The Nineteenth Byte

Anonymous

8:00 AM

@KennyLau "Better" is an ambiguous term. Stack-based languages have a major advantage over traditional languages in terms of code golf.

Kenny Lau

@Mego How so?

Anonymous

@KennyLau With traditional languages, there's a lot of infix notation, which requires an order of operations and some notation for associativity/grouping (usually parentheses). Stack-based languages (and Pyth, though it's not stack-based) do away with that by being either postfix (more common) or prefix. With those, you just read off data and instructions and execute them in order. (1*2)+(3*4) is longer than 12*34*+ (postfix) or +*12*34 (prefix).

Kenny Lau

@mego In that case, I'm comparing, you know Pyth, and Actually, in terms of using stacks or not

Because the items in stacks are often disposed after one use

so you frequently need to duplicate them

And also in traditional stacks, you can't look further down than the third item

Anonymous

The underlying data structure in Seriously and Actually is a random-access list, but all the commands (except for a few special ones) get their arguments by popping and return their results by pushing

Anonymous

And yes, while there is a need to duplicate items because popping is a destructive operation, if it wasn't destructive, then there would be a lot more explicit discarding than there is duplicating with the destructive pop

Kenny Lau

8:10 AM

@Mego and in non-stacks, this dilemma is resolved: you neither "duplicate then destroy" nor "not duplicate then discard".

because the operations in stack-based languages (SBLs) only apply to the first 2 items.

Anonymous

@KennyLau That's only true if you limit the language to unary and binary operations.

Kenny Lau

@Mego Well, take + as an example.

How would you add the 2nd and the 3rd item in your beautiful stack?

Anonymous

It depends - how do you want the stack to look after the operation?

Kenny Lau

I just want to keep the 1st item. I don't care about the other details

Mars Ultor

@KennyLau You mean top 2

Anonymous

8:13 AM

Do you want it to still be top of stack after the operation?

Kenny Lau

@MarsUltor I'm not seeing the difference.

Anonymous

If so, then in Seriously/Actually, it's )+(

Mars Ultor

@KennyLau It's usually stored as the last two

Kenny Lau

oh ok

@Mego For example, I would like to calculate A*(B+C) in Actually

Anonymous

@KennyLau )+*

Kenny Lau

8:15 AM

What about A+B*(C+D)?

Anonymous

))+*(+

Kenny Lau

And what if I Actually™ have 5 items in the stack?

Actually---TM---

Mars Ultor

Oh wait

That's for <s>

Anonymous

@KennyLau That code works as long as there are at least 4 items on the stack, and the top 4 are numerics

Kenny Lau

Actually TM

Mars Ultor

8:18 AM

@KennyLau Windows?

Kenny Lau

@MarsUltor ?

Mars Ultor

Are you on windows?

Kenny Lau

yes?

@Mego How does it work?

Anonymous

Actually I messed it up

Anonymous

))+(*(+

Kenny Lau

8:19 AM

Pyth: +*+CDBA (7 bytes)

Anonymous

) pops the top item off and pushes it to the bottom of the stack, ( does the reverse

Kenny Lau

so we're even xd

What about A + (B * (C + (D * E)))?

Anonymous

+)+*(*

Mars Ultor

fsymbols.com/keyboard/windows/layouts may make it easier to type weird symbols

Anonymous

a*+*+

Anonymous

8:21 AM

a inverts the stack

Kenny Lau

@MarsUltor Thanks xd

@Mego Again, it is assumed that I have 100 items in the stack

Anonymous

In that case, 5╟Ri+*+* will work, but I'm not sure that it's the shortest way

Anonymous

5╟ takes the top 5 elements and pushes a list containing those elements, R reverses the list, and i flattens the list (pushes each element from the list)

Kenny Lau

nice...

let's compare it with the version in Pyth...

Pyth: +A*B+C*DE (9 bytes)

looks like you won :)

Anonymous

So it's 1 shorter than Pyth :P

Anonymous

8:26 AM

You see, the point of me making Seriously and Actually wasn't to try to make a language which had the shortest solution to every code golf challenge. I just wanted to make a golfing language that I liked, that made sense to me, and that did moderately well on code golf challenges.

Anonymous

It was more of a learning exercise than anything else

Kenny Lau

(y)

By the way, all the characters beyond \u80 looks the same to me here: raw.githubusercontent.com/Mego/Seriously/master/commands.txt

(they all got rendered as \uFFFD, even when I switch to different encodings)

Anonymous

That would be because GitHub thinks it's UTF-8 when it's actually CP437. Look at the v2 branch's version

Easterly Irk

^^

Kenny Lau

Nice

Would you consider adding commands like "prime factor" and "factor" xd

Anonymous

8:29 AM

Look at w

Anonymous

And y

Kenny Lau

But no 20 -> [1,2,4,5,10,20]?

zyabin101

Now that Actually is released, I have to search existing Seriously answers and mention if they work with Actually.

Anonymous

I could add that. The equivalent code would be ";╗R;╜%Y@░" (can't do backticks in code formatting)

zyabin101

If they don't, I get more work making it work with Actually.

Anonymous

8:34 AM

@zyabin101 Almost all of them will. Only cases where unprintables or one of the few commands that got reassigned are used will have issues.

zyabin101

Ahh.

Kenny Lau

@Mego How do I do "while len(stack): A"?

Anonymous

@KennyLau example

Anonymous

@KennyLau ` WXA `

Anonymous

(spaces are important and should be there)

Kenny Lau

8:36 AM

...

it implicitly executes?

Anonymous

What do you mean?

Kenny Lau

I thought it would just push a function onto the stack

without executing it

Easterly Irk

@zyabin101 what time is it for you?

Anonymous

Nope

Anonymous

While loops are basically the only part of the language that doesn't fit with the rest

zyabin101

8:38 AM

@EasterlyIrk 11:38 here.

Kenny Lau

@Mego Doesn't seem working

actually.tryitonline.net/#code=YCBXWFhg&input=ImEiCiJiIg

Anonymous

@zyabin101 Please don't go through and leave comments on all of my Seriously answers about how they'd be shorter in Actually. I'm very aware. They are two different languages, though.

Anonymous

@KennyLau The backticks weren't part of the code

Anonymous

actually.tryitonline.net/#code=IFdYWCA&input=ImEiCiJiIg

Anonymous

Note that the 0 at the end is because the last len(stack) never gets removed

Anonymous

8:40 AM

actually.tryitonline.net/#code=IFdYIFdY&input=ImEiCiJiIg is more correct

Kenny Lau

actually.tryitonline.net/#code=IFdYWA&input=ImEiCiJiIg

Why do you need WX again?

Anonymous

Space pushes len(stack). The W...W part runs the inside code while the top of the stack is truthy. It doesn't pop from the stack, though, so you need X to get rid of the condition value.

Kenny Lau

Wait...

Could you translate "<space>WX WX" to any traditional language?

Anonymous

stack.push(len(stack))
while stack.peek():
  stack.pop()
  stack.push(len(stack))
stack.pop()

Kenny Lau

And "<space>WXX"?

Anonymous

8:45 AM

stack.push(len(stack))
while stack.peek():
  stack.pop()
  stack.pop()

Kenny Lau

Well, but in " WX WX" aren't you only popping the length each time?

Anonymous

Yes, hence why you would put the code you want run each loop between the first X and the second space

Anonymous

Like ` WX. WX`

Kenny Lau

I see.

Well, the standard golfed version would not be " WXX WX", but... (drumroll)

é

Easterly Irk

@zyabin101 am or pm?

zyabin101

8:49 AM

@EasterlyIrk AM.

Easterly Irk

nice

Anonymous

é, kX, and ` WXX WX` all work

Easterly Irk

1:50am here. :P

wtf am i doing

Kenny Lau

@Mego How would you pop the entire stack save the top?

Anonymous

3:50 AM, have to be up in ~4.5 hours

Easterly Irk

8:50 AM

go to bed

10/10 genius idea

Anonymous

@KennyLau ╗é╜

Anonymous

@EasterlyIrk Insomnia's a bitch

Kenny Lau

register...

Easterly Irk

@Mego ikr

brb getting caffeine to crash hard on

will chug and go to bed

bai for the night!

Anonymous

That's not how caffeine works

Easterly Irk

8:52 AM

If i come back tell me to go to sleep. BAI

Anonymous

I'm also gonna try to go to sleep

Easterly Irk

@Mego for me yeah. I had so much today more will push me over. :P

@Mego night

BAI

Anonymous

@KennyLau If you want to discuss Seriously and Actually more, leave some questions in the Seriously chat room and I'll answer them when I can

Mars Ultor

Yesterday I slept early (for me, that's 12pm) to make sure I didn't miss GCJ

zyabin101

9:08 AM

Because of a closed pull request, I lost my Seriously fork's v2 branch X(

flawr

9:28 AM

@AlexA. Just got Christmas in the mail. It's like Christmas=)

mınxomaτ

9:39 AM

The newest Windows 10 build keeps installing Candy Crush without asking. >:(

flawr

@orlp It feels somewhat unfinished.

PS: Google is releasing a Machine Learning class on youtube.

mınxomaτ

> Many users have spotted that Windows 10 downloads and installs some games and apps automatically. Without the user even opening the Store, or asking for his or her permission, the operating system installs some apps like Candy Crush Soda Saga, Minecraft: Windows 10 edition, Flipboard, Twitter and some other apps. This is definitely unwanted behavior for most users because they never requested these apps.

>:U

flawr

Unwanted bloatware seems to be a disease spreading in the current generation of consumer electronics.

mınxomaτ

The funny thing is that I'm using Windows 10 Enterprise. Why would you want to have Candy Crush on your work PC? It's a terrible game, too!

zyabin101

@mınxomaτ These apps would never be able to be deleted, I think.

mınxomaτ

9:46 AM

@zyabin101 No, of course you can uninstall them

zyabin101

@mınxomaτ But they will eventually return.

flawr

@mınxomaτ Well they want the employees to refrain from playing games.

mınxomaτ

@zyabin101 Not if you disable "CloudConnect" in Windows.

zyabin101

@mınxomaτ \o/

flawr

> No thanks to Black Sabbath for stealin our shit!

Are they serious?

zyabin101

10:06 AM

@Mego What will Seriously v3 be called?

PhiNotPi

11:47 AM

@zyabin101 Super Seriously?

zyabin101

@PhiNotPi Absolutely.

(That's a name.)

But obviously not Obviously, because I allocated that name first for my esolang.

> obviously not Obviously

lol, a pun.

PhiNotPi

Does that even count as a pun?

flawr

> Yeah let's allocate every english word as a name for a future esolang.

PhiNotPi

12:21 PM

So, I was looking over the rules for the AI programming competition today...

Nathan Merrill

Reading up on Go, it has a defer keyword, which defers the execution of a function until after the function returns

PhiNotPi

And I found a very vague phrase on the website

Nathan Merrill

that's way cool

PhiNotPi

@NathanMerrill what does that mean?

> You are welcome to run several instances of your bots at the same time, and more generally to use any measure you see fit to achieve leaderboard domination. Fight!

^ the phrase I was talking about

Nathan Merrill

myFunc(){
    f = file.open();
    defer f.close();
    do other stuff;
}

PhiNotPi

12:24 PM

Okay, neat. I was thinking the two uses of the word "function" were referring to the same thing.

Nathan Merrill

when myFunc returns, f will automatically close

ah :)

PhiNotPi

If I were to go "full PPCG" on that AI competition, I could probably win.

zyabin101

@PhiNotPi Oh! I've seen that website.

I'm currently viewing a game.

It's two bots zuborg vs two bots MiniMe.

Nathan Merrill

@PhiNotPi I'm not sure if the "multiple instances" makes things hackable

zyabin101

And I think one of zuborg will win.

Nathan Merrill

12:32 PM

because game sizes are fixed

zyabin101

Right now, I'm at move 295, and I don't know how to load more moves.

PhiNotPi

12:46 PM

@zyabin101 If it freezes after a certain number of moves, then I think there's not any more.

Sherlock9

1:14 PM

Found this question on the History of Science and Mathematics. Anyone here got an answer?

3

Q: What was the first programming language that implemented hash maps / dictionaries as a base type?

I'm having a discussion elsewhere about this. I suspect that it was Perl, with the hash maps, but that is because I don't know much about older languages rather than any exhaustive research on the matter. The wikipedia article says that the data structure was invented in 1953, so it is plausible ...

computer-science

zyabin101

1:32 PM

@MarsUltor Why is there an untitled document in github.com/somebody1234/GCJ?

New Main Posts

1:44 PM

0

Q: MOST obfuscated INFINITE loop!

SIMPLE RULES : write a code that goes in an INFINITE LOOP. The code should be OBFUSCATED. This is a popularity-contest. Also disclose and proof the secret obfuscation with these

popularity-contest obfuscation

quartata

I'm pretty sure it was Perl but I could be wrong.

zyabin101

@NewMainPosts Technically I don't give any vtc-plz but NO CAPS SOLVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH QUESTIONS.

Well, let the community decide.

Luis Mendo

2:44 PM

Congrats on 10k, @Adnan!!

quartata

!

10k in 5 months

Martin Büttner

The little ones grow up so fast. ;-;

quartata

dam

Luis Mendo

Five months? I hadn't noticed that

quartata

Adnan posted his/her first question in November I think.

Meanwhile I've gotten 6k in 6 months. I should pick up the pace

zyabin101

2:58 PM

@quartata son

Kenny Lau

How would I find out the chatroom of a community in stackexchange?

quartata

Go to the site, hit StackExchange -> chat and pick the one that says general discussion for....

TNB is dangerously distracting. I just almost poured orange juice instead of milk in my cereal

Easterly Irk

rofl

Dennis

@quartata Still yummy.

quartata

I wonder what that would taste like, actually.

Dennis

3:02 PM

I like it.

Easterly Irk

try it, you'll totally like it,

aditsu

avocad is better

quartata

I would totally drink avocado juice if I could acquire some.

aditsu

you just have to juic it

Easterly Irk

^

quartata

3:05 PM

easier said than done

Easterly Irk

and no drink avocado juic drink avocad juic

aditsu

(in reality, I kinda dislike avocados)

zyabin101

guide for how juic avocad

quartata

I'm noticing a trend here of only west coast people actually liking avocados

Easterly Irk

D:

avocad is amazing all should liek

aditsu

3:09 PM

guacamole is not bad, in small quantities

quartata

You live in Hong Kong, right? Probably difficult to get good avocados

Sherlock9

Don't avocados grow in the tropics?

aditsu

not that difficult

Sherlock9

Getting "jus alpukat" is reasonably easy in Indonesia

Kenny Lau

@aditsu You live in Hong Kong?!

aditsu

3:13 PM

yeah

Kenny Lau

:o

Sherlock9

The Indonesian drink "jus alpukat" literally translates to avocado juice, by the way. Other fruit juices are similar. Guess what "jus stroberi" is? :P

Kenny Lau

The world is small

Sherlock9

Kenny are you in Hong Kong as well

aditsu

@Sherlock9 is it apple juice? ^_^

zyabin101

3:15 PM

@Sherlock9 Juice strawberry.

Easterly Irk

^

Sherlock9

@aditsu Maybe

Kenny Lau

@Sherlock9 Yes. I am also from Hong Kong.

Sherlock9

@zyabin101 Yes

Martin Büttner

@KennyLau Hong Kong is big...

zyabin101

3:16 PM

:-)

aditsu

in Cantonese they pronounce it something like si-to-be-lei

Kenny Lau

@aditsu So you are from Hong Kong as well..

aditsu

I'm not from HK, but I live here

I come from Romania

Sherlock9

@aditsu Sounds about right :D Spoken fast it sounds good

Kenny Lau

@aditsu I see. But you understand Cantonese?

aditsu

3:17 PM

@KennyLau siu-siu

Sherlock9

He's asking if you can tonese

Kenny Lau

@Sherlock9 :p

@aditsu I see

Martin Büttner

@Sherlock9 I can't onese.

Kenny Lau

@aditsu So your native language is Romanian?

Sherlock9

@MartinBüttner :D

Kenny Lau

3:18 PM

@MartinBüttner :p

aditsu

@KennyLau yep

Sherlock9

My first language is English, which is not quite helpful when trying to communicate with Indonesians here

Kenny Lau

@aditsu Well, I know a few Romance languages, but Romanian's spelling is too different from them xd

@aditsu Comprendes tú español escrito?

Adnan

@LuisMendo Thank you!! :)

aditsu

@KennyLau I mostly understand stuff due to similarity, but many words are different

Sherlock9

3:20 PM

And some of the other students at the university come from parts of Indonesia where their first language is the local one and they sort of learned Bahasa Indonesia in school. So I speak mostly English, and they could speak mostly Manadonese, but we have to fumble through Indonesian

Kenny Lau

@aditsu Romanian is technically a Romance language, but it has been heavily influenced by Slavic languages...

Easterly Irk

@Sherlock9 rofl

aditsu

@Sherlock9 well, Cantonese is a tonal language, so maybe you can call it "tonese" :p

Sherlock9

@aditsu XD

Kenny Lau

@aditsu Do you use a word similar to "comprender" or "entender" for "understand"?

:p

aditsu

3:21 PM

@KennyLau it's still similar to Latin in many ways, perhaps more than some other Romance languages

Kenny Lau

so si-to-be-lei is actualy si_ to` be` lei/

@aditsu How do you say "understand"?

aditsu

@KennyLau not normally, but we have words like "incomprehensibil"

@KennyLau to understand = a înțelege

Kenny Lau

Romanian doesn't have a word for "understand"?

Easterly Irk

Anybody wanna register ninja.ninja?

Sherlock9

The diversity of cultures in Indonesia is like if the US had English as the main language of the nation, but each region had their own separate language, (rather than just a dialect)

Kenny Lau

3:23 PM

@aditsu I see. intellegere... completely not used in Spanish or French.

aditsu

@KennyLau it does, but it's not similar to those

Kenny Lau

Must have been borrowed from Latin

Easterly Irk

for one domain name....

Sherlock9

Like if the Southwest, California and Texas still (to a larger extent) spoke Spanish, or sections of the Northeast and the Louisiana Purchase spoke French, or if even a few of the thousands of Native American languages were still being widely spoken (which is probably the most like what it's like in Indonesia)

Kenny Lau

@aditsu But the soundshift from t to ț is interesting enough

In English it only happens before an r. In French and Spanish it doesn't happen at all...

Sherlock9

3:26 PM

We have words in Indonesian like "mengerti" or "understand", where we don't use the "root" word, or one does not exist in the formal language. We just change the prefixes and suffixes

Ah, my example was faulty. The root word exists, "erti", but I have never heard that used before

Kenny Lau

what would "meng" mean? Between?

Sherlock9

"me" is the verb form. Changes it into a verb

Kenny Lau

and "ng"?

Sherlock9

"pe" at the beginning and "an" at the end changes it to a group noun. "pengertian" is something like "knowledge"

aditsu

funny enough, one Cantonese word for "understand" sounds like "meng"

Sherlock9

3:28 PM

@KennyLau Bridges the prefix and the root

Kenny Lau

@aditsu ming-baak :)

Sherlock9

"memahami" from "paham" also meaning understand

Kenny Lau

@aditsu Or the one-word form ming

aditsu

@KennyLau right, similar

Kenny Lau

yep

Sherlock9

3:29 PM

"melatih" directly from "latihan" or practice

Kenny Lau

@Sherlock9 me+nasal...

Sherlock9

nasal?

Kenny Lau

*menpaham -> memahami or the like

*menerti -> mengerti or the like

Sherlock9

Right, but it usually starts with "me" and works from there

Kenny Lau

I see

zyabin101

3:31 PM

@EasterlyIrk ninja.ninja is a premium domain. 8 580 000 roubles for just one domain name facepalm

Kenny Lau

sorry I'm just too interested in linguistics xd

sad to see the linguistics chatroom is literally abandoned

zyabin101

8580000 roubles equals $129910.64, by the way.

Sherlock9

This is a page of the official dictionary. Obviously it's all in Indonesian, but look at all the affixes :D kbbi.web.id/atur

"atur" means "arrange"

Easterly Irk

@zyabin101 ikr

Kenny Lau

I see

Easterly Irk

3:32 PM

woah it's over 9000 roubles

and almost over 9000K roubles

zyabin101

Over $90000 ---(O_O)---

Kenny Lau

@Sherlock9 Well I don't understand a word xd

Sherlock9

"atur", "beratur", "beraturan", "mengatur", "mengaturkan", "teratur", "keteraturan", "aturan", "peraturan", "pengatur", "pengaturan"

aditsu

orangutan

Sherlock9

first two are "arrange neatly", then "in a neat arrangement", "arrange neatly" again, "to arrange neatly", "clean", "an activity of cleaning or arranging neatly", "the results of said arranging", "rules or laws", "they who arrange", "process of arranging"

Easterly Irk

3:36 PM

majik wurds

Sherlock9

Basically lots of grammar

That I did not translate nearly well enough

Sorry about that :$

Kenny Lau

So basically peN is the noun-former

meN is the verb-former

Sherlock9

Yep

terN is an adjective-former, I believe

Kenny Lau

-an is gerund (action of verb)

terN?

Why the N?

does it affect other verbs as well xd

zyabin101

@EasterlyIrk Most name mesh ninjas were all sold. Most of them remaining were in the Mix section.

Sherlock9

3:40 PM

@KennyLau You said N, I was following your syntax

meN then peN, then I used terN

Kenny Lau

@Sherlock9 I see. The N says that it makes the following sounds like n (like p -> m)

so historically it should have an "n" there

Sherlock9

Ah, that I thought that was a placeholder for the rest of the word

Kenny Lau

:p

I like analyzing languages

TheNumberOne

I just learned that @aditsu used SQL (among many other languages) for the qualification round of google code jam.

zyabin101

@EasterlyIrk ninjenga.com is available! Source

aditsu

3:43 PM

^_^

Easterly Irk

^_^

zyabin101

Also, does someone here know where Mars Ultor went? He didn't reply to my pings.

Kenny Lau

@Sherlock9 Any more word with ter-?

zyabin101

^_^

RenderSettings

I don't get codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/71172/… :( Why does it remove "Hello" from the integer testcase, and why is "5"not counted as an int, but the only string cases is fine?

aditsu

3:48 PM

@TheNumberOne not my first time to use SQL, but it was my first time to use Haskell

@KennyLau so, I live in Tai Po, what about you?

@aditsu Tsing Yi

quite far

Sure

@RenderSettings "Hello" and "5" are technically strings