The Nineteenth Byte

5:00 AM

@quartata Haskell's model is simpler in that lists of characters are displayed as string literals and lists of anything else are displayed as list literals, but you have to bend over backwards with typeclasses for that to actually work.

Downgoat

@EsolangingFruit Swift

DLosc

@Downgoat But the Banana Junior is a great computer!

Downgoat

well, a character in swift is a grapheme cluster

quartata

@EsolangingFruit right, trouble is that there is no character type

Esolanging Fruit

@Downgoat Correction: I wasn't aware of that property of any language. I was aware of the language Swift before this conversation.

quartata

5:01 AM

@DLosc hahahaha nice

favorite one is the gene simmons one

Wheat Wizard

I'm starting to spitball ideas for a 2-D language in hyperbolic space, does anyone have any interested in joining me?

Downgoat

@WheatWizard call it Life

my math teacher says 'life is a conic'

Wheat Wizard

Hm. I'm not sure I get it

I was thinking of calling it hypergatory

Downgoat

Esolanging Fruit

@WheatWizard I like that

Wheat Wizard

5:09 AM

Ok I see how life is a conic. But how is that related to hyperbolic space?

Pavel

@WheatWizard Hyperbolas are conic sections? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Downgoat

hyperbolic -> hyperbola -> conic

Wheat Wizard

Ah ok.

Esolanging Fruit

I do think the "2d language + strange program space" formula is getting a bit old by now (Hexagony, Cubix, Surface, Triangular, Wumpus, Klein, etc.)"

Ørjan Johansen

Anyone using Penrose tilings yet? :P

Esolanging Fruit

5:12 AM

@ØrjanJohansen I think Martin Ender made a reference to an unfinished esolang that used Penrose tilings once

Ørjan Johansen

Hm no hits for "penrose" on esolangs.

Esolanging Fruit

Try TNB and the Esolang chatroom

Apr 7 '17 at 7:38, by Martin Ender

One day I want to design a language on a Penrose grid. For that one my idea for the source code would be that you require one of the radially symmetric grids and write the code along concentric "circles" around the origin

Jan 8 '16 at 13:17, by Martin Büttner

> However, in my list of future language ideas there's the concept of using an aperiodic Penrose tiling (which has fivefold symmetry), but I need to sort out how to layout the code [...]

Pavel

Is Martin Buttner Martin Ender?

Esolanging Fruit

Yes. It's inconsistent across Esolangs/PPCG, and I'm not sure why he changed his name.

Wheat Wizard

@EsolangingFruit I'm having a similar problem with hyperbolic space

Esolanging Fruit

5:17 AM

Dïd hë thïnk ümläüts wërë ännöÿïng ör sömëthïng? :P

quartata

@EsolangingFruit married

(wasn't that long ago)

Esolanging Fruit

I see

What about a language where every grapheme cluster was a function definition: the main character was the function name, and all the combining diacritics, etc. formed the body?

I would totally <s>not</s> use that language...

Mr. Xcoder

5:29 AM

@DJMcMayhem Yeah I said I would, but I have some very important exams later this year and school stuff to do in the months to come, so I think my activity level might drop a bit. That definitely wouldn’t be good, especially if I were elected. Perhaps I’m going to consider running in for the next elelction >:)

DLosc

Implementing backslash escapes in string literals is a pain... I'm really tempted just to pass the token to Python eval. Somebody tell me that's a terrible idea and that I shouldn't do it.

HyperNeutrino

that is 10/10 best way to do it /s

DJMcMayhem

@Mr.Xcoder Well that's a shame. Best of luck to you in your exams!

HyperNeutrino

lol that's the way I did it in Proton 2. :P

Q: How can I check my own moderator candidate score without nominating myself? I'm not thinking of running but I want to know what my score is currently.

DLosc

@HyperNeutrino If this were an esolang, I'd probably just do it that way and not bother. But, alas, I'm actually trying to make something practical-ish for once.

HyperNeutrino

5:36 AM

Proton is meant to be practical as well so I guess I should do it properly :P

DLosc

@HyperNeutrino There's a query on StackExchange Data Explorer

Pavel

@DLosc Is that actually a bad idea? You can do all kinds of things with ast.literal_eval that are a pain to do by hand

HyperNeutrino

Oh cool thanks

before I check I'm estimating mine's like 15

DLosc

@Pavel Hm. I've never used ast, but maybe I should...

@HyperNeutrino You'll be surprised. :)

HyperNeutrino

oh wait WHAT i'm tied with phinotpi

@DLosc apparently so :P

I mean using eval realistically wouldn't be unsafe in the case where I'm using it because you can't insert random python code into it because otherwise it wouldn't parse it as a normal string

DLosc

5:41 AM

That's the case for me too, I think.

But there's always that nagging feeling that I'm missing some weird combination of escapes that will allow people to Bobby-Tables my language...

HyperNeutrino

lol

just say it's a feature

DLosc

> But, alas, I'm actually trying to make something practical-ish for once.

Though it also occurs to me that if I'm really serious about Appleseed being practical, I should be implementing it in something faster than Python...

@Downgoat Great, now I've got that song stuck in my head. ^_^

Downgoat

5:57 AM

Is there a reason more people haven't nominated themselves? Last election they were like 13 candidates

Wheat Wizard

We already have 3 really good candidates

DLosc

I haven't got the time or inclination to be a consistent moderator. I still reserve the right to disappear from the site for six months at a time.

Downgoat

I can think of two or three more people that would also be really good candidates

DLosc

Huh, TIL that Python while loops can have else clauses just like for loops can.

Wheat Wizard

Those are some of my favorites

Downgoat

6:03 AM

is there a reason python used else: instead of something like finally:

IMO makes more sense to someone who is not very-familar with python

DLosc

Well, try clauses have both else and finally, which mean two different things.

But yeah, somebody on the question I linked thought it should've been after or something.

The basic idea of it being else is "otherwise, if we didn't break out of the loop:"

while <condition>:
    if <problem_condition>:
        break
else:
    # Didn't encounter problem_condition
    <do_something>

Makes sense to me. But then, I'm familiar with Python. [shrug]

DLosc

6:24 AM

CMC: Given a string of printable ASCII, return truthy if it represents a well-formed string literal, and falsey otherwise. Well-formed literals start and end with double quotes "; they may have backslash escapes inside, which are a backslash `` followed by any one character (including another backslash or a double quote).

Truthy test cases:

""
"\""
"\\"
"Hello, World!"
"\\\\\""

Falsey test cases:

"
"\"
"\
Hello, "World"!
""""

DJMcMayhem

@DLosc is eval allowed? :P

DLosc

@DJMcMayhem Sure, but you're encouraged to write a version without it, too.

HyperNeutrino

@DLosc Proton, 21 bytes: /"([^"]|\\.)*"/.match

DLosc

Doesn't that give true on the second falsey test case?

Esolanging Fruit

@DLosc CJam, 1 byte: 0. While imperfect, this gets more and more accurate as the length of the input strings increases.

DLosc

6:38 AM

@EsolangingFruit Ha ha. This is code-golf, not test-battery. :P

NieDzejkob

@MDXF @totallyhuman it's the small snippet window that's cutting off the chart, doesn't seem to happen when you press full page

Esolanging Fruit

@DLosc Don't clarify the challenge in the comments — edit the original post.

Oh wait...

:P

DLosc

Pip, 20 bytes: a~=`"(\\.|[^\\"])*"`

Mr. Xcoder

@DJMcMayhem Thanks a lot! :-)

DLosc

6:54 AM

Goodness, there's been quite a slew of answers on old, highly answered challenges. Must be some new languages in town.

HyperNeutrino

@DLosc Whoops, yeah. /"([^"\\]|\\.)*"/.match

Esolanging Fruit

@DLosc I've noticed that as well. Mostly I've seen Martin (and others) with Wumpus, MD XF with Forked, and I've been submitting some Momema answers as well

DLosc

I've composed Appleseed solutions to some challenges, but I'm holding off on submitting them till I get I/O implemented and the language on TIO.

Mr. Xcoder

There will be another wave of answers once I release Physica and start writing Triangularity answers.

HyperNeutrino

CMP: Who would mind mandatory semicolons in Proton?

DLosc

7:08 AM

@HyperNeutrino Ehhh... I wouldn't mind too terribly, but I prefer languages without. When writing PHP, I often forget a semicolon somewhere, and then I have to go back in and find it and fix it, which is just annoying.

HyperNeutrino

Hm okay. I'm having trouble with parsing it with no separator because modgrammar doesn't seem to be able to handle it. I could set it to use "\n" | ";" as the separator.

The old Proton allowed you to just write statements right next to each other but that sometimes caused weird behavior. the only visible advantage was golfiness :P

which I've decided to completely ignore for Proton

DLosc

Yeah, newline or ; is a good option, I think.

And if people really like semicolons, they can add them to the end of every line and it'll still work!

HyperNeutrino

yeah :P

DLosc

All right, here's my masterpiece: QBasic, 187 bytes

LINE INPUT s$
q$=CHR$(34)
IF s$=q$OR LEFT$(s$,1)<>q$OR RIGHT$(s$,1)<>q$THEN?0:END
FOR i=2TO LEN(s$)-1
c$=MID$(s$,i,1)
IF b THEN b=0 ELSE IF"\"=c$THEN b=1 ELSE IF q$=c$THEN?0:END
NEXT
?b-1

Potato44

8:04 AM

I never expcted I would be debugging DOS COM files for recreation. but that is what is happening now.

ATaco

@HyperNeutrino that smells Funky :P

New Main Posts

8:57 AM

1

Q: Is My Swipe Pattern Legal?

Most smartphones allow the user to use a swipe pattern to open their phone: Certain patterns are legitimate, and others are impossible. Given an input swipe pattern, return a truthy or falsy indicating if the given input pattern is legal or not. Input The grid is labelled row-wise 1 through...

flawr

9:19 AM

I wrote a sandbox entry but I don't see why my Markdown does not get interpreted as intended. see here

hmm the <p seemed to be causing those problems =/

Emigna

Probably interprets is as a paragraph

flawr

why

what the heck?

how can I find previous revisions now?

I just wanted to update the link above..

Emigna

You can't within the 5min window

New Sandboxed Posts

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Betrands Primes code-golfnumbernumber-theoryprimessequence Bertrand's Postulate states that for every integer n ≥ 1 there is at least one prime p such that n < p ≤ 2n. In order to verify this theorm for n < 4000 we do not have to check 4000 cases: The Landau trick says it is sufficient to check...

Jo King

10:04 AM

Have leaderboard snippets stopped working for anyone else?

Emigna

10:55 AM

@JoKing Seem to be working for me

Jo King

Huh. It seems to be my Wi-Fi? I can load them on data... weird.

Adám

@DLosc APL (Dyalog Unicode), 16 bytes {0::0⋄≡⍬⍋⎕JSON⍵}

Cows quack

11:26 AM

@Adám what is the purpose of the ⍬? removing it seems to work fine

Adám

@Cowsquack Removing it makes it fail on simple numeric arrays like [1,2,3]. Try it online! It is explained here.

Cows quack

ah, that makes sense

PhiNotPi

12:22 PM

Woo election starts today!

Adám

@PhiNotPi Not a very exciting election, imho. Polls show that you and DJ will win. If that doesn't happen, then one of you will be replaced by Mego.

PhiNotPi

@Adám I'm not sure sure about me winning? I thought polls showed DJ+Mego?

Fatalize

@Adám Why didn't you run for mod btw? You're one of the most active users in the last months

Adám

@PhiNotPi I'm using upvotes here as "polls".

PhiNotPi

@Adám If I don't win, I'll settle for having the most highly-upvoted questionnaire.

Adám

12:32 PM

@Fatalize I consider myself disqualified. I'm mainly here for a very specific and biased purpose, and I would feel awkward about being a mod with such a role. I also find it questionable that a company should pay someone to be a SE mod.

Fatalize

"a very specific and biased purpose" -> APL propaganda I presume? :p

Adám

@Fatalize Yes. I don't try to hide that.

HyperNeutrino

1:13 PM

I'm having issues with modgrammar for Proton 2.0 (TIO link here); Statement parses perfectly fine, but when I try replacing Statement.parser().parse_string with Program.parser().parse_string, it recursion-errors (I'm not sure on which part). Anyone have any ideas/leads?

Adám

2:13 PM

TFW your code stares back at you: ∪≡∘,∘⊂⊃

HyperNeutrino

that looks slightly creepy o.O :P

6 hours until elections \o/

label a -- goto a

mm

Fatalize

@Adám "I also find it questionable that a company should pay someone to be a SE mod" -> It's a bit funny that you say that considering that most people here go on PPCG in any situation, including at school and at work :p

Adám

@Fatalize Up to the morals of every individual, I guess. Jewish law sources discuss the permissibility of saying a long grace after meals during work hours, as that would lessen the employers income (ever so slightly).

PhiNotPi

@Fatalize Especially at school and at work.

HyperNeutrino

2:39 PM

apparently (a + b) * 3 is a syntax error in Proton but 3 * (a + b) is fine

totallyhuman

gj

Dennis

Commutativity is overrated.

6

Adám

@Dennis True

Dennis

Transitivity is also overrated.

Pavel

@Adám If you pretend == was designed to be like the Perl smart match operator it gets more bearable.

Adám

2:51 PM

@Dennis True

Pavel

@Adám Thanks IE.

Adám

@Pavel Woo!

@Pavel Really?

HyperNeutrino

Can anyone help me figure out why multiplication only works one way in Proton? TIO link here

this makes no sense ._.

NieDzejkob

3:15 PM

Instead of

Product := LIST_OF(Number OR Expr), sep = '*'
Sum := LIST_OF(Product OR Expr), sep = '+'
Expression := Product OR Sum
Expr := '(' Expression ')'

do

Factor := Number | '(' Expression ')'
Summand := LIST_OF(Factor), sep = '*'
Expression := LIST_OF(Summand), sep = '+'

at least that's how it's usually done

HyperNeutrino

oo thanks it now parses properly

doesn't eval but I'll fix that

:D it works thanks! @NieDzejkob

NieDzejkob

usually in a grammar you have "an expression that contains only operator X and those that are evaulated before operator X"

HyperNeutrino

hm ok

Pavel

3:52 PM

0

Q: How do I compare two objects in Perl without coercing them to the same type?

In Perl, I know of three ways to test objects for equality: ==, eq, and ~~. All of these tell me that 1 is equal to "1" in both Perl 5 and Perl 6. However, 1 and "1" are not the same thing. How can I compare two objects so that 1 equals 1, "1" equals "1", 1 does not equal "1" or 2, and "1" does ...

perl perl6

welp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't know if that's Perl wizardry or Perl horribleness.

Adám

@Pavel Wat

Pavel

@Adám ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

== converts it's arguments to numbers. eq converts its arguments to strings. ~~ smart-matches.

Adám

@Pavel But why, oh, why, couldn't they just let you check if they actually are the same or not?

Dennis

They do. They are the same.

Pavel

@Adám As the answer points out, !0 is three values at the same time: an int, a float, and a string.

Adám

3:58 PM

@Pavel I conjecture that APL has less (not no) wats than most other languages.

Pavel

I'm surprised no one's asked before. It's a simple idea, but I feel like I understand Perl so much more now.

After thinking about it for a bit, I have come to the conclusion that Perl's type system is complete and utter garbage.

DJMcMayhem

Is anyone else getting a 404 for the election page?

@DJMcMayhem Yes

@DJMcMayhem yep

@DJMcMayhem Yeah

4:11 PM

@DJMcMayhem it's not actually a 404, it's an "oops"

codegolf.stackexchange.com/error?aspxerrorpath=/election/2

like, it actually redirects to codegolf.stackexchange.com/error

DJMcMayhem

@EriktheOutgolfer Eh, close enough

Erik the Outgolfer

well, a 404 would've been more insulting to me :P

totallyhuman

i have it cached but yeah

Pavel

> Yes, we do look at every error. We even try to fix some of them.

@Adám I did get an actual solution by the way. It's a horrible hack though: stackoverflow.com/a/48750635/3553138

DJMcMayhem

@Dennis But overratedness is not commutative

HyperNeutrino

4:19 PM

lol

Adám

@Pavel How do the serialisers determine type?

HyperNeutrino

CMP: Should a @ b |> c == (a @ b) |> c or a @ b |> c == a @ (b |> c)`?

I personally favor the first one.

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Remind me what those symbols do again.

HyperNeutrino

a @ b == b |> a == a(b)

Pavel

@Adám I'm guessing most parts of the standard library are implemented in C and not Perl for performance reasons anyway, and that lets you see the real type.

Adám

4:24 PM

@HyperNeutrino That didn't help me. I'm not very clever.

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino The first one, I think.

HyperNeutrino

a @ b is a function call. b |> a is function piping. So a@b is the same thing as b |> a which is the same thing as a(b).

totallyhuman

@HyperNeutrino you're asking for the precedence of @ and |>?

HyperNeutrino

yes

totallyhuman

i'd say @ before |>

also how haskell does it iirc

HyperNeutrino

4:26 PM

I might make it same-level LTR or @ > |>

hm ok

totallyhuman

or wait...

lemme check

infixl 1 &; infixr 0 $

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Yeah, same-level makes more sense: easy to remember, preserves flow direction, and the two are equivalent anyway.

HyperNeutrino

ok. that's what I'm thinking rn

Pavel

@HyperNeutrino Haskell does the latter: tio.run/##y0gszk7Nyfn/…

That said, in this case I don't think you should follow haskell.

totallyhuman

yeah $ is fairly different

it is application but it has a different purpose

HyperNeutrino

4:30 PM

I mean if you have arg1 |> func @ arg2, func has to return a function either way.

Pavel

I think |> and @ should have the same precedence and be evaluated left-to-right.

HyperNeutrino

If you have func1 @ arg |> func2, it probably makes more sense for it to be func2(func1(arg)) than func1(func2(arg))

Pavel

Exactly. Left-to-right.

HyperNeutrino

yeah

wait. a@b@c is a(b(c)) not a(b)(c) so it's RTL

and a |> b |> c is c(b(a)) so LTR

this is slightly problematic

Pavel

Hmm

HyperNeutrino

4:36 PM

otherwise I'd just declare them in the same grammar

DJMcMayhem

Who do you expect to win the PPCG 2018 election?

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Soon, you'll be able to do exit polls.

HyperNeutrino

minus a few bytes by saying who do you expect to not win and then listing the candidates instead of 2-combinations :P (/s)

Erik the Outgolfer

@DJMcMayhem the way you put your name after Phi's shows generosity...

DJMcMayhem

@HyperNeutrino I thought about that actually. It seemed more negative

HyperNeutrino

4:41 PM

actually each name shows up before the other once and after the other once... :P

DJMcMayhem

^ that was intentional

HyperNeutrino

@DJMcMayhem Yeah, that's why the /s :P

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer DJ could have been last consistently. Chose to make each candidate appear ones in each position.

betseg

/s

Erik the Outgolfer

>_> you insulted DJ

DJMcMayhem

4:44 PM

Hmmmm... I wonder if the fact that I was the one who posted the poll has any bias on the way people answer

HyperNeutrino

so far everyone thinks DJ will win :p

anyway gtg o/

Erik the Outgolfer

I like how nobody has voted for "Mego and Phi", while people have voted for "Phi and DJ"

Pavel

I can see Dj and Phi competing, but I can't imagine Mego losing.

Erik the Outgolfer

that

DJMcMayhem

I'm also curious if there's a significant difference between expectations and preferences.

Erik the Outgolfer

4:52 PM

should I tell you my actual vote? ;)

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Surely, you have not voted yet.

Erik the Outgolfer

like, for when I vote of course

not during error time :P

DJMcMayhem

Hmm... I feel like asking people to say who they did or will vote for feels less... genuine? I'm not sure how to word it

betseg

Enfield Southgate in the 1997 general election

Michael Portillo's loss of the Enfield Southgate seat in the 1997 general election to Stephen Twigg came as a shock to many politicians and commentators, and came to symbolise the extent of the Labour landslide victory. Portillo had been widely expected to contest the Conservative leadership after the General Election, which without a Commons seat he was unable to do. There had been a poll in The Observer newspaper on the weekend before the election which showed that Portillo held only a three-point lead in his hitherto safe seat. He had a memorable interview with Jeremy Paxman on the election...

"safe seat", so nobody voted, lost

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer I'd say no. No matter what you vote, it may make future interactions with the candidates uncomfortable and/or biased.

Erik the Outgolfer

4:56 PM

@Adám of course I won't tell anybody else my vote, that was a rhetorical question :~)

DJMcMayhem

@betseg TL;DR? Is it saying Everyone expected Portillo to win, so nobody bothered to vote for him?

betseg

yes

DJMcMayhem

OK. Reminds me of the shy tory effect, which is another interesting voting phenomenom

Manish Kundu

5:11 PM

in python, i need part of string starting from "abc" till "xyz" . how do i do that using regex?

Erik the Outgolfer

uh

DJMcMayhem

@ManishKundu So... "abcfoobarxyz" --> "foobar"?

Erik the Outgolfer

abc[.\n]*xyz?

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Narcissistic Functions functional-programming code-golf Write a function f that, when given a function g, returns a truthy value if g is the function f, or a falsey value otherwise. These functions can either have the same reference, or be semantically equivalent (i.e. reducible to the same fu...

Erik the Outgolfer

@NewSandboxedPosts lightning speed

Manish Kundu

5:14 PM

lol

DJMcMayhem

Hey, I just got my 4th reviewer badge

Manish Kundu

and suppose i have some html part as my string, and how do i remove any part contained in brackets?

eg: <h4 style="color:#737373">manish17</h4><br />\n\t\t<h3> ->> manish17

Erik the Outgolfer

@ManishKundu be careful...

New Sandboxed Posts

5:47 PM

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Tetris strategy Your task is to implement a balanced Tetris strategy in terms of score vs code size. In this version of the game tetrominoes are rotated and dropped from above into a grid of 20 rows and 10 columns. While falling, they cannot be rotated or moved horizontally. As usual, a dropped...

Pavel

6:09 PM

God damn I forgot to uninstall Package-kit when I reinstalled Fedora and my dnf broke again.

caird coinheringaahing

CMC: Given a positive integer i, output range(3*i, (i+1)*4)

Pavel

@cairdcoinheringaahing lambda i:range(3*i,i*4+4)

@cairdcoinheringaahing \i->[3*i..i*4+3]

betseg

@cairdcoinheringaahing f(){a=$1;echo {$((a*3))..$((a*4+4))}}

caird coinheringaahing

GolfScript, 11 bytes: {.)4*,\3*>}

DJMcMayhem

@cairdcoinheringaahing Brain-flak, 50 bytes: (({})<(({})({}){})>()()()()){({}<(({})())>[()])}{}

label a -- goto a

6:17 PM

@betseg what language is it?

betseg

@labela--gotoa zsh (not sure if it works in bash)

label a -- goto a

ah, ok

Pavel

@betseg That doesn't need to be a function, that can be a script by itself

caird coinheringaahing

Jelly, 8 bytes: 2 different ways

betseg

@cairdcoinheringaahing 🍇a🚂🔂i⏩✖3a✖➕1a 4🍇😀🔡i 10🍉🍉

Pavel

6:20 PM

@betseg Also, I think you want +3, since the .. operator does include it's right value but range almost always excludes its right value.

caird coinheringaahing

@betseg wonders what language that could be

betseg

could be emoji or emojicode

Erik the Outgolfer

it's clickable

betseg

yeah, a link to tio

ungolfed

Erik the Outgolfer

just like that's any more readable

betseg

6:25 PM

@Pavel what language is it?

Pavel

@betseg Did you make Emojicode?

betseg

i wish

Pavel

@betseg Haskell

betseg

emojicode is too well built for anything i could ever have :(

Anonymous

6:37 PM

I don't know why people use Macbooks for programming

Anonymous

They're terrible

Anonymous

4 hours into my first day and I already want to just buy a new laptop specifically for work

betseg

"i paid money for this im cool"

(at least 70% of users by observation)

DJMcMayhem

@Mego Are you using xcode?

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem Eclipse

Anonymous

6:43 PM

It's the uselessness of the keyboard and touchpad that really irk me

DJMcMayhem

Wait, is it the hardware or the software that bugs you more?

Anonymous

Yes

Anonymous

You know all those useful keys like home, end, pgup, and pgdn? Yeah those are replaced by chords that aren't displayed anywhere on the keyboard - you have to look them up

DJMcMayhem

I never use those when I have them...

But then why not just plug an external keyboard in?

Anonymous

Even something as simple as locking the computer (Win+L in Windows, or whatever you configure it to in Linux) is a 3-key chord that is represented by graphical icons. Of those icons, one of them isn't even on the keyboard (^), and you have to guess whether it means control or alt.

Anonymous

6:46 PM

@DJMcMayhem If I had one... :P

Anonymous

I'm considering bringing my own hardware to make it usable

DJMcMayhem

That's what I do on windows

Anonymous

Also: if you're used to sane systems where ^ means control, you're wrong. ^ means alt on Mac.

betseg

"backspace" is called "delete" on the keyboard... wtf

DJMcMayhem

I know you complained about it, but I seriously love the touch pad. My current touch pad is painful to use by comparison

Anonymous

6:47 PM

I like having an actual mouse

Erik the Outgolfer

I like having both

betseg

how do you delete the character after the cursor on a macbook

NieDzejkob

@Mego Who needs these when you have 0 $, ^B and ^F?

Anonymous

@betseg That too. fn+"delete" is apparently real delete

Erik the Outgolfer

when precision is required the touchpad helps

DJMcMayhem

6:48 PM

@betseg <right><del> :P

NieDzejkob

@betseg x, like on any other keyboard

DJMcMayhem

@Mego Oh I do to. But if I have to use a touchpad, the mac one is far better than any windows touchpad I have ever used

Anonymous

@EriktheOutgolfer "precision" and "touchpad" do not go together :P

betseg

@Mego literally opposite sides of the keyboard...

DJMcMayhem

@betseg Or lx

Anonymous

6:49 PM

@DJMcMayhem Oh, one of my coworkers uses vim for everything. I don't understand how he can live without pgup/down.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego looks like we have a different opinion on this matter, not gonna debate it :P

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I don't really know what that has to do with vim.

I've never used page-up/down basically ever though

And vim has other movements ({}, /, ]], etc.) that are IMO much more useful

Dennis

How do you Bash without PgUp/PgDn?

Anonymous

pgup/dn is so much faster to quickly flip though text in any editor than trying to go line by line with arrow keys, when you don't know what you're looking for (and thus can't use find)

Erik the Outgolfer

he is an avid vim user, we are on the other edge of the universe

:P

DJMcMayhem

6:52 PM

@Dennis I have no clue what PgUp/PgDn does in bash

Anonymous

All it seems to do for me is enter a tilde

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I would just use } and { in that case (forward and backward 1 paragraph). ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Anonymous

@DJMcMayhem But then that's a modifier + a keystroke, rather than just a keystroke

Erik the Outgolfer

I think that counts as 1 keystroke...

Anonymous

Am I really alone here in the fact that I fully use the capabilities of my keyboard? :P

Anonymous

6:54 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer It takes longer to hold shift and hit the key than it does to just hit pgup/dn

DJMcMayhem

@Mego I guess so. But if you're gonna go there, then the benefit of having your fingers on hjkl rather than moving them over to the arrow keys all the time waaaaay outweigh the advantage of not pressing shift when you occasionally want to PgUp/Dn

Erik the Outgolfer

@Mego just a terminology nitpick :p

DJMcMayhem

Plus {} can take a count

Anonymous

Or just have all of the options available without having to memorize a dozen stupid chords because your keyboard was designed for aesthetics instead of functionality :P

Dennis

@DJMcMayhem It completes a partial command from history. For example, typing nano and pressing PgUp several time cycles though the most recent commands beginning with nano.

DJMcMayhem

6:57 PM

Don't the arrow keys do that?

Erik the Outgolfer

I don't think so

the arrow keys just go through the history

Dennis

No, the arrow keys just go through the most recent commands. They don't care what you've already typed.

DJMcMayhem

Oh. Huh. I guess I just use vim so often and bash so rarely that I didn't know that

betseg

@Dennis they do in zsh