The Nineteenth Byte

muddyfish

18:00

I'm very busy until end of friday so won't be able to help

And if I do, tell me I should be doing coursework

Riker

> is chatting

Erik the Outgolfer

Coursera?

muddyfish

@Riker indeed

Riker

go do coursework silly muddyfish

@EriktheOutgolfer I think he means just normal stuff, because exams are coming up soon-ish

Erik the Outgolfer

Wait Riker is moderator now.

Kritixi Lithos

18:01

Well done!

Erik the Outgolfer

Congratulations Riker, BTW.

Riker

thanks

Mistah Figgins

^^

Riker

also -1 dennis lied mods can't easily reply to themselves

or at least I can't find the button

that's more likely

Kritixi Lithos

I think there are secret mod rooms

Riker

18:02

there are

Mistah Figgins

Wait, why don't we all have that feature?

Riker

no clue

betseg

@MistahFiggins we can, not just easily

Riker

I think that woul be a good idea

Erik the Outgolfer

Because they are deleted private rooms I think.

Riker

18:03

@betseg I thought the reply button just appeared on your messages like it did for other people

but apparently not

Erik the Outgolfer

When did Dennis say that?

betseg

@Riker so how's being a mod feels like :P

Mistah Figgins

@betseg How though?

Riker

@EriktheOutgolfer i dunno, I'm fairly certain he has though

or maybe another ppcg mod idr

Mistah Figgins

I've wanted to a couple of times

Riker

18:04

@betseg scary as hell

Kritixi Lithos

Why?

Riker

if I screw up it's a much bigger deal than before

even when I click my user icon in the left edge it says "5 suspensions" -.-

betseg

@MistahFiggins you add ":35904426" or other message IDs in the beginning of messages to reply another message

Kritixi Lithos

I thought it'd be nice to ~~abuse chat~~ use chat powers responsibly

betseg

^^ you can do to own messages too

Erik the Outgolfer

18:05

Sandbox

Where you can play with chat features (except flagging) and ch...

3

betseg

@betseg example

TuxCopter

@Riker you're a mod? o_O

Mistah Figgins

@betseg Oh that makes sense

DJMcMayhem

@Riker Holy shit! Congrats on your diamond!

Riker

yes, and thanks

DJMcMayhem

18:07

I'm only slightly jealous :P

Riker

:P

Kritixi Lithos

You're probably the youngest mod on SE right now :P

DJMcMayhem

Maybe ever

Riker

think so yeah, though I've heard an astronomy mod is young also

@DJMcMayhem I dunno

Erik the Outgolfer

@DJMcMayhem It's not a good thing for busy schedules I think. I haven't nominated anywhere so far because I have an active real-life schedule.

betseg

18:09

@DJMcMayhem how can i check if $TERM is linux on Vim?

Riker

@DJMcMayhem ironic: the other young mod that I know of also has a unusual name

Kritixi Lithos

@EriktheOutgolfer Yet I seem to always make more time for SE than my homework

7

Riker

@KritixiLithos don't we all, don't we all

DJMcMayhem

@betseg not sure what you mean

betseg

an environment variable

Riker

18:10

$TERM is a variable in bash

Erik the Outgolfer

Me too, I don't usually have much homework, I use the weekend. However, homework isn't the only thing I do.

Riker

mine is xterm-256color

I think he's asking how to access system variables from inside vim, specifically $TERM

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, I know. But it wouldn't ever be Linux and you wouldn't want to check within vim

Kritixi Lithos

What terminal do you use @Riker?

Riker

but I have solarized dark theme

Kritixi Lithos

18:11

*emulator

betseg

@DJMcMayhem its linux on virtual terminals

Kritixi Lithos

Do you use Apple's default Terminal.app?

Riker

yes

I've used iterm2 in the past however

Kritixi Lithos

I use XQuartz

Riker

@KritixiLithos oh, apparently my first message did'nt send, I said "stock from OS X"

Kritixi Lithos

18:12

Better colour support

Riker

sorry about that

DJMcMayhem

@betseg OK. Well, $TERM works just fine for me from the vim command line

Riker

wait wat vim has a command line

Erik the Outgolfer

Note: Mine is xterm-256color too. I don't use xterm.

DJMcMayhem

@Riker yeah, like :w

betseg

18:12

@DJMcMayhem i wanted something like this: github.com/DJMcMayhem/dotFiles/blob/master/.vimrc#L1 ;_;

Riker

oh cool

Kritixi Lithos

Hence mine is just xterm (at least I think that's why)

DJMcMayhem

Any command starting with a colon is a vimscript or ex command

Riker

ah

betseg

@EriktheOutgolfer just backward compatibility things

Riker

18:13

@KritixiLithos how'd ya do that?

betseg

i use GNOME Terminal on GNOME and urxvt on i3.

Kritixi Lithos

Downloaded it from here. I think it used to be on older macs as default (it's called X11).

Riker

ah

DJMcMayhem

@betseg so then use $TERM == 'Linux'

betseg

oh it was simpler than i expected

Kritixi Lithos

18:15

It's used to be on mine, but it was not installed onto my computer. After downloading it, it replaces X11. If you ask me, XQuartz is worth it

DJMcMayhem

@Riker You're 14 right?

Riker

yes

and about a third of the way to 15

Kritixi Lithos

Sure it starts slower, but it has better color support

Riker

that reminds me: installing the gaot's gitgoat app now

Kritixi Lithos

@Riker 14 is the best year

Riker

18:17

I will be back after having been driven insane by goats

@KritixiLithos yah, you can eat as much as you want and stay identical (as long as you exercise a bit)

Kritixi Lithos

Where's the app?

Riker

xcode or gitgoat

DJMcMayhem

14 is a good year. That's when I started playing guitar/with bands

Kritixi Lithos

gitgoat

DJMcMayhem

16 is a better year though

Riker

18:18

@KritixiLithos github.com/vihanb/GitGoat private repo though

Mistah Figgins

@DJMcMayhem Hey, speak for yourself :P

Riker

ping the goat if you can't see it (aka he hasn't added ya)

@DJMcMayhem you can legally drive?

DJMcMayhem

Yup

Kritixi Lithos

I was foolish and stupid when I was 13, 14 changed all that

Riker

^

mainly because my parents decided I both get an allowance and lose that allowance when I do something stupid

DJMcMayhem

18:19

My sister just got her driver's license yesterday. Scary af

Riker

@DJMcMayhem :o congrats @DJMcMayhem's sister!

Kritixi Lithos

@Riker I leave out the exercising bit :P

Riker

lel

Sure, you could just ask, but this also takes care of the host gift thing.

sigh why do you have to have weird connectors @Apple

Kritixi Lithos

Android's amazing, same connector (more or less) for all android devices

Mistah Figgins

@KritixiLithos This change for me was mostly instigated by my amazing LA/History teacher

Riker

18:22

@KritixiLithos yeah, thus why I use an android phone

Erik the Outgolfer

@Riker So that iStuff is incompatible with non-Apple stuff => So that you have to purchase Apple stuff => So that Apple gets $$$ from the stuff you purchase => Apple Profit $$$.

Riker

@EriktheOutgolfer well yeah that was rhetorical question

quartata

@Riker Delete button is right next to the star button if I'm not mistaken

You will now live in terror of starring messages

So enjoy that

Erik the Outgolfer

Others can't see who starred a message.

DJMcMayhem

I don't think anyone can

Erik the Outgolfer

18:24

Yeah, not even mods can AFAIK.

Riker

@quartata lol

@quartata it's not though :P

@DJMcMayhem yes they can actually, doorknob accidentally did it once

i don't think it's been fixed

quartata

@Riker *flag-delete

@Riker It has

Riker

ah ok

DJMcMayhem

@Riker That's through the API, not the UI, so it's different

Mistah Figgins

@quartata Or you could click the dropdown button and press the sta - oh.

Riker

18:26

true

@quartata the icons on the right of a message are identical though, so I'm good :P

Erik the Outgolfer

That dropdown button is the key.

And no, it has more than the icons on the right.

Kritixi Lithos

@Riker could you see chat flags (before you became a diamond cat)?

Riker

@EriktheOutgolfer no it does not

@KritixiLithos yes I could, I have 10k network wide

DJMcMayhem

@Riker I'm curious, what buttons are available to you on mobile chat? Cause I can see "Reply, Permalink, star, flag, pin, and kick". Can you see all those? More?

Riker

12.6k now

Kritixi Lithos

18:27

Ah, I thought it was 10k in 1 site

Riker

@DJMcMayhem will check in a moment

I don't see 'kick' though, not even on desktop

nvm I see it

@DJMcMayhem I see all of those + edit, that's it

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, you have to click on the user, not the posts

Riker

on desktop yeah

DJMcMayhem

@Riker Ah, ok cool

Erik the Outgolfer

Edit the user???

Kritixi Lithos

18:29

@Riker can you edit this message?

Riker

@EriktheOutgolfer no silly favicon

but on mobile, tapping on users takes you to their profile page

everything is done by tapping on msgs

that's not special to mods, tah'ts everybody

Kritixi Lithos

mobile sucks a lot

DJMcMayhem

@Riker Do you mind if I try an experiment? (In the third stack)

Riker

"third stack"?

DJMcMayhem

Brain-flak room, we renamed it

Riker

18:30

found it

betseg

E116: Invalid arguments for function system("[[ ""$TERM"" == ""linux"" ]]")
E15: Invalid expression: system("[[ ""$TERM"" == ""linux"" ]]")

whats wrong

oh [[ is a shell builtin command

Riker

yes

Mistah Figgins

For those who know java Client-Server stuff, can I use the same remote port number on each client to connect to the same server?

betseg

wtf in [, == is for ints and = is for strings

Riker

yes

betseg

18:39

E116: Invalid arguments for function system("[ ""$TERM"" = ""linux"" ]")
E15: Invalid expression: system("[ ""$TERM"" = ""linux"" ]")

;_;

Riker

@Downgoat why does gitgoat give 6 warnings/errors -.-

Kritixi Lithos

Jan 31 at 20:54, by Riker

2545

Q: Proper use cases for Android UserManager.isUserAGoat()?

I was looking at the new APIs introduced in Android 4.2. While looking at the UserManager class I came across the following method: public boolean isUserAGoat() Used to determine whether the user making this call is subject to teleportations. Returns whether the user making this call...

Something like that for iOS perhaps

Mistah Figgins

I'm torn between svr or srv as shortenings for server... What do you all think?

I'm leaning towards svr

But I don't know

mınxomaτ

srv

LliwTelracs

I have just learned that Javascript is apparently turing incomplete as it doesn't have a halt state

mınxomaτ

18:54

If anything, svr would be short for sever (remove vowels). srv (serve) is often used for serve and short for server.

betseg

svr looks like svn

pressing return instead of backspace

Mistah Figgins

Ok, I will use srv

Helka Homba

19:19

@LliwTelracs Huh?

LliwTelracs

@HelkaHomba I learned about it when writing an interpreter for my second entry to the language of unknown Turing Completeness challenge

ais523

@LliwTelracs I think most computer scientists consider that all you need is a halt state equivalent, rather than a literal halt state; there's some debate about what counts as close enough to be an equivalent, though

I think most people agree that something that is obviously an infinite loop (while(1); or the like) is enough, though

Helka Homba

19:34

Why does on-hold music still sound crackly and intermittent these days?

fergusq

@ais523 Isn't it possible to define that while(1); is the same thing as halting as long as such definition doesn't cause contradiction.

ais523

@fergusq sure, and there are languages where a tight infinite loop halts the program; however, normally when you're talking about Turing-completeness in maths you're working with an existing definition that you can't easily change, and trying to see if it's TC or not

(not to mention that if something has syntax that's as expressive as while(1), it's probably sufficiently featureful to be TC anyway)

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Dot Matrix Messages with Github WIP Goal: This goal to take a string and output how many contributions should be made on which days in order to display this message. Font: 5x7 DOT Matrix Input: Take a String Output: List of (date, contribution) pairs in chronological order

Adnan

@mbomb007 nope it does not

Riker

@HelkaHomba because companies are cheap

fergusq

19:44

@ais523 This is actually a pretty interesting question. Lets assume that we have a machine that can interpret a TC language but can't halt ie. the programs start and stop, but the computer keeps running. Is this computer itself TC? It can simulate any Turing machine, so I would say that it is.

ais523

it's a very interesting question, and the centre of something of a row I was drawn into many years ago now

which is basically to do with TCness proofs that work via compiling from a TC language

the question is, what restrictions apply on the compiler, and what restrictions apply on the halt state definition?

clearly there must be some such restrictions; for example, if the compiler interprets the language itself and outputs the steps of the execution, then you can prove even obviously sub-TC languages to be TC

Helka Homba

@Riker I'm listening to crackly jazz and only getting more irate about thee issue I'm calling about U:<

Riker

lol

what's the issue?

but also :(

Helka Homba

hospital bill thingy

LliwTelracs

The issue is that on-hold music is crackly and intermittent

ais523

19:47

"the compiler runs in finite time and deterministically produces an output of finite size" is known to be sufficient, but isn't possible in all cases (e.g. languages where the program is inherently infinitely long)

note that this is rarely an issue at PPCG, infinitely long programs score terribly at code-golf

Riker

@HelkaHomba ah

LliwTelracs

@ais523 A notable exception

Kritixi Lithos

Now that you say it, I've been thinking an anti-golf tag where the objective is to golf your code, but the longest answer wins.

ais523

we have code-bowling, but that's not quite the same

LliwTelracs

longest golfed code wins would mean you need to let other people golf your code

ais523

19:51

yes

but you could just submit a program in rule 110 or sequential tag or something like that (where all programs are infinitely long due to the nature of the language)

fergusq

@ais523 Can't we represent all programs in a finite form? Is it valid for a program to be infinitely long? For example if the program is an infinite sequence of number and we have a finite function that calculates those numbers, we can call that function the program. A program that can't be represented in a finite form can't be represented at all, I think, so would it make sense to ban those programs?

Kritixi Lithos

Java can finally have a winning chance

DJMcMayhem

@KritixiLithos 1) submit a brain-flak answer 2) no one can golf it 3) profit

ais523

@fergusq oh, you deifnitely can represent the program in finite form; the problem is how complex the representation is

say we represent the program as a Python program that produces the (infinitely long) output

DJMcMayhem

Although I guess lenguage is significantly more verbose

ais523

19:53

now the language is almost certainly Turing-complete and I haven't said anything about how it works yet

because you can just do all the computation in the input Python code

fergusq

I see

ais523

so the problem is basically about what rules for the finite form are allowed

Kritixi Lithos

@DJMcMayhem oh yeah, there's going to be a problem with languages like lenguage and unary. Well, there could be an upper limit of program size equal to the max number of characters allowed in an SE post

LliwTelracs

An interesting thing to see for that would be to have your code interpret another language which interprets another language in a chain to run the code

Kritixi Lithos

Lang A interprets Lang B that interprets Lang C which then interprets Lang A

LliwTelracs

19:57

Writing interpreters for other languages to run the code

fergusq

Compiling languages in a cycle could be fun. Compiling A to B and B to A with a non-optimizing compiler would probably have the programs grow in size. How complex could the program become?

mbomb007

@Adnan How about a way to slice a list?

like Python's L[start:end:step]

@DJMcMayhem Oh yeah, I saw that a bit ago and meant to post it in chat yesterday. I guess I forgot.

The original post is here:

180

Q: HTTPS: It's time

This is a heads up, and a request for help. HTTPS for our entire network is long overdue, but we've been working hard on it behind the scenes. Expect a pretty big blog post when we turn it on everywhere that details the journey. There are a few lingering questions on HTTPS we're not confident i...

discussion ssl announcement

Riker

yesterday, by Riker

83

Q: HTTPS: It's time

This is a heads up, and a request for help. HTTPS for our entire network is long overdue, but we've been working hard on it behind the scenes. Expect a pretty big blog post when we turn it on everywhere that details the journey. There are a few lingering questions on HTTPS we're not confident i...

discussion ssl announcement

:p

Helka Homba

Would be so much golfier if https://stuff.com could just be s:stuff.com. h could be http, f could be ftp. Are there more?

Riker

hs for https

Emigna

20:09

@mbomb007 A few different ways you can slice a list in 05AB1E.

Riker

instead of s

AdmBorkBork

@LliwTelracs Gotcha, that makes sense. Thanks.

@HelkaHomba Gopher, IRC, SSH, Telnet ...

mınxomaτ

git, ws, wss...

AdmBorkBork

@HelkaHomba Are you calling on a cell phone?

mbomb007

@Emigna Slicing, not chunking.

Helka Homba

20:14

@AdmBorkBork yes

Emigna

@mbomb007 Ah okay, the first example can slice though (but only from the first index)

mbomb007

tio.run/nexus/…

AdmBorkBork

@HelkaHomba Then the crackly intermittent stuff is due to the vocal compression algorithms the cell phone uses. It prioritizes human speech frequencies and sacrifices things outside that range. Coincidentally, that makes on-hold music suck.

Helka Homba

@AdmBorkBork Then they should have spoken poetry instead of music

AdmBorkBork

True, but plenty of people still call from a landline (e.g., most any business office).

Helka Homba

20:17

Or like an audiobook of a short story that would be done by the time you are off hold :P

Emigna

@mbomb007 tio.run/nexus/05ab1e#@295eK6RSfChxYeW6HAB2S6HOw73g1mmhxaD6SCd//…

The first one should be 34.

I loved your almost crack btw! :)

mbomb007

The first method or the second?

Emigna

the First

mbomb007

With K?

Yeah

Emigna

I made it for range[1 .. 10] first and forgot to change it

mbomb007

20:23

I really can't figure out how to reverse every other without needing an additional } at the end.

My first attempt would've needed that too if it worked for all n.

Maybe if I could do two rows per iteration? idk

It's my first time using 05AB1E

Emigna

I didn't use the most obvious method as that would probably have been to easy. It gets harder to golf in 05AB1E with restrictions on non-ascii :)

AdmBorkBork

@ConorO'Brien That's a hilarious way to save a single byte on that BATCH answer. Well done.

Emigna

Especially if you're not familiar with the language already

I'm guessing there's probably 1 command you've overlooked that would make the crack complete

mbomb007

20:45

@Emigna Closer? tio.run/nexus/05ab1e#@x8a4Rbh4xehpe2XFBxkmB2fGaR5aPf//yYA

It's not the right format, though

Emigna

Remove the last char and the format is right

no wait

didn't see the double list

Doesn't really work for other inputs as 4 it seems either

You are on the right track though

Check Out Tomato

@Downgoat STOP renaming Tomato to Tomatogoat.

Riker

where is he doing that?

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Put some music in a box code-golf Your task is to take a sequence of letters (the music) as input (in a function or program), and print (or return) the music as it would look like in a music box. You will only receive the letters ABCDEFG as input. This is an empty music box, with length 3: .....

Check Out Tomato

@Riker Suggestions. I already declined it.

Riker

20:52

where?

what do you mean by "suggestions"?

issues on the repo?

Check Out Tomato

The username says "Vihan Bhargava" and his github username is vihanb

Riker

pull requests?

Check Out Tomato

@Riker No, on the Google Doc

Riker

ah

@CheckOutTomato yeah tha'ts him

Check Out Tomato

> that's

Riker

20:53

yeah

it's a habit of mine, hitting the single quote 1 letter too early on many contractions

<shrug> and I'm too lazy to edit

DJMcMayhem

> i'ts a habit of mine...

@Riker FTFY

Riker

lel

DJMcMayhem

Do you also type 'Im accidentally?

Riker

?

betseg

1 letter too soon "I'm" is "'Im"

CMC: 1 letter too soon single quotes

DJMcMayhem

20:58

@betseg Like Given a string, move all single quotes back a character?

betseg

Yes

Riley

@mbomb007 I think I figured it out, but only because I've seen your code so I don't want to post a crack.

DJMcMayhem

I can do it in 5 bytes of V off the top of my head without testing

@betseg òt'xp

Sandbox

Transcript for