The Nineteenth Byte

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

00:00

did you escape your backslashses? :3

Downgoat

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ._.

Downgoat

00:29

I forgot how my own tokenizer functions work >_>

Quill

LOL

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

OLO

El'endia Starman

Huh. I leave for 3 hours and my last message is still on the page. Tonight's a slow night... :P

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman are you east coast? It's not night in west coast yet

Cheddar:T_REPL> var a := "foo"
undefined

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Yup.

Downgoat

00:32

I borked something bad >_>

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ O_O trump is winning

Nathan Merrill

its slow on main too

I've only gotten 5 upvotes on my new question (not asking for them)

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Downgoat ik

Nathan Merrill

@DrGreenEggsandHamDJ I always look at the breakdown of space, and its almost entirely recycling bin space.

Downgoat

anyone know good vpses that don't cost $200/month

Nathan Merrill

digital ocean?

Downgoat

00:37

@NathanMerrill yeah, I was thinking about them. but someone said they have bad ddos protection

Quill

@NathanMerrill seconded. DO are great

Downgoat

\o/ I unborked cheddar

Nathan Merrill

I don't know, but what are you doing that needs ddos protection?

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill idk, some asshole might think it's funny to just ddos me

Nathan Merrill

how about you deal with that when it happens :)

Quill

00:38

@Downgoat as long as you disable the root user you'll be fine

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

brb ddosing cheddar.vihan.org

Downgoat

@Quill ok, brb buying DO vps

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ;_; y u do dis

Quill

it's like 10$ a month

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

brb unddosing

@Downgoat pls no take cat to shelter

pls no

they has no lizard to munch

Downgoat

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ :D

quartata

00:39

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ \== is not equal to

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

ik :p

Downgoat

@quartata TIL prologs syntax is as weird as Pythons

Nathan Merrill

well, for a language as unique as prolog, its obviously going to have a weird syntax

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@quartata in prolog? o_O

Nathan Merrill

woah, apparently user-defined literals is a thing

en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/user_literal

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

00:42

@Downgoat Q_Q T_T D: P: :/ :| :I ._. .-.

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill cheddar has that too

cheddar lang is best lang

Nathan Merrill

oh, what's the syntax?

Downgoat

idk, haven't implemented it yet

Quill

@Downgoat too bad it's not the best cheese

brie cheese is best cheese

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat I learned some Prolog for a class and I think it has weirder syntax. :P

Helka Homba

00:44

@Quill Can you convince the CR gang to come and review the code of all the custom langs made by PPCG users? I want to see who has the neatest code.

Nathan Merrill

so "cheddar has that too" basically means "that sounds cool, I want to implement that"

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman weirder than """ for comments? I think not

El'endia Starman

Hmm, probably worth noting that I don't remember any of what I learned.

Quill

@NathanMerrill at least he's honest about scalping ideas

@HelkaHomba uh, no

you guys are qualified to review code too, feel free to do that yourselves

Nathan Merrill

I would totally be up for a CR of custom languages :)

Helka Homba

00:45

@Quill We can do something collectively for CR in return, like.........

idk

Quill

like don't ruin the next stackegg

ev3commander

Test tsetttest

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill well I've thought of implementing for a while now. One of the first things I wanted to do when I first made cheddar

Quill

@ev3commander C-

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat I consider that to be a side benefit. Triple quoted strings are a way to do multiline strings, and you can also use them for documentation purposes. Not assigning them to anything means that they act like multiline comments, but they weren't meant for that in the first place.

Downgoat

00:46

@Quill ಠ_ಠ

ev3commander

(@_@ಠ_ಠ()

Downgoat

@El'endiaStarman no, it's an excuse for not implementing multiline comments

just like objects are excuses for not implementing hashmaps

ev3commander

On this easterly irk's username looks like esrly ir

Helka Homba

@Quill Anime & Mangos ruined it more than we did -.-

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat I hate using objects when I need a map/sets

especially because keys have to be strings

Quill

00:47

@HelkaHomba I was around when it happened but I have no recollection of any of it

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Part of the Zen of Python is that there be (preferably) exactly one way to do things. That's probably why.

Quill

@HelkaHomba I'm only working off gossip and bitching from other people

ev3commander

Geographic Information Systems

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill uh no

also: developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Reference/…

Helka Homba

@Quill I did actually write some bots for stackegg that may have contributed to that :}

El'endia Starman

00:49

Hmm, wait, aren't Python dictionaries basically hashmaps?

Quill

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 56 secs ago, by sandwich

Because small caps are a lost art.

@HelkaHomba your bots wiped my memories of stackegg?

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat right, that's what I use now, but Map wasn't always around

IE8?

Quill

I don't use Maps. I always know where I'm going

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill what are you doing that you need IE support at all

Helka Homba

@Quill Shoot, you realized. Time to write another

Nathan Merrill

00:51

you know, companies used to require support of old IEs

Quill

@HelkaHomba can you wipe all my memories of The Nineteenth Byte when you do that

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill babel to the rescue

Nathan Merrill

was babel even around then?

Downgoat

idk

Nathan Merrill

github.com/babel/babel/graphs/contributors

looks like 2014 was when it started

Downgoat

00:54

github.com/babel/babel/commit/…

Quill

also the fact that it was an early technology back then, so not too many people used it

Downgoat

you could've also used traceur, that has been around for a while it hink

Nathan Merrill

lol, traceur's graph is pretty terrible

github.com/google/traceur-compiler/graphs/contributors

1 commit back in 2011

but then no activity for a year

Downgoat

I think the GH is just a mirror

Helka Homba

@Quill Yes. Due to amnesia you now think your name is Mr. Alexis Wong

Nathan Merrill

00:56

oh yeah?

Downgoat

idk for erusre

Nathan Merrill

oooh, google has "games to learn programming"

blockly-games.appspot.com

Downgoat

    let ATTEMPTING_THIS_BS = this.attempt(STAGES);

    if (ATTEMPTING_THIS_BS instanceof CheddarLexer) {
        CRY_BECAUSE_THEY_ARE_ALWAYS_BUGS(ATTEMPTING_THIS_BS)
    } else {
        CRY(ATTEMPTING_THIS_BS);
    }

@Quill I'm using descriptive variable names :D

Helka Homba

Bugs in you cheddar? Ew.

Downgoat

................

dammit, the pencil looks like a forward slash

Nathan Merrill

00:59

ok, back to language design. How do you deal with user-defined literals?

do you require them to be in the format of \d+[a-z]+?

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill shouldn't be too hard, just whenever you're ready to encounter an expression, check against user defined literals

Nathan Merrill

right, but how do they define them?

Downgoat

idk, in cheddar it might be like:

Nathan Merrill

I mean, if you define a list of "static" literals, that isn't flexible

Downgoat

class myliteralparser(String: Code, Number: Index) extends cheddar.parser {
    exec() {
       self.open();
       if (self.Code[self.Index] === "a") return self.add("a");
       else self.error.not_found;
    }
}
cheddar.literal(myliteralparser)

@NathanMerrill ^

Nathan Merrill

01:04

so you define a class to override the parser?

how do you parse the class?

oh, I guess that works for a dynamic language

RenderSettings

now make cheddar self-hosting

Downgoat

oh, for compiled language that's going to difficult unless maybe the parser is in a different file, and compiled with like a special flag specifying the files defining the parsers.

Nathan Merrill

well, I have to be able to tokenize everything before I parse

so, yes, all of the user defined literals would have to follow a specific syntax

that said, I'm not sure what literal you are parsing above

Downgoat

a literal "a"

Nathan Merrill

wouldn't it also parse "aaa"?

Downgoat

01:08

yeah, it would

RenderSettings

Red lets you extend the parser during compile time, and that's basically what lisp does with macros because s-exprs are literally magic

Nathan Merrill

@RenderSettings how does Red do it? Do you define macros as well (which is what Rust does as well, I believe)

Downgoat

how should optional newlines (like python has) work? Should something like this be valid syntax:

2 +
2;

should that parse as 2+ and 2; or 2+2;

Nathan Merrill

so you are doing optional new lines?

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

2 + 2;

Downgoat

01:11

@NathanMerrill yeah

what about:

Helka Homba

@RenderSettings Until I zoomed I thought your avatar was Gumby :I

Downgoat

a := 3
-2

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

a =: 3 - 2

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat if you do auto-concat lines, don't make the mistake of auto-concat adjacent string literals

RenderSettings

@NathanMerrill You define AST passes, I think. Never actually used Red or looked at it that hard, but I know it does it

Downgoat

01:12

O_o

what why

RenderSettings

@HelkaHomba Sorry to disappoint :( It's blue, though, not green?

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

in Mos Eisley, 25 secs ago, by Rand al'Thor

PhiNotPi

I wrote some music just now: soundcloud.com/phinotpi/windsb The underlying rhythm kinda reminds me of Duel of the Fates.

Nathan Merrill

@Downgoat I'm not sure whether you are in favor or not of string literals, but I've had several bugs (one today), where I forgot a comma or such, and it combined strings on seperate lines

Downgoat

@NathanMerrill O_o what language does that?

that's dumb

Nathan Merrill

01:14

python

Downgoat

of course

O_O python actually does that

Maltysen

@Downgoat c

trichoplax

Is that when enclosed in parentheses/brackets/braces or triple quotes?

Helka Homba

@Downgoat Treat newline like semicolons. The convenience it brings outweighs the impurity

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

@NathanMerrill wait.. so "asdf" "asdf" => "asdfasdf"?

Nathan Merrill

01:16

yes

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ in python

El'endia Starman

@Downgoat Yes. Supposedly it's useful for building up long strings, but I've never used that feature.

Nathan Merrill

Guido actually wants it removed

mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2013-May/020527.html

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

that's a terrible idea

Maltysen

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ and c

Downgoat

01:16

^^

Maltysen

c it made sense cuz of 80 char limit

trichoplax

implicit concatenation - when would that not be useful?

Downgoat

@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ but it's python so what did you expect :/

Cᴏɴᴏʀ O'Bʀɪᴇɴ

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Downgoat next time ping me when you edit the installscript, it didn't this time. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Downgoat

01:17

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ ok

trichoplax

Never sure if my sarcasm comes across

Helka Homba

@PhiNotPi It says "11 minutes" in the corner of the track frame but the song is 1:52. Whats the 11 for?

Nathan Merrill

it is the internet

PhiNotPi

@HelkaHomba Time since posting.

trichoplax

@HelkaHomba That's funny, mine says 13 minutes...

Helka Homba

01:18

Ah.

trichoplax

Oh - makes sense now :)

Helka Homba

It really should say "Posted X minutes ago" or "X minutes old" @Soundcloud -.-

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@Downgoat thanks

Downgoat

np

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

@PhiNotPi 10/10 epic music

PhiNotPi

01:22

@EᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏIʀᴋ thanks

Eᴀsᴛᴇʀʟʏ Iʀᴋ

welcome

trichoplax

Does anyone have any more feedback on Mean bits before I post it to main? I'm thinking I'll go with not banning any builtins and let people use whatever approach suits their language

Downgoat

@trichoplax My first thought was that challenge was about Geobit's evil/mean twin from a parallel universe.

4

Geobits

Feedback on the challenge itself, or on the appropriateness of the title?

trichoplax

@Geobits The former, which includes the latter

Geobits

01:24

@Downgoat Oh good. That means you think my twin is the evil one.

trichoplax

Do you have a suggestion for a less appropriate title?

PhiNotPi

I rate 4/20 title, keep it like that.

Downgoat

@Geobits I'm assuming Marky is your twin

Helka Homba

@trichoplax What defines a "significant figure"? (Not that important imo but people can be fussy)

Geobits

@Downgoat Marky isn't my twin. More like an experiment gone wrong. Or right, rather.

trichoplax

01:25

@HelkaHomba I've never thought of that as unambiguous. Maybe I should link to a definition

Helka Homba

@Geobits Did Marky die? chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/29802267#29802267

Geobits

He's in power-saving mode right now. He ran out of fresh goats, so I wanted to conserve his remaining energy. I can bring him back up if you bring him some lunch.

Maltysen

@Downgoat time to sacrifice your demon-spawn ^

Downgoat

@Maltysen sorry, upgrading his brain atm

Geobits

Oh, you know who knows a thing or two about goat brains?

Marky.

He likes them chilled.

Helka Homba

01:29

@Geobits 🍆🍣🍼🍠 <- full meal right there

trichoplax

Significant figures

The significant figures of a number are digits that carry meaning contributing to its measurement resolution. This includes all digits except: All leading zeros; Trailing zeros when they are merely placeholders to indicate the scale of the number (exact rules are explained at identifying significant figures); and Spurious digits introduced, for example, by calculations carried out to greater precision than that of the original data, or measurements reported to a greater precision than the equipment supports. Significance arithmetic are approximate rules for roughly maintaining significance throughout...

Downgoat

@Geobits okay, fine, here you go: 🐐🐐🐐. These goats are accompanying him for lunch, right?

El'endia Starman

Rivalry of the century: Marky vs. Chatgoat.

trichoplax

@HelkaHomba having had a look at Wikipedia it seems there's more to it that I'd realised

Geobits

@Downgoat Umm, yes. That's it. He's having them over for lunch.

Downgoat

01:31

okay.... …–Ú

trichoplax

I just wanted to mean "this many digits must be accurate"

Maltysen

@Geobits over some rice, that is ;P

Helka Homba

@trichoplax Oh, sig figs. Thought you meant Unicode food :P

trichoplax

@HelkaHomba Lol - a lot more chat happened while I was copying and pasting the Wikipedia link than I expected...

Geobits

in The Block, 11 secs ago, by Marky Markov

Reading model parameters from train_simple_512_2/translate.ckpt-145500

Downgoat

01:33

@Geobits oh shit

Helka Homba

@trichoplax Since mousing over your non-specific reply message only highlights my last message. Hrm..

Downgoat

brb hiding chatgoat in the closet

PhiNotPi

I'm reposting my Random Survey du Jour to gather more than 4 responses: strawpoll.me/10303445

Geobits

s/hiding/locking away/

trichoplax

@HelkaHomba Yeah - I usually try to avoid that...

@PhiNotPi Is that anything like "You now have The Final Countdown playing in your head"?

Maltysen

01:34

@PhiNotPi what are bodily awareness memes?

Geobits

@PhiNotPi I have no idea what that means o_O

Oh, so like this?

PhiNotPi

Here's an example: someone would say "you are now manually breathing," and it causes you to become self-conscious of your breathing and have to consciously control it.

Geobits

Ah. Some do I guess. Others not. How should I answer?

Helka Homba

Predict-a-poll: strawpoll.me/10304377

PhiNotPi

Actually, I'm not referring to the "reading this in my voice" or "final countdown" memes.

Geobits

01:36

Hmm. They seem like the same sort of thing to me, no?

Nathan Merrill

Ok, going back to user-defined literals. I can think of a couple of possible wants: Bases:0xFFFF, Units: 5lb, Complex numbers: 3i

Geobits

I guess it'd be more "mind awareness", like "don't think about pink elephants".

Nathan Merrill

it looks like every user defined literal starts with a number, then a letter

Helka Homba

@PhiNotPi "You are now thinking about bunnies driving cars"

Nathan Merrill

are there any other possible literals people might realistically want?

PhiNotPi

01:38

@Geobits They are related, but I was trying to focus on things that deal with voluntary/involuntary muscle movements.

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill decimals numbers where you don't have to specify a base

PhiNotPi

(If you can see the common theme for these past 2 days.)

Nathan Merrill

@Maltysen what would that look like?

El'endia Starman

@PhiNotPi This used to have a bigger effect on me, but I'm getting better at noticing such things and ignoring them.

Nathan Merrill

and how does that even work?

Maltysen

01:39

@NathanMerrill 1208129

a normal number

Geobits

@PhiNotPi I'm not sure I've seen those commonly enough to know if I'm affected then.

Nathan Merrill

@Maltysen so base 10?

trichoplax

@PhiNotPi I knew, it was just a great excuse...

El'endia Starman

Like, I was/am breathing kinda half-manually.

Nathan Merrill

that's a builtin literal

Maltysen

01:39

@NathanMerrill yeah, "decimal"==base 10

Nathan Merrill

oh my bad

Maltysen

@NathanMerrill just making sure you have those

Nathan Merrill

I'm not planning on implementing the above

I'm considering making user-defined literals a thing

Helka Homba

2 winners: strawpoll.me/10304377/r

Maltysen

@HelkaHomba \o/ that was me

Nathan Merrill

01:41

woops

Helka Homba

@Maltysen oop, nevermind

El'endia Starman

Woo I won with 7 too!

Geobits

Wait, what? I picked seven...

It was the first one cast.

PhiNotPi

@HelkaHomba I wouldn't have included 0, it's obviously impossible for that to be the case, and messes up the numbering.

trichoplax

@HelkaHomba Once it hits 10 there are going to be lots of winners...

Nathan Merrill

01:43

@PhiNotPi if I choose not to vote, does that count as a vote for 0?

PhiNotPi

@NathanMerrill no (maybe?)

trichoplax

Counts as zero votes. The vote count for zero has not increased :P

PhiNotPi

PS. I would like to thank you all for your tolerance of me posting a bunch of random psychology/neuroscience-related strawpolls over the past couple days.

Maltysen

@PhiNotPi thanks for showing me ear-popping techniques. I enjoyed experimenting with them

trichoplax

I haven't noticed a significant increase in the background strawpoll levels

PhiNotPi

01:50

Just like most things I do, I will probably continue until I find a more interesting topic.

Helka Homba

in The Block, 47 secs ago, by Marky Markov

@Geobits you want me to come?

in The Block, 38 secs ago, by Marky Markov

@Geobits how many time?

Downgoat

@HelkaHomba ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Nathan Merrill

I'm still waiting for somebody to vote and make my vote correct

Maltysen

@HelkaHomba at least its making psuedo-gramatically-correct sentences now

trichoplax

I decided not to worry about defining significant figures - I'll add something if anyone gets into an argument over interpretation

Nathan Merrill

01:58

oooh, I thought of another potential use case for literals: Dates

4/30/2015

hmm, that doesn't work

trichoplax

That's a horrible date format

Nathan Merrill

would you prefer 30/4/2015?

trichoplax

How about 30/04/2015?

Nathan Merrill

yeah, dates is a huge mess of formatting

trichoplax

@NathanMerrill Yes that's not so bad :)

Ideally 2015/04/30

Nathan Merrill

01:59

but even then, 30/04/2015 is ambiguous with actual math

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