The Nineteenth Byte

Pavel

00:00

Also our election this year is kinda boring.

Wheat Wizard

@totallyhuman What do you mean?

totallyhuman

it shows that ppcg is dropping in activity

Wheat Wizard

I don't think that that is true.

I think it shows we have 3 strong candidates.

totallyhuman

... I'm obsessed with plq and I think I need to stop >_>

Dennis

Been there with the first incarnation.

totallyhuman

00:07

haha I'm catching up to your score on the first one

Adám

@Mr.Xcoder ^ ?

quartata

what's the flavor of the one on the far right

Adám

@quartata I can't remember. I ate the last a few days ago.

totallyhuman

hah

@NieDzejkob um I kinda broke the snippet by cracking too much

Adám

Yes, I actually went out and bought a couple of bags (to make sure I'd get the colours I needed) of (kosher) jelly letters.

quartata

00:19

Oh, does gelatin make it non-kosher?

Adám

@quartata common gelatin, yes. These are from fish (no pun intended) gelatin.

quartata

interesting

Zacharý

@quartata ...

Adám

@quartata Apparently Haribo makes their jelly confectionery in a common variety (pig/cow/horse/deer/whatever gelatin), a halal variety (no pigs), and a kosher variety (kosher fish).

Wheat Wizard

Is cow gelatin not Kosher?

Adám

00:29

@WheatWizard It can be kosher, but would require much more complicated procurement than kosher fish gelatin (which just needs to come from kosher fish).

Wheat Wizard

Ah, ok. I see wikipedia actually has a whole section on this.

Kosher foods

Kosher foods are those that conform to the regulations of kashrut (dietary law), primarily derived from Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Food that may be consumed according to halakha (law) is termed kosher ( ) in English, from the Ashkenazi pronunciation of the Hebrew term kashér (כָּשֵׁר‬, ), meaning "fit" (in this context, fit for consumption). Food that is not in accordance with law is called treif (Yiddish: טרײף‎, , derived from Hebrew: טְרֵפָה‎ trāfáh) meaning "torn." == Permitted and forbidden animals == The Torah permits only land animals which both chew the cud and have cloven hooves. Four...

Pavel

00:54

How the hell is hell is gelatin made

I just assumed it was sugar globbed together with synthetic chemicals

Wheat Wizard

It is made from collegen

Adám

@Pavel Jelly will never again be the same to you…

Pavel

I wonder what the original reasoning behind the definitions of what constitutes Kosher food was.

Someone sometime came to the conclusion that you shouldn't eat pork, and I wonder why.

Dennis

Before we had fridges, it was a bad idea.

Adám

@Pavel Some will say that it was sensible rules at the time (i.e. for health reasons), but orthodox Jews believe these rules are God-given and therefore essentially arbitrary.

DJMcMayhem

01:02

@Pavel Well, if you believe in the Torah and/or the Bible, it was the divinely inspired word of God rather than someone arbitrarily deciding to outlaw certain foods

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Heh, it was God who arbitrarily outlawed certain foods.

Destructible Lemon

@Adám what's the funny thing?

Dennis

@Adám There's jelly without gelatin btw.

Adám

@DestructibleLemon DJ said "divinely inspired word of God" in contrast to "someone arbitrarily deciding to outlaw certain foods", while in fact the former implies the latter.

DJMcMayhem

So... the divinely arbitrary word of God?

Adám

01:09

@Dennis Well, the words "jelly" and "gelatin" are not very well-defined. Does Agar count? Royal jelly? Pectin? Anyway, don't worry, I don't think you meant anything specific when you chose your language name.

@DJMcMayhem Something like that, I guess. Kosher-keeping is not a health club. Apparently some non-Jews eat kosher for health reasons. We do have a separate commandment to guard our health very well, though.

Destructible Lemon

I was making a program and was wondering why a function wasn't working and it was because the function wasn't being called...

DJMcMayhem

I had a friend who was a Christian, not ethnically Jewish, but chose to live under the laws of Judaism. I never quite understood how that worked

So I guess you could say that made him a Messianic Jew? Maybe that term is off, idk

Maybe that only applies to people who are ethnically Jewish

Destructible Lemon

@DJMcMayhem because they share one of their books?

lol

Is it even possible to solve my challenge with a Korean Esolang (Ex. Aheui)? I would like to give them some bounty.

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Anyone is free to keep whichever rules they desire. Judaism does not seek to impose itself on others, i.e. according to Judaism it is perfectly fine for a non-Jew to remain a non-Jew (and either keep the rules designated for Jews or not).

DJMcMayhem

01:15

@DestructibleLemon Yeah, but Judaism rejects the New Testament and Jesus as messiah, and Christianity (generally) rejects the need to follow all of the laws of the Torah

So there's a pretty significant difference

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Messianic Jews are ethnic Jews who believe Jesus was (is?) the messiah.

Destructible Lemon

@DJMcMayhem there's a fair amount of debate about what exactly was meant by the rejection

DJMcMayhem

@Adám Can you be a Messianic Jew without being ethnically Jewish?

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Right. But I have a really hard time trying to find out how Christians determine which of the OT rules to keep, and which not to keep.

DJMcMayhem

@DestructibleLemon Of Jesus or of The Torah?

Riker

01:17

@DJMcMayhem probably #1

Destructible Lemon

of the old laws, or whatever it was that was said in the bible

Adám

@DJMcMayhem I don't think so. Maybe it depends on what constitutes ethnicity.

@DestructibleLemon According to a Catholic colleague of mine, it is fairly simple for Catholics: The pope can institute or cancel any laws. (Obviously, they believe that these decisions are divinely inspired.) But this still doesn't answer for all the Christians who reject the pope's authority/divine inspiration.

DJMcMayhem

@Adám Hmm, that's a really good question. From what I've heard, the 10 commandments are to be kept, but that all of the other ones are not strictly one way or the other because of grace. I think the beginning of Romans 6 and Romans 14 are relevant

But I certainly could not give a definitive answer beyond "There is grace. Keep the 10 commandments, not really sure about the others."

Adám

@DJMcMayhem "Love thy neighbour" is not one of the 10, and yet it is often quoted by Christians (if I'm not mistaken).

DJMcMayhem

Oh yeah, good point

@Adám That is directly from Jesus in 34-40

Wheat Wizard

01:25

@Adám That's in both testaments

ninja'd

Adám

@DJMcMayhem @WheatWizard OK, but that does seem to indicate that not only the 10 stand.

DJMcMayhem

> On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.

I take that as "All of the laws that matter can be summarized in these two commands:"

Adám

@DJMcMayhem Sure, that makes sense. Jesus went to Rabbinical school, and that would have been what they taught at the time. E.g. Hillel (c. -110–10) said: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation of this—go and study it!"

Pavel

I just subscribe to the rule of "Don't be a dick", all this stuff is too complicated for me.

Adám

@Pavel That's a good rule to begin with. Unfortunately, life can be a bit more complex at times. An example my father used to use (although it is more effective when speaking to people who have children) was: If a bomb is about to go off and kill your child, and your prisoner knows where it is or how to disable it, would you torture him into revealing it?

PhiNotPi

01:34

I think we should resurrect this fortnightly challenge idea: chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/22138/… The central idea is that we could have a stack-snippet KOTH that basically "ran itself" using some cryptographic scheme that allows anyone to run the tournament and update the leaderboard.

DLosc

@Adám My impression is that the early church decided, in essence, what you said earlier: that it was perfectly fine for a non-Jewish Christian to remain a non-Jew, and either keep the rules designated for Jews or not. They did counsel people to avoid pagan practices, and also avoid certain things that would be offensive to Jewish Christians. The main point being, as stated, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, etc." and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Pavel

@Adám Are there rules for what you should do in a case like that?

Adám

@DLosc OK, but why did they have to (specifically) keep the 10 commandments? Nowhere (AFAIK) are they singled out to have some kind of special status.

@Pavel As a rule of thumb, Judaism has rules about everything. In that case, if there is any chance of rescuing those that he's trying to kill, you'd have to torture him as long as you don't kill him.

Pavel

Sounds reasonable

Adám

@Pavel As a rule of thumb, Judaism's rules are reasonable ;-)

Pavel

01:45

I don't mean to be offensive, but I'd rather be allowed to eat whatever jelly candies I want.

Adám

@Pavel Oh, I'm sorry. By no means should you take this as any kind of proselytisation. Jewish law is only obligatory for Jews. Enjoy any jelly candies you want; it is perfectly fine – according to even the most fanatic Jews.

Pavel

I don't think there's any perfectly reasonable ruleset out there, so I prefer to build my own.

Adám

@Pavel Actually, Judaism does obligate non-Jews with a very small number of rules. One of them is to come up with a ruleset of their own.

DLosc

@Adám Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I'm not 100% sure that Christians do keep the Ten Commandments. For instance, Paul says in Romans 14, "One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." This certainly seems to refer to the (non)observance of Jewish holy days; but does that include the Sabbath too? I'm not sure.

And is it in keeping with the commandment to rest on the first day (Sunday), in remembrance of Jesus' resurrection, instead of the seventh day (Saturday)?

Pavel

@Adám Which is great! I wish more religions were like that. Around here we have quite a few groups of the sort that knock on your door and invite you to their Church this Sunday.

Wheat Wizard

01:54

My church was so passive that I didn't know that Catholics were not agnostic until I was 15.

I think it's more of a people thing than a religion thing.

Adám

@DLosc I'd of course say no. Remembering and safeguarding the Sabbath is in commemoration of and testimony to God being the Creator. This is mentioned over and over. How can that commandment be fulfilled on a different day. (AFAIK, nobody is disputing the mod-7s.)

DLosc

Right. And there are Christians (Seventh-Day Adventists, for example) who would say the same.

I would say the reason for celebrating Sunday is that Christians see the Hebrew Scriptures through the lens of who Jesus is and did and taught. And so what Christians commemorate and testify to on the first day is the new creation that God began by raising Jesus from the dead.

But Christianity certainly has changed some practices from how they were observed in Israel, and I think we need to be honest about that.

(I love this conversation, BTW!)

Pavel

Yeah, it's very informative

Adám

@DLosc Fair enough, but that still doesn't uphold the Sabbath commandments, and so one would again have to let go of the 10 as special.

Pavel

I believe it started with a discussion of the flavor of the JHT community ad.

quartata

02:07

@PhiNotPi can we get that room unfrozen?

Adám

@DLosc @Pavel Yeah, I also find that discussion religion with programmers is way more productive than (trying) to do so with people in general. A significant portion of Dyalog's employees are very religious (though no two consider themselves as belonging to the same group) and we regularly have very sound discussions.

quartata

I was reading through the Wikipedia article on kosher foods and found this:

Pikuach nefesh

Pikuach Nefesh (Hebrew: פיקוח נפש) describes the principle in Jewish law that the preservation of human life overrides virtually any other religious consideration. When the life of a specific person is in danger, almost any mitzvah lo ta'aseh (command to not do an action) of the Torah becomes inapplicable. == Biblical source == The Torah, in Leviticus 18:5, states "You shall therefore keep my statutes and my rules; if a person does them, he shall live by them: I am the LORD." The implication here is that Jews should live by Torah law rather than die because of it. Ezekiel 20:11 also states this...

Which I of course read as Pikachu nefesh

mudkip201

I always read it that way lol

PhiNotPi

@Dennis another unfreeze request (per above): chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/22138/…

If I'm elected mod I could unfreeze these rooms by myself. Yet another reason to Vote Phi.

Pavel

@Adám Maybe programmers generally have more interesting discussions. TNB off-topic conversations cover everything from religion to linguistics to literature to music.

3

Dennis

02:17

in Fortnightly challenge of 2015-03-20: Asynchronous KotH, 9 secs ago, by Feeds

Dennis has unfrozen this room.

PhiNotPi

10/10

Adám

CMQ: Which of the TNB discussions you've participated in was the most extremely off-topic?

totallyhuman

@Adám conversation about code golf

Pavel

Jun 1 '17 at 19:45, by DJMcMayhem

Can I just say that I love TNB? In a room dedicated to code-golf, we can have a perfectly serious conversation about guinea pig inbreeding and overpopulation, complete with genetic research and mathematical analysis?

No contest

DLosc

@Adám Now you've got me on a Christianity.SE and Hermeneutics.SE trawl. :) Haven't found a question yet that asks point-blank, "Do Christians observe the Ten Commandments, and if so, in what sense?", but here's one specifically about Protestant Reformed churches and Sabbath.

Interestingly, the accepted (and only) answer says that Christ's death "removed" the entire Law of Moses... but since it is still beneficial, according to God's design, for humans to have a day of rest, Christians still have one. I'm not sure what I think of that argument.

Pavel

02:26

@DLosc What's Hermeneutics?

DLosc

@Pavel Biblical interpretation.

@Adám Probably this one, or maybe something to do with languages.

Adám

@DLosc Sure, discarding the entire canon is at least consistent, but is there then new list of commandments to replace the old 613-item one?

HyperNeutrino

Assuming I understand how flags work properly, it's extremely hard for moderators to get the Marshal badge because their "flags" are automatically treated as verdict?

quartata

@HyperNeutrino s/extremely hard/impossible/g

HyperNeutrino

o ok

so the only way is to get it before becoming a mod or to get de-modded and then get it :P

quartata

02:34

yes

Pavel

@DLosc Hold on, why isn't that just a dupe of christianity.se? What can you ask on one that won't belong in the other.

quartata

you'll notice that Alex only has 25 helpful flags for instance

@Pavel because it's about the bible in general, not christianity specifically

DLosc

@Adám Yeah... and I think my main problem with that argument is that Jesus and the New Testament authors keep quoting (parts of) the Law of Moses as if it's authoritative. Marcion tried the "Get rid of all the Jewish stuff" approach in the second century, and was condemned as a heretic. :P TL;DR: It's complicated. Books have been written.

Pavel

@quartata 0/10, save a byte by removing the g flag

DLosc

@Pavel I haven't participated in either site (yet), but my guess would be that a Hermeneutics.SE question would be "What are the arguments for interpreting passage X to mean Y?" whereas a Christianity.SE question would be "What arguments does ABC Denomination make for interpreting passage X to mean Y?" Hermeneutics asks questions about the Bible; Christianity asks questions about Christians.

moonheart08

02:49

Hey, @Dennis, Would it be possible to add the Ethereum Virtual Machine to TIO?

Pavel

@moonheart08 Please post in talk.tryitonline.net

moonheart08

kk

Pavel

@moonheart08 Although you should probably link an interpreter/compiler and not an essay.

moonheart08

True :P

But there are so many implementations deciding on which is rather hard

Changed the link

in the TIO chat

H.PWiz

03:10

I've found a compiler that works for this. Although, I can't find an article fr it anywhere

PhiNotPi

Another dead project we should bring back: the Hell, World! language. The goal being to create a non-esolang with the worst imaginable syntax, by combining features from many existing languages.

ASCII-only

@PhiNotPi so, like anti-VSL? or a mix between the worst parts of JS, PHP and Perl?

DLosc

@PhiNotPi If it's trying to be as bad as possible, doesn't that in itself make it an esolang?

MD XF

@NieDzejkob PLQ script needs a slight tweak, totallyhuman has too many answers and his count is going off the board

ASCII-only

@PhiNotPi would a language with functions being the only syntax feature count as a non-esolang

PhiNotPi

03:22

@DLosc Not really, as in it's about treading the fine line, where someone looking at it wouldn't recognize it as being as esolang by normal standards, but it ends up being really painful to program in for "normal" reasons.

H.PWiz

Perhaps this counts as an interpreter on TIO, but I doubt it

ASCII-only

wait. it isn't 1-based yet

Dennis

@H.PWiz Having an interpreter on TIO is not a requirement, and this is in fact the intended solution.

H.PWiz

Nice, but I couldn't find an article anywhere

Could you link one please

Dennis

The language is C.

MD XF

03:25

@Dennis WAIT WHAT

noooo I thought of 8cc but I forgot that the language has to be on TIO/esolangs/wikipedia not the compiler :(

H.PWiz

Oh, right...

Pavel

@Dennis Hold on, why does it output weird Unicode and not ASCII?

MD XF

@Pavel because TIO is UTF-8 internally probably

Dennis

Those are ASCII control characters. How your browser renders them isn't up to me.

MD XF

I'm really mad at myself that I didn't test 8cc out now

Pavel

03:27

@MDXF But PPCG defines a language to be an implementation.

Dennis

The PLQ's spec clearly distinguishes between languages and their implementations.

Pavel

Also, 8cc is on TIO, just in /opt/elvm-ir/bin/ and accessed through bash or something else rather than being in the main language list.

Dennis

I agree it's borderline, but a bit of misdirection is part of CnR imho.

H.PWiz

@Dennis Is this 8cc, or specifically ELVM-IR related

Destructible Lemon

the pygame.draw.ellipse has gaps in the outlines when width is specified and the ellipse is thin

lol

03:33

What was that esolang that uses korean and chinese characters

I forgot its name

H.PWiz

Sclipting?

Dennis

@H.PWiz Good question. I checked, and it only works in the ELVM fork of 8cc. That makes sense, since ELVM doesn't support command-line arguments, which is why main's first argument isn't set to 1.

quartata

I think this would fall afoul of "not requiring boilerplate code" though

I'm kinda struggling with a similar issue right now

lol

@H.PWiz Oh ok thanks gotta add a bounty on my challenge for making a Sclipting solution

Dennis

There are tons of languages that are transpiled to other languages instead of being compiled to bytecode. I don't think this is any different, especially since 8cc and eli come from the same repo.

@PhiNotPi How is 1-based indexing bad syntax? :P

PhiNotPi

03:35

@Dennis Someone else added that.

Pavel

@Dennis Because it's not consistent. For example, if statements are zero-indexed.

lol

Oh nvm it enables in 1 hour

quartata

well in that case

I think I'll go for this

Dennis

@Pavel I think I'm having a parser error. How do you index an if statement?

Pavel

@Dennis So you know how C treats 0 as false and all else as true? Hell, World!'s if statements treat all values as separate cases. An if takes a list of code blocks and evaluates the nth one, where n is the expression passed to if.

If you want to have a simple if/else block, the condition must be converted to 0 or 1.

It's almost like a particularly annoying switch/case, really.

Dennis

03:42

Marvelous.

lol

Do you think I can embed Google Assistant on a device smaller than the Raspberry Pi Zero, like the ESP8266, or is it too much?

Dennis

I wonder how hard it would be to write Jelly programs if the chain rules it used depended on the program's hash or something.

DLosc

@Pavel Huh, that's QBasic's ON ... GOTO, basically.

lol

@Dennis Basically making sources not even knowing what it would do?

Dennis

Well, the source would know. But you'd have to rewrite your program from the beginning every time you add another atom.

lol

03:48

Or you can write the hash first and bruteforce the source

Destructible Lemon

@Dennis I think not knowing was applied to the person making sources, not applied to sources being made not knowing

Dennis

Ah, OK.

@lol And pray the source with the correct hash is the program you were trying to write.

This sounds like a lot of fun. I think I'm going to do this.

lol

Or we can mine sources like its done in cryptocurrency :P

Destructible Lemon

@lol that seems unethical, with the amount of power cryptocurrencies take

lol

Yeah, it does

Dennis

03:52

I like it. Proof of pain instead of proof of work.

lol

Let's just not make some CodeCoin thing

Pavel

Hmm, create PPCG-coin, hand it out as rewards for good golfs?

mudkip201

lol

Dennis

@lol It wouldn't be the worst coin yet, but I wasn't planning to.

PhiNotPi

Idea: some kind of currency focused on code execution, like the ability to make smart contracts and stuff. Then we could start like a big distributed crowdfunding organization with the coin.

Blue Bug

03:53

nice people on interent can anyone help me by visitng my website and seeing you can see ANYTHING and ANYTHING at all QQ this is driving me mad

blu3bug.com

lol

Speaking of cryptocurrencies, Can each blockchain be each program?

Pavel

@BlueBug Nope, it dead

Blue Bug

ARHRGHGHAWHRHG

PhiNotPi

@BlueBug very blank

Blue Bug

NNNNOooooOOoo0000

sobs on the floor @Pavel @PhiNotPi ty for the help though <3

Destructible Lemon

03:55

@Pavel no crypto

PhiNotPi

@BlueBug I have felt a great disturbance in the force.

lol

Uhm

Blue Bug

@PhiNotPi ty for the feedback, I will include that to my customer service agent that's trying to help me right now

lol

That doesn't sound like what a blue bug would make, but I understand the pain :)

Blue Bug

oh wait it is showing now

lol

03:57

Hmm I see nothing

But its not a 404

Pavel

@lol Webserver problems transcend species, as @Mego can tell you.

Blue Bug

if you press Ctrl+F5 it refreshes then show you "hello world" I just found out

lol

No it doesn't

It shows me "Hello World 2.0"

moonheart08

@PhiNotPi uh, you mean Ethereum? :P

Blue Bug

@lol YESSSSSSSSSSS

lol

03:59

hmm

I need to get a domain too

because I am going to make an app

Blue Bug

why does my webpage display blank but then "hello world" once after you press Ctrl+F5 ? This is madness

lol

and I need a website for it

Blue Bug

@lol The process is surprisingly easy man. I just started my own website domain.

lol

I don't have much money ಥ_ಥ

PhiNotPi

I have a domain, but I haven't really been maintaining it (what else is new)

lol

04:04

And I am going to name my app 'Hitch' but 'Hit.ch' is occupied by some company :(

PhiNotPi

A domain is like $10/year.

Blue Bug

server is expansive though

lol

Does GoDaddy still work

Blue Bug

I am paying 10 dollar.month for my domain

Pavel

@lol GoDaddy works, but managed to become the most expensive option.

PhiNotPi

04:05

@BlueBug What's the extension on that? And who's hosting your site?

lol

What's the 'inexpensive' option

Blue Bug

@PhiNotPi bluehost I am just trusting words of folks since they seem to have a good reputation

@lol the price seems to get lower as much as to "2 dollar per month" if you pay for "24 months ahead of time"

PhiNotPi

I use internet.bs for my registration needs.

Webhosting is basically whoever offers the best free plan.

Pavel

@lol There are dozens, e.g. greengeeks.com

PhiNotPi

Redhat used to offer a great free plan, but that got downgraded.

Dennis

04:08

hiformance.com/budget-vps-hosting starts at 3 USD/month and gets you a VPS with root access.

Not sure if inexpensive or downright cheap though.

moonheart08

Lets find out

PhiNotPi

Also, RIP the "KOTH server", and also like 3 other websites I had worked on.

Pavel

@Dennis Is that what you use for tio.run?

moonheart08

Cheap

That's cheap

lol

D: Hitch.com redirects to sonypictures.com/movies/hitch WHY

WHY SONY WHY

DLosc

04:10

@Dennis This sounds like Jelly + Malbolge. Jellbolge?

Dennis

@Pavel No, the web server is identical to the arena servers, so they can be swapped if it has to be rebooted or something went wrong.

lol

Let's go for 'CryptoJelly' for no reason at all

moonheart08

@lol @Pavel you two are evil

Pavel

@Dennis So how did you register the domain?

@DLosc i.imgur.com/JGYSRXf.mp4

Dennis

@Pavel Ah, Namecheap.

lol

04:12

@moonheart08 Why

Pavel

@moonheart08 Why's that

moonheart08

wait

wrong persons

lol

persons?

moonheart08

@Dennis YOU're evil

Pavel

@Dennis Domains starting at 88 cents? We have a winner.

moonheart08

04:13

:42807263

huh

i thought that would quote

lol

@moonheart08 He's the moderator

:P

moonheart08

@lol good point

lol

and he

Pavel

@moonheart08 But why

lol

is not evil

moonheart08

04:14

but cryptographic Jelly is evil no matter which way you turn it

afk cat fight

lol

Umm I think you misunderstood it

moonheart08

back. probably

lol

Whois on 'hitch.io' says TLD not supported :(

Why is there too many unmaintained-but-still-hosted websites

Oh cool

it's selling on GoDaddy

but GoDaddy is expensive

Pavel

Does anyone know how you unignore a user?

DJMcMayhem

@Pavel Lol

I remember that

Dennis

04:29

@Pavel chat.stackexchange.com/users/242914?tab=prefs

Pavel

@Dennis Thanks

Downgoat

It's hard to realize how insanely crappy and slow Electron apps are until you switch to a native app.

I switched from Atom to Sublime text and my computer no longer feels like a banana

4

Pavel

@Downgoat That said, Visual Studio Code is insanely well-optimized.

Downgoat

eeehhh

MD XF

What should happen with this? It doesn't meet the challenge criteria (A valid programming language is one which meets all three of these criteria: It has an English Wikipedia article, an esolangs article or a Rosetta Code article at the time this challenge was posted, or is on Try It Online!) but it's already been cracked

quartata

04:39

@Downgoat I know

It's seriously depressing that this is supposed to be the future of UIs

Especially when people combine it with React

Downgoat

Apparently all the JS people on twitter say that "opls JS is amazing language because idk any other language and it has functions" and now we have doorlocks and space suits that think [] == ""

quartata

this is very uncharacteristic of you

Esolanging Fruit

@quartata Yep, I was just thinking "Wait, isn't Downgoat the ES6 guy?"

Pavel

@Downgoat I just pretend that == is intended to be like the Perl smart-match operator.

quartata

I bet it's working on PPCG v2

Maybe having to churn on a bunch of vanilla ES5 for production has worn his horns down or something

Pavel

04:44

PPCGv2 uses basically pure JS iirc, no frameworks or libraries.

moonheart08

ES6 <3

Esolanging Fruit

Underload has a better execution model than JS.

quartata

@Pavel that's what I'm saying

Downgoat

@quartata After doing a project in not-JS I have seen the light.

12

Pavel

@quartata Right, I was giving context

quartata

04:46

@Downgoat what project

Downgoat

@quartata I did some larger apps w/ Swift

moonheart08

@EsolangingFruit true, but i've done so much in ECMAScript there is no turning back lol

quartata

@Downgoat nice

Pavel

Swift is nice, but suffers from being percieved as Mac-only in the same way C# is percieved as being Windows-only.

Esolanging Fruit

@moonheart08 Well here's another recommendation:

they call it "brainfuck" but it doesn't have implicit type coercions for equality so it makes more sense than JS

quartata

04:48

@Pavel well, Windows support literally came out about a year ago

Esolanging Fruit

@Downgoat Hey, Haskell thinks [] == "" and it has one of the strongest type systems I know of

Pavel

@quartata No way. I definitely remember using Swift on windows months ago

quartata

I'm bad at words

It's not very good at any rate

Certainly not compared to a decade and a half of Mono

@EsolangingFruit but for different reasons

And you'd never see that in actual code

The array would have a proper type

Esolanging Fruit

@quartata Though calling strings lists of characters was an equally bad design decision

quartata

@EsolangingFruit I disagree

Esolanging Fruit

04:51

@quartata Reasons?

Downgoat

Swift is a nice language on the front but once you realize how much crap Foundation it is built on it's not super-attractive for cross-platform apps.

quartata

The abstract symbol model Python et al uses makes encodings a pain imo

Lists of code points are nice

Downgoat

It's built as a successor to Objective-C but much too dependent upon the same APIs and underlying implementation despite being two distinct languages

quartata

Erlang does it really bad though

@Downgoat this isn't the real issue, Cocoa is

Pavel

@EsolangingFruit Wat. That's the best way to represent a string.

Downgoat

04:54

@Pavel not really

gets weird with unicode combining character things

Wheat Wizard

@quartata How does Erlang do it?

Esolanging Fruit

@Pavel Unicode isn't even the problem. Lists. Not arrays. Linked lists.

quartata

@WheatWizard Strings are literally lists of integers

No distinction at all

@EsolangingFruit ...

Pavel

@quartata signed, 32-bit integers?

Wheat Wizard

Oh that's not that bad, I spend tons of time trying to get my Prolog code to convert to lists of code points, because the buiiltin strings/atoms are so awful.

quartata

04:56

first off ropes are actually pretty nice

@WheatWizard the main trouble is that the REPL uses a heuristic to tell when to display something as a string and when to display it as a list

Wheat Wizard

that's pretty awful

quartata

@Pavel I think they're longs?

@WheatWizard luckily you don't work with those kind of strings often

Esolanging Fruit

@Downgoat I'm not aware of any language that represents strings as sequences of grapheme clusters. Even Rust, which is supposed to be disciplined about strings and encodings, simply stores strings as UTF-8 and doesn't provide an out-of-the-box way to iterate over grapheme clusters.

There's an external library for reversing a string.

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