The Nineteenth Byte - 2017-06-29 (page 9 of 10)

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7:00 PM

4 mins ago, by Mr. Xcoder

As some might know (from earlier chat messages), I want to make an esolang called `Cthulhu`, and I was wondering what you think the empty program should output, vote: a) `Face the fury of Cthulhu`, b) `Cthulhu`, c) A random String, d) The alphabet, e) `Hello World!`, f)`“Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.`, g)`When the stars were right, They could plunge from world to world through the sky; but when the stars were wrong, They could not live.`, h) `Мисля, че една от най-големите милости, които ни се оказват в този свят, е невъзможността на човешкият ум да осъзнае своята нищо…

Strawpoll

inb4 a KC challenge for the russian

inb4 it gets closed as a dupe

Cthulhu ( kə-THOO-loo; for variant pronunciations, see below) is a cosmic entity created by writer H. P. Lovecraft and first introduced in the short story "The Call of Cthulhu", published in the American pulp magazine Weird Tales in 1928. Considered a Great Old One within the pantheon of Lovecraftian cosmic entities, the creature has since been featured in numerous popular culture references. Lovecraft depicts Cthulhu as a gigantic entity worshipped by cultists. Cthulhu's appearance is described as looking like an octopus, a dragon and a caricature of human form. Its name was given to the Lovecraft...

It should be some random string with zalgo

@trichoplax By H. P. Lovecraft

@Mr.Xcoder I am familiar with Cthulhu, just wondering the purpose of the language :)

7:01 PM

@trichoplax Purpose? Golfing!

@trichoplax What was this in reply to?

No, the language.

Ah OK

@Mr.Xcoder no no no no it has to output this: stackoverflow.com/a/1732454/7605753

@ZacharyT Some comments

The language is completely dead, but looks so amazing. ACTUALLY based on Math notation, cough apl cough.

7:03 PM

@Mr.Xcoder I see. So the name doesn't indicate anything about how the language works?

@trichoplax Not really

@trichoplax Besides for some future functions

@StepHen how is that related to cthulhu

ccs.neu.edu/home/samth/fortress-spec.pdf

In that case make the empty program something useful...

Almost done with Brain-Flak flag documentation...

7:03 PM

@trichoplax Like?

None of the above :P

@totallyhuman That answer is a Lovecraftian homage

@Phoenix So. Will. Everybody. gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2017-06/msg00111.html

It has to be something meaningful, the empty program should be related to the name of the language

@trichoplax In PPCG, "useful" means that with 1 input, it does a primality check, and with 2 inputs, it adds them

@totallyhuman D is related to C.

7:05 PM

STRAWPOLL OVER - WINNER: "Мисля, че една от най-големите милости, които ни се оказват в този свят, е невъзможността на човешкият ум да осъзнае своята нищожност."

D is like C++, but a golfier pun on "better than C"

@StepHen Polyglot:

print("Мисля, че една от най-големите милости, които ни се оказват в този свят, е невъзможността на човешкият ум да осъзнае своята нищожност.")

translate: Мисля, че една от най-големите милости, които ни се оказват в този свят, е невъзможността на човешкият ум да осъзнае своята нищожност.

@trichoplax "I think that one of the greatest mercies that we have in this world is the impossibility of the human mind to realize its nullity.""

@Mr.Xcoder Make the empty program do something absurdly complicated, like find the longest common substring of two strings if it is given two string arguments; if it is given two integer inputs, it will calculate the nth root of x; if given one string input, it will XOR it with a random string and output that, and if it is given no inputs, it prints "Мисля, че една от най-големите милости, които ни се оказват в този свят, е невъзможността на човешкият ум да осъзнае своята нищожност." Sound good?

(That took too much time and effort to type)

7:08 PM

@ckjbgames @Uriel wants it to do tetration

@StepHen That would be fine\

@ckjbgames Will consider that.

:38460839 Just substitute those for a bunch of solutions to complex programming problems.

Maybe.

@trichoplax Ironic, as D is not good for golfing, whatsoever.

7:10 PM

@trichoplax The name should be P, because "D" isn't the letter after the "C" in "BCPL."

They actually were debating between P, D, and Mars (named after the Digital Mars C/C++ compiler)

In latin, "Мисля, че една от най-големите милости, които ни се оказват в този свят, е невъзможността на човешкият ум да осъзнае своята нищожност." sounds like "EGO puto ut unum ex multis in mundo est, non posse praetenditur habere mentem ut animadverto suae agnitione humani".

@EinkornEnchanter How should I explain current values?

@EinkornEnchanter gist.github.com/ckjbgames/d72069b8636d50bbad83f77e853c2a2d

Could someone find @EinkornEnchanter for me?

Wasn't C named after B, which was named after BCPL?

@betseg Yep

7:19 PM

@betseg Currently, there's a functional, feature-complete, B compiler that works on modern machines, written in BlitzMax of all things.

BlitzMax does not work on TIO.

Oh, I also know Pascal (only a little), PHP, Batch, Bash, Visual Basic, and VBScript. (It's bad when you forget which languages you have experience in)

@Phoenix Link???

@ZacharyT Yasha's B Compiler

@EinkornEnchanter Why the new alias?

At least the alliteration is still there...

on the newslwetter site, PPCG is listed as technology and not recreation.. I think that may be a bit off...

@tuskiomi That's where we're put atm, check the footer too

7:25 PM

If anything, we're both.

CMC: Guess what a =- 2; does in B without looking it up

LegionMammal978

lol

@Phoenix Subtracts 2 from a

@Phoenix decrement a by 2?

@Phoenix Uh, getting this out of the way: sets a to -2

@Phoenix same thing as -= in common languages?

LegionMammal978

7:26 PM

^

I dunno. I think that entertainment is a better fit, but it doesn't matter for now.

@totallyhuman Yes it's terrible.

LegionMammal978

Due to parser hacks

@totallyhuman Yeah, this is my guess.

LegionMammal978

In C, it would probably set a to -2

7:27 PM

@LegionMammal978 What kind of parser hacks? Just a simple substitution?

@LegionMammal978 Why probably? Macros?

The question then is, does a=-2 parse as a =- 2 or as a = -2?

god

stop

@Phoenix The first two are the same

@Phoenix or the classic "what is the --> operator in C"

oh yeah

7:30 PM

@Phoenix And the third... It actually works?

It tries to assign -2 to a

And ... is a valid variable name.

Einkorn Enchanter

@ckjbgames github.com/DJMcMayhem/Brain-Flak/wiki/Debug-Flags

C came a long way from B.

Because . isn't used for anything, there are no floats or classes or anything.

Einkorn Enchanter

7:32 PM

@mbomb007 I wanted to change things up, its not permanent.

Therefore, valid letter.

@ZacharyT And... ,,, is a valid language name

@Phoenix Forget my comments

@StepHen Oh.

So is A Programming Language, to be honest, anything's more creative than that.

> There is essentially no global scope in B. To use global variables, they must be redeclared inside the function body, with extrn.

7:34 PM

@Phoenix, do you program in D as well?

@ZacharyT look man I thought it was funny :P

@ZacharyT No.

,,,, 34 bytes

Well, it's not good for golfing, whatsoever.

plus commata sounds professional

7:35 PM

@totallyhuman ?

commata - plural of comma

...

periods?

..., 34 bytes does also look funny

Those were being used as shock/disbelief.

:P tried to make a bad joke sorry

7:38 PM

@EinkornEnchanter Thanks! Could you credit me?

Einkorn Enchanter

OH sure

@EinkornEnchanter Thanks!

:o I could've totally answered this with ,,,

@totallyhuman too bad it's closed

mm

7:43 PM

Oops I dun goofed xD

How?

^

I was trying to make a loader in CSS and instead of spinning the image, I made the image circle around the whole page

You know that someone is star abusing when a post saying "^" is starred.

At least it's not star spamming.

7:45 PM

@ZacharyT Same difference

@StepHen How does that phrase even exist?

Because the human population is a massively parallel annoying phrase generator

> Same difference is an idiomatic oxymoron. It effectively means that whether these two choices are the same or different is immaterial to me.

From english.stackexchange.com/a/187047/222219

@trichoplax Agree

8:02 PM

CMC: Output 2222, without 22 appearing anywhere in your source

without 22 appearing or without 2 appearing?

@totallyhuman 22

Without a 2 makes it all about ASCII or tricks

,,,, 5 bytes: "2"4×

@StepHen V, 3 bytes: 4i2

print("2"*4)

8:04 PM

Phonetic description of annoying sounds teenagers make

@StepHen Brain-flak, 32 bytes: ((((((((()()()){}){}){}()){}))))

SOGL, 3 bytes: ⁶ā“

MY, 8 bytes: 02 26 02 26 02 26 02 26 (hex).

@DJMcMayhem I made some documentation for you on Brain Flak, you happy? :)

Which programming languages are neither implemented in C nor in a language which was implemented in C, etc.?

8:09 PM

@Adám Jelly.

@StepHen APL: 4⍴⍕2

@ckjbgames Python is implemented in C right?

@ckjbgames Oh, yeah I just saw that! Thanks :)

@StepHen yes

B, BCPL.

8:10 PM

@DJMcMayhem Anytime!

@ckjbgames nor in a language which was implemented in C

@DJMcMayhem I am planning on answering a question with almost Brain-Flak debug flags. It will be fun (and painful). :^)

@StepHen Brachylog, 3 bytes: 2j₄

@ckjbgames Now you wanna help with V docs? :P

So, a language that's implemented in a language that's implemented in a language that's implemented in C would count?

8:11 PM

@ZacharyT i guess

of course not, using common sense

@Adám Well Java is implemented in Java...

@ZacharyT dunno

@Fatalize So what compiled Java then? :P

@Fatalize Sun JVM is written in C

@ZacharyT etc.

8:13 PM

@Adám RPG

@Adám whether the JVM is part of the implementation of Java or not is debatable

Well, obviously any language written before C was not implemented in C. That's not interesting. Which languages newer than C were not based on C on some level?

Python's interpreter is written in C but the standard library is all python

@Poke So, that is not an answer then.

@Poke yes

8:17 PM

you could argue the language isn't useful without the standard library

try rewriting jelly in c. that should deal some damage

immediately increases byte count of interpreter by a hundred lines

@ckjbgames Try rewriting Jelly in APL (or better yet J).

@Adám that sounds like hell

@ckjbgames Not at all. It would be rather trivial. Probably no more than 300 lines of code.

8:19 PM

@ckjbgames Why? They are basically the same language(s)

@StepHen i don't know either one

@Adám I'd guess around 200

@ckjbgames They are like Jelly just useful and not quite as terse

prolog isn't based on c

@StepHen i know, but they confuse me so much :v

8:20 PM

most if it in J might be using unicode characters, idk how to do that off the top of my head

@StepHen Exactly, you'd use one line for each of Jelly's atoms and quicks, and a few could be combined. Then some overhead for the parsing. But Jelly is really simple to parse compared to APL and J.

@Poke All main Prolog distros are written in C

@ConorO'Brien J supports unicode. u:

right, idk how it would work tho

mostly because my terminal hates unicode

@ConorO'Brien wat u use

CensoredUsername

8:21 PM

the rust compiler was originally written in Ocaml

@ConorO'Brien Just read a char from the left, and look-up the correct action.

cmder

@CensoredUsername kewl

@ConorO'Brien I have a J IDE installed (on Windows) that supports Unicode.

there's a J ide ? :o

8:22 PM

@ConorO'Brien jqt

oh I think I have that

If there's a freaking esoteric IDE, there's an IDE for any semi-known actual language

@StepHen yup

@ConorO'Brien code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Guides/Qt_IDE/Install

lisp?

8:24 PM

@StepHen fortran

@ConorO'Brien eclipse.org/photran

@StepHen K?

anyone here play geometry dash

cobol? q? B?

@ConorO'Brien Q?

8:26 PM

Q (programming language from Kx Systems)

Q is a proprietary array processing language developed by Arthur Whitney and commercialized by Kx Systems. The language serves as the query language for kdb+, a disk based and in-memory, column-based database. kdb+ is based upon K, a terse variant of APL. Q is a thin wrapper around K, providing a more readable, English-like interface. == Overview == The fundamental building blocks of Q are atoms, lists and functions. Atoms are scalars and include numeric, character, date and time data types. Lists are ordered collections of atoms (or other lists) upon which the higher level data structure...

@Riker oh

Does anyone here play GD?

@Adám github.com/kevinlawler/kona kind of, it's hard to search for single letter programming languages

@StepHen yup

@ConorO'Brien github.com/OpenCobolIDE/OpenCobolIDE

@StepHen An IDE?

8:28 PM

@Adám Not really, but as I said it's hard to search for single letter languages

@ConorO'Brien timestored.com/qstudio

cheddar

what games do you guys play (like, video games)

@StepHen Well, that looks like a K IDE.

@ckjbgames KSP.

@ckjbgames TF2

@Adám I dunno

8:29 PM

@ckjbgames Overwatch, Terraria, Minecraft, Cluster Truck, Borderlands 2, others...

I play a lot

the only thing i play anymore is geometry dash
seriously
it's fun tho

@DJMcMayhem same

@StepHen KDB+ is Q, which in turn is just K (if you type backslash, enter)

Oh, and I just got in to fallout 4.

@DJMcMayhem i'm a pleb. can't afford

@ConorO'Brien That's an esolang :P

8:30 PM

kek

@StepHen ... no it's not ?

@ckjbgames Steam summer sales. 15$

@StepHen cheddar is supposed to be practical

@DJMcMayhem oh heck.

I also got Doom for 10 bucks, and a friend gave me Shadow Of Mordor. I don't normally play full price AAA games, but I just got a ton of them

8:31 PM

@DJMcMayhem i had a steam account when i was 9. my dad set it up, but i dunno the password. i used it for terraria. kekkkkkk

@CensoredUsername I like a nice sweet spot: Challenges that can be easily understood instantly, but have many non-obvious different approaches where it's hard to tell which one is best. That's why this one is still one of my favorite challenges I've ever posted.

5

@DJMcMayhem starred

@DJMcMayhem I bought the Valve complete pack for $5.66

I also bought a Steam Link for $15

@Mendeleev damn

@ckjbgames I already had part of it, so there's that

8:37 PM

the game i want is, like, $3 or something

@Mendeleev aahh

It's normally $17.52

@Mendeleev lucky you

CMC: Map PC and phone numpads: 7←→1, 8←→2, 9←→3, 4←→4, 5←→5, 6←→6, 0←→0. E.g 2017 → 8071. 31415 → 97475.

anyone want my youtube channel (link)

Pretty much every game on there is 75+% off

CensoredUsername

8:39 PM

@DJMcMayhem those are nice, but personally (and that's just my opinion), challenges which require a bunch of code to solve like this are more fun as the golfing can be a lot more complex/varied. Finding opportunities to shave off byte after byte until code doesn't make any obvious sense with a couple of people (like what we were doing here a few hours ago) feels fun.

geometry dash

You can get HL2 for $1, HL1 for $1, Portal for $1

orange box is $4

@Mendeleev o sheet

newgrounds.com/audio/listen/512976

E A R G A S M I C

Seriously, this sale is amazing

@Mendeleev so how much is geometry dash?

8:41 PM

@ckjbgames $1

with the summer sale

@Mendeleev YEEEEEEEEEEEE

but it's normally $4

@Mendeleev yeah. i have it on mobile. you play?

@ckjbgames Yeap, but I haven't gotten past Can't Let Go O_o

@Mendeleev rly

8:42 PM

@ckjbgames Yep

@Mendeleev what do you use for control

if your mouse is trash, use spacebar

@ckjbgames Sometimes up arrow, sometimes mouse click

My mouse is ok

@Mendeleev Use spacebar. If you need to spam click, use the mouse.

Anyone play the Google Chrome game? (Does it have a name?)

I think that theoretically (I have no way to test it), space bar is better for me

@Adám sometims

8:44 PM

so I just found out I broke the J IDE because my username has a quote in it. hypothetically I could change my username to have J code in it lol

@Adám the dinosaur one?

@totallyhuman Yes.

@ConorO'Brien lmao

@ckjbgames Spacebar is harder to press like that to me. I have an A1314 keyboard so there's that

@ConorO'Brien Link to J ide?

@Mendeleev If your mouse succs, use other controls.

8:45 PM

afaik J is ascii apl?

@ConorO'Brien That's terrible.

it's somewhere higher up in the chat

@ckjbgames I like the up arrow

@Mendeleev So does SrGuillester.

@Mendeleev code.jsoftware.com/wiki/Guides/Qt_IDE/Install

8:46 PM

my yotub is up there

@Adám Thanks

@Mendeleev Not really.

@Downgoat Hi! Haven't been here in a while; just came back today.

So uh guys the highest bountied question on SE has 3.6k in bounties

I think we need to get the GoL clock past that

@ckjbgames advertising your own things without telling anybody it's yours in the link text is spam

8:47 PM

J places a huge emphasis on tacit programming, while (Dyalog only) APL only allows it – as a relatively new feature.

2 mins ago, by ckjbgames

my yotub is up there

What does valid and invalid mean when checking spam flags?

@Adám I'm new to basically every APL style language and I have no experience with tacit programming.

Should be fun.

@Mendeleev that last message really wasn't >_>

@Mendeleev Tacit: assumed inputs AFAIK

8:49 PM

valid as in flag is correct, or valid as in the message is acceptable?

@StepHen AFAIK it means that functions are chained to pass data, instead of using variables and accessors

@Adám Scratch that, helpful means flag is correct

@Mendeleev tacit is basically code that does not reference a variable name for input

Compare explicit: Avg←{(+/⍵)÷(≢⍵)} Tacit: Avg←(+/÷≢)

@Adám I don't know APL O_o

But I can basically tell waht those do

8:52 PM

⍵ is the name of the argument.

oh

3&(+%) versus 3 + % y

oic

+/ sum of. ÷ divided by. ≢ the tally of.

@Adám Thanks

8:53 PM

@ConorO'Brien Why not 3+% ?

Yeah: Explicit: {3+÷⍵} Tacit: (3+÷)

was there a flag star-like epidemic here? I came just to see a blue circle with the digit 4 on my user name fading with no messages deleted

@Uriel Links saying "click me" and other links to YouTube.

@Adám huh?

@Uriel Someone posted (probably with good intent) a link to his YouTube channel, but the link text was just "Please click this". That got flagged as it looked like spam. This triggered the flagging of a few other YouTube links.

@Adám but I didn't post any of those

8:58 PM

@Uriel You didn't [verb missing] any of those?

@Uriel No, the blue circle asks for you to click on it so you can review flagged posts.

@Uriel Welcome to the 10K club

I accidentally 93mb of .rar files

is this dangerous

Users who have more than 10,000 rep across the SE network get to review chat flags.

@totallyhuman You accidentally [verb missing] 93mb of .rar files?

@DJMcMayhem onice

9:00 PM

What do you guys have against verbs‽

@Uriel on ice

@Adám I don't what they have against them

@Adám I don't what you're talking about

@DJMcMayhem 'd

CensoredUsername

verbs unnecessary, grammar golfing great

@CensoredUsername I don't so.

9:01 PM

@Adám oh

@Adám idk. why do you anglos use them?

DAE sometimes type a instead of 1?

@Uriel Maybe we.

→ 3 messages moved to Trash

@Adám old meme nvm me

9:02 PM

@cairdcoinheringaahing

caird coinheringaahing

Whoever did that thanks!

Well, whoever did that is pretty dumb. Star spam while an RO is present doesn't tend to last very long.

yeah and now we get a nice pinned message taking up precious starboard space

@Adám but you.

@Adám idk

9:07 PM

user image

What should I do with these?

What are they?

RGB LED strips

I had the same question once, now I don't even know where they are

About the implementation of Jelly in <insert non-python language here>, there's a Jelly atom to evaluate a string as Python. So, it would be hell for any language.

@ZacharyT Ah true. But that is probably intended to be implementation dependent, so it would evaluate string as whatever host language the implementation would be written in.

9:20 PM

Hi there

You are planning to write an implementation of Jelly using another language than Python?

@ZacharyT That being said, The old APL*PLUS system I grew up with could evaluate strings in a couple of common languages, besides for the ability to execute sints as asm.

@Jim People were saying it'd be easy as pie to write Jelly in J or APL or the like (which by and large it would be)

@Adám so if I implement Jelly in <insert a language name> I can beat "evaluate <\1>" challenges in one byte?

And there'd be monadic ↓ and ↑ everywhere, since jelly's multidimensional arrays are just nested vectors.

@ZacharyT So what? APL doesn't have to use rank instead of depth. Auto-mapping works on either. Actually, it works better on vectors of vectors.

E.g. you cannot multiply a 4 element vector with a four row matrix, but you can multiply a four element vector with a four element vector of vectors.

9:25 PM

Oh, there's one more thing (there's probably an easy APL way to do this). No int size limits.

Vector of vectors vs matrix.

I'm an idiot, I was looking at archive.org for the history of a github file

Wow.

lol

@Adám What are sints?

9:29 PM

@ZacharyT signed ints.

@Adám Don't you usually say int and uint? What's different?

@StepHen I say int and sint. Same thing as uint and int, I guess, but how do you pronounce uint?

@Adám you-int

@StepHen Sint (rhymes with mint) is much faster to say.

@Adám First language I learned was VB and it has Integer and UInteger, that's probably why I'm biased that way

9:31 PM

@StepHen I (thankfully) never had to deal with the difference.

I just overhear my C colleagues saying int and sint.

@ZacharyT Ruby: return `python -c "#{command}"`

@Mendeleev <insert look of disapproval>

@Mendeleev Well in that case, APL: ⎕SH'python -c "',,∘'"'

That requires that python is installed and can be run that way.

@ZacharyT how else do you expect to run python code without python installed 0.o

9:37 PM

@ZacharyT Jelly also requires that python is installed, no?

Yeah, but doing that would require installation of 3 languages (Jelly, Python, and Jelly implementation language)

Solemn: I pledge to never use the explicit face of disapproval that consists of two identical Kannada characters separated by a mouth-looking character.

ಠ_ಠ

why

@ZacharyT So you want to write an interpreter for one language in another, and run a third language, but without installing the third language?

No. No.

I was saying that Jelly in <non-python> would take 3 languages installed to run that way.

9:40 PM

@ZacharyT Jelly wouldn't really be "installed".

@Adám It never is AFAIK

Rather, Jelly as it is requires only one language installed. Implementing Jelly in any other language would require also having that language installed. (Except if that language was also implemented in Python, of course.)

Assuming we would implement it in a compilable language, it could be.

Can C interface to Python?

@ZacharyT Yes

@ZacharyT And a lot of Python libraries are actually C libraries (collections, …)

9:58 PM

@Riker (removed)

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