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12:20 AM
only novel approach i can think of is 10 bytes :/
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

BubblerWe all know how to SKI, but can you BCKW? code-golf combinatory-logic functional-programming lambda-calculus Background Lambda calculus is a model of computation using lambda terms. A variable \$x\$ is a lambda term. If \$E\$ is a lambda term, the lambda abstraction \$\lambda x. E\$ is a lambda ...

 
12:43 AM
@SandboxPosts Get out of my brain!
I swear I was thinking of nearly the exact same thing just today
 
CMP: How would you pronounce BCKW?
 
"Back-Wuh"
Or maybe more "back-kwuh"
 
I agree up to BaCK, had no idea about the W part
 
@Bubbler All the letters individually (Bee See Kay Dublew)
@SandboxPosts This might also be interesting as a meta golf challenge (or atomic meta golf, I guess)
 
you could arrange it bwck and pronounce it like book
 
12:54 AM
The Welsh w?
 
Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Make me some puzzles
 
1:12 AM
poo
 
1:35 AM
What is cross product useful for? Is it a good built-in for a golfing language or no?
 
Given that it's only properly defined for 3-vectors and 7-vectors, I doubt it
Could be worth a digraph if you have those
 
0
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

BubblerOrdered, linear, affine, or relevant? code-golf functional-programming lambda-calculus combinatory-logic Background Supplementary reading 1, Supplementary reading 2 Linear lambda calculus is a limited form of lambda calculus, where every bound variable must be used exactly once. For example, \a b...

 
@RedwolfPrograms Cross product is useful for calculating the area of a triangle, or calculating the determinant of a 3x3 matrix. Probably too niche though (and yeah, it has way too narrow domain to be widely useful)
 
@RedwolfPrograms as s digraph, maybe
 
I'm not planning on having digraphs in any future languages, honestly
 
1:43 AM
very good digraph
i can see why you'd avoid them from a sort of artistic standpoint
 
Plus it's so much work implementing hundreds of extra operators that'll get used like once
 
Digraphs only really mean anything in golfing langs
 
for the exact same reason that they are essential for being super golfy
 
Normal esolangs aren't concerned enough with having that large a builtin set, a non-golfing langs don't have single byte commands :P
Feel free to bring up APL, J, k etc. to prove me wrong
 
About time to compress programs to the bit level
 
1:46 AM
I wouldn't really consider that compression
It still takes a lot of work to figure out how to weight the different operators, it's not just like feeding your code through gzip and calling it a day
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing J has LOTS of digraphs and even a few trigraphs, and K has a few digraphs too
 
@Bubbler Yeah, J is close to all digraphs :P
 
Lol, yeah
 
How does J's backtick operator/function/whatever works?
 
reminds me i really like the use of colon for digraphs, aesthetically
 
Using colons for anything is really nice aesthetically, probably one of the top ten printable ASCII characters :p
 
Letters are by far the worst aesthetically tbh
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing That one is simply a hack to create a list of strings
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Some are nice :p
 
1:50 AM
a, d, f, n, r, w, z, and some others
 
o is alright, the rest are meh
 
o is just too blue
 
laughs in that's the whole point of Keg
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing A proper answer: refer to this page. Primary usage is calling one of multiple functions based on a condition, or hacking other primitives to fit into a train or cycling through multiple functions during reduction (I guess Jelly's tie is inspired by this one)
 
I think I've got the basis for how the commands will work in Mixology, now I just need to think about what commands I should add :/
 
1:55 AM
Every built in present in python?
 
Ah yes, the essentially bytes builtin :P
 
@AmethystWizard Is there any context I'm missing for this?
 
@RedwolfPrograms poo
 
I have an idea for a golflang where you write a "literate" code that somewhat looks like K, and the "compiler" converts it to a binary format that encodes the shape of the AST and the list of built-ins and argument references in a separate section
 
@RedwolfPrograms no I just wanted to write poo
 
1:58 AM
@AmethystWizard Why here?
 
At least do it on Code Review :p
 
@Bubbler This should nullify all the decision making problems between prefix/tacit/stack/whatever :P
 
No, because the AST representation still has to be one of those! :p
 
AST will be encoded to a single integer.
 
he he, I opened the first global chatroom that seemed boring
then thought, I better write poo
 
2:00 AM
@lyxal where's tuple smh
 
@AmethystWizard It's not super disruptive, but you should probably refrain from doing that in the future :p
 
I really should go to bed, but I have a fan here and not in my room, I'm in the middle of a good binge and I don't really want to go to bed :P
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing what temperature is it?
 
@lyxal Too hot for me :P
 
2:02 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing so probably 18° as the max
 
It's fairly cool outside, but inside is weirdly hot :/
 
Do you consider 15°C to be hot?
 
My parents insist that 78°F (25.5°C) is perfectly cool for sleeping >:|
 
@lyxal Not usually
 
Probably the nukes, put them in your fridge :P
 
2:03 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing good
 
@RedwolfPrograms That or they're just cheap and all the cold air sinks down to their room anyway
 
@RedwolfPrograms you don’t agree?
 
@RedwolfPrograms they're right. I'd take 25°C any day of the week during summer over high 30s
 
It's 16°C outside rn, but my house is stupid hot
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing what is it inside?
 
2:04 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing As I said, put your nukes in the fridge or take them outside smh
 
@lyxal Yeah but...it's not like that in your house hopefully (high 30s)?
 
@lyxal 26°C according to the temperature thing
 
@RedwolfPrograms Not since HN nikes their fridge
 
@RedwolfPrograms hehe you try sleeping through high 30s with only a fan and tell me you don't appreciate 25
@cairdcoinheringaahing yeah okay I can see how that's hot. Can you open any windows?
 
Houses here are built to keep heat :/
@lyxal Not in the room I'm currently in
 
2:06 AM
@lyxal No, she uses cairdOS
 
Just has window-door things that I will forget to lock if I open them
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing how about in your room?
 
@lyxal Yeah, I have my window open in my room, but it's not as good as a fan
 
Try eating some ice cream to feel better
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing could you sneak outside for a moment to enjoy the cool outside for a while?
 
2:07 AM
I find a cold beer is better :P
@lyxal Patch insists of going to the toilet every hour or so, so I take advantage of those :P
 
Very clever.
Alright, next suggestion: do you have any tea towels nearby? Because if so, wet it with cold water, wring the water out of it and put it around your neck
That's how I managed summer this year
 
I've never seen Patch more tired tbh, but he will run himself into the ground before ever not running, so during the day when it's 25+, he's out in the garden chasing the ball around for 10+ hours constant :P
 
what the hell is a tea towel
 
@lyxal Is central air conditioning not a thing in Australia?
 
2:10 AM
@UnrelatedString A towel you use to soak up spilt tea, something every good Brit (+ people in the Colonies) has
 
@RedwolfPrograms the AC didn't reach my room
 
oh one of those
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing and Aussie too
Oh wait you mentioned colonies
Nvm
 
@lyxal Don't listed to lyxal, he's a liar :P
Those are soup spoons
 
@RedwolfPrograms in some places though, it isn't. In those places, people have their homes underground
That's mostly in the actual outback like Alice Springs and the lower NT
 
2:13 AM
> Coober Pedy
That doesn't sound like a real place
 
It jd
*is
And I was right about it
 
Wasn't it an opal mining town or something?
 
I was questioning my knowledge of geography when I saw it was in SA but it's an underground town
@RedwolfPrograms yes
Coober Pedy () is a town in northern South Australia, 846 km (526 mi) north of Adelaide on the Stuart Highway. The town is sometimes referred to as the "opal capital of the world" because of the quantity of precious opals that are mined there. Coober Pedy is renowned for its below-ground residences, called "dugouts", which are built in this fashion due to the scorching daytime heat. The name "Coober Pedy" comes from an Aboriginal term kupa-piti, which means "whitefellas' hole". In the 2016 Census, there were 1,762 people in Coober Pedy. == History == Aboriginal people have a long-standin...
See, homes in the ground
Because it's that hot
 
I maintain that everything in Australia, including lyxal, wants to kill you :P
 
Oh yeah obviously
 
2:16 AM
I'd hate to live somewhere like that, anything over 22°C is uncomfortably hot :p
(For indoors)
 
@RedwolfPrograms Yeah, I wouldn't want to be out that way either
Luckily for me I'm on the east coast dabs aggressively because the Hunter region is cool
 
I like how there's a citation needed for "[v]ery little plant life exists in town" :p
@lyxal At least it looks like that place has a low humidity, it's often nearly 40°C and ridiculously humid here :/
 
CMQ: What's your impressions of Australia?
 
Upside down Texas but an island and more british
 
As in, what would you expect to see if you came over here right now?
 
2:19 AM
Annoyingly good at cricket, very hot, full of deadly creatures
Plus, it's full of barbeques, all of which perpetually have shrimp on them :P
 
The irony is that practically no one I know actually does that
 
bbq'ed shrimp is actually pretty solid, ngl
 
Sounds like it'd end up overcooked
 
Confession: I've never had barbecued shrimp and I'm Australian
 
Grounds for revoking citizenship? :P
 
2:28 AM
@JoKing have you ever chucked another shrimp on the barbie?
 
Is there a word for something like combinations or permutations, but where items can be repeated? E.g., [1, 2, 4, 8] with 2 could give you [1, 2], [1, 1], [2, 2], [2, 4] etc.
 
Combinations with replacement?
 
Thanks!
 
@RedwolfPrograms Jelly, 2 bytes œċ :P
 
@RedwolfPrograms Vyxal, 1 byte:
 
2:40 AM
I'm starting on an extremely cursed JS library :p
 
So normal JS? :P
 
Actually it's less cursed than normal JS, but from a JS dev's perspective it is extremely worrying
 
non builtin, ṗṢƑƇ
 
@UnrelatedString That only works if the input is sorted
 
...true
 
2:45 AM
@RedwolfPrograms I'm completely removing all of the existing JS prototypes for the basic types, then designing my own.
 
ahh, nice
 
The more tacit version is 9 bytes :/
i can be a pain to work with if the arguments don't work :/
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing Don't say that about yourself. I'm sure people find it pleasent working with you even if your arguments aren't correct :p
 
dfhjkshkgjlh
4
nice. i didn't even notice that cuz of the codeblocked i and I know that index-of is often very annoying
 
2:56 AM
@hyper-neutrino A very enlightened contribution to the conversation :P
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing evidently so, as seen by the stars, which in TNB obviously indicate an interesting message worth showing other chat visitors
 
> Mobile view is being deprecated in favour of the responsive design
Maintenance planned for July 24, 12pm UTC/8am US EDT
dfhjkshkgjlh
Expert golfers REVEAL: You won't believe how GREAT this chat room is!
YOU WOULDN'T DOWNLOAD A GAY PERSON
You won't, just like how websites you visit won't know if you're secretly a gay pirate assassin
Remember, kids: If anyone offers you unicode, just say no.
That's... surprisingly representative of us tbh :P
 
3:37 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing tl;dr: The awesome chat room is a big part of the reason why I love Reddit.
(this summary provided by GPT-3)
I'm not a tech guy, but I do see a future where the fastest way to get a stream is to get a streamer who has the best stream, then record it on the fastest stream, and then stream it to someone who has the best stream.
 
Honestly it's kind of hard to tell when you're posting as you or GPT-3 sometimes :p
 
(my above message should apparently recieve 4 stars)
 
Designing a language that really feels like it shouldn't be TC when it actually is is a lot of fun
 
> Jelly is a programming language. It is a special type of programming language called a "tacit programming language". This means that you can make new programs by combining old ones.
> Nilads take no arguments (arity 0). They are like numbers, like 3. There is a special kind of nilad called a literal, which does not need to be made with a link, like 3.
> There is only one kind of link that takes no arguments (arity 0), and that's a "literal". There is only one kind of link that takes one argument (arity 1), and that's a "monad". There is only one kind of link that takes two arguments (arity 2), and that's a "dyad".
Jelly, as summarised by AI given the first section of the tutorial
as summarised for a second grader
 
Surprisingly accurate, I honestly thought you were copy-pasting someone's work-in-progress Jelly tutorial :p
 
3:52 AM
> Jelly is like a secret code. You can make a program by putting together lots of little words, and you can make new words by putting together lots of little letters. The way the words are put together tells the computer what to do.
I gave it a bit more of the tutorial
> Jelly is a programming language that lets you write a recipe for a program. Each recipe is a chain of links. The links are like steps in the recipe. The links are like the ingredients. You can write a recipe for a cake, or for a pizza, or for anything else you can think of. You can write a recipe for your own game. Or you can write a recipe for something you found on the internet.
 
Well, I was working on an in-depth Jelly teaching document, but I think I'll just let GPT do it instead :P
 
> Functions are like chains. The last link in the chain is the one that gets called.

The links before the last link are like little boxes. In each box, you can write a function. So you can have a box with a function in it, and then another box with a function in it, and so on.

When you call a link, you pass it some arguments (like if you call a function). Those arguments go into the box. So if you call the box with the function inside it, you can use the arguments to do things.
 
That sounds like someone who's really bad at explaining things but wants to be helpful :p
 
> We start by looking at the leftmost thing in the chain.
Then we look at the next thing in the chain, and keep going until we get to the right end of the chain.
Then we take all the things we looked at, and put them together.
@cairdcoinheringaahing I wouldn't hold your breath on that:
> When you do a math problem, the first thing you do is add one to the number.

Then you add two.

Then you add three.

Then you add four.

Then you add five.

Then you add six.

Then you add seven.

Then you add eight.
How much is that? It's nine.
 
such math much wow
Cool, try running this in the console on chat: Notifier().notify("This does exactly what you'd expect.")
 
3:58 AM
wow
 
@lyxal All math problems are apparently -27
 
@RedwolfPrograms if you wanted to do that in python, you'd write:
from notifier import Notifier
Notifier().notify("This does exactly what you'd expect.")
at least that's what it said
because it can to js to python
 
4:10 AM
morning
 
Morning (almost)! :p
 
it is hopefully a day when i finish something
 
Aw man I clicked "juice" instead of "drink", which makes it slightly less entertaining
 
@RedwolfPrograms "We ate a lot of hay."
 
jugo feels like it's either to play or to drink :p idk why
 
4:15 AM
"jugo" actually could mean "I play" IIRC
 
juice em chickiens
 
jugo as "to play" is probably just cuz of jouer from french
 
Just thinking about pronouncing that hurts my head
 
it's not actually that bad lol, and it actually makes sense given french pronunciation
if you want a word that causes headaches if you don't know french pronunciation
try oiseaux :P
 
i knew it
i knew you were gonna post chicken
 
4:22 AM
Anything french is guaranteed to look completely unpronounceable to me :p
 
@Razetime that is "bird"
 
@hyper-neutrino My guess is something like "oy-so" or "wah-so"
But in a snooty french accent
 
woh-zou
 
oh yeah chicken is poulet
 
oi is woh
 
4:23 AM
my french is bad
 
the s is a z cuz funny
and eau is just long O, and the trailing X is silent as usual
 
CMQ: When casting an array of strings to a single string, what should the strings be joined with by default?
Nothing, spaces, commas, and newlines all seem like somewhat reasonable options
 
nothing
 
4:48 AM
@lyxal i don't really eat seafood
 
 
1 hour later…
5:57 AM
I just crashed my computer
 
 
1 hour later…
6:58 AM
@RedwolfPrograms ,
 
@PyGamer0 well done
@RedwolfPrograms empty string
 
@RedwolfPrograms |
 
@hyper-neutrino or my favourite, écureuil
 
7:24 AM
@RedwolfPrograms ​
 
Just wanted to say hi bc it's been a slightly-longer-than-usual amount of time! I'm checking often though; please feel free to ping for anything & everything anytime!
 
hi
 
RLE + eval?
 
7:31 AM
@pxeger does jelly have loops?
 
7:51 AM
Jelly has many kinds of loops. Check the quicks page
Meanwhile, a highly experimental golflang design: I have 15 commands that can do 107 different things in total
 
@Bubbler how would you make that?
 
overloading?
 
Every command is ternary. Each command is overloaded based on four kinds of data (something, nothing, and two kinds of functions) on each slot
If a command takes two nothings, it essentially acts as a monadic function on the third thing, and it can be one of three different monadic functions based on where the actual thing is
So even without counting higher-order functions, you get seven possible overloads for each command
And the primary higher-order command @ currently has 19 different overloads
 
8:59 AM
Does anyone know:
How do you watch a multiline string in VScode's debugger (python)?
By default, it's just showing it to me as: aslglajsg\nsljgag\n\talsg but since it's a formatted string, it'd be really nice to see what it actually looks like
watching the expression print(str) just gives None
I'm sure there's an issue on this, or something in the docs, but I can't find anything. Any Google wizards?
 
doesn't seem to be any way of doing it, no
it always takes the repr of the value
this might work:
class StringWrapper:
    def __init__(self, s):
        self._s = s

    def __repr__(self):
        return self._s

    def __str__(self):
        return self._s
StringWrapper("foo")
 
Oh, it's taking the repr! I'm not at my brightest at 2am. Thanks that's at a great idea!
Did you find anything on Google?
If not, I should ask on SO at some point, and let you answer so we can share the rep :P
If it's taking the repr though, we shouldn't need the str line, right?
I'm guessing that's from before you figured out which it was?
 
@AviFS well I just added __str__ because then it acts more like a string
 
haha, that's a good point
 
@AviFS no I just know that repr is what results in things like aslglajsg\nsljgag\n\talsg
 
9:14 AM
I totally got that it was your brilliance. Just wondering if you tried finding stuff online, and were or weren't able to
 
haha
 
maybe you didn't try
 
no, the VScode documentation had very little info about the debugger watch expressions
 
it's true :(
and also, it doesn't quite work...
it only shows the first line and you can't expand it
but i did see issues related to that earlier
 
oh, it's probably not expecting to have newlines in the repr I guess
 
9:18 AM
yeah, it must not be
 
Probably the watch window itself is simply not designed to show multiline stuff
I can't find anything relevant on vscode docs or stackoverflow
and a seemingly related issue mentioned adding a config but the config itself was removed shortly after that
 
try using a command-line debugger or something?
 
Also... some people would say that debuggers are for noobs :P
 
It's my first time using the debugger... it's like a videogame
@Bubbler But I did find this:
17
Q: How to show the entire value in VSCode debug mode

coloradomanI have been having trouble seeing the entire value of variables while debugging in Go. When I click on a rather long value, it shows me ... +# more. But I can't find a way to see the rest of that value. Even in watch mode it does the same thing, even when I click copy value it copies the ...+# m...

Except the launch.json setting are for the go debugger.
There's good chance it's also possible for python, but there's no similar named or obvious arg
 
It's not about showing multiple lines
 
9:26 AM
Oh...
 
and the settings in VScode are very specific to each language plugin, so settings for other languages won't help you at all
 
I'm trying to look at a parse tree in the debugger
Turns out that's very hard to read without newlines
 
Why not just print() it in code, not the debugger?
 
Esp this one which is ridiculously verbose
@Bubbler I can also use the debugging console
It just seemed so cool to have a pprint display updated dynamically
LUXURIOUS
but really, how cool would that be?
 
Luxury comes at a cost
 
9:28 AM
a visualization of a parse tree updated dynamically
@Bubbler vscode comes at a cost
this isn't my usual modus operandi, fwiw. just the early hours of the morning and i want to figure this out with my fried brain bf sleep
 
I suggest you forget the debugger thing and go to sleep. It's not the right tool for watching something more complex than some numbers
 
No reason it shouldn't be though, tbh
I can keep running the pprint() func each line in the console
And it runs instantly, it's a small parse tree. Just up arrow and return
And on the sidebar w/ watch vars, they have the structure to do it
It lets you watch pretty complex stuff with arrows to toggle more and less info
Eg classes, and you can open up and look at all funcs, vars... too many. All the way until __class__, __delattr__, __dict__...
So giving you the option to toggle recursively showing you way too much is def not the issue. It's just odd that multiline strings aren't a thing. It's just stuff like classes, funcs & dicts
recursion at it's finest, muahaha
 
9:52 AM
that was a really nasty bug to figure out
Public Service Announcement: Never write things like for tree in tree.children:
 
Lol.
Python scoping strikes again
Even I get random bugs due to overwriting counter variables like that
 

JS array looping jankiness

May 27 at 15:05, 12 minutes total – 38 messages, 3 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 27 at 15:19 by pxeger

related
 
10:12 AM
I really love Rust in this regard because let x = 0; let x = x + 1; does sane thing (and using let always works when I don't want to risk overwriting anything)
And another golflang update: I ended up with 16 commands doing 129 different jobs
 
replacing one of them with syntax for extended commands or constants might be better
 
16 commands - does that mean you'll have a 4-bit encoding like Nibbles or Risky?
 
and I still have multiple slots for extended commands
Yeah, it'll be 4-bit for commands part. I'm not decided with other parts yet though
 
10:36 AM
@hyper-neutrino Isn't it "birds", because the "x" at the end makes it plural?
 
yes
 
That, and "Bonjour, ou est la toilette?" about covers the extent of my French :P
@AncientSwordRage Hello!
 
would this make a good code puzzle?
@cairdcoinheringaahing \\oo/
7
Q: She Lia Squared: Our daughter asked, “How many words can it make?”

SkorpionOur daughter recently conned my wife and I into purchasing interlocking foam squares for her bedroom floor. On each square is a different letter of the alphabet. To cover her entire floor we had to purchase 4 packages. After moving all her furniture to one side of the room I commenced laying out ...

 
@cairdcoinheringaahing où
 
10:41 AM
@cairdcoinheringaahing and if you ask to go to the bathroom in English "May we" but get the confusing reply of "Mais, oui" it can really mess you up...
 
@AncientSwordRage It looks interesting. The biggest problems I see is with defining a word list (I.e. "what is/isn't a word?") and that arguably it's a fixed output problem, meaning for that it wouldn't work well as a standard code golf
@pxeger It takes extra effort to type accents tho :P
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing ah yeah, I guess it is fixed output once it's solved
 
well just say the word list is the input
 
You could do it as one commenter suggested, and make it so that the answer that finds the most words wins
 
@pxeger how do you enforce using it?
 
10:44 AM
But I don't know whether that would produce an interesting challenge or not. It could potentially be a where answers have X time to produce an output, largest number of words wins
@AncientSwordRage You say that only words in the input list "count". So you can produce garbage, but only the words actually matter
 
@cairdcoinheringaahing ok, so once you find the best answer (from that list) you can discard the input and use a compressed string version
 
If it were a code golf challenge, it'd probably have to be something like "Given a list of words, output a grid of letters and empty spaces where every word in the grid is a member of the input list"
Obviously, more spec + detail ("what is a 'word' in the grid?") but that'd be a decent barebones
 
 
2 hours later…
12:42 PM
 
^ suprised it's not a duplicate... well known problem
 
i remember one of caird questions which was similar
but not exact
 
1:02 PM
BMG starts in 2 hours!
 
0
Q: King of the Hill: Nose Poker - An ogre game for ogres

AJFaradayNose Poker is an ogre game played by a group of ogres. Each ogre brings a large nose and a small club. On each hand, all the ogres will declare how many times they will poke their nose with the club. Each time, the lowest bid(s) will be knocked out of the game, then the remaining ogres will poke ...

 
<span id="class">… nah, it'll be fine!
 
Welp, the game of Thud failed, so I've swapped it out for a much simpler game to try and reuse my KotH infrastructure.
 
but I can't use the words important and medieval in my answers :(
 
1:20 PM
I don't see why not :p
Unless it's code golf, I suppose, then it might be a bit wasteful
 
@Razetime This is the closest of mine, I believe
 

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