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3:00 PM
Everyone should just use × for multiplication
Hey, at least it's not Perl operators.
@BusinessCat Yes, but how many do?
@BusinessCat assuming they have good codepage
e.g. 05AB1E uses * for multiplication, × for string repetition and for array repetition
@BusinessCat But then we have the problem of confusing it with x and/or X. And there's also the cross product, which should always use ×.
Jelly uses × for multiplication and for array repetition
3:02 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer Wat. I would at least expect it to be the other way around.
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Stephen SEvery Nth Line in Source Outputs N code-challenge source-layout Heavily inspired by Hello, World! (Every other character) Related to my other Sandbox post Every Nth Char in Source Outputs N; is it a dupe? Write a program that outputs 1. When the first, third, fifth, etc. lines are removed, it...

@EriktheOutgolfer Ninja'd.
@Adám (ninja...?)
How about Cartesian product?
is there a language with a built in for tetration?
3:03 PM
that's p in Jelly
@Uriel I don't think so D:
@Adám in the beginning I though APL's ↑ was for it, but then I realized knuth was just born when it was created
@Uriel We may get that as "a three-glyph" soon.
What is a "three glyph"?
3-char glyph?
@ZacharyT glyph that takes 3 bytes
3:05 PM
that's never done in history afaict
Oh, 3 bytes of UTF-8?
@ZacharyT APL doesn't really use multi-glyph built-ins, but some combinations of glyphs act like single units. E.g. +.× is cross product, which is really made of three built-ins, but you can look at it as a three-glyph. Likewise with summation, +/
@ZacharyT yes, because they are not on the classic set, like the key operator
Posting this some time today, any input on it?
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Stephen SRemove Spaces, Maintaining Capitalization //Better title would be appreciated code-golf string Your input will be an English sentence, phrase, or word. It will only contain a-zA-Z' -,.!?. Your task is to take the input, remove spaces, and then redistribute capitalization such that letters at i...

Tetration would be *⍢⍟ if we get .
3:07 PM
@Adám so 5 bytes, considering is a UTF
It's in the classic set, isn't it?
@Adám what is that supposed to do?
@Uriel Yeah, APL isn't a golfing language.
@ZacharyT No.
@Adám Dyalog can do it in 3, right? Or am I misreading something: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/97029/65836
3:09 PM
not sure if one glyph though
I think I'll just create a Help, Wardoq like-language whose 254 commands are for mult, power, tetration, pentation, hexation...
That's , sorry, I misremembered.
@StephenS Neat, but that isn't a single entity, you'd need parentheses to use it in a tacit function.
@Uriel the other 2 are addition and primality testing?
@EriktheOutgolfer ofcourse, that's why 254
3:10 PM
then how should we handle inputs, how should we be able to push numbers?
@Uriel no no no, make empty program do addition with 2 inputs and primality with 1, and then Hello, World! with none
@EriktheOutgolfer like the plus command, implicit input of 2 numbers
@EriktheOutgolfer f⍢g does f while the argument(s) are under the influence of g, and then negates the influence when done.
@Adám ooh that's cool
@Uriel how are we supposed to reuse inputs then? ;)
@StephenS brilliant. just saved me 2 more for 256-ion and 257-ion, considering addition is 1-ion
3:12 PM
or push negative numbers?
Bitbucket seems to hate me.
@EriktheOutgolfer "Help, KnuthDoq does its best to guess the programmer intention" (copied shamelessly from Bubblegum)
kind of unusable for real programming isn't it?
@ZacharyT huh?
@ZacharyT that's because atlassian hates everyone
*⍢⍟ is exponentiation under the influence of logarithm, i.e. tetration. Just like exponentiation is ×⍢⍟.
3:13 PM
atlassian is expensive
@EriktheOutgolfer No, just reserve one of your constants for starting Jelly code with the input from your code
@LuisMendo yes, I'm leaving, editing your profile like that is apparently how you have to confirm ownership of the account
the account deletion process takes ages
why are you leaving?
but my hatred of Stack Exchange was leaking into my love of code golf; I thought my love for code golf would make Stack Exchange more palatable, but it happened the other way round
3:14 PM
Q: How are bytes count in Unicode-based languages?

RuslanI often see characters counted as "bytes" in languages like Charcoal and 05AB1E. Is this correct to do? What are the rules for counting bytes in Unicode-based languages?

I'm fine with the community here, and have no problem with it
I just can't tolerate the website itself
@ais523 hatred for what? the voting system?
@Uriel the Stack Exchange software as a whole
I'm not convinced any of the features work for their intended purpose
if a feature happens to be useful, it's only because we're misusing it
in particular, the reputation system encourages people to optimize for triviality
@Adám of course it is
people are either driven away from the site, or else end up adopting a culture of just doing easy stuff because hard stuff doesn't get rewarded
3:16 PM
@ais523 that's because stack exchange was never intended to host competitions
it was intended to collaboratively create an FAQ about programming but it doesn't even do that well
but it works even worse on PPCG than it does elsewhere
@ais523 Maybe, but you still get rewarded for going against the flow: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/111932/65836
10k rep, less because of rep cap, is nothing to scoff at
anyway, just talking about it's making me really upset again; I don't want to end up hating code golf as much as I hate Stack Exchange, but the two are starting to become connected in my mind
the community here is great; hopefully some day we can end up on a site that's less of an issue
@Uriel, did you say that randint(0,n-1) or randint(1,n) should be one byte?
(Did you know you get a badge for deleting your account? You have to edit your profile to confirm your ownership, and editing your profile gets you a badge. Of course this doesn't matter long-term because the account gets deleted anyway, but it still struck me as a nice miniature example of how the incentives here are all wrong.)
anyway, I hadn't really meant to make a big public show of all this
3:21 PM
I don't see how trivial challenges receiving more attention and votes than harder challenges is an issue with the SE software, it's clearly an issue with the mindset of the community.
hopefully I'll see many of you later on, somewhere else, but now and here I've given up.
@Mayube A lot of it comes from the HNQ
@ais523 We can catch you on esolangs, right? If we really want to
anyway on an unrelated note
sed's basic regex doesn't seem to support capture groups and backreferences
yep, you can also email me, I think my email address is public
I don't go on IRC as often as I used to but I hope to be there more often in future
@Mayube just responding to this, it's also true with answers in addition to questions, although for a different reason; trivial answers are faster to write (minutes rather than days), an answer that really takes a lot of thought and effort won't appear until days or weeks after the question and nobody is looking at it then
3:25 PM
so uh, how could I replace x_suffix with x, and y_suffix with y, but not replace z_suffix? s/[^z]_suffix//g doesn't work because it would remove the last character of the thing too
anyway, bye
k, bye
Q: The dragon Curve sequence

Wheat WizardThe dragon curve sequence (or the regular paper folding sequence) is a binary sequence. a(n) is given by negation of the bit left of the least significant bit of n. For example to calculate a(2136) we first convert to binary: 100001011000 We find our least significant bit 100001011000 ...

3:30 PM
"An Empirical Comparison of the Accuracy Rates of Novices using the Quorum, Perl, and Randomo Programming Languages": ecs.victoria.ac.nz/foswiki/pub/Events/PLATEAU/Program/…
> Perl users were unable to write programs more accurately than those using a language designed by chance.
Yep. Perl is insane.
Interesting language with wildly different compilation targets: github.com/evanw/thinscript
@EriktheOutgolfer quite fast...
not talking about your speed of answering
but the speed of you changing your mind
0.o throw to output in JS, never thought of that: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/128862/65836
@LeakyNun well, basically I super-rushed...and then got a bit in a hurry to ninja the 05AB1E answer before you :P
3:36 PM
@EriktheOutgolfer you could have just changed your answer into 05ab1e?
I don't usually do that...
@EriktheOutgolfer If you catch grace period you're fine
@StephenS there are also up/downvotes that's why I don't practice that
I have two Python answers, one of which uses string manipulation and one of which uses math. Should I post them separately or is that too rep-bait-y
Can someone think of a catchy title that kind of means "Remove Spaces, Maintaining Capitalization"
3:40 PM
@HyperNeutrino I'd post them together, but I wouldn't hold it against you if you didn't.
Ah okay. Actually, I overwrote my longer one with the shorter one but I will put them together. Seems like a better idea, at least imo
@ais523 I know, I left english.stackexchange.com and I had to write that line in my profile. Sorry that you are leaving. You have been one of the most vaulable users in my opinion
wait did I miss something?
ais is leaving? D:
@HyperNeutrino It should still be in the chat atm look up
3:45 PM
hm. after reading that i do agree with everything ais says, unfortunately
@HyperNeutrino ya, but I think the community should counteract that, if we give more bounties and what not for harder challenges it would really be cool
in fact it's definitely a community issue. We even had this exact discussion in meta, and it was concluded that the community simply prefer trivial challenges because they want to spend time golfing their code, not figuring out how to complete the challenge in the first place
That is true. Personally I find harder challenges more interesting, and additionally, some challenges are so trivial that there is no way to golf them (add two numbers; seriously, you can't golf +).
@HyperNeutrino That's for some languages, like 2D languages, that have it harder. And even in my language: to add, I have to set a sequence equal to A + B, then get the first item in the sequence
@StephenS What's a 2D language?
3:50 PM
Languages whose code is structured in a 2D grid, like ><>
@Jim 2 dimensional; you move around a grid of 1 char commands
Like Befunge.
Oh like Hexagony
@Jim Yup, or Cubix, or w/e
3:52 PM
That one's weird though because it doesn't move around a square grid.
Or Triangular.
@Uriel while you're at it, you can make a 2D language that can move around one a 1 to 256-sided grid
Are there any 3D langs?
@Adám Cubix kind of, right?
we discussed the idea of a 3D lang where the IP has pitch, yaw and.. the other one, that affect how it works
3:54 PM
That sounds very interesting. Did you ever implement it?
no, we just came to the conclusion that it'd be a cool idea, but a total bitch to implement
@MartinEnder what does $+0 do?
@Mayube Make a challenge with a really solid spec, and offer a giant bounty :P
Does 05AB1E have an equivalent to Jelly's s?
What is it?
@LeakyNun $+ is the usually very useless alias for the group with the largest number
3:58 PM
I thought it reads "Does 05AB1E have an equivalent to Jelly?"
@MartinEnder I never knew that
looks like I really need to learn regex
@cairdcoinheringaahing Edits that are made to golf other people's submissions are not advised, so for future reviews, please Reject the edit with the reason that it deviates from the author's initial intentions. Suggestions are welcome but not edits.
@LeakyNun it's very very rare that it's actually useful for saving bytes. it would be a lot better if it referred to the last group that was actually used, but it doesn't.
@HyperNeutrino To add: if the user is < 10 rep, you can comment the changes for them
Yes, that too.
Anyway, will be back in about 15m.
4:00 PM
@LeakyNun do you have any esolangs/golflangs out there?
@Mayube I don't
Got it, ô.
@StephenS s/1/5
4:15 PM
CMC: Output falsey if input contains any invalid/ignored characters in the language used, or truthy if input only contains valid, significant chars in the language used (for the source)
MY, 3 bytes: 1E 01 27. (Every byte is valid).
@ZacharyT Does that get input and check the input? That's what I'm asking for
Well, every byte does something in MY (the majority just print Hello, World!), so there is no need to check it.
@Adám I've seen 4 and 5 dimensional langs.
@ZacharyT Ah, so if I give it Unicode as input, it'll ignore it and just parse the binary?
4:21 PM
1E receives a raw line of standard input and pushes it to the stack. 01 pushes 1 to the stack. And 27 outputs the top of the stack (followed by a new line)
I don't know, to be honest. It will either parse it as binary, or just spam Hello, World!
@ZacharyT So a source of ❤ ☀ ☆ ☂ ☻ ♞ ☯ ☭ ☢ € would should print out Hello World a bunch?
Possibly. Probably depends on the Python version running it.
@StephenS print(True)
@StephenS CJam, 17 bytes: q'␡,32>"kuvxy"--!, is a literal delete character
(CJam uses all printable ASCII except kuvxy)
@Uriel Really? Which?
4:28 PM
Actually I guess it should be 33> instead of 32>, spaces are ignored
Someone should do that in brain-flak
Yeah, Python2 just prints Hello, World! a bunch
And Python3 prints Hello, World! a lot less.
@StephenS Jelly, 4 bytes: ḟØJṆ
it not that wierd. I once wrote a python interface for arbitary-dimensional funge
How did you separate the dimensions?
4:31 PM
ØJ is codepage, and removes every char that is in Jelly's codepage, so if only chars in the codepage are in the input resulting array would be empty, i.e. falsy, otherwise it'd contain stuff, to it'd be truthy. is boolean not
@EriktheOutgolfer "ØJ is codepage" there's a builtin for that? 0.o ok then
@Uriel Makes sense.
@StephenS yep
for some reason MY beats this though...
@EriktheOutgolfer Just because all input is valid xD
The Hello World! challenge is the only reason why.
4:33 PM
but, if the input is encoded in JELLY...
Jelly, 1 byte: 1
Unless no-ops count as invalid.
that wasn't asked
@ZacharyT No-ops are ignored, that was the intent at least
@cairdcoinheringaahing Why did you approve this edit?
also many chars which are normally no-ops are often used in compressed strings
4:35 PM
35 mins ago, by HyperNeutrino
@cairdcoinheringaahing Edits that are made to golf other people's submissions are not advised, so for future reviews, please Reject the edit with the reason that it deviates from the author's initial intentions. Suggestions are welcome but not edits.
35 mins ago, by HyperNeutrino
@cairdcoinheringaahing Edits that are made to golf other people's submissions are not advised, so for future reviews, please Reject the edit with the reason that it deviates from the author's initial intentions. Suggestions are welcome but not edits.
damn slow internet
2fast4u ;) :P
AKA, ninja'd
4:36 PM
yeah there's no hope over a 12mbps internet connection
rip. yeah.
@Doorknob «changing while x%2==0 into while 1-x%2==0 saves one byte» hmmm.
Project idea: improve the stack snippet on the PPCG programming languages meta post.
@Uriel Lol.
To include more information such as year of creation, and fix cases where answerer != language creator, and maybe improve formatting.
4:41 PM
TIL Pyth is /pɪθ/
@Uriel wait a second what?
oh wait no it's just 1-x%2 lol
I didn't really read the edit because I'm like "Oh look, a golfing edit, reject".
And it wasn't even shorter than FryAmTheEggman's suggestion.
Pyth isn't /paɪθ/?
>>> len('while x%2==0')-len('while 1-x%2==0')==1
@Uriel there is no ==0 in the second one
@ZacharyT Apparently not!
while x%2==0
while 1-x%2
it should be /pyθ/, lol
4:44 PM
@LeakyNun I copied the comment
@LeakyNun We speak English. Not French (or insert language with /y/ here)
@StephenS Brain-flak, 764 bytes: Try it online!
That could be waaaay shorter, it's just the fastest thing I could crank out
notes to self: create a shortcut language for pyth and call it py.
@DJMcMayhem did you write that manually?
4:46 PM
Q: Trivial Answers get too many upvotes

HyperNeutrinoIt was recently brought up in chat that people are rewarded for trivial answers sometimes, which makes sense because this site is all about short code, but in other aspects, is bad because some answers that took a lot more work get very few upvotes in comparison. This might discourage people fro...

:o how did you do that so fast
A: Are the brackets fully matched?

DJMcMayhemBrain-Flak, 1101 bytes (non-competing) {({}<>)(<>())(<>{}<>)(({}))((((()()()()()){}){}){})({}[{}]<(())>){((<{}{}>))}{}{{ }{}(<{}>)((()))(()<>)(<><{}>)}{}(({}))((((()()()()()){}){}){}())({}[{}]<(())>){(( <{}{}>))}{}{{}{}(<{}>)((()))(()<>)({}[{}](<()>)){{}{}(<(())>)}{}{<>{{}}<>{{}}((<( )>))}{}(<><{}>

@NewMetaPosts kinda late...
Oh okay :P
I wrote ^^^ manually, and then modified it
4:47 PM
ah i see
That's why it's so ungolfy
oh ok
@DJMcMayhem Should I post this to main so that more people can see the cool answers to it? :P
Hey, @Uriel, which choice for a random command is better: randint(0,n) or randint(1,n) or randint(0,n-1)? I can't remember which one you said I should add.
all of them
4:47 PM
I bet it could be more like 300 bytes if I was trying to golf it down. (For the CMC, not the real answer) The algorithm is horribly inefficient
@StephenS How about sandbox?
@DJMcMayhem Well yeah, that first
I think the idea is cool, but there are some edge cases. For example, If I were to write a V answer. Lots of characters don't do anything, but can be in a string. Do those count or not?
@DJMcMayhem They would count as valid chars, unless I change the spec. Anything that the interpreter/compiler doesn't break on and doesn't completely ignore are "valid"
In that case, most answers would be 1 for the golfing languages.
So what if it's a language where literally every character isn't ignored?
4:50 PM
@ZacharyT I never said, but randint(1,n). then you can just choose a n larger by one and substract one to get randint(0,n)
@DJMcMayhem Then see the MY answer above :P cc @ZacharyT
@DJMcMayhem Scroll up and look at my answer in MY ( bitbucket.org/zacharyjtaylor/my-language/src/… )
@DJMcMayhem Maybe (gasp) make it popcon, if I can iron it out
oh bitbucket
Popcon is only worth doing if it's something where humans are better at judging the output then computers are.
4:51 PM
@HyperNeutrino Free private repositories aren't something to scoff at
Yeah, I don't want MY linked to my github
@HyperNeutrino What is this, like an inside joke?
I was looking for a repository
but I couldn't find it on github
(And please don't criticize my code)
Oh, so I actually helped you out?
4:54 PM
Perfect, now I can add more stuff to my website :D
But I need to write some stuff for tomorrow first D:
Should I even have a command for randint(1,n)?
Randomness is important.
@ZacharyT ofcourse
4:57 PM
I have a choice atom, and I'll have an APL-style iota, so that would just be an extra byte.
Eh, I'll go with randint(1,n)
CMC: Given a string, surround the smaller parts of it in alternating brackets between () and []. Since this is hard to explain, here's an example:
"Hello world" --> "(H[e(l[l(o[ ]w)o]r)l]d)"
ab -> ?
ah ok
And abc --> (a[b]c)
4:59 PM
@Doorknob @HyperNeutrino sorry about that. The SE formatting for edits messes with my head

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