The Nineteenth Byte

TùxCräftîñg

11:00

(for example utf-8 as encoding)

Destructible Watermelon

code .en code (en cod ing)

such rendundacy

wow

also not working

TùxCräftîñg

o_O

Destructible Watermelon

code doesn't have encoding

TùxCräftîñg

>>> len("é".encode("utf-8"))
2
>>> len("ᴇ".encode("utf-8"))
1
>>> len("ಠ".encode("utf-8"))
1

wot

python iz borked

Destructible Watermelon

oh, that is what you meant

mınxomaτ

11:04

Also recent news: The IoT botnet that made even Akamai sweat (600Gbps) now clocks in at over 1Tbps.

Instead of Google or Akamai, it hit OVH's infrastructure this time.

Destructible Watermelon

also, how do I make a codepage like jelly's, where chr(255) is one byte?

how do I even just use jelly's codepage

TùxCräftîñg

jelly_chr=lambda n:jelly_codepage[n]

jelly_ord=lambda c:jelly_codepage.index(c)

where jelly_codepage is a string with the jelly codepage

code_page  = '''¡¢£¤¥¦©¬®µ½¿€ÆÇÐÑ×ØŒÞßæçðıȷñ÷øœþ !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~¶'''
code_page += '''°¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁺⁻⁼⁽⁾ƁƇƊƑƓƘⱮƝƤƬƲȤɓƈɗƒɠɦƙɱɲƥʠɼʂƭʋȥẠḄḌẸḤỊḲḶṂṆỌṚṢṬỤṾẈỴẒȦḂĊḊĖḞĠḢİĿṀṄȮṖṘṠṪẆẊẎŻạḅḍẹḥịḳḷṃṇọṛṣṭụṿẉỵẓȧḃċḋėḟġḣŀṁṅȯṗṙṡṫẇẋẏż«»‘’“”'''

@DestructibleWatermelon

Destructible Watermelon

yeah, how to make a file that has the damn numbers you are using

TùxCräftîñg

hex editor/write a small utility to encode/decode files

Destructible Watermelon

...

TùxCräftîñg

11:07

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

gtg

Sp3000

The fun part about polyglotting this challenge is getting... things... to... compile...

Destructible Watermelon

I really want to know how to use 256 possible chars

Sp3000

I think if you use codecs.open(..., encoding='latin1') that might work (after importing codecs)

Destructible Watermelon

is it bad form to ping someone while they aren't here for advice

specifically Dennis so I can ask how he does it?

Sp3000

It should be fine, if you understand that you'll need to wait for an answer

Destructible Watermelon

11:18

yeah, I know that

@Dennis, could you give me advice about how to make a codepage like jelly's, that has one byte per char (with 256 possible chars)?

TùxCräftîñg

bck

Qwerp-Derp

@DestructibleWatermelon Called Koopá'd

With an accent

Or just like Koopád

Maybe Kappád for more meme points?

TùxCräftîñg

^

κappád < even better

betseg

Call it BS

Like my username

if i get 10 more updoots i will have 1337 rep

mınxomaτ

Found my new hobby: SDaaS - Sarcastic Developer as a Service.

Qwerp-Derp

11:34

@TùxCräftîñg Why

TùxCräftîñg

cuz the first letter is a greek kappa

Qwerp-Derp

Oh yeah

But I was thinking of this Kappa

hang on

TùxCräftîñg

ik

Anonymous

@mınxomaτ Wait people will pay for that?

mınxomaτ

@Mego Nothing. They get the service if they want or not and I get to keep all the fun.

Qwerp-Derp

11:38

@TùxCräftîñg Ah...

betseg

devnull-as-a-service.com

Qwerp-Derp

@mınxomaτ So, give us a rundown of SDaaS.

TùxCräftîñg

@betseg wtf

Anonymous

:(

Anonymous

I'd like to be paid for my sarcastic remarks

mınxomaτ

11:39

@Mego Well, Linus seems to be the SDaaS expert.

Qwerp-Derp

"Hello, this is SDaaS. How can I help your VERY important issues?"

"Uh, yeah... your issue DEFINITELY requires URGENT help."

mınxomaτ

Sure your call is important. puts in queue again

betseg

^^^^

mınxomaτ

I'm inclined to pull a Linus every time a particularly idiotic Issue is opened on GitHub.

TùxCräftîñg

devnull-as-a-service.com/one-less-to-go.sh

o_O

Qwerp-Derp

11:41

Just out of curiosity... how do you guys think a question about Jelly/{insert obscure golfy lang here} code on SO/Code Review will be received?

TùxCräftîñg

> wtf iz dis lang

mınxomaτ

@Qwerp-Derp aaJ (as a Joke)

Qwerp-Derp

@TùxCräftîñg "It's not even ASCII! What is this, I don't understand"

TùxCräftîñg

lol

Qwerp-Derp

Should I give 50 rep to whoever puts up a Jelly/Jolf/Golfy Lang question on Code Review for the giggles?

TùxCräftîñg

11:45

huh

XY+Z* => (X*Z)+(Y*Z)

Fatalize

@Qwerp-Derp There has been questions on LOLCODE and Brainfuck on CodeReview iirc

Qwerp-Derp

@Fatalize But those languages are Mainstream...

TùxCräftîñg

yes, but 'questions asking about golfed code are off-topic'

Qwerp-Derp

I want a question for like non-golfed Jelly code

And see how they fare

TùxCräftîñg

and i dont know how to not golf in jelly lol

Fatalize

11:47

I don't even know if you can e.g. indent code in Jelly

TùxCräftîñg

there is no tab in the codepage

and space is a operator

Qwerp-Derp

What about CJam or Pyth?

Fatalize

@Qwerp-Derp No, because this will incite people to ask useless questions on CR just for reputation

Qwerp-Derp

LOL, true

But just for the kicks, should I put up 50 rep for the first person to post a valid question about CJam/Pyth/Jelly/whatever on Code Review that gets positive rep?

TùxCräftîñg

thhis is not the purpose of bounties

and no

Qwerp-Derp

11:53

:(

OK...

Now, back to Gitbook... do any of you guys know how to put custom syntax highlighting into Gitbook?

mınxomaτ

AFAIk you would need to get your language into highlight.js

Qwerp-Derp

What, like actually make a PR?

mınxomaτ

@Qwerp-Derp highlightjs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/language-requests.html

Qwerp-Derp

Ah.

But like, other than me, no one uses Logicode at all.

mınxomaτ

Then you have to write the implementation.

Qwerp-Derp

11:56

It seems, kinda... unnecessary.

mınxomaτ

The link above leads explains that very well.

Qwerp-Derp

Yeah, true

mınxomaτ

Well, if you want it. If not, why ask? I didn't expect anyone to have a LC plugin ready to go either.

TùxCräftîñg

sy.rb:75:in `proc': tried to create Proc object without a block (ArgumentError)

monadic_s proc do |a|

@Ruby u dont see the block?

mınxomaτ

IMO languages defs for highlight are pretty easy (certainly easier than the codemirror defs).

I don't get why more of these JS highlight things use CJSSHS. Sure it's terribly convoluted and confusing to no end, but pretty easy to write.

Anonymous

12:01

> terribly convoluted and confusing to no end ... easy to write

Anonymous

Those things don't go together

mınxomaτ

Once you've used it, you'd understand.

It's like sneezing a bunch of RegEx into a JS file and it magically works.

Qwerp-Derp

So, do I just clone highlight.js in to my laptop, make a syntax highlighter, test it out on my laptop, and if it works, put it in, and then do a PR?

mınxomaτ

@Qwerp-Derp Read the checklist: highlightjs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/language-contribution.html

Anonymous

But then you have 2 problems

mınxomaτ

12:03

It tells you step by step how to contribute. Linked at the end of the lang def docs, which you should read in full.

Anonymous

I actually have no interest in creating a syntax highlighter for any of my languages. Seriously and Actually would not benefit from syntax highlighting.

Anonymous

The only possible benefit would be highlighting strings

Fatalize

Brachylog would

I just requested syntax highlighting in TryItOnline :p

Anonymous

I think my next project for Actually will be a Python-targetting compiler

Fatalize

Actually, what about that new code page?

Anonymous

12:11

Hmm?

Anonymous

Oh, the custom code page with actual mnemonics?

Anonymous

That's going to be a long way off :)

Fatalize

yeah that one

Because the box symbols don't seem very good for mnemonics

Qwerp-Derp

So wait

@mınxomaτ Do I make a JSON object for highlight.js? Or what?

TùxCräftîñg

XY*f function taking 2 arguments and returning it product

Anonymous

12:16

On the other hand, I have no idea what symbols would be better :P Maybe emojis

Fatalize

"emojis" please no

TùxCräftîñg

^

mınxomaτ

@Qwerp-Derp I don't know what you want. The docs are comprehensive.

Anonymous

Anyone see any problems with this challenge that need fixing before I post it to main?

mınxomaτ

The lang def page tells you the object format, the checklist tells you how to wrap it.

There is no "just" though. They expect a certain quality.

Fatalize

12:18

@Mego Seems fine to me.

mınxomaτ

Example for a successful contribution: github.com/isagalaev/highlight.js/pull/1307

Qwerp-Derp

@mınxomaτ Ah, thanks!

TùxCräftîñg

flix.github.io interesting lang

Qwerp-Derp

Argh, I don't know any of the builtins

mınxomaτ

Then you probably shouldn't do this.

Anonymous

12:26

@mınxomaτ That lang's site fails one of the biggest rules of site design: don't add images unless they are relevant

mınxomaτ

@Mego Yeah, I cringed a bit when I saw the site.

Fatalize

Path(x, y) :- Edge(x, y).
Path(x, z) :- Path(x, y), Edge(y, z).

Anonymous

I expected to see generic statements about synergy and workflow optimization, not a programming language overview

Fatalize

Looks really close to Prolog

Anonymous

@Fatalize There's a reason for that :P It's exactly Prolog's syntax

Fatalize

12:28

Not exactly

TùxCräftîñg

> A logic and functional programming language for the implementation of static analyses.

mınxomaτ

I'd rather have a table-styled HTML page if it means more info about the lang per screen cm².

Fatalize

In Prolog things that start with a capital letter are variables

TùxCräftîñg

every logic lang have near the same syntax

Anonymous

True

Anonymous

12:29

I forgot about that from the very quick intro to Prolog I had 2 years ago :P

Fatalize

Seems like it's the complete opposite here for some reason

Anonymous

Probably because it inherits from the functional side of the language :P

Anonymous

Should I post the golfed version of my challenge's reference implementation as an answer? Golfing it is very trivial.

Fatalize

as an answer?

Anonymous

Yeah

mınxomaτ

12:33

Well, I wouldn't expect upvotes for that.

Anonymous

Golfing the reference implementation solely consists of removing whitespace,shortening variable names, and converting it to a lambda

Qwerp-Derp

@Fatalize Is Flix basically the same as Prolog?

Urgh all the images

Fatalize

@Qwerp-Derp No. I was just reading quickly the paper that introduces the language

Qwerp-Derp

Oh

Fatalize

"FLIX is less expressive than Prolog, but ensures that every program terminates"

betseg

12:41

@bot plz post the question

Fatalize

Flix is basically Datalog + some functional stuff

and Datalog is a subset of Prolog

betseg

@bot where r u

TùxCräftîñg

2

Q: Multiple-Key Sorting

Given a list of indices and zero or more lists of integers, output the lists of integers, sorted in ascending order, with the key priority from the first input. Example Let the keys input be [1, 0, 2], and the lists input be [[5, 3, 4], [6, 2, 1], [5, 2, 1]]. Those lists need to be sorted by th...

Anonymous

@TùxCräftîñg That's entirely unnecessary. We have a feed for that (though it seems to be running slowly right now). I can't fathom what would cause you to read this and somehow think that other people's posts are exempt from the "It already has, or soon will be posted by one of the feeds in the room" guideline.

6

betseg

12:57

Reading Martin's comment, i think i can promote this

7

A: When was this language released?

5 years #define q/*-[>+<-----]>--.++++++++..------.[-][ print('2015'if len(pow.__doc__)==157else'2010');a="""*/ main(c){c=-4.5//**/ -4.5;printf("19%d",90-c);} #define w/*] */""" 1989 and 1999: C89 and C99 The single line comment // was added in C99, so a C89 compiler would read that code as c...

Look at C comments and Python docstrings, i haven't seen this before.

TùxCräftîñg

@betseg you can save 1 byte by using the docstring of len codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/94823/53745

El'endia Starman

@Mego Agreed.

mınxomaτ

"The Night Manager" is really amazing.

betseg

@TùxCräftîñg i didn't want to copy him and wanted to do something quickly, so i selected pow

TùxCräftîñg

k

betseg

13:11

Using bin.__doc__ now, saving a byte. Since this isn't code-golf i won't thank you on the answer muhahahahahaha

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Insert Random Squares Here graphical-outputrandomcode-golfRelated challenges. < Insert sales pitch here > The Challenge Given a width and a height, output an image filled with random squares. Input Your program/function is given a width and a height in pixels. E.g.: yourProgram <width> <h...

TùxCräftîñg

;_;

betseg

Wat

TùxCräftîñg

^

trichoplax

Caching?

Rainbolt

13:16

No, clearly he started the quarter with negative 11 reputation

betseg

@trichoplax then why not 10?

Rainbolt

Are you asking how it is possible to gain 11 rep?

Because there are many ways to do that

Answer upvote + undownvote

betseg

Noting in the history makes 11

Rainbolt

Get accepted answer, then get two downvotes on a question

@betseg Right, but your history is probably current, and the screenshot you took a few messages ago definitely is not current. It's reporting your quarter reputation from some time ago.

betseg

> 1,177 all time reputation

Yup. Caching.

TimmyD

13:23

Diggity dang. The multiple key sorting is something that PowerShell is actually good at, but it doesn't seem to be working how I want it to.

TùxCräftîñg

Sy> P
π
Sy> Pv
3.141592653589793

symbolic calculation ftw... ?

Rainbolt

@MartinEnder Is "biro" really the common name in the UK for a what we call a "ballpoint pen" in the US?

The Google doodle for the day made me wonder

betseg

Where are you? I don't have a doodle

Rainbolt

I'm in the US

TùxCräftîñg

i also have it in france

Martin Ender

13:31

@Rainbolt I think so. It's the word we learned in school. I can't actually say whether that word is commonly used in the UK. I think most of time people just use the very unspecific word "pen" unless you're talking about a specific type of pen (and I don't think I've had that sort of conversation...).

DJMcMayhem

That's weird, I've never heard that before

Rainbolt

I see. We mostly call it "pen" in the US too, unless (like you said) we're talking about a specific type

trichoplax

I've definitely heard people use "biro" as a generic term regardless of brand, but "pen" is considerably more common

betseg

And i can't use it with my left hand ;_;

mınxomaτ

Well, the internet doesn't seem to be talking about "biro" as a pen either: brain.turbo.run/?q=biro

I've also never heard biro whilst in the UK or in any media I consumed from the UK.

PhiNotPi

13:37

@mınxomaτ Oh, sorry, actually Tuesday. I wrote down all my times and then added 4 hours to each of them, and forgot to move it to Tuesday.

mınxomaτ

"Brio pen" is apparently a more common phrase: brain.turbo.run/?q=biro%20pen

DJMcMayhem

Brio or biro?

mınxomaτ

Biro.

It also comes up with "Bic Crystal", another pen best known by it's brand name. Interesting.

I have definitely used a Bic Crystal before.

TùxCräftîñg

> László Bíró, a Hungarian newspaper editor frustrated by the amount of time that he wasted filling up fountain pens and cleaning up smudged pages, noticed that inks used in newspaper printing dried quickly, leaving the paper dry and smudge free. He decided to create a pen using the same type of ink.[4] Bíró enlisted the help of his brother György, a chemist,[4] to develop viscous ink formulae for new ballpoint designs.[3]

Sp3000

@DJMcMayhem Just to weigh in a little on the discussion you were having with Mego in the comments - it wouldn't be hard to update the code so that it outputs years, but testing the modified code is hell (I'm having trouble getting anything to compile)

TùxCräftîñg

13:41

^^ possible origin or biro

mınxomaτ

The biro bio?

trichoplax

To narrow it down, I've heard "biro" more often in Wales than in England

DJMcMayhem

@Sp3000 do you think it's a dupe though?

I'm not a polyglotter, but it still seems like it would be really hard to modify thirty languages at once

Sp3000

A quick glance of my answer for versatile should tell you which ones are dead easy to modify :P

But as for dupe, if I thought it was one I'd have commented - the only reasons I haven't done so are 1) the minor versions part 2) the fact that the scoring is different years, so you can't pile up on only esolangs from the past 5 years, say and 3) actually making the code run on old versions

That's just my personal opinion though, I'm not sure how others feel

TimmyD

I brought up in the Sandbox that I felt it was a dupe, and so voted accordingly now that it's been posted to Main.

DJMcMayhem

13:50

Why'd you remove that?

New Main Posts

7

Q: Multiple-Key Sorting

Given a list of indices and zero or more lists of integers, output the lists of integers, sorted in ascending order, with the key priority from the first input. Example Let the keys input be [1, 0, 2], and the lists input be [[5, 3, 4], [6, 2, 1], [5, 2, 1]]. Those lists need to be sorted by th...

code-golf number array-manipulation sorting

betseg

@NewMainPosts bro u l8

mbomb007

@Optimizer It's a reference to the Dick and Jane books that taught kids to read in Kindergarden. The most famous line is "See Jane run".

TùxCräftîñg

@NewMainPosts 1 hour. wow.

betseg

> new

TùxCräftîñg

13:54

Sy> PP2^`
π**2
Sy> P
π
Sy> Pv
π**2
Sy> Pvv
π**4
Sy> Pvvv
π**8
Sy> Pvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
π**524288

huh

Yodle

@mbomb007 The movie Fun with Dick and Jane is pretty funny.

mbomb007

@El'endiaStarman I was going to say "I thought your mom was a Space Shuttle replica at first."

betseg

@TùxCräftîñg "P"+"v"*n = π^2^n

TùxCräftîñg

PP2^` is π=π²

and v get the value of a symbol

so here v expand π to π² which is simplified

and it do a weird thing

betseg

Plz

Plz use "s"

TùxCräftîñg

13:59

Sy> P
π
Sy> Ps
3.141592653589793

done

mbomb007

@mınxomaτ Bic pens in the U.S. just say "Bic", not "Bic Crystal". So, to me, they are just Bic-brand pens, or Bic pens.

betseg

I meant say "gets", "expands", "does" etc ;_;

TùxCräftîñg

...

mınxomaτ

@mbomb007 I know. I was just reflecting on what the engine came up with.

TùxCräftîñg

wait

ruby dont have infinity in it stdlib

i must 1e10000

wait nvm

it's in float not math

Dennis

14:15

@Fatalize Done.

Fatalize

@Dennis @Dennis thanks!

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Priority to the right Your task is to order traffic on a crossroads. There are 4 roads coming from north, east, south and west. The input is a string representing the upcoming traffic on each road. For example, NNNWS indicates there is a total of 5 cars: three at the north, one at the west and...

betseg

Yaaay they're laying fiberoptic cables

No more DSL!!1!

Dennis

@DestructibleWatermelon Making a code page really isn't more than saying this is my code page. For the implementation, make sure there's an option to map bytes to the 256 characters you selected.

TùxCräftîñg

gtgbai

betseg

14:26

b

Rainbolt

Can you make a 9 bit code page, and allow yourself 512 characters?

8 characters would score 9 bytes in that case

DJMcMayhem

@Rainbolt I suppose it's possible. It'll make writing the interpreter, and any code in the language way harder though, since you'll have to parse binary

Rainbolt

According to Dennis, you don't have to do that. I just have to say "This is my code page." and then make sure that I can map each unique 9 bits to the 512 characters I selected.

mbomb007

@Downgoat How cruel, tying up a goat like this:

56

Q: A goat tied to a corner of a rectangle

A goat is tied to an external corner of a rectangular shed measuring 4 m by 6 m. If the goat’s rope is 8 m long, what is the total area, in square meters, in which the goat can graze? Well, it seems like the goat can turn a full circle of radius 8 m, and a rectangular shed's diagonal is les...

geometry contest-math circle area rectangles

Emigna

I love that basically half the people in this chat have posted that to him :)

mbomb007

14:41

@betseg Nice! I wish I could try out a light-speed connection.

betseg

@mbomb007 its lightspeed, yes, but bandwidth isnt infinite ;_;

at least ping will be halved

mbomb007

@betseg Sure, but ping is important in gaming.

betseg

ninja'd :D

mbomb007

The League of Legends Worlds starts today.

anyone watching? I probably can't, but I'll look up the highlights.

betseg

LOL

DJMcMayhem

14:45

@Rainbolt no you still would because you need an interpreter that can understand a 9-bit file

You'd also have to round your byte count up

mbomb007

@DJMcMayhem No you don't. Your answer is really in bits.

There are plenty of answers with something like "23.5 bytes"

DJMcMayhem

@mbomb007 yes, but because you can't save a file with a fraction of a byte, practically you still need to round up.

Imo those are invalid

trichoplax

@Rainbolt Dennis also mentions needing an option for that code page in your implementation...

Rainbolt

@trichoplax "an option to map bytes to the 256 characters you selected". Yes. You have that option.

As soon as I declare my code page, you have that option

DJMcMayhem

No that option has to be in your interpreter

Rainbolt

14:48

Meta post to back that up?

TimmyD

But if your interpreter can't actually accept as input the binary stream, then it's not really valid.

DJMcMayhem

Basically if you claim a score of x bytes it has to be possible to feed those exact x bytes to am interpreter and still work

@Rainbolt I'm not sure if there is one

@tuskiomi No, the smallest physical size of the program is 28 bytes. You can actually feed a 28-byte sized file to the Jelly interpreter and it will work, if that file is encoded with Jelly's code page. — Martin Ender ♦ 18 hours ago

Rainbolt

It is possible to fit 512 characters into 9 bits. That doesn't mean I have to implement an OS that can store it that way, and that doesn't mean I have to write a compiler that interprets it that way. There are plenty of esolangs use 256 non ascii characters, and I don't see you guys complaining about the fact that those characters aren't actually stored in one byte.

DJMcMayhem

They are stored in one byte

TimmyD

Err, yeah, they are. That's kinda the definition of a code page.

zyabin101

14:53

@Rainbolt s/256/384

ASCII comprises 128 characters.

Rainbolt

I said non ascii, and I meant 256

One byte = 8 bits = 256 combinations

trichoplax

I'm just pointing out that there needs to be a compiler or interpreter for your language in order for it to meet our requirements of a language.

betseg

ascii is 128 chars, 9 bits are 512 combinations, 512-128=384

TimmyD

@Rainbolt It's like the difference between UTF-8 and UTF-16. Some characters are represented by one byte in UTF-8, while it's two bytes in UTF-16. Some are represented in four bytes in UTF-8, while it's two bytes in UTF-16.

DJMcMayhem

Here's a more concrete example. The character é in V is used a lot. In utf8, that is 0x00e9, which is two bytes. However, V reads code in latin1 by default, where it is 0xE9, a single byte. It can read it in utf8 for convenience, but by default it reads a single byte for that character

zyabin101

14:55

^^

TimmyD

The "character" is completely arbitrary. If you've got a string of 16 binary digits, it could be character "blah" if you look at it through the UTF-8 lens, or character "foo" if you look at it through the UTF-16 lens.

DJMcMayhem

When I post an answer, it uploads the two-byte char 0x00E9 because web uses UTF-8, but in latin1 it's still a single byte.

That's why I usually provide a hexdump

For example, you can see the binary file that V reads here when you check debug.

Rainbolt

So all I have to do is say "It isn't actually one byte but it could be in <insert other encoding>"?

TimmyD

So long as your interpreter understands that.

DJMcMayhem

if that encoding is supported in your language, than yes.

Rainbolt

14:58

Can any of you actually find a compiler that will take as input 8 non-ascii characters and output an 8 byte file?

DJMcMayhem

Yeah, the V answer I just linked does

It just reads files in UTF-8 on try it online for convenience

TimmyD

I don't think there's any compiler that can turn an 8-byte source into an 8-byte executable, but I don't think that's the question you were asking ;-)

Rainbolt

Minus overhead

I thought that there were plenty of programs scored on this site according to some theoretical code page, not an actual code page. I guess I'm wrong though.

TimmyD

APL

Jelly

DJMcMayhem

I'm pretty sure you could ask the language designer of any non-ascii golflang and they could specify a real encoding that they use.

TimmyD

15:00

Dennis demonstrates Jelly in his answer here accepting both the Jelly code page or the UTF-8 code page, based on an interpreter flag.

DJMcMayhem

V, 05AB1E, actually/seriously, APL, Jelly

TimmyD

Heck, APL back in the day had physical interpreters that worked via an overlay on a regular keyboard so the programmer could see what command they were actually entering.

TùxCräftîñg

@mbomb007 i ninja'd you by days

Rainbolt

I'm still unclear on the arbitrary requirements you guys are imposing. Let's walk through it so you can point to my misunderstanding.
1. I declare a code page that contains 512 characters.
2. You write a program using those characters. Your program can take up some arbitrary amount of space on disk.
3. My compiler takes your program as input.
4. My compiler produces output that can actually execute. That output takes up some arbitrary amount of space on disk.
How is my language scored?

And what further information do you need from me to answer that?

DJMcMayhem

It's a compiled not interpreted language?

trichoplax

15:07

Your score is the number of bytes in your source code

Rainbolt

My source code? I only wrote a compiler

trichoplax

Does your compiler take source code?

DJMcMayhem

The source code of the program I hypothetically wrote

zyabin101

yes

Rainbolt

@DJMcMayhem Are you implying that compiled and interpreted languages are scored differently?

DJMcMayhem

15:09

No, I was just wondering for clarity

Rainbolt

I'm trying to understand what it clarifies. If it doesn't actually matter I'd rather not obfuscate the question.

Eugene Fedotov

@DLosc I figured the algorithm after much head scratching. I guess I originally wanted to understand the programming techniques.

Rainbolt

@trichoplax Yes, it takes source code and produces a program

DJMcMayhem

If your interpreter/compiler can process an arbitrary byte stream, the size of that byte stream on disk is your score.

TimmyD

Bingo.

How you represent that byte stream so humans can read it is your code page.

trichoplax

15:11

@Rainbolt I'm not trying to be awkward. I genuinely don't follow what the question is. The score is the number of bytes in that source code, and is only valid if that source code leads to a program that fulfills the objective of the challenge

I feel like there's a subtlety I'm missing

DJMcMayhem

@TimmyD Exactly. I could easily write all of my V answer, or Dennis his jelly answers as a reversible hexdump. It's just for convenience (of readers and writers) to use characters that may or may not represent the size of the bytestream we're working with.

s/V answer/V answers

Rainbolt

@trichoplax So every language currently allowed on this site is scored by the number of bytes the source code takes up on disk?

TimmyD

AFAIK, that's indeed the case.

Rainbolt

Alright, that answers my question

TimmyD

The code page is just the visual representation of those bytes so humans don't need to program in binary.

It just so happens that Jelly's code page, for example, has similar visual representations for its bytes as some UTF-8 has for some of its bytes.

DJMcMayhem

15:17

Right now, I'm actually thinking about making a "verbose mode" for V. Lots of characters are unprintable, and it would be nice to write <esc> instead of a literal escape character.

I can write the unprintables just fine, it just might help make the language easier to learn/read

PhiNotPi

Even though an 8-character Jelly answer on this site is more than 8 bytes, that answer is just a character-by-character representation of the "real program" which is actually 8 bytes. The code page is just used to signify the proper conversion from the UTF text of the answer to the actual 8-byte source code that the interpreter/compiler works with.

TimmyD

Dennis could have, for example, come up with 256 entirely unique symbols to represent the 256 different possible bytes in Jelly. It likely would be harder to program in (you'd need a text editor or something that understands the code page), and you'd likely need to screenshot the code because other computers and browsers wouldn't understand the code page, either, but it could be done. And a 26-byte program written in those symbols would still be a 26-byte program.

DJMcMayhem

Why does github always say my actions are in the future?

TimmyD

I'm kinda interested to do something like that, but it's hard to come up with character representations that aren't in Unicode.

DJMcMayhem

> xyz happened four minutes from now

TimmyD

15:25

The closest I've been able to come up with is taking the rough size of a character and splitting it into 8 regions, then using white/black for 0/1, and just visually representing the characters that way.

trichoplax

@DJMcMayhem If you'd made it 2 minutes you'd be able to edit it to reflect it...

TimmyD

@DJMcMayhem Obviously you have either a really slow or really fast Internet connection. :D

DJMcMayhem

rofl

I think I have like 8-10 Megabits, so not ridiculously slow, but not crazy fast either

El'endia Starman

15:41

@mbomb007 Ohhh hahaha.

tuskiomi

@DJMcMayhem what is the name of the character in your avatar?

quartata

Dr Seuss's Cat in the Hat

DJMcMayhem

^

tuskiomi

@quartata Well, there is a meme going around where people take children's book fictional characters (Eg: Goofy the dog) and change them into poorly drawn MSPaint characters with poor naming (eg: 'Goofy the dog' -> 'gooby'). I was wondering if this was one of them.

DJMcMayhem

As drawn by a goat

quartata

15:47

Authentic goat artwork fetches a good price these days

DJMcMayhem

I hate to beg for reopen votes, but I really think this challenge is not a dupe

Dennis

Does this look weird for everyone?

@DJMcMayhem Definitely not a dupe. Code length isn't even a factor.

tuskiomi

What aspect, Dennis?

Dennis

The code looks like f=lambda n,k=2:n %3d' % (n, f(n)), but is should look like this:

f=lambda n,k=2:n<k or f(n,k+1)-f(n/k)

import sys
sys.setrecursionlimit(20000)

for n in range(1, 11) + [117, 5525, 7044, 8888, 10000]:
	print '%5d -> %3d' % (n, f(n))

Looks like it somehow parses everything between < and > as a HTML tag.

DJMcMayhem

@Dennis thank you

tuskiomi

15:53

They don't sanitize their input

That could be abused.... Brb.

Dennis

I tried to replace > with an arrow, and that made it even worse. This has to be new. It's certainly not the first time I've used < in source code...

Sp3000

ideone.com/ynSzOm definitely new

I'll leave the reporting to Dennis :)

Dennis

ideone.com/KkjN9d Swell.

El'endia Starman

@Dennis Oh, that's not good.

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