The Nineteenth Byte

HyperNeutrino

23:00

(like Maltysen just told me lol)

ATaco

(Sorry, my mathematics is Highschool at best)

HyperNeutrino

lol rip

caird coinheringaahing

@ATaco Same here. All this "group theory" and "lemma". Honestly, trig is all a mathematician needs :P

HyperNeutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing ಠ_ಠ

once I prove -a = -1 * a it will be so much easier

caird coinheringaahing

@HyperNeutrino Also, a*0==0. Is fact. You don't need to prove it

ATaco

23:04

It's fact, but not an axiom.

So we can't "assume" it.

caird coinheringaahing

@ATaco What about the fundamental rule that anything times nothing is nothing.

ATaco

Still not an Axiom of the challenge.

caird coinheringaahing

AKA a*0=0

ATaco

We don't even have the Axiom of Identity, which I'm sure is a mistake.

caird coinheringaahing

@ATaco So what can we assume?

HyperNeutrino

23:05

@ATaco uh yes we do

a+0=a

a*1=a

ATaco

But do we know that a=a?

caird coinheringaahing

@HyperNeutrino Ergo, a=a Whatever maths you're doing, it doesn't look difficult

HyperNeutrino

yes

ATaco

Or is that something we get as a freebee anyway, as I said, only Highschool maths here.

HyperNeutrino

I think that's by the definition of = but I'm not sure

caird coinheringaahing

23:07

I still don't understand how a*0=0 is wrong

ATaco

It's not wrong, it's just not assumed.

HyperNeutrino

it's not wrong

it's just that you have to prove it yourself

ATaco

This question lists what we can assume.

caird coinheringaahing

If it is not wrong, it is right. Logic. QED

ATaco

!(!p) = p

HyperNeutrino

23:10

@cairdcoinheringaahing Does the set of all sets not containing themselves contain itself?

It can neither be right nor wrong.

caird coinheringaahing

@HyperNeutrino "not containing themselves contain itself" I don't care what Maths you're doing, your English is contradicting your point

HyperNeutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing exactly my point though

caird coinheringaahing

@HyperNeutrino Then what is it?

HyperNeutrino

if it does contain itself, then by definition it does not contain itself -><-

if it doesn't contain itself, then by definition it does contain itself -><-

caird coinheringaahing

Uhh, why twice?

HyperNeutrino

23:12

I should rephrase that to the statement: The set of and only of all sets not containing themselves contains itself

@cairdcoinheringaahing read again, I stated it oppositely the second time

ATaco

To rephrase, assume a list exists that contains all lists that do not contain themselves. Does this list contain itself?

HyperNeutrino

(also I needed to add "contains and only contains")

caird coinheringaahing

@ATaco Assuming that it doesn't contain itself, then yes, it contains itself. See the problem here? :P

ATaco

... Yes, that's exactly the point.

The fact that there is a problem there is what we're getting at.

caird coinheringaahing

So your point is that your logic is broken? Seems like a useless point

HyperNeutrino

23:14

@cairdcoinheringaahing no the point is that your logic is broken

ATaco

That's a rather hostile retort.

HyperNeutrino

5 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

If it is not wrong, it is right. Logic. QED

That statement is not always true...

ATaco

Although I'm pretty sure NOT(NOT(p)) == p is fairly accepted.

caird coinheringaahing

@ATaco Sorry if it came off that way, I'm just befuzzled

HyperNeutrino

@ATaco Yeah because typically p is defined :P

See, the statement assumes that everything is either right or wrong, but there are statements that are contradictory and thus neither right nor wrong :P

John Dvorak

23:16

Law of excluded middle

HyperNeutrino

@JohnDvorak what is that exactly?

caird coinheringaahing

I'm just going to ask, is there any point in trying to get you to help me understand this, or should I just go to sleep?

HyperNeutrino

IIRC modus tollens is a part of that law? or am I being dump again

ATaco

The assumption of !(p=WRONG) = RIGHT assumes that p must only be WRONG or RIGHT

John Dvorak

p || !p

HyperNeutrino

23:17

@cairdcoinheringaahing In teaching, we ourselves learn (deja vu?) but you should sleep if it's bedtime hour for you :P

@JohnDvorak ah ok

Destructible Lemon

hello

HyperNeutrino

hi

Destructible Lemon

so, for my koth, should there be a top speed?

ATaco

However, as with the contradictory statement, p may be WRONG, RIGHT, or SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT

Destructible Lemon

and a range of sight?

(I kind of want sight to be limited so I could make a neural network)

caird coinheringaahing

23:18

@HyperNeutrino deja vu because you said it a few hours ago regarding JHT, and it's well past my "bedtime" (00:18 here) so... Toodles all o/

HyperNeutrino

au revoir o/

ATaco

It's in a sort of Superposition between WRONG and RIGHT :P

HyperNeutrino

sure :P

but isn't a superposition both a and b not neither a nor b?

ATaco

A superpostion is non-deterministic either a or b

HyperNeutrino

ok

ATaco

23:20

Which, in this case, almost works.

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino A superposition is a superposition of both of those?

John Dvorak

A superposition is just a description of a perfectly determined quantum state. Non-determinism is a property of observation. Observation may or may not be a real thing.

HyperNeutrino

have any of you played superposition 2048?

Destructible Lemon

superposition can't really be described with regular words?

ATaco

It can be described with rigorous proofs however.

Destructible Lemon

23:21

you can't say it's a and b, or it's either a or b non-deterministically, you can only say it is a superposition

is what I mean

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino no pls link

@DestructibleLemon Not exactly

Destructible Lemon

I mean you can describe what superposition means I guess

Adám

@HyperNeutrino What is that?

ASCII-only

IIRC a quantum state is basically like a unit vector in 3d space or something?

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Destructible Lemon

23:24

can anyone help me with my koth idea pls

HyperNeutrino

@Adám like normal 2048 but some tiles are in a superposition of two values (one is the next value after the other (double)) and the superposition isn't determined until it needs to

so like a/2a + a/2a = 2a/4a

ASCII-only

So it has a certain chance to be a and a certain chance to be b, depending on what you use to measure, the more aligned it is the closer the chances are to 0 and 1?

HyperNeutrino

a/2a+a=2a

a/2a+2a=4a

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino pls. link.

HyperNeutrino

a/2a+2a/4a=4a

@ASCII-only uhyohyo.net/quantum2048

also it's not always two adjacent values nvm

ASCII-only

23:26

@HyperNeutrino This is a terrible idea because it's very misleading

@HyperNeutrino ... you used the wrong name

HyperNeutrino

rip

well I haven't played it in like a year :P

also quantum chess looks cool

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Looks much easier than normal 2048.

HyperNeutrino

you usually have more chances to save yourself (?)

Adám

got 13600 with mechanical play

ASCII-only

I can give myself infinite score in quantum 2048

yay bug

Adám

23:30

@ASCII-only how?

ASCII-only

> quamtum

@Adám Should have taken a screenshot

Not sure why but the tiles didn't merge

from the top right corner down, it was a 2, 2/4, and 4/8 IIRC

Adám

@ASCII-only m is a superposition of r and n

ASCII-only

So maybe a conflict

@Adám Ah I see

Destructible Lemon

can anyone help me with designing my car fighting thing koth pls

Maltysen

@HyperNeutrino idk, I think you can as long as you use them only for substitutions like the axioms, but we'll have to wait and see

HyperNeutrino

23:39

yeah ok; I was hoping lemmas would be allowed but idk

Downgoat

@ASCII-only of a particle or system

HyperNeutrino

name idea for a number/list based golflang?

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino lum?

Maltysen

@HyperNeutrino lst

Destructible Lemon

uh how about a metal umlaut too

Downgoat

23:45

@HyperNeutrino Cartographer

Destructible Lemon

lüm

Downgoat

list -> map a list -> creating map -> cartography

HyperNeutrino

hm. lum sounds interesting (reminds me of something to do with luminescent) I think lst also sounds quite nice but I don't like it that much because SO people who don't know that they should name variables after that they're used for always name lists lst (assuming they don't rename list and not get why things break)

Maltysen

@HyperNeutrino scorecard

like in golf

HyperNeutrino

@Downgoat huh interesting idea

Maltysen

23:46

it has lists of numbers

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino Carto might be more distinct though

HyperNeutrino

I personally prefer to make my language name typable for most (english) people

Destructible Lemon

also get a metal umlaut on that

Cartö

HyperNeutrino

so like Cart(o:)?

ok

Destructible Lemon

cart(o:) looks like a cool stylised name

especially if it resembles the syntax

HyperNeutrino

23:47

cart(:o)

ATaco

I must have more information about this lang.

HyperNeutrino

but no I don't think it would resemble the syntax

Destructible Lemon

@HyperNeutrino or that

HyperNeutrino

:o

:P

Destructible Lemon

could also get some kool letters on that

Karto

HyperNeutrino

23:48

now give the a and o accents

like give the a a grace or something like that

Destructible Lemon

actually maybe I can use that for my programming game

ATaco

Kártö

Adám

@HyperNeutrino List.

HyperNeutrino

(I was going to use grave but acute works too)

Destructible Lemon

speaking of which please help me with that

HyperNeutrino

23:49

(that is called acute right?)

@DestructibleLemon 0/10 you've asked like 10 times in the last hour and nobody's offered to help which at least for me means I'm not particularly interested enough in a KoTH enough to devote time to designing one

Destructible Lemon

;_;

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Yes. I should know.

HyperNeutrino

@Adám might consider

ATaco

It's too complex for me.

HyperNeutrino

@Adám :P ah ok

Destructible Lemon

23:50

Kärtö

ümläüts förëvër

ATaco

Kãrtõ

Adám

@DestructibleLemon Wouldn't be surprised if that was an island in Sweden.

ASCII-only

@HyperNeutrino cart(o_O)

HyperNeutrino

:P

ATaco

Nono, cart(ಠ_ಠ)

Adám

23:51

@HyperNeutrino Or maybe Lst stylized to LST.

HyperNeutrino

ಠ_ಠ

ḶṢṬ

Destructible Lemon

no

Maltysen

oooh maybe lst with brackets as letters

@HyperNeutrino [_ST

Destructible Lemon

ĻŞŢ

HyperNeutrino

157

[_5+

ATaco

23:53

This'd be easier to name if we had any idea of the syntax.

HyperNeutrino

yeah I should spec it first

just stack-based with postfix adverbs

Adám

@DestructibleLemon goo.gl/maps/zwEVh2U6V4s

Destructible Lemon

0/10 doesn't actually have umlauts

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Adverbs? What about the verbs?

HyperNeutrino

stack-based

so postfix

I'm debating over whether to call them atoms/quicks, verbs/adverbs, or functions/operators (essentially whose naming scheme to steal :P)

but that's not important until I've actually made it :P

Destructible Lemon

23:55

call them umlauts

ATaco

RProgN2 calls 'em Concepts.

HyperNeutrino

I might also make it prefix/infix and postfix operators (like APL)

Adám

@HyperNeutrino Jelly's, J's, or APL's.

HyperNeutrino

@Adám yup :P

Adám

@DestructibleLemon Actually not a bad idea. Call them vowels and umlauts.

ATaco

23:57

(Nah, call 'em Concepts)

Adám

In that an umlaut modifies a vowel (like an adverb modifies a verb)

@ATaco What about the concept-modifiers?

ATaco

Most things in RProgN2 can't effect other things, so it's just more concepts.

HyperNeutrino

that's an interesting idea

ATaco

If they do, they're doing it at a post-compile stage.

HyperNeutrino

but most consonants don't have accents

I'd need to pick a good code-page for this

ATaco

23:59

Win-1252.

Windows-1252

Windows-1252 or CP-1252 is a 1 byte character encoding of the Latin alphabet, used by default in the legacy components of Microsoft Windows in English and some other Western languages (other languages use different default encodings). It is likely the most-used 8-bit character encoding in the world. As of August 2017, 0.8% of all web sites used Windows-1252, but at the same time 4.7% used ISO 8859-1, which by HTML5 standards should be considered the same encoding, so that 5.5% of web sites effectively used Windows-1252. In addition most web browsers will correctly render it if encountered in text...

Adám

I thought of making an APL with colorful icons, where the atoms/verbs/functions were called icons and the quicks/adverbs/operators were called effects.

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