The Nineteenth Byte

What puts you off? The HSL conversion?

undergroundmonorail

When I read the title I thought I could do it in pb but I was wrong

Haha. We have an old Necromanancer on the site helping people golf.

BrainSteel

@AlexA. Perhaps outputting a character 'n' in the range 127 <= n < 256 should output the (n - 126)th most common English word :)

@trichoplax The only thing that put me off when I first read it was skipping spaces in the count. It not only seems unnecessary, but makes the transition "uneven" across the output.

1:18 PM

It means no colour gets missed out...

I'm guessing it was more about adding a complication though

I know, but it also means the transition isn't even.

Not good for users with CDO

twitch

oops...

Also, I'm pretty sure your autotroph-only world won't develop intelligence before it develops eating.

1:21 PM

Oh, you saw that? I noticed it hit HNQ. I think it's very unlikely too but I wondered if someone could think of some bizarre situation that would allow it

I didn't notice it was yours until I read this in the comments and checked the name:

@TafT as the OP, I can confirm that I meant what I said in the question body, despite any ambiguity that may be possible from only reading the much shorter question title :) I've tried to make it as precise as possible and put the key requirements in bold. — trichoplax 1 hour ago

I haven't asked a question on worldbuilding for ages, but I've spent 2 weeks asking 2 questions per day on computer graphics to try and get it kick started and my brain is diverging into random topics in rebellion

That was my attempt at keeping my sarcasm polite in the face of someone irritating. Not sure how it came across.

Worldbuilding is an odd duck. I like it in general, but the scope seems really broad.

It came across exactly like that to me :)

The scope has definitely drifted broader than I'd like, but it seems healthy so maybe that's what's needed to keep enough people around to answer the really useful questions

Oh good - I didn't want to avoid being sarcastic as it seemed warranted, but I didn't want to be mean either.

They should allow vote to close of entire sites. Privilege gained once you have close vote privileges on at least five other sites.

1:32 PM

That would be hilarious

SO would go through a rapid open/close cycle for years

Vote to close Worldbuilding as Too Broad. Vote to close PPCG as what the heck are you doing on Stack Exchange in the first place.

undergroundmonorail

Last time we went around closing other people's SE sites, they were all mad and april fool's day was ruined

5

Have people considered setting up a separate but related programming puzzles site (not on SE) for the questions that don't fit here?

Not that I am aware. I think Puzzling accepts programming puzzles

On the other hand, despite our name, we treat programming puzzles like crap.

That puzzle was so simple that even I could do it. So I had fun, and I don't usually get to have fun.

I usually only get to have fun when I make a challenge

We definitely need both simple and challenging questions - even the geniuses here want a quick question sometimes, surely?

I like that we have language agnostic questions, but I don't see why it needs to be treated like a rule. Individual languages have interesting features too.

1:40 PM

I think we were named wrong, as more than puzzles, this site is basically for challenges.

I'd like to post a series of KotHs in different languages.

our name does not even say that we mostly do programming challenges

I have no problem changing the name. I was pondering semi-ranting about it on meta yesterday, but got busy.

I'd upvote that rant

You haven't read it yet. You might not agree with it all ;)

1:42 PM

imo, programming puzzles is not even a thing

Well, I just linked to one

its also a challenge

That is true. I have seen others that were "purer", though

there is nothing puzzling about it, we do not have to decrypt a message from the wordings etc. its a challenge to produce that exception in least code

Like "Change one character in this code to make it do this instead". I swear I saw that somewhere.

1:43 PM

Even a pure puzzle with no way of ordering correct answers (only one correct answer) is still possible with programming languages

if you can give an example, i can be swayed

@Rainbolt that might be borderline, but i feel like as soon as you put code to it, it looses the puzzle side of it and becomes more of a challenge.

Well, maybe it is a puzzle, but in an attempt to squeeze itself into our standards, the author tacked on a win condition.

The code crossword challenge would be a good example "puzzle", IMO.

I just realized that a puzzle without a win condition is basically a pop contest...

Without a condition for ordering the correct answers? Or without a correctness condition at all?

1:46 PM

I'm not discussing correctness conditions at all

If you don't meet spec, you can't win. That's a separate issue.

@Rainbolt For puzzles without win conditions, visit Puzzling. Riddles are often "won" by guessing what the OP had in mind, not by votes or the answer that makes most sense.

@Geobits i am swayed, these are puzzles and we have a lot of them.

all those answer-chaining ones

Is that cops and robbers?

Yea

cops and robbers too. but things like Evolution of Hello World

1:49 PM

And that one where you had 5 less characters each iteration

yeah

Yea, nothing but a puzzle would make me use lisp.

so I think cops-and-robbers and answer-chaining are pure puzzle categories more or less.

I don't even care much if the name keeps "Puzzles" or changes to "Challenges" or something else. I disagree with the "and Code Golf" part.

Agree. I think we should change our name to Programming Challenges and Puzzles, and not call out Code Golf.

1:51 PM

@Geobits well, that's true, but all our branding is based on code golf :D :(

@Rainbolt Programming Puzzles and Challenges

Redirects and time can fix that. As a beta site, it's not like we have much branding anyway.

PPC instead of PCP

the worst thing is our sub domain name...

codegolf

I'm almost positive B&CG was founded to ask M:TG questions, but they don't call it Board and Card Games and Magic: The Gathering.

I'm pretty sure it was founded for Chess questions and then Chess split off

Leaving only MTG behind

do we have a consensus ?

(to create a meta to get a consensus)

1:53 PM

@Optimizer The subdomain isn't that bad an issue to me. Arqade is gaming.se, not arqade.se.

@Geobits then that is wrong too :P

(It should be Arqade and Minecraft probably ;)

What would our new subdomain be?

That's a good question, and one reason I haven't made my rant :)

Can't you ask MTG questions on bitcoin?

1:55 PM

code.se.com?

challenge.stackexchange.com?

ppc.se.com?

pcp.se

Ah, we have two votes for PCP

ppc sounds more familiar

1:55 PM

I am winning

(ppcg)

PCP sounds more fun, though :P

no

Okay fine. CPP.

.CPP

^ C++ file extension

1:56 PM

Challenges Regarding Absurd Programs

Is there anything that isn't covered by Programming Challenges?

puzzles

IMO puzzles are challenges, too.

"Programming Challenges and Off Topic Chat"

^ Rejected for not having an interesting acronym.

1:58 PM

I did worry for a second realising I hadn't checked the acronym before posting

But it's nothing offensive so we're ok

I think that we can differentiate challenges from puzzles in a way that in a challenge, the code submission solves the challenge. But in a puzzle, you create the code submission based on the puzzle's rules. The code for a puzzle submission most probably does not solve what is described in the puzzle as there is most likely nothing to be solved.

^ Very vague, I know.

Talking of Off Topic, I'm releasing an old sandbox post for spare parts for anyone who wants it

Ooooh, junkyard scrounging :D

So keep puzzles in the name? Or no?

Puzzles

No puzzles

2:01 PM

I've been trying to come up with something better than "challenges" to describe them all, but it's hard.

It's only hard because challenges is so good

Vioz-

So I'm learning Stuck needs quite a bit of work :P

Competitions sounds less substantial somehow

we first have to agree that puzzles and challenges are fundamentally different for our site.

^ Do not agree

I think puzzles are a subset

2:02 PM

I think puzzles are a subset

Woah. Even the same wording

Challenges should cover puzzles

Puzzles are separate

^ Star it or didn't happen.

Wait, I have an idea

@trichoplax I knew this day would come. Chat is converging. Prepare for the singularity.

One meta post, multiple answers, let folks vote

@trichoplax I knew this day would come. Chat is converging. Prepare for the singularity.

@Rainbolt go ahead

2:03 PM

This is weird. Have any of you read Blood Music??

what is weird?

The convergence

FYI We kinda did this last year, with no change ever made: meta.codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/1147/14215

@Geobits Ah - contest - there's a good word (from that post)

Crap I can only post one answer per two minutes or something

2:08 PM

@Geobits Has your opinion on removing golf from the name changed since then?

hold your votes until I get the first few in. Or help me post. I'm in the middle of posting "contests"

Now I'm posting "Challenges" by itself

@trichoplax No. I still say it should be removed (but for additional reasons as well).

@Geobits Then maybe a new post is a good thing to reset the votes and see the current community's views

(I'd also like to see golf dropped from the title, despite welcoming golf questions)

I'm on the last one. "Programming Challenges"

Any other suggestions?

I say we call it Programming Puzzles and King of the Hill :P

2:12 PM

Okay, I'm done. I say that if nobody speaks up in the next 30 seconds, that we unleash the votes

Someone started voting anyway lol

That would be me :D

I say go ahead

Does "Challenges" fit better than "Contests" for questions with no winner?

I think it fits marginally better, but would be happy with either.

I like contests, but will it lead to rejection of winnerless questions?

2:15 PM

I would not consider this a scope change.

Only a name change

I think I'd like either, just trying to think of any reason to choose between them

stackoverflow has a very narrow scope. Only questions about overflowing stacks are allowed :P

:)

When one of the answers rises to the top, I'm going to replace the question with "Should we destroy tips?" and replace the most upvoted answer with "#Yes. Tips are evil."

#hashtag

2:17 PM

Do we need a warning in the question about serial voting? I've just upvoted 2 and downvoted 2, and upvoted the question, and they're all from Rainbolt

Not sure if that will trigger reversal later or not

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Damn meta polls.

Five votes shouldn't trigger serial voting, and seeing as I haven't posted anything in a while, I doubt you have voted on anything else of mine.

I'll check tomorrow just to be sure

I think I read you can avoid the script if it's CW, but can't confirm.

Oh crap. I did mention puzzles with no winning criterion in the question

I meant to delete that

New Meta Posts

2:19 PM

2

Q: Change our name

This site may have been built primarily on code-golf challenges and puzzles that have no winning criteria, but we have evolved away from that. Our name is outdated, and we should rebrand ourselves. Because the folks in the chat cannot seem to agree on a name, I'm going to post multiple answers a...

discussion

2

I raised a few polling questions on Computer Graphics last week and Robert Cartaino pointed out that polling questions are to be avoided in favour of open discussion. I'm not sure how else we'd do it for a name change though

Should we tag it feature-request?

Well we just took Robert Cartaino's suggestion, and then it inevitably led to "Okay, we've all said our piece. Now let's vote."

The feature request would be "Let's change our name to [insert whatever is the highest voted answer in a few weeks]."?

Okay, I edited the title to "Should we change our name?" to make it clearer that this one isn't really a feature request.

@Rainbolt I guess so. Or should that be posted as a separate question once we reach consenus?

I like that option better

Great

2:24 PM

Actually, that would be best if we want it to be changed

Because right now, people who prefer one option are downvoting the others (maybe)

But once we settle on one and raise it as a feature request, those who would have downvoted in the polling question may say decide to support the lesser evil

@MartinBüttner This one.

I guess then we'd only have downvotes from people who want no change, which should give us a better idea of how many people oppose it

2:42 PM

Personally, I don't really like any of the suggestions. Programming Puzzles and Code Golf has a nice sound to it which Programming Challenges doesn't.

If anything, why does it have to be so descriptive? Like how the Apple site is Ask Different

^ That I could get behind. I think the current name is both long and redundant.

If you have any suggestions, put them out there :D

Ask Different would be a much better name for our site than for theirs IMHO.

@BetaDecay Thanks for the rep. :)

Happy Fun Code Time

@Dennis No problem, you deserved it :)

What about something like SO.tar.gz?

Or is that too non descriptive?

so.tar.gz.se.com? Wow.

2:51 PM

Sounds dodgy :P

Besides, we don't really have anything SO-specific to put that in the title.

@Dennis so is it a specific jQuery version?

@MartinBüttner Yup. Not sure jQuery is a language though.

The cop tried to mess with me because I answered two JavaScript challenges with CoffeeScript, so he wrote something that required jQuery and wouldn't work with the version SE uses (so it'd fail in the console).

3:16 PM

I know, the PCG Cup/Championship

It's a play on PCG (as in PPCG) and the PGA cup/championship

@MartinBüttner can you feature that name meta post ?

Peter Taylor

@Doorknob Also there's the issue of editors. At the point that you can't write the language directly but have to compile something else into it, there's a good argument that it should be the other language you compile into it which is the source and which should be scored.

@Rainbolt Am I allowed to add my own suggestion your name question, or did you intend it to be just your own answers?

Please, add your own

Brilliant :D

3:26 PM

You could even deviate from the template if you want. If you want to write five paragraphs about why your answer is correct, I think you should

or 10

Yes, those are your two options. 5 or 10.

If ten, please break into three equal sections for readability.

or 7 equal sections for power reading

Right, so 5, or 10 with 3 or 7.

3:31 PM

Also, for ten, please do not forget to add TL;DR in comments.

Eleven paragraphs thou shalt not write, neither write thou nine, excepting that thou then proceed to ten.

5

So mote it be.

From all the above clauses, I think 10 is the best choice.

I'm really scraping the barrel trying to write five paragraphs, never mind 10 :P

Ten is superior, with three being the superior subchoice. TL;DR is good, but a witty remark in comments is the other (better IMO) option.

3:35 PM

TL;DR in answer and witty remark in comments with a possible reference to said TL;DR might be the way to go.

so the tenth paragraph is TL;DR

But nine is then too short for a TL;DR

Your answer reminds me of writing essays (of a required length) in grade school.

Haha yeah. I feel I just added padding to an answer which was alright as it was...

aditsu

1, 2, 10

@Rainbolt twelve is right out!

3:51 PM

I thought that would happen almost immediately

aditsu

sorry I was busy fighting the rabbit

@MartinBüttner it would be nice if I could sort the vulnerable cops by size

4:07 PM

My favorite example of the problems with keeping Code Golf in the name is this pair of comments from the same user, on the same post, within an hour of each other:

Please make your code more readable, this is not code golf. Thank you. — duci9y Mar 4 '14 at 7:38

Yes it is. Thank you. Welcome to Code Golf. I'm new too. :) — duci9y Mar 4 '14 at 8:29

aditsu

ohforf'ssake! isn't it enough that a language is esoteric? why does its implementation have to be written in a super-WTF language?!

@Geobits Mm I see. That does seem rather confusing :P

I have a feeling that the Nineteenth Byte would be a great name for PPCG

I like that a lot better than PCG Cup at least :D

Still not sure if I'd vote it up or not though.

U'd upvote something ????

Of course. Just not you :P

4:17 PM

I am not a thing

Llamas are things.

down buttons are things

I never said I wasn't a thing.

I am saying I am not.

You two are made for each other ;)

4:19 PM

> thing (noun): 1) an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to

I can call anything a thing.

Geobits riding Optimizer:

3

I'm Vladimir? Woooooow, harsh.

I am Nyan ~~Cat~~ Llama ?

He's the only thing that came to mind when I thought about 'someone riding a llama'

As much as I like the idea of riding a magical llama through space (assuming life support isn't an issue), I cannot in good conscience star that.

4:25 PM

down star it

I wish :(

@Dennis I don't think so. It's a non-standard library for a language.

I disagree, but if this were chat I wouldn't be able to disagree, would I? I demand equal rights for the cantankerous! — Adam Davis Jun 27 '11 at 16:29

someone is calling jquery a language?

What next? React? Angular?

jQuery is all I write in, hater.

4:29 PM

If you code your hello world program in JS, and some one answered coffee script, technically that would compile and run, but so would angular and jQuery and so forth. Would coffee script and those other JS languages be a correct answer? — Grant Davis yesterday

haha

Bootstrap-Slider is a language too

so is JQuery UI

@MartinBüttner I don't think so that in built JS features are called standard libraries.. :P

I didn't say they were?

so there is nothing called "non-standard" library

wow 20 gold badges

it's not part of the standard. it's non-standard. I'll just say "3rd-party" next time.

Calvin is slacking.

4:36 PM

He's playing Minecraft. Give him a break

damn...

It's nice outside

-_-

@Optimizer I'm not slacking, I'm goldsore

or maybe goldslump?

4:39 PM

regarding the name discussion: I'd rather have a catchy title than a descriptive title, as long as it's not actively misleading. like Arqade or Ask Different. I'd rather have people thinking "Oh what's that?" rather than "Ah, I can totally ask this question here." ... I'm not sure beta sites get catchy titles though...

^ Agreed.

but I still do not agree with our current title

thesaurus.com/browse/challenge

Well that was a bad one

Calvin's Hobbies

@MartinBüttner "Cramming the Gramming"

The list for contest is better

Programming Warfare

Programming Evolution

4:42 PM

Code Sport :P

I like code sport actually

Calvin's Hobbies

Procrastigramming

I like it even more with a :P

@Geobits If you post that I will upvote

so... uh... something else... since I don't really frequent any other golfing/programming challenge sites, I actually have no clue what's out there and how we compare to them. would anyone be interested in helping me compile a list of the relevant communities, what sets them apart and how big they are?

4:42 PM

:Programming Sport

@Sp3000 see my last message. I think you've used some of the other sites?

I just earned Mortarboard on meta?

How is that even possible

There is no rep on meta

@Rainbolt the badge text is misleading

but you would have gotten 200 rep today if upvotes gave rep.

maybe you earned motorboat ?

A: Should I really have been awarded mortarboard on a Per-site meta?

27

Just redefine it as "you received a lot of upvotes in a single day". So I think it is correct in spirit.

@Optimizer ha, that was actually my first idea when I saw the meta post :D

4:45 PM

with a :P?

one could also consider Competitive Programming or Recreational Programming

@Optimizer no without, but it wasn't "Code Sport", so I couldn't honestly ping Geobits :P

Recreational might give the wrong impression, but it's not terrible.

:D

@Calvin'sHobbies hahaha wth

I like competitive programming, but CodeSport also is useful as a subdomain name

codesport.stackexchange.com

3

Calvin's Hobbies

4:46 PM

@AlexA. It's apt for code golf I'd say

I like Competitive Programming, it fits what we do pretty well

I can get behind that.

And sport also preserves (kind of) the golf aspect

but we dont host competitions as such..

@Geobits make an answer for Code Sport, and I'll make one for Competitive Programming?

4:47 PM

@Calvin'sHobbies Yes, but it sounds so strange.

gramcramming.stackexchange.com

3

@AlexA. LOL

@MartinBüttner I think I might like Rainbolt's idea a bit better. Competitive programming sounds nice, but codesport is a good subdomain.

I do like Code Sport, though :D

I thought you were the originator of that idea

I just backed it lol

nochange.stackexchange.com

That is the best subdomain name ever

I smell pizza

Oh right... today is lunch and learn

Usually it's on Thursday but this week they moved it

4:52 PM

@trichoplax I have. You and I talked about it once. It requires all sorts of skills I don't have though. :P

@MartinBüttner So, does that mean that the cop answer is invalid?

@Dennis if it requires jQuery and doesn't embed it, yes.

@MartinBüttner But jQuery is best query.

@Geobits so where do I vote on it :P

Hold on a minute :P

4:54 PM

holdonaminute.stackexchange.com

@BetaDecay I laughed so hard at this that I almost choked on my cereal.

needsabettername.stackexchange.com

geobits.stackexchange.com

generalprogrammingquestionsareofftopicforthosetrystackoverflow.stackexchange.com

whateverPPCGstandsfor.stackexchange.com

misleadingtitle.stackeschange.com

@MartinBüttner OK, I've left a comment on the answer. There are two more answers by the same cop that may require your attention: 1. This one seems to use an unimplemented language. 2. This one was edited after I cracked it to make it work in the language he intended. Since I found a working language for the original revision, that seems to be an unnecessary violation of the rules.

4:58 PM

thisisnot.stackoverflow.com

@ETHproductions impossible