The Nineteenth Byte

StackMeter

7:00 PM

@RedwolfPrograms necessary follow-up: four bit prefixes

Neil

@pxeger you're right, I'm Neil, not JoKing

Wezl

@Neil *downvote*

Redwolf Programs

1100: Lower with , ; 1101: Title or title with `` ``; 1110: Upper; 1111: Reserved

StackMeter

@Neil where's that -10 button

@RedwolfPrograms why is 1111 reserved

caird coinheringaahing

CMQ: Is "gist" pronounced "jist" or "gist"? (soft/hard g)

pxeger

7:07 PM

"jist". There is no debate about this. Anyone disagreeing will be flagged (/s - please don't abuse flags)

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing nope

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing j-aye-st

caird coinheringaahing

@user hovers finger over "kick-mute" user

user

@pxeger Are you one of those people who say "Jit reppos"?

Wezl

I'd pronounce it with a soft g if I pronounced it

this is why G is also deprecated

StackMeter

7:09 PM

it's literally on wikipedia

pxeger

@user no! Git is git, and gist is gist. Etymologically and semantically unrelated words

@StackMeter what is?

user

@pxeger Exactly what I was saying. Git is pronounced with a hard G, as is gist

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms It's stopped reloading the page for me :(

pxeger

@user no. There is no reason why they have to be pronounced alike. Gist is /dʒɪst/ and Git is /gɪt/

StackMeter

@pxeger that gist is pronounced "j-EE-st"

also did @RedwolfPrograms crash or what

hasn't answered my question for a while

caird coinheringaahing

7:17 PM

Nah, you leave a room if you haven't been active in 15 minutes

StackMeter

fair enough

Redwolf Programs

7:32 PM

@StackMeter Had to head home from school

It's an early release day today for teacher training or something

1111 is reserved for future use

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Just means you can change your activity graph :P

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms ok

you should probably finish the wiki

Redwolf Programs

Actually I'm going to redo a big chunk of the string notation

I was originally planning on not having odd numbers of bits anywhere for some raisin, but now I reel eyes that's dumb

I started working on Ash because I thought it'd take like two weeks beginning to end and it's been four months and I'm still halfway done :|

hyper-neutrino

I pronounce gist with a J but git with a G

caird coinheringaahing

Same

hyper-neutrino

7:48 PM

i see nothing inherently more weird about being inconsistent here than with english in general when "general" is pronounced with a J and "forget" is pronounced with a G

Redwolf Programs

I do it the other way around

General and forjet

caird coinheringaahing

The most cursed thing to do to english is to swap the two pronunciations of "g" and the two of "c" :P

hyper-neutrino

sursed

6

user

@pxeger You realize I was joking, right?

And get that infernal IPA out of my face /s

Redwolf Programs

@user You weren't JoKing, you were user

pxeger

7:54 PM

@user it's not ok to joke about things as serious as mispronounciation

3

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms no you ruined it >:|

user

@pxeger Sorry

hyper-neutrino

> were - are they not user anymore o.O

user

RIP me, I guess

Redwolf Programs

Well they were and still are

caird coinheringaahing

7:56 PM

At some point in the past, user was user

In other news, every 60 seconds a minute passes in Africa :P

2

Redwolf Programs

Wouldn't were mean at some slice of the past they were?

user

> Here lies user. No idea who they were. Probably made a new account or something.

CMQ: Bad pickup lines?

caird coinheringaahing

@user I have a kinda inappropriate one :P

Implied NSFW joke, be warned

2

Redwolf Programs

You're an RO, you can do what you want :p

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's really bad lol

user

8:00 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing I mean, you could use code bowling instead

Redwolf Programs

But then it'd be---wait no it's still a bad pickup line :p

caird coinheringaahing

@user But we all prefer code golf here :P

Redwolf Programs

"Hey, do you like fastest-code..."

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yes, but I'm not sure we prefer [redacted] [redacted] :P

caird coinheringaahing

@user Hey, are you a Javascript coder, cause I really need this website coded, and I only know Python

user

8:03 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing That's a whole lot more offensive than the NSFW one :P

caird coinheringaahing

Also, where should the question mark go in the "Hey, are you ..., cause I ..." pickup lines?

user

@user Do you have a fever? 'Cause you look hot

@RedwolfPrograms That'd be good

@cairdcoinheringaahing See above

caird coinheringaahing

→ 7 messages moved to Trash

Redwolf Programs

@user "Do I have COVID or something? You don't smell as bad as usual."

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Please do not invite me to join Trash. I do not like dumpster diving.

caird coinheringaahing

8:05 PM

Funnily enough, it didn't invite me, despite me moving one of my messages

StackMeter

guys I have a question

user

You're already Trash /s

caird coinheringaahing

57 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

@user hovers finger over "kick-mute" user

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing maybe because then it would say "caird has invited you (caird) to Trash"

user

@StackMeter Is the answer 134 + "abcd"?

StackMeter

8:06 PM

no

user

How about 129.2512?

StackMeter

I want to do a challenge about causing an exception/error

hyper-neutrino

do you have something specific in mind?

caird coinheringaahing

I'd suggest not

StackMeter

in as few bytes as possible?

Wezl

8:07 PM

ok, what's the question

caird coinheringaahing

"exception" is a very vague term, not all languages error

user

What's the challenge about, specifically?

caird coinheringaahing

@StackMeter Python, 1 byte: any non-digit character aside from ; and #

StackMeter

@user the challenge is about forcing the program to quit before all code is executed

user

@StackMeter Oh ok, if the challenge is just "raise an exception," then I'd agree with caird

StackMeter

8:08 PM

so no-go then?

user

It's not very interesting imho

@StackMeter You might be able to introduce a twist and get it to work

hyper-neutrino

well, depends on exactly what you have in mind. if it's just "do any exception" that's really boring and probably won't bring many interesting solutions

caird coinheringaahing

Do we have [slowest-code] as a criteria? Longest time to finish, must be finite?

StackMeter

@cairdcoinheringaahing that makes sense

Redwolf Programs

Don't think so

user

8:10 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing That could be abused

Redwolf Programs

I was planning one

But I forgot

user

Just put in a big loop (unless you also make it irreducible)

StackMeter

but with code-golf included

caird coinheringaahing

Maybe longest finite execution time within 10 bytes?

Redwolf Programs

@user It'd be like bowling

user

8:10 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing That disqualifies too many languages

Redwolf Programs

You'd need other things to restrict it

@user Disagree

user

Yeah with restrictions it'd certainly be pretty cool but still easy to exploit

StackMeter

ok, here's an idea: longest time to execute, but your score is divided by bytecount ^ bytecount

Redwolf Programs

That's bad

Execution time can grow way faster than byte count

caird coinheringaahing

That'd scale so poorly

user

8:11 PM

@RedwolfPrograms Golfing languages would love it, but most practical languages just wouldn't compete

Redwolf Programs

It's like the biggest number in 10 bytes challenge

I think it'd be cool

caird coinheringaahing

Might write it up in the Sandbox

hyper-neutrino

the other problem is scoring

Wezl

I wouldn't like it but people will probably upvote anyway

hyper-neutrino

any competitive solution would be impossible to actually score, lol

user

8:12 PM

@hyper-neutrino Some function that forces you to minimize bytes and maximize execution time

Maybe score based on algorithmic complexity?

hyper-neutrino

unless one of y'all is willing to stick around til the heat death of the universe to time how long a submission actually takes to run

caird coinheringaahing

@user 99**99**99 takes a while in Python

user

Because if it's just time, I could run it on my crappy old Windows Vista and say I win

caird coinheringaahing

Calculatable asymptotic complexity maybe?

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Right, but not all languages have exponentiation operators

IMO you'd be disqualifying way too many people

StackMeter

8:14 PM

@user even deadfish can reach O(2^n)

Redwolf Programs

Not all challenges have to be applicable to every language

user

@RedwolfPrograms They should be applicable to most

Redwolf Programs

And I think this is

StackMeter

This could apply to just about everything

user

Rather than restricting code length, I'd suggest just making the scoring so longer code is punished

Wezl

8:15 PM

but it's not fun

Redwolf Programs

It could be a snippet, it doesn't have to be a full program

user

@RedwolfPrograms Practically every non-golfing language I know would be disqualified

Redwolf Programs

JS, Python, Java, C, ... would be allowed

user

@RedwolfPrograms That'd be better, but still not good enough

@RedwolfPrograms What could you even do in 10 bytes in Java?

caird coinheringaahing

@user The problem is that execution time will always outpace byte count after a specific inflection point

user

8:16 PM

99999*9999?

Redwolf Programs

Sure

Wezl

@user recurse

StackMeter

@user there's an arrow function that can be done in Python is like, 300 bytes, there's no way it couldn't do something huge with more

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing So the penalty for byte count should be exponential, maybe

@Wezl You can't.

StackMeter

y'all know the arrow function#

Redwolf Programs

8:16 PM

@user Then languages with factorial are the only competitive ones and it's worse!

Wezl

"takes as long as the stack allows. on my machine with 1 googol gigs this beats all the others"

user

The shortest method declaration would be void f(){f();}, and that doesn't terminate

Redwolf Programs

Maybe 20 bytes would be better

StackMeter

ok

caird coinheringaahing

I think the limited size is the best, 10 bytes may be to short

StackMeter

8:17 PM

say it must terminate

caird coinheringaahing

15/20/25 bytes maybe?

user

@RedwolfPrograms Better but still arbitrary

Redwolf Programs

Arbitrary is good sometimes

StackMeter

500 seems fair

user

If we're putting a limit, 30 would be somewhat reasonable

Wezl

8:17 PM

0

user

@Wezl Uh

Redwolf Programs

@StackMeter That lets you generate ridiculously large constants, no

user

@RedwolfPrograms So you adapt the scoring function

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms wdym

caird coinheringaahing

@StackMeter That'd be huge

Redwolf Programs

8:18 PM

The max reasonable is 40 or so

user

Fine, 40

Redwolf Programs

I'd say 25 would work better

You can do a lot in 40 bytes

user

But that's still unfair imo because 40 bytes for a language like Java is like 200 for a language like Jelly

Redwolf Programs

That was just the max that would make it at all reasonable

caird coinheringaahing

The biggest problem is how to measure the time

user

8:18 PM

^

Redwolf Programs

@user This is why languages don't compete with each other

Java will never be able to beat Jelly

caird coinheringaahing

How do you measure the algorithmic complexity of 99**99?

StackMeter

idea in Python: def a(n): return n**a(n-1), a(1000)

user

@RedwolfPrograms In a challenge that isn't purely code golf, it should have a chance

caird coinheringaahing

Perhaps computer cycles?

user

8:19 PM

We could make this atomic golf

That would eliminate the challenge of making it unfair for some languages, because everyone would essentially use one language

Redwolf Programs

That's worse

user

Also, you get to use the word "atom", which is cool :P

Redwolf Programs

Instead of some languages being harder, all of them are gone

caird coinheringaahing

I think the largest number in 10 bytes showed that these kinda challenges are 100% doable by all languages

Redwolf Programs

I think 20 to 25 would be a great challenge, and I doubt there are more than a few common languages which wouldn't be competitive

Wezl

8:21 PM

You're trying to duct tape some dust together

Redwolf Programs

It doesn't exactly have to be a full program

caird coinheringaahing

I'm writing it up with 20 as the limit rn

> The biggest problem is how to measure the time

@Wezl Duct tape is a good way to clean up dust and hair

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing >:|

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Which is why using complexity and a custom language would be a good idea

StackMeter

@cairdcoinheringaahing wasn't it 100

Redwolf Programs

8:22 PM

I think an atomic one would be good, for a separate challenge

caird coinheringaahing

@user If your issue with the byte limit is that it makes the challenge less open to everyone, a custom language makes it even less open

Redwolf Programs

^

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing How?

caird coinheringaahing

I don't want to have to learn a new language just to answer a challenge

Redwolf Programs

And I don't know why Java's your example, it's about as short as JS right?

user

8:23 PM

We'd adjust the restrictions for the custom language

@cairdcoinheringaahing Doesn't that apply to any atomic code golf challenge?

@RedwolfPrograms Not really, no

Redwolf Programs

It has the ->

caird coinheringaahing

@user No, they typically restrict it to a specific language rather than use a custom language

user

It doesn't allow recursion, though

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh ok

Redwolf Programs

Wait wat, no recursion?

user

@RedwolfPrograms Not with lambdas

hyper-neutrino

8:24 PM

you can recurse but you'd need to set it to a variable and thus declare a type and also you can't call lambdas

you have to do f.apply(...)

caird coinheringaahing

And people will complain about a "slowest Python program in 20 bytes" challenge, because they want to use Java or JS or anything else

hyper-neutrino

java, 0 bytes: starting up java already takes long enough to win /s

user

It's next to impossible to make big numbers in 10 bytes, let alone execute for more than a few milliseconds (for Java)

@hyper-neutrino :P

Redwolf Programs

@user Have you even looked at that challenge?

There are plenty of massive numbers in pretty much every language

user

@RedwolfPrograms Yeah

hyper-neutrino

8:25 PM

like some language like jelly's just gonna win cuz you can just do 9!¡!¡!¡!¡ or something really silly like that

user

Not as massive as, say, the Golfscript answer

Wait not golfscript

StackMeter

@RedwolfPrograms that was 100 byte, I know it

caird coinheringaahing

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a program that takes a constant amount of time to terminate, even if that's a long time, always have a complexity of O(1)?

Redwolf Programs

Yes

Doesn't O only make sense when there's an input?

user

I can't even find a java answer to that question

But I guess 40 or at least 30 bytes would be more or less reasonable if snippets were allowed

caird coinheringaahing

8:29 PM

Seriously, forget about the byte limit. It's completely arbitrary and doesn't affect writing the challenge

Scoring it is pretty important, and I have no idea how to objectively do that

user

What about counting time?

caird coinheringaahing

?

user

I mean recording how long it takes to execute

Do we make a time machine and travel to when the universe dies? :P

caird coinheringaahing

I know that some answers won't terminate within my lifetime, and I'd like to be able to score them before I die :P

Redwolf Programs

I'm going to propose one about highest time compexity

Given an input and a task to do with it

caird coinheringaahing

8:30 PM

Is there a way to calculate how long an arbitrary program will take to terminate (assuming it will)?

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing "And so it was that caird coinheringaahing found the cure to death" :P

@RedwolfPrograms That sounds good to me

Wezl

@cairdcoinheringaahing no

user

You can approximate it maybe, but that's hard

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms A specific task, or one of the answerer's choosing?

hyper-neutrino

this sounds suspiciously close to being able to be answered with "no, that solves the halting problem" but if we assume it will terminate and just want to determine how long without running it, it seems like it probably isn't contradictory

Redwolf Programs

8:33 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Specific one

Or maybe even a list of tasks they can choose from

To add some interestingness

caird coinheringaahing

This is, I believe, the slowest terminating program in Jelly in 10 bytes

user

Perhaps it could be limited to ~15 minutes, but that would take the fun out of it

caird coinheringaahing

import time; time.sleep(15 * 60 * 1000) :P

As soon as you introduce a limit, that's what every answer will be

user

:(

$\lim_{discussiontime\to\infty}mysanity=0$

caird coinheringaahing

My bad, this is the slowest terminating Jelly program in 10 bytes. Got the ! messed up

New Main Posts

8:46 PM

5

Q: Largest Compatible Maze

Background Consider an \$n\times n\$ grid, where each cell is either empty (denoted by .) or a wall (denoted by #). We say that two cells are adjacent if they share an edge (a corner is not enough). A path is a sequence of empty cells \$s_0,s_1,\ldots,s_k\$ such that cells \$s_i\$ and \$s_{i+1}\$...

Redwolf Programs

Here's my attempt at a slowest time compexity challenge

caird coinheringaahing

I'd suggest requiring it to be deterministic, otherwise I'm posting Bogosort :P

Redwolf Programs

Thought about it, but since it's based on average case it doesn't matter

Non-deterministic ones probably won't be that competitive, sadly

My ultimate goal in life is to sneak bogosort into an open source project somewhere

Wezl

easy if you make the project

Redwolf Programs

That wouldn't be sneaky, would it?

user

8:50 PM

You could legitimately sneak it into a unit test maybe

caird coinheringaahing

Get hired by google and change their search algorithm to sort using bogosort

3

Also, is there bogosearch? Shuffle the array until the first element is what you're looking for?

user

If there isn't, you can patent it

caird coinheringaahing

It'd be utterly useless, but I want it :P

Luis Mendo

Then get immediately fired by Google

hyper-neutrino

i mean you could just randomly pick an element until it's what you want; shuffling until it's the first isn't exactly helpful because then you don't have the index of the element because you shuffled your array

caird coinheringaahing

8:52 PM

@LuisMendo Do it sneakily enough that they don't know how to fix it :P

user

HN is using semicolons now? o.O

Luis Mendo

@cairdcoinheringaahing and golfing the code :-D

hyper-neutrino

why is that surprising lol

caird coinheringaahing

Force push the changes and clear the commit history :P

@LuisMendo Using Jelly, or course :P

user

@LuisMendo Nah, tell them it's a bug and then "fix" it and get a promotion :P

Luis Mendo

8:52 PM

@user Heh

user

@hyper-neutrino Semicolons are for posh, stuck-up people /s

hyper-neutrino

@user precisely, so why is it surprising that i'm using them /s

caird coinheringaahing

@user "fix" it by just bogosorting the first page of results :P

user

(sorry C, C++, Java, JS programmers)

caird coinheringaahing

@user I think you mean semicola :P

user

8:53 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing Or you could tell them "It works best on quantum computers, you wouldn't understand" :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing I apologize; I'm not as educated as you.

:P

caird coinheringaahing

It's all the Jelly in my brain :P

user

I honestly didn't know that was a word though

caird coinheringaahing

Me neither, Dennis introduced me to it here

As an aside, I do love the url for that challenge: /q/121921/make-a-interpreter :P

user

Tsk tsk, that's terrible grammar :P

New Sandboxed Posts

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Worst time complexity for an irreducible program Time complexity, typically represented in Big O notation, represents how long a program will typically take to run given some input(s), ignoring constants. Your task is to do one of the following things, with the worst time complexity possible: So...

user

8:59 PM

12 minutes? That's got to be a record for NSP

rak1507

@Adám wasn't really golfing, there are better ways to do it anyway

@Adám don't think this works, I'm passing the train as an operand

Redwolf Programs

:o

I have an idea

I'm sure it's been proposed before, but if we used something other than the "official" SE RSS feeds, we could add features like automatically including the titles of sandbox posts, faster/immediate posting, and filtering closed/deleted posts

caird coinheringaahing

Like a chatbot?

Redwolf Programs

Not even that...couldn't we just make an RSS feed ourselves?

Wezl

yeah, good idea

caird coinheringaahing

9:10 PM

Probably

Redwolf Programs

It doesn't look hard at all

codegolf.stackexchange.com/feeds

caird coinheringaahing

Set up a chat room to test it first, then ask on meta if we can add it to the feeds

Redwolf Programs

It's shudders XML, but it's not that scary looking

Should I just use my server?

For the test one?

(or maybe even the real one idk)

caird coinheringaahing

If you're fine with that, go ahead

Wezl

we should use this rss feed :)

caird coinheringaahing

9:11 PM

OSP is hosted on your server as well, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Redwolf Programs

9:22 PM

Now I just need someone to answer something so I can test if it's working :p

Wezl

I just realized the confusion someone unfamiliar with CGCC would have seeing "Did I die or not" along with all the rational questions on the HNQ list

Redwolf Programs

codegolf.stackexchange.com/posts/82604/revisions hehe

caird coinheringaahing

Beat me to it, damn :/

Redwolf Programs

80% of the way to Strunk and White

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms You're catching me this month :P

Redwolf Programs

9:38 PM

I'm using regex to parse HTML :D

caird coinheringaahing

Big number :P

Redwolf Programs

Okay, I think I've adapted New Posts to run on my server now

Redwolf Programs

10:09 PM

Ugh Node JS style documentation is so bad

"Hey you know how code is for computers to read? That's why we invented documentation, which is for humans to read. Unfortunately we forgot about that and now it looks like something a computer would read."

caird coinheringaahing

Glorfindel just got enough rep to start reviewing (and has), so say goodbye to getting in any reviews in Late Answers and First Posts :P

Redwolf Programs

:(

user

How does Glorfindel have so much rep everywhere?

caird coinheringaahing

They're a super helpful user network wide :P

Redwolf Programs

Twenty upvotes on the RO welcome post!

caird coinheringaahing

10:12 PM