The Nineteenth Byte

Doorknob

23:00

yes

TanMath

what exactly is not the same?

El'endia Starman

from turtle import*
def D():fill(1);fd(100);rt(90);fd(200);rt(90);fd(100);rt(90);fd(200);rt(90);fill(0)
lt(180)
fillcolor("#0055a4")
D()
fillcolor("white")
goto(100,0)
D()
fillcolor("#ef4135")
goto(200,0)
D()

from turtle import*
def D():
     fill(1)
     fd(100)
     rt(90)
     fd(200)
     rt(90)
     fd(100)
     rt(90)
     fd(200)
     rt(90)
     fill(0)
lt(180)
fillcolor("#0055a4")
D()
fillcolor("white")
setpos(100,0)
D()
fillcolor("#ef4135")
setpos(200,0)
D()

Doorknob

@TanMath What do you mean? It's literally two different pieces of code

El'endia Starman

^

They might do the same thing, but it's literally not the same code.

TanMath

2 mins ago, by VoteToClose

It's ungolfed*

2 mins ago, by VoteToClose

It's ungolfed*

El'endia Starman

23:01

Doesn't matter!

Doorknob

so?

Martin Büttner

The test link should prove that the golfed version works, not the ungolfed one.

10

TanMath

so.. the only difference is the function is on one line for the code in the answer, and in the link, it is on several lines... any other differences?

Alex A.

Ungolfed means it isn't the same code.

Martin Büttner

No one cares if the ungolfed code works, because it's not the code that determines your score.

10

Alex A.

23:02

^

VoteToClose

@TanMath I wasn't arguing your case. XD I was just saying that's what you meant.

TanMath

ok.. you guys are making a big deal.. i will fix it.. but it is pretty much exactly the same...

Doorknob

... um, no, it's not exactly the same

VoteToClose

@Doorknob xD I just realized you were the one that asked it.

Martin Büttner

Since in general it's impossible to prove the two pieces of code are functionally equivalent, the only way to convince people that your golfed code works is by letting them test that code and nothing else.

Zach Gates

23:03

@TanMath If we aren't testing the code exactly as you posted it, what's the point in testing it?

Alex A.

We're just trying to ensure that everyone here is playing by the same rules. Code should be tested and work for all test cases specified by the OP, and if someone wants to try the code, they should be trying the code that determined your score.

TanMath

fine.. fixed it...

I just don't see how it cannot be inferred that the golfed version will work...

Doorknob

because what if it doesn't?

VoteToClose

No inferences can ever be made here. :P

Thomas Kwa

That's not the point @TanMath

Alex A.

23:05

The point is it shouldn't be inferred.

TanMath

any other reasons for the negative response?

Alex A.

It should be objectively verifiable.

Thomas Kwa

^

New Sandboxed Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

coreutils default behavior stdin/stdout We have a lot of challenges to implement just one of these operations, but a lot more are missing. Instead of adding a challenge for each of them, I thought I'd see if I could make a multiple-holes challenge that's complex enough to inspire some code re-us...

VoteToClose

@TanMath One downvote ≠ hate.

Alex A.

23:06

^

VoteToClose

Your code is tending towards the positive.

I wouldn't worry about it. c:

TanMath

@VoteToClose I didn't say that.. I said that why do people want to delete it, and why does everybody think it doesn't work?

VoteToClose

TanMath

@VoteToClose so?

Alex A.

He's showing you that everyone gets downvotes ;)

Thomas Kwa

23:07

I have two downvotes in mine too @VoteToClose

It's only -2; if your code is right don't let it discourage you.

Sparr

@AlexA. that's not true. there are many types of golfing that are still the same code. superfluous whitespace, comments, etc

I posted a marbelous answer recently that still had its padding

VoteToClose

@TanMath Who said they wanted it deleted? Plus, the comment saying it didn't work is old.

Sparr

because, for once, the padding was all superfluous

Alex A.

@TanMath The delete vote occurred when the post was in review. That was when the code didn't work at all. You've since fixed it but the person who voted likely hasn't checked back to see if it's fixed.

TanMath

@VoteToClose first, it was upvoted once, i fixed it, then it was upvote two more times.. why?

@AlexA. oh.. ok...

Alex A.

23:09

@Sparr IMO that makes it different code. If the source bytes are not exactly the same, it isn't the same code. (Like I said, at least IMO)

Zach Gates

At least 10 out of 13 people liked it, right? (:

Sparr

@MartinBüttner pick a compiled language. if the code compiles to the same machine instructions, I'll take that as proof that it's equivalent code

Alex A.

Right, that's not what I'm saying though. Equivalent ≠ same.

mınxomaτ

^

El'endia Starman

@Sparr The burden of proving the answer works should be on the answerer.

Doorknob

23:10

@AlexA. actually you just plain can't undo delete votes (IIRC)

Alex A.

Oh, okay.

TanMath

now everybody is going to post pics of their downvotes!

Sparr

@MartinBüttner sorry, I meant the above for you, re proof of equivalent code

SuperJedi224

Goodbye

Alex A.

Bye!

TanMath

23:12

@SuperJedi224 bye!

Sparr

for an interpreted language... any source that the interpreter skips, without reading, I'm willing to ignore in comparing code for same-ness

that would include end-of-line comments in most such languages, I think

Martin Büttner

@Sparr I said "in general" ... Of course you can also solve the halting problem for a very large (infinite) subset of programs. ;)

Alex A.

@Sparr In some languages, carelessly constructed comments can change the behavior of the program. For example, comments in SAS that use the *; syntax are still evaluated, so any unmatched brackets or quotes will ruin the code that follows after the comment.

(I realize that's a rather isolated case though)

(Also PSA: Don't use SAS)

Sparr

sure. those don't qualify for my "text the interpreter skips without reading" clause

Alex A.

Oh right

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

23:14

@Sparr text?

Sparr

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ I said source the first time

Martin Büttner

@Sparr about that... There's a fairly strong consensus on meta that unnecessary whitespace should be removed if it isn't to be counted

Sparr

when the marbelous interpreter encounters a "#" that isn't the first character of a line, it immediately jumps to the next line, not bothering to do anything with the contents of the comment

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@Sparr oh

Sparr

@MartinBüttner link? I'll weigh in.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

23:16

^

Sparr

@MartinBüttner I think the most common exception I've seen to that is newlines. I've seen a lot of answers where every newline was superfluous, only included to avoid the code being a solid block of text for no reason.

Martin Büttner

@Sparr I'm on mobile and the search in the app didn't seem to find all questions

@Sparr the reason is that occasionally some of the whitespace is necessary, and those might be overlooked if you just say "whitespace is unnecessary"

Sparr

sure. I'm only referring to cases where it's all unnecessary.

TanMath

coding in pyth isn't that hard compared to stack-based languages

Sparr

I've only ever posted one marbelous answer with ungolfed whitespace, because that was the only time I didn't have any necessary whitespace

and I have no qualms about putting newlines after every ; in my perl code

Martin Büttner

23:19

18

A: How are line breaks and formatting counted for code golf challenges?

(This answer is quite similar to Pietu's but a bit stricter on the first question.) Count the code as posted. If there is unnecessary whitespace, remove it. This makes it easier for everyone else to check your score. For someone who doesn't know your language it can be hard to tell which spaces...

VoteToClose

> coding in pyth isn't that hard AHEM

TanMath

@VoteToClose it isn't!

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@TanMath I like tape-based languages.

Sparr

I just can't memorize all of the functionality in pyth

Martin Büttner

@Sparr the issue obviously isn't with the cases where it works. The problem is, if it's common practice, the cases where it doesn't work will slip through the cracks.

Alex A.

23:21

Stack based languages are difficult for me to wrap my head around.

TanMath

@Sparr it is why there is a command reference in the online compiler

VoteToClose

@AlexA. See: Vitsy.

Zgarb

@AlexA. I feel the same.

Sparr

@TanMath that doesn't help when I don't know that what I'm looking for exists

Alex A.

@Zgarb But point-free syntax like J is also hard for me to wrap my head around, whereas you rock it. :)

TanMath

23:23

@Sparr but then there's @Dennis !

El'endia Starman

Stack-based languages are not that hard! (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

2

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@VoteToClose Do you need help with the stack?

TanMath

@VoteToClose what is so special about Vitsy?

VoteToClose

No. XD

TanMath

@AlexA. agree!

VoteToClose

23:23

@TanMath It's my child.

TanMath

@VoteToClose so?

Alex A.

So he had a baby

El'endia Starman

@VoteToClose If/when you have an actual, biological child...name it Vitsy. :P

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@TanMath ಠ_ಠ

Alex A.

Please don't

VoteToClose

23:24

@El'endiaStarman That's the plan. :D

Alex A.

That poor child...

El'endia Starman

...I was joking! o_o

VoteToClose

I wasn't. :D

Alex A.

I once saw a person whose actual name was Harry Butts.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@AlexA. >_<

VoteToClose

23:24

I have a friend named Ben Dover.

Alex A.

Ouch

VoteToClose

Harry Bo?

Anne Teak?

Toby Lerone?

Zgarb

@AlexA. They feel closer to mathematical notation and function composition...

VoteToClose

Mavus Bahr?

Martin Büttner

@AlexA. D: ... Alex has a Deathnote

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

23:25

I have a friend named John Smith

Legit

Alex A.

@MartinBüttner what

El'endia Starman

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Did/will he marry a woman named Jane Doe?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@El'endiaStarman XD

He's 12

El'endia Starman

Plenty of time!

VoteToClose

> Mohammed Lee

Alex A.

23:26

My favorite is this kid:

4

Such a baller name

El'endia Starman

Instant meme too.

VoteToClose

Yup.

Martin Büttner

@AlexA. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_Note ... At some point he sells his soul to that death spirit which gives him the power to see people's names floating above their heads

VoteToClose

spoilers

Martin Büttner

^

VoteToClose

23:29

You know what the worst thing about stack-based languages is? Making them object oriented. shudders

Alex A.

@MartinBüttner So you're saying now I can put Harry Butts to rest since I know his name and face?

Martin Büttner

If you actually have a death note, yes.

Alex A.

Sweet.

More unfortunate name ^

TanMath

0

A: Back to the chemistry class

Pyth, 69 bytes*0.9 = 62 bytes Js>z+xz"H"1;++++++"2"z%" + %d"-*J1.5 2"O2"%" > %d"J%"H2O + %d"-J2"CO2 It is just like xnor's answer, where I use the H values. A variable J is used to store the amount of H's in the molecular formula of the molecule.

My newest answer works!

now on to Seriously!

Alex A.

@Doorknob I'm so tempted to upvote your first Perl golf but I can't in good conscience upvote Perl...

4

TanMath

23:32

i gota go... bye!

Alex A.

Bye

The Perl hate is real in this room.

VoteToClose

Looks like we're not alone...

the chat goes quiet to admire the perl hate

Alex A.

> So you see, I hate perl. I hate software developers. I really wish you would all grow up and learn how to be the professionals we pay for.

Whoa

Shots fired

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

^

VoteToClose

^

My first reaction was O_O

DAMN SON.

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

23:37

*Dam son

GamrCorps

I have officially made the longest CJam program known to me: codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/64474/36670

VoteToClose

When you're only 50 from Java, you know you're having a bad golfing day.

GamrCorps

ikr

Alex A.

I've seen longer CJam

Martin Büttner

@GamrCorps you officially haven't

Alex A.

23:40

Dennis' CJam World Big Dosa is longer IIRC

GamrCorps

I stand corrected.

Martin Büttner

And those are big because strings...

GamrCorps

true...

Martin Büttner

Check Dennis's profile and click the link to his master piece.

Dennis

@GamrCorps This is the longest CJam program I've written, not counting any strings:

27

A: Rearranging Words

CJam, 58,598 58,494 57,898 57,772 57,704 57,680 moves This approach takes the family of all unordered sets of horizontal moves of minimum cardinality (with some false positives) and adds the minimum number (over all sets) of vertical moves required to avoid superpositions. If the resulting numb...

Martin Büttner

23:41

Ninja'd

Dennis

(ninja'd)

Alex A.

ninja'd

Martin Büttner

Hard

Dennis

And ninja'd again. :P

Martin Büttner

And I even had time to find the answer and check how big it was... on mobile! ;)

VoteToClose

23:42

If you want to make a long CJam answer, do this question:

13

Q: String to ASCII Art Text

The Task You are to write some ASCII Art Text as seen from this website for generating ASCII art! Rules Input will only be alphabetical text and spaces, and will be input as a single line. It is also case-insensitive. You needn't fix if the output text is longer than the terminal width. As lo...

GamrCorps

@MartinBüttner same

Dennis

@VoteToClose That's still on my to-do list.

GamrCorps

@VoteToClose I'm still working on the minecraft version.

VoteToClose

The current shortest is 1898. XD Beat it, @Dennis!

@GamrCorps Wait, really? :D

GamrCorps

@VoteToClose Yes. (I am cheating a little bit though, You cant concat strings in Minecraft)

Dennis

23:45

I had a nice idea, until I realized not all characters have the same width.

VoteToClose

Don't care if you're cheating - I'm bountying it if you do it. XD

Calvin's Hobbies

How do you like your golfing langauges?

2

phase

Can anyone test this out on mobile?

GamrCorps

@VoteToClose the hardest part is converting the big letters to JSON, it takes be a two or three minutes each. Other than that It is pretty trivial, I just have to get input working properly.

Dennis

Now, if we count deliberately long CJam programs:

2

A: The Bowlers-Golfers Fraction War

CJam, 7.2 × 102749 ",,,",',i',i#b:c~ The string actually contains 71,977,450,361,355,315,992,360,969,988,213,149,200,204,184,332,638,146,103,031,449,000,217,723,511,280,368,665,013,339,528,771,766,887,824,796,288,426,257,854,147,770,889,598,299,420,336,641,870,147,247,857,501,229,452,898,675,5...

VoteToClose

23:46

@GamrCorps Using named entities or via hard-coding?

I'd allow hard-coding.

GamrCorps

But thats not fun...

TheDoctor

@VoteToClose soundcloud.com/sssshawnnnn/hottodogu

GamrCorps

Named entities ftw

phase

@VoteToClose iOS or Android?

Dennis

@GamrCorps Saving " bottles of beer on the wall.

" in a variable should help a lot.

GamrCorps

23:48

@VoteToClose I should be done by tomorrow. But don't quote me on that.

El'endia Starman

@Calvin'sHobbies I'd vote for 2D and stack-based if I could...

GamrCorps

@Dennis thats a good idea. I'll try that later, I'm golfed out after that...

El'endia Starman

Okay guys. code-golf or code-challenge?

1

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Packing Circles graphical-output (code-golf or code-challenge) (Image source) Notice how the pipes in this image are packed in a hexagonal pattern. It is known that in 2D, this is the most efficient way to pack circles (in the sense that the circles occupy the greatest proportion of the avai...

VoteToClose

@phase Android - sorry, got distracted.

@TheDoctor ...why did you send me this?

@GamrCorps \o/ Worst bit is byte counting.

TheDoctor

@VoteToClose hot dogs :P

GamrCorps

23:51

@VoteToClose crap.... forgot I have to count the bytes.... add on 2 hours to my prediction....

@Calvin'sHobbies So theoretically if someone's favorite golfing language was Java, then would they be allowed to vote?

Zgarb

@Calvin'sHobbies I'd like them functional, like J.

Calvin's Hobbies

@GamrCorps sure

phase

What is a good vote count in the Sandbox?

Calvin's Hobbies

1

phase

Is 3 a "oh man I should post this"?

VoteToClose

23:55

Yes.

I normally post on -1. :D

Calvin's Hobbies

As I see it, people do sandbox votes based on how much the like the problem presented in the challenge, not how clear the challenge is.

Comments are the other way around.

El'endia Starman

Two of my sandbox challenges got to +8 (Calculate Phi (not Pi)) and +9 (Black and White Rainbows) before I got around to posting them. Three days for both, in fact.

phase

3

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Trump needs your help to stop the Starman! A man from the stars has come to Earth! Luckily the president of the United States, Donald Trump, has an infinity-sided die. Using this die, he can conjure up a number which you, the mayor of Podunk, must use to determine who should be sent to stop the ...

VoteToClose

1

A: Shortest ><> numbers

Vitsy, 30 28 Bytes (invalidated by new rules, here for reference) Method shamelessly given by DanTheMan's solution. Db/)[N;]Df1+/)['W'+O;]d3*D{Z Db/)[N;] If the number is less than 10, output its decimal representation and exit. Df1+/)['W'+O;] If the number i...

El'endia Starman

I have, I think, three challenges at +2.

VoteToClose

23:57

sigh New rules invalidated my answer.

Calvin's Hobbies

@El'endiaStarman But PhiNotPi and pretty pictures are popular topics. People can like them without reading every detail and upvote accordingly

Transcript for