The Nineteenth Byte

Qwerp-Derp

11:02

Is anyone on?

mınxomaτ

Can we please close this question: codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/100538/…

Erik the Golfer

11:25

I did the final close vote.

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

Times (and docs) have changed:

ais523

11:38

oh well, I just gave a question eight answers before anyone else had given any

Flp.Tkc

I'm in the process of moving over to a new laptop, and while I want to continue with C++, I don't like using visual studio, it just feels clumsy and slow. Anyone know any lightweight IDEs for C++?

ais523

C++ IDEs tend not to be that lightweight, it takes a lot of effort to integrate the IDE

Kritixi Lithos

vim

TuxCopter

@Flp.Tkc vim + gcc + gdb

ais523

if you merely want to develop C++, you could use a programming editor of your choice + a command-line compiler of your choice; that's not the same thing as an IDE

but it's sufficient to write programs

TuxCopter

11:39

7 hours ago, by Doorknob

@ais523 Unrelated, but do you happen to be the ais523 who is now on the NetHack devteam?

:O

you work on NH

ais523

my favoured choice is mingw (installed via Strawberry Perl) plus Emacs, but that has a pretty steep learning curve; there are plenty of choices which work almost as well and are easier to learn

Flp.Tkc

I'd prefer an IDE over command line tbh

TuxCopter

@ais523 You typoed vim

Flp.Tkc

thanks for the suggestions everyone! I'll take a look

ais523

@TuxCopter: I use a wide range of editors (I have three open right now), Emacs and vim are suited for different tasks though

TuxCopter

11:41

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ vim is pretty versatile

It's even used in this site

ais523

vim is a better at editing text once you're fully used to it; Emacs is better at everything you do in an editor which isn't editing text

TuxCopter

What do you do in an editor that is not editing... ?

ais523

@TuxCopter: compiling programs and jumping to the errors; integrating with external syntax-checkers to get informed of syntax errors as soon as you type them; quickly jumping around between multiple files to follow the control flow (this is particularly useful with NetHack)

the basic difference between Emacs and vim is that Emacs has a much better understanding of what it is that you're editing, whereas vim just sees the bytes

btw, I'm not crazy enough to learn both to a high enough level to make this useful, but it seems widely accepted at this point that the "perfect editor" is to run a vim implementation inside Emacs, so you get vim behaviour for the editing and Emacs behaviour for everything else

TuxCopter

evil-mode in emacs AFAIK

ais523

yes, that's the recommended method nowadays IIRC

Flp.Tkc

11:46

atom doesn't look too bad

TuxCopter

I tried it. 7 seconds startup time, too slow for a text editor.

Flp.Tkc

gcc looks better though

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

My new hobby: Finding Mathematica solutions written by newer golfers and then writing a ~40% shorter solution

mınxomaτ

@Flp.Tkc Yeah if you have a 12-core CPU and 3 TB of RAM, Atom is fine.

Flp.Tkc

:)

TuxCopter

11:47

^^ Exactly

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

@mınxomaτ lol, if only my home PC had that much powah

ais523

Emacs gets round this problem by recommending you never close it ;-)

GNU Emacs it was actually originally intended as a desktop environment, sort-of like Gnome or KDE, but became best known for its editing facilities

TuxCopter

When I code I have my text editor on the left and a term on the right, so I pratically never close my editor

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

When I code, it's a compiled language, so it makes no sense to have a term

TuxCopter

wat

mınxomaτ

11:49

That statement doesn't really make any sense

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

IDK, just use MonoDevelop for C#

ais523

same except my screen is smaller, so I either have the terminal behind Emacs while editing (my usual setup on Linux), or I have the shell as a buffer inside Emacs itself (my usual setup in Windows, whose default terminal sucks)

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

(of course, it opens a term for I/O while it's running)

mınxomaτ

I use SciTe everywhere, which automatically opens one term instance as a buffer.

Kritixi Lithos

I use IntelliJ for Java

TuxCopter

11:51

ConEmu + git bash = Linux console in Windows

mınxomaτ

Flp.Tkc

@KritixiLithos I'm basic. I use eclipse for java

mınxomaτ

Pretty much what I'm looking at all day (looks the same on linux).

ais523

one of the things I've looked into heavily is terminal implementations (this is important for a terminal-based game like NetHack)

what ConEmu is doing is completely unsupported by the Windows APIs

TuxCopter

hm?

Kritixi Lithos

11:53

@Flp.Tkc IntelliJ has better code auto-completion

ais523

I looked into how it works and then wished I hadn't

Kritixi Lithos

@mınxomaτ XCode is better than that

TuxCopter

@ais523 What does it do badly?

mınxomaτ

@KritixiLithos That's not comparable. First off, XCode is proprietary. Second SciTe is an editor, not an IDE

ais523

it's not so much to do with badly

Flp.Tkc

11:54

@KritixiLithos to be honest, auto-completion messes me up. I just never really got into using it. I'm sure if I wasn't so stubborn, I'd be coding much faster in IntelliJ

ais523

but that implementing a terminal isn't something Windows provides a sane way to do

so it has to do it an insane way instead

TuxCopter

The only problem I ever had with ConEmu is WSL's bash making weird things with the colors

mınxomaτ

ConEmu doesn't support non-legacy console hosts (like WSL). It uses bodged client-windows to make it look like it's handling the terminal, but it isn't.

Kritixi Lithos

@mınxomaτ Again, XCode is an IDE and not just an editor

mınxomaτ

I just said that.

I don't need an IDE.

Kritixi Lithos

11:57

That is why XCode is better

TuxCopter

wat?

Sometimes you only need an editor, not an entire IDE

Kritixi Lithos

But XCode takes up a LOT of space

@TuxCopter Why?

TuxCopter

Example: You need to modify a line in a file

You will not use VS for it

Kritixi Lithos

@Flp.Tkc Trust me, IntelliJ is worth it

mınxomaτ

Sure, an IDE that doesn't run on any other platform is clearly "better". Sorry, but I'd like to edit code in the same environment everywhere. Emacs, vim, SciTe can all run everywhere and only need a few MB of disk. XCode is way too bloated and unportable for any of my use cases.

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

11:59

Fun fact: When I use vim, I enter insert mode, write whatever changes I need to do, exit insert mode, write to file, and exit

Kritixi Lithos

I hate Xcode

TuxCopter

3 mins ago, by Kritixi Lithos

That is why XCode is better

WTF

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

^

Kritixi Lithos

I didn't say Xcode is the best

mınxomaτ

Kritixi = crazy confirmed. Case closed.

Kritixi Lithos

12:00

I just said that it is better

TuxCopter

gtg

ais523

I've used a lot of editors, some are really terrible

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

Such as...?

Kritixi Lithos

I tried deleting it, but I couldn't and I'm stuck with it. I just deleted Xcode

ais523

I was using sixth edition UNIX ed a few minutes ago, it's painful

ΛεγίωνΜάμμαλϠΟΗʹ

12:01

Ouch, just cringed reading that

ais523

then after I'd got used to not having a working backspace key

I came back onto PPCG chat and suddenly couldn't figure out how to fix my typos

New Main Posts

-1

Q: Where Stenganography is using in real life?

It's totally understandable that in world-war II Steganography was quit efficiently but the question is that in this era where we are using Steganography in our life? if anyone can explain that would be better.

steganography

ais523

huh, new post and it's already at -1? that was fast

Kritixi Lithos

That's nothing

ais523

do new posts normally get downvoted here?

Sp3000

12:04

It's what happens when NewMainPosts takes 15 minutes to post

ais523

(also, that question clearly should be voted-to-close rather than downvoted)

mınxomaτ

@ais523 The question does indeed not show any research effort, which is the usual reason for a downvote.

ais523

oh right, downvotes speed up deletes, and a delete is highly likely to be appropriate here

the main confusion I have is as to how the question ended up on this particular stackexchange site

given that it isn't even about programming

mınxomaτ

@ais523 More importantly, unclosed questions can benefit from downvotes, as anything below -8 will vanish from the frontpage.

ais523

I don't want to vote to migrate because I can't immediately think of somewhere which would be a better fit

and it may well be offtopic everywhere

Sp3000

12:12

Infosec's the most appropriate IMO, but I don't think they need a new question on it, so I've just left a comment

mınxomaτ

Nov 11 at 21:02, by mınxomaτ

There's a codegolf answer in the HN frontpage btw.

@Sp3000 Is there a crypto.SE?

Sp3000

Yes, apparently: link

mınxomaτ

> https://http//crypto.stackexchange.com/

Sp3000

(I always forget it exists)

(oops :P)

It's confusing when Chrome doesn't show the http:// extension

mınxomaτ

Then its should probably migrate there, it's fairly on topic. Probably a dupe there, though.

@Sp3000 Paste first, then look at it :P

ais523

12:19

steganography isn't really crypto though, especially not the sort used during the wars

mınxomaτ

@ais523 crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/steganography

Sp3000

Hmm to be honest I find the Crypto/Infosec pair slightly confusing since there's a lot of overlap, and they both have steg tags

And the cryptocurrency Stacks and I really do wonder what goes where sometimes :P

Dennis

In a nutshell, Crypto is more about theory, Infosec more about practice.

TuxCopter

back

mınxomaτ

Many questions on infosec that can't be answered with one sentence using hard facts are way too speculative for my taste. It's borderline world-building, but for attack vectors.

PhiNotPi

12:25

@Dennis wow, you actually followed through with the showcase thing.

TuxCopter

@NewMainPosts I have absolutely no idea how he could think a site called 'Programming Puzzle and Code Golf' is about steganography/encryption/whatever

trichoplax

@DLosc My main concern was the lack of a tie-break, which has been added now. There were a few other things that seemed contradictory but I wasn't sure if it was just me being tired, so I thought it safest to close vote to draw attention and let other people decide what to change. Looking today I can see I simply misunderstood some parts. Yes I agree the spec is excellent.

The main problem with X without Y is defining what it means in different languages, but in this case a lot of effort has gone into making this objective, so this seems like one of the "good X without Y" questions that the meta post mentions.

As for looking very difficult, there are so many challenges that are "obviously impossible" until the answers start coming in...

ais523

I think the trick is to store code for one language in a string literal in the others, and then do a calculation whose result depends on the content of the literal in question

that way it can contribute to the result whilst still being fairly easy to change

however, trying to write the start and end of the code under those conditions is fairly difficult, I'm stuck at five languages as a result

/me reads the list

TuxCopter

Wait, GNU C has a builtin to SIGILL?

trichoplax

Stuck at 5?? That would be the winner so far - you can just go ahead and post... :)

mınxomaτ

12:34

@TuxCopter has

Please.

ais523

the programs aren't fully written yet, I've just reached the bit where it'd be easy

TuxCopter

Sorry

ais523

I want to get the framework in place before working on the details

as that's the hard part

trichoplax

You don't see GNU C as plural?

TuxCopter

I don't know when to use 'have' and when to use 'has' :/

mınxomaτ

12:36

@TuxCopter he/she/it -> s

TuxCopter

kthx

gtg

ais523

I see GNU C as singular, language names normally are

but it has a builtin to crash the program

it's not necessarily implemented in terms of an illegal instruction but that's the usual implementation, because it's small, fast, and does the job

and saving executable size is often important

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Procedurally Generate a Dungeon popularity-contestgridgamegenerationmaze It's time to make the new Rogue! Given no input, output a (randomly) procedurally generated dungeon with a start and an end. It must be possible to get from the start of the dungeon to the end. Elements may include: (but...

Dennis

12:50

@ais523 main[]="/"; just errors for me (wide character array initialized from non-wide string), but {6} should work.

ais523

@Dennis: on a modern C compiler it does, but that answer is targeted against older OSes

main[]={6} segfaults on a remotely modern OS

so you need to compile for pre-C94, which would mean no L

I should probably clarify that

was thinking about too many things at once

Dennis

@ais523 Not with the switches you provided.

ais523

like, the assumption is that you'd need to find the perfect OS to make it work, so it might well have the perfect C compiler too

{6} is the same length though

may I mention that in the answer? (alternatively, you could mention it in a comment)

Dennis

Answer would be better imho.

main=6; seems to work as well.

ais523

now you're completely outgolfing me :-)

have you found an OS where it works, or is it just a guess?

TuxCopter

12:58

back

ais523

I edited the post, anyway

Dennis

@ais523 With -Wl,-z,execstack, it works on my machine.

ais523

what, main=6?

or the final program?

Dennis

main=6.

ais523

I think you get to claim a score of 6+15 there if you want it

because a) I didn't think of that, b) even if I did I wouldn't have expected it to work

that said, my 1 byte solution is going to be hard to beat

btw, is there a way to see what happened to recently expired bounties?

I'm often interested in which answer ended up getting the bounty

trichoplax

13:06

If you have a particular challenge in mind, the bounty amount will be displayed next to the answer that received it. I'm not sure if there's a way to search for recently awarded bounties across all challenges.

ais523

right, I was hoping there would be

TuxCopter

-.-

ais523

incidentally, it's really liberating to be able to do perl -p and the like at only a 1 byte penalty

on anagolf that was a 9 byte penalty, and even then it was still sometimes cheaper to take the penalty than work around the lack of the flag

so that's one thing I'm already enjoying about the site

TuxCopter

What does the p flag do?

ais523

it puts the program in a loop that reads input a line at a time, and automatically prints output at the end of the loop

and the input goes into $_, a variable which is used by most commands implicitly

TuxCopter

13:09

Ok

ais523

so it lets you avoid worrying about (or more importantly, spending bytes on) writing I/O code

mınxomaτ

@ais523 BTW, the UD2 solution should also work for ICC for Windows.

trichoplax

You might be able to find/write a query on SEDE for bounties.

ais523

if your program has to take input, it's nearly always cheaper (which is why most Perl submissions here tend to eat at least a 1 byte penalty for -p or -n, which is an input-only version of -p)

I've never found a question for which -n is shorter than -p the way I write programs, but some other Perl golfers seem to like it

Dennis

@ais523 Feel free to use that yourself. I just did what your answer told me. :P

@ais523 If you see a bountied question, you could favorite it to visit it later.

ais523

13:20

I mentioned it in my answer but didn't claim it in the title, it seems like the best option (especially as none of the answers can win unless the PDP-11 answer is ruled invalid for some reason)

flawr

13:46

@mınxomaτ Again thank you, just used it the first time today for something other than playing around=)

mınxomaτ

@flawr Multi-editing or SciTE?

flawr

14:01

Multi-cursor editing=)

I'm not very used to SciTE yet, so when I want to quickly get something done I still use Npp which is what I am used ot

El'endia Starman

Oooh, multi-editing seems like it could be very useful in some situations.

mınxomaτ

Especially vertical multi-editing

flawr

This and knowing some regex can save you heaps of time:)

(And touch typing. I'm still amazed by the number of people working in buissnesses earning a good amount of money who don't know either.)

mınxomaτ

I wrote a LUA extension for SciTE to use full PCRE in the F&R dialog but lost the code :(

flawr

(Who have jobs that could be automated with a weeks worth of programming or even less.)

@mınxomaτ Is there no find and replace?

~~What is PCRE?~~ Perl compatible regular expressions, found it.

mınxomaτ

14:13

@flawr Of course there is. It's the same as in NPP

Since it comes from Scintilla :)

flawr

Ironically I cannot find it!

mınxomaτ

?

flawr

The F&R function

mınxomaτ

In NPP?

flawr

No in SciTE

Ah found it.

mınxomaτ

14:15

Search->Replace

flawr

Why would anyone make [crtl]+[R] "revert"

mınxomaτ

Or CTRL-H (which also loads the current selection into replace)

flawr

Where can you change the shortcuts?

mınxomaτ

@flawr Global properties file (open as admin) or user properties (Options -> Open User Options)

E.g. keyText=Shift+F13

flawr

I opened both of them but cannot find those settings=/

mınxomaτ

14:21

You need to add it. These are the built-ins: scintilla.org/CommandValues.html

User shortcuts can be defined like this:

# User defined key commands
user.shortcuts=\
Ctrl+Shift+V|IDM_PASTEANDDOWN|\
Ctrl+PageUp|IDM_PREVFILE|\
Ctrl+PageDown|IDM_NEXTFILE|\
KeypadPlus|IDM_EXPAND|\
KeypadMinus|IDM_BLOCK_COMMENT|\
Ctrl+F1|IDM_HELP_SCITE|

flawr

That's a point where a GUI would be very helpful for me.

@mınxomaτ thanks

New Main Posts

0

Q: Japanese Mahjong Score Calculator

I'm new to Japanese Mahjong and have trouble calculating the scores. Please help me write a program to calculate it. Introduction (aka you can skip this boring part) Mahjong is a popular tile game in Asia. Different rules have evolved and systematically established in various regions. Japan, b...

code-golf game

mınxomaτ

14:37

@flawr BTW, if you really need it, there are some options at scintilla.org/ScintillaRelated.html. But then again, NPP is the most GUI-y of all Scintilla-based editors.

BlueEyedBeast

Anyone know pyth here?

I'm getting

s_push: parser stack overflow
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "pyth.py", line 752, in <module>
    exec(code_to_remove_tools + py_code_line, environment)
MemoryError

quartata

What are you trying to run dare I ask

Serg

Hi guys, what's going on ?

Zacharee1

@Serg @BlueEyedBeast needs some help with Python

BlueEyedBeast

Pyth not python

quartata

14:43

No it's Pyth

Zacharee1

oh Pyth

BlueEyedBeast

My polyglot

#s[\s\w\e\e\t\p\o\t\a\t\o\p\i\e)w.q"biscuits")\m\a\c\a\r\o\n\i\a\n\d\c\h\e\e\s\esp00/;oooooooo'stuffing;oooooo~'`turkey'
print'corn'#)))))))]+[--------->++<]>+w.q++[->+++<]>++w.q+++++++++++w.q-----------w.q+++w.q;\o;
'rolls'#)))\é's'l'l'o'r+++++))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Zacharee1

looks like Python :p

Serg

ok . .. in that case, i'll go back to AU room . . .

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

14:56

@flawr reddit.com/r/TalesFromYourServer/comments/5dwbkp/…

@ais523 are you also the guy trying to make a TAS for nethack?

mınxomaτ

15:12

This is either a bomb or a physics experiment: 137.193.65.98:8080

quartata

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ oh man that's so cool

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

yes

flawr

@quartata Tell that @Mego

quartata

15:29

@Downgoat Riker wanted this plugin by the way

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

^

Kritixi Lithos

Who's @Riker?

Erik the Golfer

@KritixiLithos easterly irk

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

15:59

yeah

it's my IRL name, idc about my first name being known

Dennis

@ais523 Found something even better:

1

A: Shortest code to throw SIGILL

C, 13 bytes const main=6; Inspired by this answer. Verification $ gcc --version gcc (SUSE Linux) 4.8.3 20140627 [gcc-4_8-branch revision 212064] Copyright (C) 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for...

Such a nice, round number.

Zacharee1

@Dennis meh, come back when you have 111,111

mınxomaτ

16:21

That's impressively horrible.

Zacharee1

@mınxomaτ and it's 32-bit o_O

mınxomaτ

Yeah, that's what electron defaults to.

There's nothing GitHub can do (keep in mind that this is the frontend, git is doing the heavy lifting and it isn't even on that list), that would benefit from larger addresses et al

Zacharee1

I was more expecting 32-bit not to take up so much resources

mınxomaτ

Apart from smaller executable sizes, 32bit can consume all the resources it wants. There's no correlation here

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@mınxomaτ Use GitUp - it's basically something to go with the command line. The best thing is unlimited undo. And being able to commit specific lines. Lightweight.

mınxomaτ

16:31

I use git. This was just a test to see if the app is remotely usable now (because some of my users would like to use it). Turns out it isn't.

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

@mınxomaτ I see you're running Tor Browser... and Google Chrome at the same time! Do you use Tor for TNB and personal stuff?

mınxomaτ

That's not my PC

noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC

Oh.

GitHub Desktop (and most other GUIs) are useless because of the command line simplicity. They also take a lot of CPU.

@Bob why are you in so many rooms?

Bob

@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC why not?

quartata

I think I'm in more rooms :P

TuxCopter

16:43

@mınxomaτ o_O

mınxomaτ

This is just a 400k files commit

TuxCopter

On my machine GitHub desktop crash when it start lel

mınxomaτ

It's still going

Aaaaaand, GH crashed

Kritixi Lithos

I don't use GH Desktop

Adnan

Does anyone know what I'm missing here?

flawr

16:54

@Adnan An upvote, I guess?

BlueEyedBeast

^

Adnan

hahaha

I got a downvote, yet it works for all test cases

BlueEyedBeast

I HATE GOLFING LANGUAGES. I MUST DOWNVOTE SHORTEST ANSWER

Luis Mendo

@Adnan No idea. It seems to work good!

BlueEyedBeast

(but only if not mine)

betseg

16:56

i'll try something. can you give me 7 to 13 up votes?

:p

flawr

@BlueEyedBeast That is exactly how I feel.

Luis Mendo

Hey, it's raining upvotes! :-D @Adnan

Adnan

hahaha, thanks :p

BlueEyedBeast

the new meta effect: the chat effect

flawr

Jelly? Downvote. Pyth? Downvote. CJam? Downvote. MATL? Downvote. 05AB1E? Downvote.

I bet @Adnan used a sock to downvote his own answer and beg for pity votes in the chat.

XD

Adnan

16:58

That's a genius idea

BlueEyedBeast

why not just get 4 socks to make it look lite 4 pity votes?

flawr

@BlueEyedBeast that is cheating

Kritixi Lithos

Will be back after creating 3 more socks :P

Transcript for