The Nineteenth Byte

LegionMammal978

00:20

Any good YouTube series I can sink a few hours into?

Riker

try this channel

Downgoat

00:40

@quartata only 14?? O_o

quartata

@Downgoat 14 versions of Babel isn't a ton?!!

That's more than the number of JVMs and Python versions I have combined

Downgoat

well usually you have around 200 babel-related modules

quartata

And this sounded like a good idea to everyone?

Downgoat

I'm not sure how to say yes without making node.js community look crazy :/

Pavel

; <-- Greek question mark, replace semicolons with this in other people's code if you want to be particularly evil.

Downgoat

00:44

@Pavel This is Rightgoat-level evilness

quartata

@Downgoat It's OK.

You have the right to remain silent

TuxCopter

@Pavel But why would someone do this;

Destructible Watermelon

@pavel hi can help me now?

also who should I ping to get room unfrozen?

Pavel

@Downgoat Don't worry, we already think the node.js community is crazy.

@DestructibleWatermelon Dennis

TuxCopter

Or any other mod

Downgoat

00:47

@Pavel ._.

Destructible Watermelon

@Dennis can this room be unfrozen please chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/48054/maze-battle-koth

Pavel

Is there a way to make Vim autoindent properly, and if not how do people stand using it?

wat

@Pavel put this in your .vimrc:

set autoindent

set smartindent

Pavel

Ty'

wat

Actually, can I just zip my .vim folder and .vimrc?

Pavel

00:57

Nah, no need.

wat

Actually already did it

u.dk0.us/vim-files.zip

@Pavel unzip that into your ~

Downgoat

@Pavel what plugin manager are you using?

wat

@Downgoat he does not have one I think

I use pathogen

Downgoat

#VundleMasterrace

wat

...

@Downgoat I wrote my own package manager for pathogen

It's still unfinished though

Pavel

01:01

Eh, I might look at both. On another note, my Vim is haunted:

I just sudo kill -9'd it.

quartata

@Downgoat I've recently converted to Vundle and I have to agree.

wat

@Pavel Seriously, unzip the package I gave you into your ~.

It has all sorts of plugins

Pavel

Sure thing

Downgoat

@Pavel how are you living without :set mouse=a

LegionMammal978

@Downgoat What's that do?

Pavel

01:04

It's called switching to linux less than a month ago

@LegionMammal978 Enables mouse in Vim

wat

@LegionMammal978 lets you use the mouse in vim in terminal

LegionMammal978

idk vim, I just use insert mode for everything

wat

I think it also works with gpm on virtual console

Doorknob

@Downgoat How are you living without :set mouse=? ;)

wat

@LegionMammal978 HERETIC! BURN HIM!

LegionMammal978

01:05

@wat lol, at least I don't use emacs

wat

@LegionMammal978 emacs is pretty cool though

Qwerp-Derp

I have a Window class that listens for buttons in one class but I don't know how to link it to inputboxes :(

quartata

@Doorknob Yeah I never use :set mouse

Qwerp-Derp

I think I should upload a Gist

quartata

Kind of defeats the point of vim

wat

01:05

@LegionMammal978 It's a nice Lisp dev environment. Shame it has a crappy editor though.

Downgoat

I don't think i got joke

quartata

@Downgoat The question mark is not part of it.

i.e it's unset

ceilingcat

using a mouse in vi is like adding training wheels to your ducati

Downgoat

Oh, in that case, the same way I use arrow keys instead of hjkl :P

ceilingcat

sure it probably helps you not fall over

Pavel

01:07

@wat is my vim actually haunted or is it supposed desplay all this crazy shit when I start it?

Downgoat

I mean I don't use it too much but it is helpful sometime when on some slow remote server and doing w over and over again is slow

quartata

Just use count<direction>

wat

@Pavel what crazy shit

quartata

Or /

Or j

Or any of these other great movement keys that vim gives you

Pavel

wat

01:07

@Pavel ...

quartata

You tried to edit a directory.

Downgoat

that theme is...

wat

I see the problem

quartata

I think?

Wait, is that vim?

wat

Currently it is using solarized colorscheme

Pavel

01:08

Yes

Downgoat

yeah, left is NERDTree

quartata

Oh yeah it is

Yeah you edited a directory. That auto pops up nerdtree

Downgoat

@wat terminal seems to be fighting it in that case :P

wat

Try switching your terminal to be solarized, or turning off solarized in your .vimrc

Pavel

My terminal is solarized.

quartata

01:08

Why bother with a colorscheme anyways I don't get it

wat

That's what it looks like when default colorscheme is used in terminal with solarized colorscheme on vim

@quartata Makes syntax highlightimg look better mostly

Downgoat

also, try solarizing your home, that way you'll be using reusable energy :P

Qwerp-Derp

@wat What about spacemacs

wat

@Pavel Can you please show your terminal profile preferences, colors tab

Pavel

NVM I had it for 'Text and background colors'

But not 'Pallete'

And it works now

wat

01:10

yeah that should help

@Pavel "Palette"

Pavel

Eh

I suddenly have a massive headache

fak

wat

@Pavel :(

Downgoat

@Pavel stress? I have goat pictures to fix that

Qwerp-Derp

electron = awesome :)

ETHproductions

Any editor featuring goat pictures = awesome

wat

01:13

@Qwerp-Derp NO

Qwerp-Derp

@wat What's wrong with it

Downgoat

I thought you made app in electron...

wat

yeah and it did not load properly

Downgoat

@Qwerp-Derp It's a little slow

Qwerp-Derp

@Downgoat How little

Downgoat

01:15

It has chromium embedded so as fast as a webpage renders

So if you do things correctly it'll be fine

However it's faster than 98% current cross-platform solutions

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp Is that a text editor?

wat

@Pavel Application development framework

@Downgoat GTK?

Qwerp-Derp

@Pavel Electron is a library that allows you to build apps with HTML, CSS & JS

wat

@Qwerp-Derp ninja'd?

Qwerp-Derp

@wat I "elaborated", so technically not ninja'd :P

wat

01:17

I see

Downgoat

@wat GTK is great in theory

wat

@Downgoat and in practice?

Downgoat

@wat 1) good luck building it 2) also has bad support for native mac API stuffs

Idk about windows

Qwerp-Derp

is javafx crossplatform?

wat

@Downgoat I just started using a mac. GIMP (originator of GTK) works very badly, so I don't think that GTK apps will work any better there

Qwerp-Derp

01:20

The only good python gui library is probably pygame :P

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp Mostly, yeah.

Don't do anything rocket-scinecy with it, should be fine.

Downgoat

Calling Java cross platform is like calling a website cross-platform

Pavel

@Downgoat How can you make that criticism about Java when you use Node.js?

TuxCopter

^

Downgoat

@Pavel because node.js doesn't use a giant VM? It doesn't sandbox itself and isolate itself from all native API? It supports display resolutions higher than 640x480?

Java =/= JavaScript pls

TuxCopter

01:24

Go and try say Node.js is better than Java

quartata

??????????

Pavel

JavaScript is websites.

TuxCopter

Node.js = Olympic-level library mess, which is not any better than the JVM

quartata

You understand that abstracting from native APIs is how something is made cross platform right

That's the freaking definition.

Downgoat

@quartata abstracting =/= creating your own versions of them

quartata

01:25

@wat Yeah, GTK is shit on Mac.

Don't bother.

@Downgoat Um, yes. Yes it is.

Qwerp-Derp

Pygame is pretty trash, I like Python but I can't really do anything outside of console stuff because GUI support is pretty shit

Downgoat

@quartata abstracting is putting layer between two things

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp Python Card

quartata

Yes.

Downgoat

Java -> JVM -> Native API = Abstraction

Pavel

01:25

It's pretty good

Downgoat

Java -> JVM -> Own API and UI items =/= abstractions

Qwerp-Derp

@Pavel > Last updated 2006

quartata

Own API -> Native API

TuxCopter

Java -> JVM -> Own API and UI items -> Native API -> OS = Abstraction

Pavel

It has to call the Native API at some point, right?

quartata

01:26

It's not like it's all that different anyways.

And UI is totally different.

TuxCopter

ninja'd

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp Works for Python 2 well enough.

Downgoat

Java doesn't interact with Coca

It also hates my HiDPI display

quartata

In the case of UI heavyweight components (which is using the Native API) is a terrible terrible thing.

Downgoat

@TuxCopter We're referring to different things when we say Native API

quartata

01:27

That's what AWT does, there's a reason no one uses that.

Almost all modern UI toolkits are lightweight, not heavyweight.

Including Electron, for what it's worth.

@Downgoat It still looks like Cocoa which is all that matters. And it uses Quartz to draw it unlike GTK.

Downgoat

In context of Apple, API = Cocoa

@quartata GTK uses Quartz on mac

quartata

@Downgoat Yeah, no. Cocoa is just a higher level API over Quartz ultimately

@Downgoat Really?

Downgoat

er, it says on website

quartata

Oh, that's new. It used to need X11.

Downgoat

@quartata apple says it themselves but OK

quartata

01:29

@Downgoat Cocoa is just GUI. So.

Downgoat

apple calls Cocoa "The API"

quartata

I wouldn't listen to them that much...

Downgoat

It's a API but point stands

quartata

They would love you to become reliant on Objective-C and Swift

Downgoat

@quartata oops

quartata

01:30

Yeah, that's the real reason we see all these Mac-only apps.

Downgoat

Java is cross-platform but what I'm saying is I think it does bad job at it

quartata

Anything in particular?

A lot of things it does "wrong" it can't really change. Some of File's more esoteric bits are because of Windows for instance.

Pavel

And what do you suggest we use as a cross-platform, relatively low-level language?

Downgoat

1) It uses giant VM which feel clunky (OK, this is personal reason) 2) it does not support HiDPI display, so everything looks absolutely horrible (or at least AWT or Javax or whatever) 3) it does not talk to Cocoa so apps viewed on Macs don't fit in

I don't use windows so can't say anything there

Pavel

Works fine on Windows, I've got no issues there.

Well, some issues.

But minor ones

quartata

01:34

1) JVM is heavy in terms of size but it's pretty damn good at its job. It was almost always the cutting edge of JIT (until V8, which is designed to do very different things anyways)

TuxCopter

@Pavel C. If you don't rely too much on OS-specific APIs it's cross platform.

quartata

2) I really don't get HiDPI so I probably can't comment on that one. But you shouldn't be using Swing for games so I can't see why any form of resolution matters

Downgoat

yeah, it is fast but start up time isn't great

Pavel

@TuxCopter C is the least portable language after Assembly.

Downgoat

@quartata I am on Mac so I don't know what game is

quartata

01:35

3) Last I checked the OS X look and feel is indistinguishable. That was in Snow Leopard mind you

DJMcMayhem

@Qwerp-Derp Oh man, I love pygame

TuxCopter

@Pavel Nah, there are things much worse than C in terms of cross-platform (but still wayyyy more than assembly)

DJMcMayhem

The existence of pygame is one of the main reasons I am a programmer today

Pavel

@TuxCopter Uh, like what? (Not counting ancient languages no one uses)

quartata

$ time java Empty

real	0m0.045s
user	0m0.038s
sys	0m0.011s
$

$ time node <<< ""

real	0m0.085s
user	0m0.085s
sys	0m0.000s
$

Qwerp-Derp

01:36

@DJMcMayhem It's still going strong, but it looks kinda outdated TBH

quartata

@Downgoat This speaks for itself pretty much.

@Pavel Modern C++ is very very easy to port across platforms.

Destructible Watermelon

halp how do I prevent bots from using a class variable?

quartata

Since the standards have incorporated much of the icky native APIs

TuxCopter

And C too

Pavel

TuxCopter said C

Qwerp-Derp

01:37

I love Python because it's so simple to make code and start something, but I hate it because it can't really do much outside of small, simple projects

quartata

C less so.

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp It's basically Perl++ in that regard.

Downgoat

@quartata In my defense they are two very different languages, so this is understandable

@Qwerp-Derp Thank you for not writing OS in Python

Qwerp-Derp

Can I make a joke at Perl's expense?

TuxCopter

@quartata Goodly written C code is as cross-platform as the equivalent C++ code

Qwerp-Derp

01:39

@Downgoat What if an OS was written in Python

TuxCopter

@Qwerp-Derp It's impossible

Qwerp-Derp

@TuxCopter Goodly

quartata

@Downgoat Sure. But in terms of not actually doing anything V8 should be faster.

TuxCopter

Except if the bootloader is a python interpreter

quartata

Java uses green threads for one. It has to set up a bunch of junk.

Christopher Peart

01:40

codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/111242/63187 Did I do it right?

Downgoat

@quartata It's not impossible Java doesn't have an if input == nil { exit(0) }

quartata

@Downgoat It doesn't.

Pavel

@Qwerp-Derp Sure

DJMcMayhem

@ChristopherPeart Looks correct to me I guess. Maybe try adding a hexdump of the output?

quartata

That certainly wouldn't take 45 milliseconds for a start....

Nathan Merrill

01:40

@Dennis out of curiosity: how do you pass the source code to most of the interpreters? Do you write it to a file, and pass the filepath, or do you pipe it in?

quartata

But the class is valid bytecode. So it is doing stuff.

"empty" was misleading I suppose

Pavel

@ChristopherPeart You should provide an xxd dump.

Downgoat

oh

Christopher Peart

@DJMcMayhem hexdump?

quartata

Hmm let me disassemble

Qwerp-Derp

01:41

So you know the joke about how Chinese people name their babies by throwing a bunch of woks down a set of stairs? Perl programmers throw a keyboard down their stairs to generate their code.

Christopher Peart

I have no idea what you are talking about/how to do it

Pavel

@ChristopherPeart If you're on Linux, run it through xxd

Christopher Peart

Windows

psa: msn.com/en-us/news/technology/…

quartata

$ javap -c Empty
Compiled from "empty.java"
class Empty {
  Empty();
    Code:
       0: aload_0
       1: invokespecial #1                  // Method java/lang/Object."<init>":()V
       4: return

  public static void main(java.lang.String[]);
    Code:
       0: return
}
$

@Downgoat Obviously very little code. But it's doing some stuff.

It's setting up the VM at minimum.

Pavel

bit.ly/2lF4LQ2 @ChristopherPeart

ETHproductions

01:43

@ChristopherPeart Too bad, I'm not traveling to the southern hemisphere this Sunday

wat

@quartata What is javap?

Downgoat

@quartata Java also gets opportunity to compile

quartata

@wat Disassembles

wat

I see

quartata

@Downgoat There's nothing to compile.

In either case.

Downgoat

01:43

Well there is parsing

Pavel

@Downgoat I don't know what JIT is, but apparantly Java uses.

quartata

Parsing the empty string sure is intensive.

Downgoat

nevermind that is invalid

I mean, yeah Java is faster, that doesn't stop it from being clunky :P

quartata

That's like 100 nanoseconds, tops.

wat

@Pavel Just in time compilation

quartata

01:44

We're talking C speed here remember.

Downgoat

Also I did note that as being personal opinion

so why don't we focus on other thing

Christopher Peart

@Pavel Do I put a hexdump of output right?

Pavel

@wat I know what it is, not how it works.

quartata

The two I already answered?

Pavel

@ChristopherPeart Yes

wat

01:45

> I don't know what JIT is

quartata

Oh, correction. JVM 1.2+ doesn't use green threads

Pavel

@wat Sorry

wat

It's fine

quartata

JVM still has extra machinery for monitors though. So there's additional setup

Christopher Peart

@Pavel thanks done

Dennis

01:46

@NathanMerrill I use files.

Downgoat

also clunkyness isn't just speed

quartata

Performance is all that matters on the VM level. It's not like we're compiling to it.

Downgoat

More on topic: Am I allowed to ask "is X good programming thing in language Y" question on SO

Christopher Peart

@Dennis what was that whole thing about your crack?

wat

@ChristopherPeart CnR probably

Pavel

01:49

@Downgoat Maybe on CR, they care more about wether you should do something rather than if you can do something.

@ChristopherPeart Dennis cracked a submission to a CnR challenge, the person who put up the original submission wanted to take it down.

@ChristopherPeart google translate detected that your submission is mostly vietnamese.

Christopher Peart

02:10

@Pavel My plan was exposed!

Pavel

> Tries to install .NET under wine
> WTF is wrong with me

wat

crap wrong room

DJMcMayhem

I coulda moved it for you

Destructible Watermelon

@Pavel I haven't implemented respawning yet. Should I?

Pavel

Yes

Christopher Peart

02:20

@Pavel Would have stared but circle was not hand drawn

3

@DestructibleWatermelon Respawning in what?

Destructible Watermelon

@ChristopherPeart my maze koth

Downgoat

Because the brk instruction always shows up when iOS app crashes, for some reason I always read as "bork"

Pavel

I wonder what the origin of 'Bork' is.

quartata

Are you asking seriously or in jest?

DJMcMayhem

Broke --> bork

quartata

02:24

Actually, apparently it comes from this guy. So I learned something new:

Robert Bork

Robert Heron Bork (March 1, 1927 – December 19, 2012) was an American judge and legal scholar who advocated the judicial philosophy of originalism. Bork served as a Yale Law School professor, Solicitor General, Acting Attorney General, and a judge of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit. In 1987, President Ronald Reagan nominated him to the Supreme Court, but the U.S. Senate rejected his nomination. Bork is acclaimed also as an antitrust scholar, where his once-idiosyncratic view that antitrust law should focus on maximizing consumer welfare has come to dominate...

I always assumed it was the Swedish Chef.

Pavel

My ps -a is broken

It only shows ps and zsh

Downgoat

02:39

Has SE released any statement about the potential leak of user passwords on SO?

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

02:57

@Downgoat were you serious when you pinged me recently?

Downgoat

Partially, I was asking if it's possible

but if it is, a compiler is always possible

Rohan Jhunjhunwala

@Downgoat I'm sure its possible, I'll release it if I get it to work, it will require some unique modifications, but I might make them.

I'll pink you if I ever get it to work

quartata

@Qwerp-Derp That's where Python's OO comes in

Pavel

03:24

> Fox New's fake expert on violent immigrants in Sweden turns out to be a violent Swedish immigrant in the US, Swedish media reports.

Anonymous

@Riker No, stars are used to say "this is interesting/significant". That was neither.

wat

@Pavel ps aux

Downgoat

@Mego Imo, unless something is truly inappropriate to appear on starboard (i.e. from star spam) star clearing should not be used

I don't know context though

Pavel

I don't need every proccess, just the open windows. On the other hand, pgrep finally works now, so I've got that going for me, which is nice.

Downgoat

Random Question: Do you think </> is a good "code" icon, as it has grown to be?

wat

03:32

@Downgoat kinda

{} is less distinctive

I always read it as "use html markup" though

Downgoat

I think not, because </> implies SGML, which is not programming

@wat yeah, this is true

wat

or xml maybe?

Pavel

It's maybe not the best, but it's certaintly distinctive. Nothing else is really quite as iconic.

Downgoat

@wat SGML is kinda like the original angle-bracket ML, that XML & HTML were derived off of

Nick Clifford

Okay so I'm in the process of making github.com/MiningPotatoes/Ohm, and I'm trying to figure out a good dictionary-compressed string system

I'm not sure how to do it in a way that isn't a direct copy of 05AB1E or Jelly

Pavel

03:39

Execute it as a bubblegum program?

Nick Clifford

@Pavel Can't tell if /s

Pavel

Not /s. Bubblegum is good compression.

Nick Clifford

Really? How do you think it'd work with a dictionary?

Pavel

I uhh... missed the dictionary bit.

Nick Clifford

:P

wat

03:45

shoco?

Nick Clifford

@wat I'd prefer something I can implement in pure Ruby

wat

b64 zlib

Anonymous

@Downgoat That's not the guidance I was given from the other mods/ROs

Wheat Wizard

4

No chrome, thats javaScript

Nick Clifford

@wat Again, dictionary?

wat

03:49

no idea

Define dictionary compression

Nick Clifford

Taking a string of characters and somehow mapping it to a dictionary of English words

wat

Oh, that?

You would decompress the string, then map it to a dictionary.

Nick Clifford

def sss(compressed):
	decompressed = ''
	integer = from_base([code_page.find(char) + 1 for char in compressed], 250)
	while integer:
		integer, mode = divmod(integer, 3)
		if mode == 0:
			integer, code = divmod(integer, 96)
			decompressed += code_page[code + 32]
		else:
			flag_swap = False
			flag_space = decompressed != ''
			if mode == 2:
				integer, flag = divmod(integer, 3)
				flag_swap = flag != 1
				flag_space ^= flag != 0
			integer, short = divmod(integer, 2)
			the_dictionary = (dictionary.long, dictionary.short)[short]

I'm thinking something to do with the characters in my code page though

^ That's how Jelly does it

Pavel

I don't think Dennis will mind if you do it like Jelly.

Nick Clifford

¯_(ツ)_/¯ I mean, might as well

Downgoat

04:18

@Mego from TNB mods?

I have nothing wrong with their advice

just that previously star clearing has been used pretty conservatively, so change is new

Conor O'Brien

@Mego >_> how much of the starboard is interesting/significant really tho. shall we cleanse all the stars on the board?

Downgoat

Any ideas on how to improve this UI? The lots of empty space between the header and the buttons don't feel right

Conor O'Brien

yea

wat

04:37

@Downgoat I feel like it's perfect

Pavel

@Downgoat If you move those buttons up to reduce the empty space, you might be able to put the README in the space left.

Helka Homba

Would basic exponents like 5^x count as arithmetic?

Downgoat

@HelkaHomba :O so you are making the sequence into challenge!

I'd say yes

Helka Homba

04:56

@Downgoat yep

New Main Posts

05:10

4

Q: 5, 2, 16, 3580, What comes next?

Consider the positive integer powers of five in decimal. Here are the first 25, right aligned: X 5^X 1 5 2 25 3 125 4 625 5 3125 6 15625 7 78125 8 390625 9 ...

Helka Homba

05:44

@Dennis You mean how it needs to start at the top?

(re codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/111247/…)

Dennis

Yes. All my approaches so far treat "missing" digits as zeroes...

Conor O'Brien

CMC: given an array of integers K and an integer N, generate an N-length array with truthy values at each index k in K. E.g., N = 4 and K = (0 1 3), this would give 1 1 0 1. You may assume that K is sorted and has no integer greater than N. Lists may be one-indexed.

Helka Homba

@Dennis Oh, you'll sandwich it into 10 bites eventually I'm sure

Conor O'Brien

@WheatWizard Is submitting a specification for a language sufficient for your challenge?

Qwerp-Derp

I made a new sequence I think

Wheat Wizard

05:54

@ConorO'Brien I would really prefer if you wrote an interpreter but since other people have submitted actually invalid answers, I wont do anything. There are already at least one answer there without an interepreter

Conor O'Brien

@WheatWizard aight. I wasn't going to answer w/out an interpreter, but I was wondering about the current answers

which both seem to lack interpreters

Wheat Wizard

Yeah I am not terribly happy about that but the more pressing concern is that one of them lacks a proof and one of them is certainly invalid.

Conor O'Brien

I hope mine might be a pleasant surprise, then :)

Wheat Wizard

Not to say that I don't like the answers already, Legandre's is quite nice and Swallow w/ Coconut is interesting if incomplete.

I look forward to your submission

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