The Nineteenth Byte

undergroundmonorail

13:05

8

Your challenge is to take input as a line of text and output it like this. Input / output The input will be a string that contains only printable ASCII characters. The first or last characters will never be spaces, and there will never be two spaces in a row. It will always be at least two ch...

code-golf

I was so excited when I saw this

but then I actually read the spec :(

trichoplax

What puts you off? The HSL conversion?

undergroundmonorail

When I read the title I thought I could do it in pb but I was wrong

Rainbolt

Haha. We have an old Necromanancer on the site helping people golf.

BrainSteel

@AlexA. Perhaps outputting a character 'n' in the range 127 <= n < 256 should output the (n - 126)th most common English word :)

Geobits

@trichoplax The only thing that put me off when I first read it was skipping spaces in the count. It not only seems unnecessary, but makes the transition "uneven" across the output.

trichoplax

13:18

It means no colour gets missed out...

I'm guessing it was more about adding a complication though

Geobits

I know, but it also means the transition isn't even.

trichoplax

Not good for users with CDO

Geobits

twitch

trichoplax

oops...

Geobits

Also, I'm pretty sure your autotroph-only world won't develop intelligence before it develops eating.

trichoplax

13:21

Oh, you saw that? I noticed it hit HNQ. I think it's very unlikely too but I wondered if someone could think of some bizarre situation that would allow it

Geobits

I didn't notice it was yours until I read this in the comments and checked the name:

@TafT as the OP, I can confirm that I meant what I said in the question body, despite any ambiguity that may be possible from only reading the much shorter question title :) I've tried to make it as precise as possible and put the key requirements in bold. — trichoplax 1 hour ago

trichoplax

I haven't asked a question on worldbuilding for ages, but I've spent 2 weeks asking 2 questions per day on computer graphics to try and get it kick started and my brain is diverging into random topics in rebellion

That was my attempt at keeping my sarcasm polite in the face of someone irritating. Not sure how it came across.

Geobits

Worldbuilding is an odd duck. I like it in general, but the scope seems really broad.

It came across exactly like that to me :)

trichoplax

The scope has definitely drifted broader than I'd like, but it seems healthy so maybe that's what's needed to keep enough people around to answer the really useful questions

Oh good - I didn't want to avoid being sarcastic as it seemed warranted, but I didn't want to be mean either.

Rainbolt

They should allow vote to close of entire sites. Privilege gained once you have close vote privileges on at least five other sites.

trichoplax

13:32

That would be hilarious

SO would go through a rapid open/close cycle for years

Rainbolt

Vote to close Worldbuilding as Too Broad. Vote to close PPCG as what the heck are you doing on Stack Exchange in the first place.

undergroundmonorail

Last time we went around closing other people's SE sites, they were all mad and april fool's day was ruined

5

trichoplax

Have people considered setting up a separate but related programming puzzles site (not on SE) for the questions that don't fit here?

Rainbolt

Not that I am aware. I think Puzzling accepts programming puzzles

On the other hand, despite our name, we treat programming puzzles like crap.

That puzzle was so simple that even I could do it. So I had fun, and I don't usually get to have fun.

I usually only get to have fun when I make a challenge

trichoplax

We definitely need both simple and challenging questions - even the geniuses here want a quick question sometimes, surely?

I like that we have language agnostic questions, but I don't see why it needs to be treated like a rule. Individual languages have interesting features too.

Optimizer

13:40

I think we were named wrong, as more than puzzles, this site is basically for challenges.

trichoplax

I'd like to post a series of KotHs in different languages.

Optimizer

our name does not even say that we mostly do programming challenges

Geobits

I have no problem changing the name. I was pondering semi-ranting about it on meta yesterday, but got busy.

Optimizer

I'd upvote that rant

Geobits

You haven't read it yet. You might not agree with it all ;)

Optimizer

13:42

imo, programming puzzles is not even a thing

Rainbolt

Well, I just linked to one

Optimizer

its also a challenge

Rainbolt

That is true. I have seen others that were "purer", though

Optimizer

there is nothing puzzling about it, we do not have to decrypt a message from the wordings etc. its a challenge to produce that exception in least code

Rainbolt

Like "Change one character in this code to make it do this instead". I swear I saw that somewhere.

trichoplax

13:43

Even a pure puzzle with no way of ordering correct answers (only one correct answer) is still possible with programming languages

Optimizer

if you can give an example, i can be swayed

@Rainbolt that might be borderline, but i feel like as soon as you put code to it, it looses the puzzle side of it and becomes more of a challenge.

Rainbolt

Well, maybe it is a puzzle, but in an attempt to squeeze itself into our standards, the author tacked on a win condition.

Geobits

The code crossword challenge would be a good example "puzzle", IMO.

Rainbolt

I just realized that a puzzle without a win condition is basically a pop contest...

trichoplax

Without a condition for ordering the correct answers? Or without a correctness condition at all?

Rainbolt

13:46

I'm not discussing correctness conditions at all

If you don't meet spec, you can't win. That's a separate issue.

Geobits

@Rainbolt For puzzles without win conditions, visit Puzzling. Riddles are often "won" by guessing what the OP had in mind, not by votes or the answer that makes most sense.

Optimizer

@Geobits i am swayed, these are puzzles and we have a lot of them.

all those answer-chaining ones

Rainbolt

Is that cops and robbers?

Geobits

Yea

Optimizer

cops and robbers too. but things like Evolution of Hello World

Rainbolt

13:49

And that one where you had 5 less characters each iteration

Optimizer

yeah

Geobits

Yea, nothing but a puzzle would make me use lisp.

Optimizer

so I think cops-and-robbers and answer-chaining are pure puzzle categories more or less.

Geobits

I don't even care much if the name keeps "Puzzles" or changes to "Challenges" or something else. I disagree with the "and Code Golf" part.

Rainbolt

Agree. I think we should change our name to Programming Challenges and Puzzles, and not call out Code Golf.

Optimizer

13:51

@Geobits well, that's true, but all our branding is based on code golf :D :(

@Rainbolt Programming Puzzles and Challenges

Geobits

Redirects and time can fix that. As a beta site, it's not like we have much branding anyway.

Optimizer

PPC instead of PCP

the worst thing is our sub domain name...

codegolf

Geobits

I'm almost positive B&CG was founded to ask M:TG questions, but they don't call it Board and Card Games and Magic: The Gathering.

Rainbolt

I'm pretty sure it was founded for Chess questions and then Chess split off

Leaving only MTG behind

Optimizer

do we have a consensus ?

(to create a meta to get a consensus)

Geobits

13:53

@Optimizer The subdomain isn't that bad an issue to me. Arqade is gaming.se, not arqade.se.

Optimizer

@Geobits then that is wrong too :P

Geobits

(It should be Arqade and Minecraft probably ;)

Rainbolt

What would our new subdomain be?

Geobits

That's a good question, and one reason I haven't made my rant :)

trichoplax

Can't you ask MTG questions on bitcoin?

Optimizer

13:55

code.se.com?

Rainbolt

challenge.stackexchange.com?

Optimizer

ppc.se.com?

Geobits

pcp.se

Rainbolt

Ah, we have two votes for PCP

Optimizer

ppc sounds more familiar

Rainbolt

13:55

I am winning

Optimizer

(ppcg)

Geobits

PCP sounds more fun, though :P

Optimizer

no

Rainbolt

Okay fine. CPP.

Optimizer

.CPP

^ C++ file extension

Geobits

13:56

Challenges Regarding Absurd Programs

trichoplax

Is there anything that isn't covered by Programming Challenges?

Optimizer

puzzles

Geobits

IMO puzzles are challenges, too.

trichoplax

"Programming Challenges and Off Topic Chat"

Geobits

^ Rejected for not having an interesting acronym.

trichoplax

13:58

I did worry for a second realising I hadn't checked the acronym before posting

But it's nothing offensive so we're ok

Optimizer

I think that we can differentiate challenges from puzzles in a way that in a challenge, the code submission solves the challenge. But in a puzzle, you create the code submission based on the puzzle's rules. The code for a puzzle submission most probably does not solve what is described in the puzzle as there is most likely nothing to be solved.

^ Very vague, I know.

trichoplax

Talking of Off Topic, I'm releasing an old sandbox post for spare parts for anyone who wants it

Geobits

Ooooh, junkyard scrounging :D

Rainbolt

So keep puzzles in the name? Or no?

trichoplax

Puzzles

No puzzles

Geobits

14:01

I've been trying to come up with something better than "challenges" to describe them all, but it's hard.

trichoplax

It's only hard because challenges is so good

Vioz-

So I'm learning Stuck needs quite a bit of work :P

trichoplax

Competitions sounds less substantial somehow

Optimizer

we first have to agree that puzzles and challenges are fundamentally different for our site.

Geobits

^ Do not agree

I think puzzles are a subset

trichoplax

14:02

I think puzzles are a subset

Woah. Even the same wording

Optimizer

Challenges should cover puzzles

Puzzles are separate

^ Star it or didn't happen.

Rainbolt

Wait, I have an idea

Geobits

@trichoplax I knew this day would come. Chat is converging. Prepare for the singularity.

Rainbolt

One meta post, multiple answers, let folks vote

Optimizer

@trichoplax I knew this day would come. Chat is converging. Prepare for the singularity.

@Rainbolt go ahead

trichoplax

14:03

This is weird. Have any of you read Blood Music??

Optimizer

what is weird?

trichoplax

The convergence

Geobits

FYI We kinda did this last year, with no change ever made: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/1147/14215

trichoplax

@Geobits Ah - contest - there's a good word (from that post)

Rainbolt

Crap I can only post one answer per two minutes or something

trichoplax

14:08

@Geobits Has your opinion on removing golf from the name changed since then?

Rainbolt

hold your votes until I get the first few in. Or help me post. I'm in the middle of posting "contests"

Now I'm posting "Challenges" by itself

Geobits

@trichoplax No. I still say it should be removed (but for additional reasons as well).

trichoplax

@Geobits Then maybe a new post is a good thing to reset the votes and see the current community's views

(I'd also like to see golf dropped from the title, despite welcoming golf questions)

Rainbolt

I'm on the last one. "Programming Challenges"

Any other suggestions?

Geobits

I say we call it Programming Puzzles and King of the Hill :P

Rainbolt

14:12

Okay, I'm done. I say that if nobody speaks up in the next 30 seconds, that we unleash the votes

Someone started voting anyway lol

Geobits

That would be me :D

Rainbolt

I say go ahead

trichoplax

Does "Challenges" fit better than "Contests" for questions with no winner?

Geobits

I think it fits marginally better, but would be happy with either.

trichoplax

I like contests, but will it lead to rejection of winnerless questions?

Rainbolt

14:15

I would not consider this a scope change.

Only a name change

trichoplax

I think I'd like either, just trying to think of any reason to choose between them

Geobits

stackoverflow has a very narrow scope. Only questions about overflowing stacks are allowed :P

trichoplax

:)

Rainbolt

When one of the answers rises to the top, I'm going to replace the question with "Should we destroy tips?" and replace the most upvoted answer with "#Yes. Tips are evil."

Geobits

#hashtag

trichoplax

14:17

Do we need a warning in the question about serial voting? I've just upvoted 2 and downvoted 2, and upvoted the question, and they're all from Rainbolt

Not sure if that will trigger reversal later or not

Geobits

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Damn meta polls.

Rainbolt

Five votes shouldn't trigger serial voting, and seeing as I haven't posted anything in a while, I doubt you have voted on anything else of mine.

trichoplax

I'll check tomorrow just to be sure

Geobits

I think I read you can avoid the script if it's CW, but can't confirm.

Rainbolt

Oh crap. I did mention puzzles with no winning criterion in the question

I meant to delete that

New Meta Posts

14:19

2

Q: Change our name

This site may have been built primarily on code-golf challenges and puzzles that have no winning criteria, but we have evolved away from that. Our name is outdated, and we should rebrand ourselves. Because the folks in the chat cannot seem to agree on a name, I'm going to post multiple answers a...

discussion

2

trichoplax

I raised a few polling questions on Computer Graphics last week and Robert Cartaino pointed out that polling questions are to be avoided in favour of open discussion. I'm not sure how else we'd do it for a name change though

Should we tag it feature-request?

Rainbolt

Well we just took Robert Cartaino's suggestion, and then it inevitably led to "Okay, we've all said our piece. Now let's vote."

The feature request would be "Let's change our name to [insert whatever is the highest voted answer in a few weeks]."?

Okay, I edited the title to "Should we change our name?" to make it clearer that this one isn't really a feature request.

trichoplax

@Rainbolt I guess so. Or should that be posted as a separate question once we reach consenus?

Rainbolt

I like that option better

trichoplax

Great

Rainbolt

14:24

Actually, that would be best if we want it to be changed

Because right now, people who prefer one option are downvoting the others (maybe)

But once we settle on one and raise it as a feature request, those who would have downvoted in the polling question may say decide to support the lesser evil

Dennis

@MartinBüttner This one.

trichoplax

I guess then we'd only have downvotes from people who want no change, which should give us a better idea of how many people oppose it

Beta Decay

14:42

Personally, I don't really like any of the suggestions. Programming Puzzles and Code Golf has a nice sound to it which Programming Challenges doesn't.

If anything, why does it have to be so descriptive? Like how the Apple site is Ask Different

Geobits

^ That I could get behind. I think the current name is both long and redundant.

If you have any suggestions, put them out there :D

Dennis

Ask Different would be a much better name for our site than for theirs IMHO.

@BetaDecay Thanks for the rep. :)

Geobits

Happy Fun Code Time

Beta Decay

@Dennis No problem, you deserved it :)

What about something like SO.tar.gz?

Or is that too non descriptive?

Geobits

so.tar.gz.se.com? Wow.

Beta Decay

14:51

Sounds dodgy :P

Geobits

Besides, we don't really have anything SO-specific to put that in the title.

Martin Büttner

@Dennis so is it a specific jQuery version?

Dennis

@MartinBüttner Yup. Not sure jQuery is a language though.

The cop tried to mess with me because I answered two JavaScript challenges with CoffeeScript, so he wrote something that required jQuery and wouldn't work with the version SE uses (so it'd fail in the console).

Beta Decay

15:16

I know, the PCG Cup/Championship

It's a play on PCG (as in PPCG) and the PGA cup/championship

Optimizer

@MartinBüttner can you feature that name meta post ?

Peter Taylor

@Doorknob Also there's the issue of editors. At the point that you can't write the language directly but have to compile something else into it, there's a good argument that it should be the other language you compile into it which is the source and which should be scored.

Beta Decay

@Rainbolt Am I allowed to add my own suggestion your name question, or did you intend it to be just your own answers?

Rainbolt

Please, add your own

Beta Decay

Brilliant :D

Rainbolt

15:26

You could even deviate from the template if you want. If you want to write five paragraphs about why your answer is correct, I think you should

Optimizer

or 10

Rainbolt

Yes, those are your two options. 5 or 10.

Geobits

If ten, please break into three equal sections for readability.

Optimizer

or 7 equal sections for power reading

Geobits

Right, so 5, or 10 with 3 or 7.

Optimizer

15:31

Also, for ten, please do not forget to add TL;DR in comments.

Rainbolt

Eleven paragraphs thou shalt not write, neither write thou nine, excepting that thou then proceed to ten.

5

Geobits

So mote it be.

Optimizer

From all the above clauses, I think 10 is the best choice.

Beta Decay

I'm really scraping the barrel trying to write five paragraphs, never mind 10 :P

Geobits

Ten is superior, with three being the superior subchoice. TL;DR is good, but a witty remark in comments is the other (better IMO) option.

user4067565

15:35

TL;DR in answer and witty remark in comments with a possible reference to said TL;DR might be the way to go.

Optimizer

so the tenth paragraph is TL;DR

Beta Decay

But nine is then too short for a TL;DR

user4067565

Your answer reminds me of writing essays (of a required length) in grade school.

Beta Decay

Haha yeah. I feel I just added padding to an answer which was alright as it was...

aditsu

1, 2, 10

@Rainbolt twelve is right out!

Rainbolt

15:51

I thought that would happen almost immediately

aditsu

sorry I was busy fighting the rabbit

@MartinBüttner it would be nice if I could sort the vulnerable cops by size

Geobits

16:07

My favorite example of the problems with keeping Code Golf in the name is this pair of comments from the same user, on the same post, within an hour of each other:

Please make your code more readable, this is not code golf. Thank you. — duci9y Mar 4 '14 at 7:38

Yes it is. Thank you. Welcome to Code Golf. I'm new too. :) — duci9y Mar 4 '14 at 8:29

aditsu

ohforf'ssake! isn't it enough that a language is esoteric? why does its implementation have to be written in a super-WTF language?!

Beta Decay

@Geobits Mm I see. That does seem rather confusing :P

I have a feeling that the Nineteenth Byte would be a great name for PPCG

Geobits

I like that a lot better than PCG Cup at least :D

Still not sure if I'd vote it up or not though.

Optimizer

U'd upvote something ????

Geobits

Of course. Just not you :P

Optimizer

16:17

I am not a thing

Geobits

Llamas are things.

Optimizer

down buttons are things

Geobits

I never said I wasn't a thing.

Optimizer

I am saying I am not.

Beta Decay

You two are made for each other ;)

Geobits

16:19

> thing (noun): 1) an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to

I can call anything a thing.

Beta Decay

Geobits riding Optimizer:

3

Geobits

I'm Vladimir? Woooooow, harsh.

Optimizer

I am Nyan ~~Cat~~ Llama ?

Beta Decay

He's the only thing that came to mind when I thought about 'someone riding a llama'

Geobits

As much as I like the idea of riding a magical llama through space (assuming life support isn't an issue), I cannot in good conscience star that.

Optimizer

16:25

down star it

Geobits

I wish :(

Martin Büttner

@Dennis I don't think so. It's a non-standard library for a language.

Geobits

I disagree, but if this were chat I wouldn't be able to disagree, would I? I demand equal rights for the cantankerous! — Adam Davis Jun 27 '11 at 16:29

Optimizer

someone is calling jquery a language?

What next? React? Angular?

user4067565

jQuery is all I write in, hater.

Martin Büttner

16:29

If you code your hello world program in JS, and some one answered coffee script, technically that would compile and run, but so would angular and jQuery and so forth. Would coffee script and those other JS languages be a correct answer? — Grant Davis yesterday

Optimizer

haha

Bootstrap-Slider is a language too

so is JQuery UI

@MartinBüttner I don't think so that in built JS features are called standard libraries.. :P

Martin Büttner

I didn't say they were?

Optimizer

so there is nothing called "non-standard" library

wow 20 gold badges

Martin Büttner

it's not part of the standard. it's non-standard. I'll just say "3rd-party" next time.

Optimizer

Calvin is slacking.

Rainbolt

16:36

He's playing Minecraft. Give him a break

Martin Büttner

damn...

Rainbolt

It's nice outside

Optimizer

-_-

Calvin's Hobbies

@Optimizer I'm not slacking, I'm goldsore

Optimizer

or maybe goldslump?

Martin Büttner

16:39

regarding the name discussion: I'd rather have a catchy title than a descriptive title, as long as it's not actively misleading. like Arqade or Ask Different. I'd rather have people thinking "Oh what's that?" rather than "Ah, I can totally ask this question here." ... I'm not sure beta sites get catchy titles though...

Optimizer

^ Agreed.

but I still do not agree with our current title

Rainbolt

thesaurus.com/browse/challenge

Well that was a bad one

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner "Cramming the Gramming"

Rainbolt

The list for contest is better

Programming Warfare

Optimizer

Programming Evolution

Geobits

16:42

Code Sport :P

Rainbolt

I like code sport actually

Calvin's Hobbies

Procrastigramming

Optimizer

I like it even more with a :P

Rainbolt

@Geobits If you post that I will upvote

Martin Büttner

so... uh... something else... since I don't really frequent any other golfing/programming challenge sites, I actually have no clue what's out there and how we compare to them. would anyone be interested in helping me compile a list of the relevant communities, what sets them apart and how big they are?

Optimizer

16:42

:Programming Sport

Martin Büttner

@Sp3000 see my last message. I think you've used some of the other sites?

Rainbolt

I just earned Mortarboard on meta?

How is that even possible

There is no rep on meta

Martin Büttner

@Rainbolt the badge text is misleading

but you would have gotten 200 rep today if upvotes gave rep.

Optimizer

maybe you earned motorboat ?

Martin Büttner

27

A: Should I really have been awarded mortarboard on a Per-site meta?

Just redefine it as "you received a lot of upvotes in a single day". So I think it is correct in spirit.

@Optimizer ha, that was actually my first idea when I saw the meta post :D

Optimizer

16:45

with a :P?

Martin Büttner

one could also consider Competitive Programming or Recreational Programming

@Optimizer no without, but it wasn't "Code Sport", so I couldn't honestly ping Geobits :P

Geobits

Recreational might give the wrong impression, but it's not terrible.

Optimizer

:D

Alex A.

@Calvin'sHobbies hahaha wth

Rainbolt

I like competitive programming, but CodeSport also is useful as a subdomain name

codesport.stackexchange.com

3

Calvin's Hobbies

16:46

@AlexA. It's apt for code golf I'd say

ETHproductions

I like Competitive Programming, it fits what we do pretty well

user4067565

I can get behind that.

Rainbolt

And sport also preserves (kind of) the golf aspect

Optimizer

but we dont host competitions as such..

Martin Büttner

@Geobits make an answer for Code Sport, and I'll make one for Competitive Programming?

Alex A.

16:47

@Calvin'sHobbies Yes, but it sounds so strange.

gramcramming.stackexchange.com

3

ETHproductions

@AlexA. LOL

Geobits

@MartinBüttner I think I might like Rainbolt's idea a bit better. Competitive programming sounds nice, but codesport is a good subdomain.

I do like Code Sport, though :D

Rainbolt

I thought you were the originator of that idea

I just backed it lol

ETHproductions

nochange.stackexchange.com

That is the best subdomain name ever

Rainbolt

I smell pizza

Oh right... today is lunch and learn

Usually it's on Thursday but this week they moved it

Alex A.

16:52

@trichoplax I have. You and I talked about it once. It requires all sorts of skills I don't have though. :P

Dennis

@MartinBüttner So, does that mean that the cop answer is invalid?

Martin Büttner

@Dennis if it requires jQuery and doesn't embed it, yes.

Alex A.

@MartinBüttner But jQuery is best query.

Martin Büttner

@Geobits so where do I vote on it :P

Geobits

Hold on a minute :P

Alex A.

16:54

holdonaminute.stackexchange.com

@BetaDecay I laughed so hard at this that I almost choked on my cereal.

ETHproductions

needsabettername.stackexchange.com

Alex A.

geobits.stackexchange.com

generalprogrammingquestionsareofftopicforthosetrystackoverflow.stackexchange.com

ETHproductions

whateverPPCGstandsfor.stackexchange.com

Optimizer

misleadingtitle.stackeschange.com

Dennis

@MartinBüttner OK, I've left a comment on the answer. There are two more answers by the same cop that may require your attention: 1. This one seems to use an unimplemented language. 2. This one was edited after I cracked it to make it work in the language he intended. Since I found a working language for the original revision, that seems to be an unnecessary violation of the rules.

ETHproductions

16:58

thisisnot.stackoverflow.com

Optimizer

@ETHproductions impossible

ETHproductions

idc.stackexchange.com

Transcript for