so I can probably write a decent amount about language dev

But, I don't want to prevent others who might be just as interested, so I'll wait until a breaking point :P

DLosc

02:23

@cairdcoinheringaahing I started reading the spec for your recent question and thought, "That's got to be a builtin in Jelly and/or APL." Got to the last paragraph--yep, called it!

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc That's where I got the inspiration :P

DLosc

I think I've noticed that as a pattern in APL programming especially: "Here's a list of values, and another list with some indices. Do something with the values at those indices."

(Spoken as someone who never got very far with learning either APL or Jelly, but reads explanations of code-golf answers from time to time)

A username

02:51

I need a repetitive song lyric for the song composing thing - any ideas?

user

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! :P

A username

@user Sure.

caird coinheringaahing

Kirin J Callinan - Big Enough (Official Video) ft. Alex Cameron, Molly Lewis, Jimmy Barnes

►

A username

Wait, there's an actual song with that lyric???

hyper-neutrino

i approve

A username

03:04

My score is 19 97/225 because I've posted just so many answers :P

Lyxal

03:28

@Ausername you didn't know?

okie

04:45

The Coconut Song - (Da Coconut Nut)

►

A username

@okie I'll probably do that next time.

okie

:(

A username

There aren't any more answers that I haven't continued off.

programmer365

05:12

sup

Lyxal

yes

programmer365

How to find questions in PPCG which don't contain any python submission

Any nice search filter?

-"Python" is:question dosent work

hyper-neutrino

you may need a SEDE for this

programmer365

Oh no

okie

@hyper-neutrino that sounds like something from the future

hyper-neutrino

05:16

data.stackexchange.com quite the opposite, it updates every sunday so it's usually from the past :P

okie

06:02

@programmer365 modify this

Newly Featured Questions

06:30

7

Q: Machine Epsilon

Machine epsilon is an important floating point number to know when doing numerical calculations. One way to understand it is when this relation 1 + machine_epsilon > 1 does not hold. One (iterative) way to extract it is executing a small program like the one above: 10 EPS=1 20 EPS=EPS/2 30 EP...

code-golf number floating-point

hyper-neutrino

> Thencequentlyforthupon

Lyxal

07:47

Yes

programmer365

@Lyxal yes to whom?

Lyxal

Hn

StackMeter

I'm going to create a golfing language

@Lyxal

give me help

pls

programmer365

@StackMeter yay!

a new golflang

what will be its name

StackMeter

containing no letters

@programmer365 Anti-Alpha

ophact

07:51

Hello, just want to ask a very quick question: a user suggested [bit.ly/3nQ60Mu](this) -2 byte suggestion on "Help me count the Omer", is this acceptable? Can we have an anonymous function as the main answer doing the work and a few named helper functions at the bottom?

programmer365

@ophact well i can't access the bit.ly link

ophact

it leads to a TIO

StackMeter

numbers are a thing in anti-alpha though

ophact

just copy paste the link

Adám

@ophact Yes, as long as all are counted.

Here:
https://tio.run/##jZNfT9swFMXf8ynuQ1ETYdKxP4CqpRGTtiGNdUg8AlLc5DZ1ce3IdshCW746u04KDPayFzdx7j3nd4/dJb/jNjeicgdKF/g4Tx7Dc3bKLtk0SibZYD3dQsHbwfosnEZbep0cpRkDxVcoWxisHx7C6eg42kKDeOurdhu0Q8V7x2nW/byI7FFxNh4O@yUIBuvQJe@izeY8XvEqDJEJMhZJ8iHF2GAleY7hKB6VLE8m4eg63sDmmo1ih9aFeZS68f6@i5JkmmbrwTrfkm4ejTGKl1qoDLLYVlI4//BafnpwmGZXg/WLyX3SqZM4Gw6j7c1gfd@7YEQoVgqqOTiMevYXg26G07/V/djksEvC975CaJikIkkIe8c7iOYtxOZfiiZKm7cUzTPFGMd@qNGTIm5vXiCvVU95eeXROtvx0c0WhIJu8/NJ@m48nXw8SY/GO@qbbZAFZ0mdTOrJYTq0QzJ8zLWyWmIsdRnOw@y7LmAm0VooDbEzmNMKdiEUQm1hrg3eoYmDH0o3gNy4BTS8tQwsv0MLXEq6R06QaBxcGC4sQoW6kgjn2hSsK9htVN3nO…

ophact

07:54

@Adám thanks, that is very much appreciated. I can probably golf my code a little further now.

Lyxal

@StackMeter so there's absolutely no letters. Hmm. You'll probably need extra Unicode then

Do you want it Prefix, Postfix or infix?

Razetime

@StackMeter what will you use in their place?

programmer365

@StackMeter also it is stack based or stackless?

StackMeter

08:34

To answer all your questions, 1) Infix, because it's the only thing that makes sense, 2) There's surely enough symbols to uniquely map every one to a letter, 3) No, because I'm going to implement variables, and I'm not sure those two go together.

yeah there's 32 symbols we have more than enough

Adám

@StackMeter Sounds APL-like.

StackMeter

@Adám cool

but I literally don-t know how to process infix

Unrelated String

well it depends on what kind of infix

programmer365

@StackMeter transpiling would be nice

Unrelated String

one option is to use a ton of tiers of precedence but it's not hard to tell why that isn't a very popular approach

programmer365

08:46

assuming you are writing interpreter in common languages like Python or Javascript
then you can easily trasnpile infix expressions

Unrelated String

i don't think python lets you define new infix operators if that's what you mean

StackMeter

@programmer365 well I do know Python, so I might try and transpile infixes, because this is being written in Python (I'm not learning a language to make a language, when it is unnecessary)

programmer365

if you want to discuss it more let's open a chat room on it

Unrelated String

if you want to do a precedence based system you can also just
use operator precedence parsing

but again i would not recommend a precedence based system

at least not as the core of your syntax

if you feel like rolling with it and seeing what you can accomplish then go for it

but yeah

StackMeter

@programmer365 sure

programmer365

08:58

@StackMeter then hurry up open it

StackMeter

how do I open a room

programmer365

go to site rooms and click open a new room and follow the instructions

Unrelated String

open rooms list

csroll to bottom

programmer365

ah I want to be changed back to Wasif
but i cannot change my username in next 30 days :-(

StackMeter

it done

programmer365

09:03

nice

now all discussion could be done there

Adám

09:33

Anti-Alpha: The Beginning

where stupid begins

A username

@programmer365 Oh, that's who you are. I was wondering... Welcome back, by the way!

Hi!

user41805

10:09

@ngn why do you have to emulate it?

Anush

12:37

in bash, is there a clever trick to copy all quiz-h.* files to their corresponding quiz-i.*? I feel I saw someone use brackets to do this somehow

Adám

In shell, I think you can "just do it" with copy quiz-h.* quiz-i.*

Anush

do you mean cp?

or is that a different shell?

cp quiz-{h,i}.tex does one file

Adám

Windows shell.

Anush

ah.. I know nothing of windows :)

Adám

You can get PowerShell for UX, but I don't know if you can get the good old shell.

hyper-neutrino

12:42

Okay, I shouldn't have let you guys do it in the first place, but please don't do it a second time. It's not really that funny and it's confusing and therefore disruptive especially when you talk about it in chat that much.

Adám

@hyper-neutrino That's why I spoke up.

hyper-neutrino

→ 94 messages moved to Trash

@Adám Yes, thank you for doing so.

I have "ruined the fun" in place of caird while he is absent. :P

okie

@hyper-neutrino the fun is ruined

Adám

@Anush Oh, Wine should be able to run cmd.exe ― there you go! ;-)

Anush

@Adám I want a linux answer! :)

actually a bash answer

Lyxal

12:53

@hyper-neutrino this is so sad

But could you please do a profile refresh for me?

user

@hyper-neutrino What exactly happened here?

Lyxal

What we did that one time but not last time

Wezl

13:05

@cairdcoinheringaahing my experience completely agrees

also good morning and why does all the conversation while I was away fit on two screens?

ngn

@user41805 good question

hyper-neutrino

@Wezl because I trashed 94 messages

Lyxal

Can I at least keep the meme I posted?

As in can I post it here again. It seems somewhat relevant

ngn

@Anush for f in quiz-h.*; do mv $f ${f/h./i.}; done

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Mobile makes it difficult to trash chat messages :P

hyper-neutrino

13:19

mobile makes it difficult to do anything lol

caird coinheringaahing

Amen :P

Redwolf Programs

Morning everyone!

Razetime

ah yes, my birthplace

4

Redwolf Programs

Bunch of spam flags in russian lol

hyper-neutrino

what the hell is happening

Redwolf Programs

13:29

> But from checks in the queue, the participation of a person is still required, and not an autoclicker ass.

hyper-neutrino

I don't trust google translate enough to decide based on it

Redwolf Programs

Same

It looks like they're discussing fake reviews, copied off someone else with an autoclicker

Definitely invalid I think, but I won't vote since I don't speak russian

Looks like they've been cleared up anyway

Anush

@ngn cp not mv! :)

@ngn that is nice though. Better than for f in quiz-h.*; do cp $f quiz-i${f#quiz-h}; done

ngn

@Anush oops

Anush

but is it the most golfed is the question?

ngn

13:33

probably not

Anush

I would pose it as a CMC but I am not sure what command line languages there are

Adám

@ngn How dare you write code that isn't the most golfed‽

Anush

@Adám :)

CMC (Linux command line.) copy all quiz-h.* files to their corresponding equivalent quiz-i.* counterparts.

ngn

@Adám coming from you, this sounds offensive

user

@Anush VTC Because this question is off-topic here. CGCC is not for general programming problems; you may want to try Stack Overflow :P

Adám

13:36

@ngn Really? I was sure you'd get my tone right.

@Anush wine cmd copy quiz-h.* quiz-i.* or somesuch ;-)

Anush

@user :)

@Adám nice answer :)

@user the score is still bytes!

ngn

@Adám do i have to remind you what you&dialog did with my submission to the apl competition 2 years ago?

Wezl

what's the meta consensus on allowing questions that have a practical use?

Redwolf Programs

They're allowed but recommended to avoid

Unless they're actually interesting

user

@Wezl They're probably allowed, as long as you're obviously not just posting a homework problem

'Interesting question' trumps 'homework problem' imo

Adám

13:39

Yeah, I'd think it'd be allowed. Plenty of challenges are potentially useful.

Redwolf Programs

Plus "practical" and "golfed" are two things you will never get in the same answer lol

Adám

Like convert TIO post to CMC answer, and helping me count the Omer.

user

Unless you do atomic golf or fastest code

@Adám Lemme go VTC that :P

Wezl

(why do people take my questions seriously??)

caird coinheringaahing

Because you asked it with a serious tone :P

user

13:40

@Wezl Hmm, I'll have to think on that, as it's a rather complex matter.

Adám

@Wezl That's an off-topic question! VTC.

Redwolf Programs

I say we go straight for a question ban :p

user

@Adám I like that you put a "." even after "VTC"

Wezl

11 is the correct punctuation mark here though

user

@RedwolfPrograms You can go for a question ban if you want, I like the ability to ask questions

Redwolf Programs

13:42

I want to make a practical language. I have such a good idea for some features.

user

How about inputting and outputting erased implicit values?

Adám

@user I should collect all the times people have praised me for my consistent punctuation.

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms extensibility (ducks in case there are java people here (ducks in case they're offended by that parenthesis))

user

Java is literally the king of extensibility - we even have an "extends" keyword!

Redwolf Programs

OOP is for people too weak for imperative

user

13:44

?

Redwolf Programs

:p

user

OOP languages can also be imperative

Redwolf Programs

If you need any structure at all you're doing it wrong.

user

I'm not sure you can get Turing-completeness without data structures

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms OOP is for people too scared of Unicode to learn golf langs :P

Redwolf Programs

13:45

Turing completeness is for people who can't just do the computing beforehand and tell the computer the answer

4

Wezl

~~ OOP GOLF LANG TIME ~~

user

Who says you can't have an object-oriented golf lang?

@Wezl Gah, ninja'd

I'm gonna have to ask you ROs to leave now

caird coinheringaahing

I'm afraid I can't do that, ~~Dave~~ user

Redwolf Programs

→ 11 messages moved to Sandbox

Wezl

irc is the superior platform, and it doesn't have _built-in_ emphasis

ngn

13:55

@user41805 i thought there might be some argument from irreducible computation (computation for which there are no shortcuts, you just have to perform it), but maybe i'm wrong

Anush

I see my CMC got the same number of VTCs as answers

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Sorry, I don't get the reference

ngn

@RedwolfPrograms "попка" could mean "ass" or "supervisor" - i think it's the latter in this context

Redwolf Programs

I figured the translation was incorrect, yeah

pxeger

did you know Mozilla and Facebook use Mercurial instead of Git for most of their development?

user

14:00

@ngn The same word could mean "ass" or "supervisor"? Interesting...

Redwolf Programs

I would've marked them as not valid, but I do not trust Google Translate lol

user

@pxeger Why?

pxeger

@user Facebook says it scales better

engineering.fb.com/2014/01/07/core-data/…

Although they're now working on their own partially inter-compatible SCM system called Eden

github.com/facebookexperimental/eden

ngn

@user it's "supervisor" in criminal slang

user

Oh ok

@pxeger Pretty cool

caird coinheringaahing

14:05

@user It's from 2001: A Space Odessey

user

~~Always knew you were just a bot~~

Apparently I can't tell the difference between you and Wezl

Wezl

I _am_ Wezl :)

ngn

14:21

cmc: list of totients for natural numbers below n

(or up to n, if you prefer)

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Jelly, 3 bytes RÆṪ

Or ÆṪ€

Neil

@user Mercurial is easier to learn than git, although git is eventually renaming its commands to be more meaningful, so you don't have to use the same command to a) change current branch b) restore working tree files

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing builtins are valid but no fun

Neil

@user also git doesn't understand the concept of copies and renames very well, so it's hit and miss whether it will actually merge the right files together

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Jelly, 5 bytes gRċ1). How it works

Neil

14:26

it's so bad that in one big merge I had to go through and manually rename all of the affected files first

while in another merge I just exported to Mercurial and merged there instead

ngn

14:38

@cairdcoinheringaahing do you think jelly's R starting from 1 was a good choice?

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn Yeah. Personally, I prefer 1 indexing over 0 indexing, and R starting from 1 fits best with that

It can be a little cumbersome at times, but generally, it's better

Redwolf Programs

I prefer 0-indexing

it makes returning a falsy value annoying for find in string/array stuff, but I have a secret plan for my next golfing language

caird coinheringaahing

NGL I have the same view of "1 indexing vs 0 index" as "tabs vs spaces", "emacs vs vim" and every other "programming debate", which is: I'll use whatever's easiest for me, and I don't give a crap what other people use

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Redwolf Programs

Real programmers use 0.5 indexing, newlines for indentation, and write all their code in excel

One character per cell

Guarantees good monospacing

caird coinheringaahing

I take back what I said. This is the one truly correct way

flawr

14:47

@RedwolfPrograms new-lines for indentation?????

Wezl

Real Programmers don't indent of course https://github.com/kparc/kcc#indentation

flawr

zero-width-spaces please

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing FTFY: NGL I have the same view of "1 indexing vs 0 index" as "tabs vs spaces", "emacs vs vim" and every other "programming debate", which is: I'll use whatever's easiest for me, and ~~I don't give a crap what other people use~~ anyone else is wrong and should die

Redwolf Programs

Not 0x0a newlines, 0x85 NEL characters (from EBCDIC, included in Unicode)

ngn

1indexing is too painful for me. it's one of the reasons i never learnt jelly.

caird coinheringaahing

14:52

@ngn Painful is a view I've never heard before, how so?

ngn

always -1 +1 to correct things

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing because it hurts :D

ngn

in most cases it doesn't matter, the pain is in the small subset where it does

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn If the entire language is consistently designed in the indexing (0 or 1 or whatever), you generally don't need to do that a lot

Add++ uses both 1 and 0 indexing, depending on the command/mode, which is fun ಠ_ಠ

Wezl

disagree as a user of lua

ngn

14:54

@cairdcoinheringaahing fun? my experience with apl tells me otherwise

caird coinheringaahing

@ngn "fun", not actual fun :P

It's just another thing I'm adding to my list of "awful behaviour that I need to fix" for Add++

Wezl

add++++!

rak1507

APL using ⎕IO←1 for the competition problems is annoying

ngn

not sure which is worse (for me) - always starting from 1 or leaving it as a choice

caird coinheringaahing

@Wezl Add++ v6 :P

flawr

14:56

@Wezl well add++++ will obviously sometimes use 2-based indexing

rak1507

@ngn definitely leaving it as a choice imo

hyper-neutrino

0-indexing feels more right for practical purposes

1-indexing feels better when golfing

ngn

@hyper-neutrino and theoretical too

hyper-neutrino

well i mean practical as in not golfing i.e. actually useful situations lol

caird coinheringaahing

The mathematician in me prefers 1 indexing no matter what :P

hyper-neutrino

14:58

ever since i learned why 0-indexing makes more sense in terms of pointers it makes more sense :P

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing in maths the residue classes mod n are 0..n-1, not 1..n

rak1507

@cairdcoinheringaahing 0 indexing is nicer mathematically because of modular stuff

Redwolf Programs

^

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing in set theory n is literally the set {0,..,n-1}

Redwolf Programs

Unless you have a separate set of modulo-based builtins which do -1 and +1 before and after

hyper-neutrino

14:58

but since i usually golf in jelly 1-indexing makes sense when i'm thinking about how to do something with a total disregard for practicality, efficiency, or anything reasonable

caird coinheringaahing

Numbers were never meant to go below 1. "Nothing" as a number? "Negative" values? Complex?? Bah, return to normalcy :P

4

Wezl

grrrrr

ngn

@cairdcoinheringaahing 1 is just succ(0) and 0's existence is an axiom

flawr

@ngn I disagree, these classes are sets that ciontain them all and it doesn't matter what representative you choose!

Anti-Alpha: The Beginning

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