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4:06 PM
Focus group time again.
in pl, 22 secs ago, by Aqua Tart
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2_   ! " # $ % & ' ( ) * + , - . /
3_ 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 : ; < = > ?
4_ @ A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O
5_ P Q R S T U V W X Y Z [ \ ] ^ _
6_ ` a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o
7_ p q r s t u v w x y z { | } ~ ∅
8_ Ա Բ Գ Դ Ե Զ Է Ը Թ Ժ Ի Լ Խ Ծ Կ Հ
9_ Ձ Ղ Ճ Մ Յ Ն Շ Ո Չ Պ Ջ Ռ Ս Վ Տ Ր
a_ Ց Ւ Փ Ք Օ Ֆ ա բ գ դ ե զ է ը թ ժ
b_ ի լ խ ծ կ հ ձ ղ ճ մ յ ն շ ո չ պ
c_ ջ ռ ս վ տ ր ց ւ փ ք օ ֆ և ► ◄ ↕
d_ © ® ¤ ¼ ½ ¾ ⌂ ≔ ™ Œ œ × … ˆ ⁿ °
(click on the link to see the full code page)
Can everyone see these?
(20 is supposed to be a space before you ask)
 
@AquaTart Erm... Me only. Nope. No.
 
@AquaTart ninja'd
 
@AquaTart I can see them.
 
OK, good.
 
@AquaTart They all seem to show properly, even on my phone.
 
4:09 PM
But they are not monospace.
 
@Dennis Awesome
 
hmmm...question: Say I write a golfing language that is 1 to 1 with python (or any other language).
it's technically valid, but people wouldn't like it
 
@NathanMerrill Golflua is 1 to 1 with Lua and I haven't seen people complain about it
Same with goruby
And some of the JSGLs
 
but lets say I also write an interpreter that converts Python into my golfing language
so I can go both ways
therefore, can I write python, but score it in my golfing language?
 
I feel like I'm missing context.
 
4:13 PM
Ok, I asked this a while back, but I'll ask it again
lets say I make a language that consists of 256 emoji
 
>.<
 
many of the emoji have multiple bytes
but, you can also use the 256 ascii characters instead
and my interpreter simply converts the emoji into ascii before it interprets it
 
(There are only 128 ASCII characters.)
 
oh, my bad
assume I've been using 128 the entire time :)
 
I feel like...
Score based on golf language
Answer written in golf language
Explanation written in Python
... would be acceptable but...
Score based on golf language
Answer written in Python
... would be unnaceptable. Just my opinion.
 
4:16 PM
if I coded in emoji, and I used 67 emoji, would you still score it as 67 bytes?
 
@NathanMerrill No need to waste the upper 128. Just convert them to bytes. I'm just nitpicking because they're not ASCII.
 
ah ok
 
Screw daylight savings time. I have no issue getting up at the new 7:00 AM - that took two days to gets accustomed to - but I am so hungry every day by the time the new 12:00 PM rolls around.
 
@NathanMerrill It's pretty simple: If there's a way to pass a 67-byte file to your interpreter to do what you want, your score is 67 bytes. Whether you invent a code page that displays these 67 bytes as emojis should not affect the byte count.
This is pretty much what I did for Jelly.
 
@Dennis I thought you did magic?
 
4:19 PM
but I'm not "displaying" the code as emoji
I'm using it as the code, and some of the emojis are multiple bytes
 
5 mins ago, by Nathan Merrill
but, you can also use the 256 ascii characters instead
That's what a code page is.
 
You're basically defining a new character encoding.
This byte = this emoji
 
then, where is the line? Why is my python example invalid?
Say I make a code page for python
but map python tokens to single bytes
 
That's fine.
Although you could just use Pyth and save yourself the trouble.
 
Which of the following two questions are you asking? I can't keep up.
1. Can I write in one language, but score it in my golfing language?
2. Can I write in emojis, and have each emoji count as one byte?
 
4:23 PM
they are the same question
 
No, they aren't
 
No they're not
 
@NathanMerrill Doing that doesn't make your answer invalid, but it might attract downvotes. There is no hard line for downvotes. They're a personal choice.
 
@Rainbolt wow, I got rekt
 
o/ from San Francisco
 
4:23 PM
@Doorknob \o
 
@AquaTart We used different contractions tho
 
@Doorknob \o@ Have a cinnamon roll.
 
@Doorknob o/ from Russia
 
@Rainbolt they'ren't
 
@Dennis Did you mean cinnamon role?
 
4:24 PM
@Doorknob Hopefully you can get some good avocads now
 
@Doorknob th'r'n't
 
how juic cinnamon role
 
@zyabin101theHated I most certainly did not.
 
@TimmyD why don't we just go the whole way with t't
 
@Dennis So you are saying that writing a python answer, scoring it in my 1-to-1 code page is technically valid, but people will downvote it?
 
4:25 PM
i try for thirtee minuts but no juic
 
Sorry that was innapropriate
 
@NathanMerrill You can try to pass it as a tokenized language if you want to. Works for TI-BASIC.
 
Still raises the question of why you don't just use Pyth
It basically started out as what you're describing
 
@AquaTart its about the principle. I could do the same for any other language
 
@NathanMerrill Ah, OK.
 
4:27 PM
But if you just invent an encoding for Python, be prepared for downvotes.
 
assuming its a general purpose encoding, I'm not sure why
 
Because it adds no value over the existing language.
 
Wait, so we decided it was okay to write in one language but score in another? And now we're discussing whether it would be frowned upon? Can we back up to the part about whether this is even valid in the first place?
Because I do not think that it fair. You have to score by the language you wrote in.
 
maybe I'll meta post this
 
@Rainbolt I don't know but my head hurts
I don't think the former is what he's describing
 
4:30 PM
Even if it could be translated 1-to-1, you have to actually do the translation.
 
@Rainbolt I agree with this
 
He's describing adding an encoding to Python that took something like say print( and made it a 1-byte token
However in order to do so he'd have to modify the interpreter which would create a different language
So
 
Is the one byte token in his answer?
 
@Dennis you said that Jelly uses a code page?
 
Or did he actually post print( and claim that it would have been converted to a 1 byte token
 
4:31 PM
@Rainbolt Does that mean TI-BASIC answers have to include the generated byte code?
 
@Rainbolt Well, most languages with different encodings post the UTF-8 version.
 
It would be all unprintables otherwise
 
I want to make a challenge based off this wikipedia article: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometry_of_binary_search_trees
 
@AquaTart Half-Life complete bundle. You need to play HL2 and the episodes.
 
4:32 PM
@AquaTart You're confusing bytes with characters. You cannot post bytes on an HTML page.
 
@Dennis Right. I'm saying though that since SE uses UTF-8, answers post the bytes corresponding to the UTF-8 versions of the characters
 
> Move the pointer to its left child.
Sure, blame the left child
 
i.e they translate the code from whatever encoding they use to UTF-8
then post
 
@PhiNotPi This is really neat. I'd love to see a challenge based on it. :)
 
This discussion is sounding similar to ShadyAsFuck
 
4:36 PM
@AlexA. what if ravenholm intimidates me
and that's the reason I've never played HL2
 
@AquaTart You'll be okay, I promise.
 
@AlexA. ok
 
@AquaTart But the textarea you paste your code in uses UTF-16.
 
@Dennis It does?
Oh, pretend I said UTF-16 instead.
 
I think so.
I may be confusing that with JS...
 
4:37 PM
@AquaTart We don't go to Ravenholm.
 
@TimmyD Exactly
The only way not to go is not to play
 
But Ravenholm has, by far, the best character in the game.
 
@TimmyD Father Grigori?
 
In any case, my point is that it doesn't matter. There's no way to communicate actual bytes using SE, unless you post a hexdump or something.
 
@AquaTart Indeed.
 
4:38 PM
@TimmyD You can get his rifle using give weapon_anabelle or something like that
 
@AlexA. You can get it legitimately through a glitch
 
"legitimately" and "glitch." hmmm
 
^
 
Well, I mean without sv_cheats.
 
^^^
 
4:39 PM
It's not really a glitch actually.
But basically you can set up a weird prop trap that kills him
 
If you cheat and get the magnum before you teleport to Eli's lab in the beginning, you can kill Dr. Breen. "How did you get in—" POW! The game doesn't let you continue. You're stuck teleporting in his office forever.
 
does 0x00 mean the null character?
 
@AlexA. That's hilarious.
 
@NathanMerrill Yes
 
awesome, making sure I rememberd the 0x format
 
4:42 PM
@NathanMerrill Null character or null byte, depending on the context.
@AlexA. Reminds me of GTA 3. If you activated the riot cheat at any point, there was a mission (near the end of the game) you could not pass. You had to save a guy by placing a truck underneath him before he jumped from a building. While "rioting", he would jump immediately.
 
XD
 
Oh, by the way (@El'endiaStarman), I had an insight as to how a chessolang (yes, I just did that) could be designed while on the plane. a.) Instructions could be redundantly encoded via a Hamming code or other error-correcting code: this would make it possible to encode an instruction even if you have a few forced moves along the way. (cont...)
 
You misspelled quesolang.
 
> chessolang
ba dum tish
 
> chessolang
Dangit
 
4:46 PM
Ha
@Dennis We already have Emmental and Mascarpone
I think that's enough quesolangs
@Doorknob Dare I ask what you're in San Francisco for
 
b.) There should be multiple ways to encode any given instruction. For example, there should be a way to encode the "+" instruction with only king moves, but that would probably be hopelessly verbose for such a common instruction, so there could be a, say, KBN encoding of the "+" instruction as well.
@AquaTart visiting a cousin here, and just looking around
 
You have to go to the original Ghirardelli's in Ghirardelli Square and get yourself a hot fudge sundae
I think it's mandatory honestly
 
@Dennis roflgolfer
 
Aside from that I don't know SF very well at all so I can't really help you find cool things
 
4:52 PM
the hell is that
 
Nice though. Did you draw it?
 
@AquaTart haha okay I'll maybe try
 
Dennis casting Create Minor Jelly Golf
@Doorknob Oh and cable cars are overrated
 
@AlexA. gofl
 
4:53 PM
@AquaTart Is that in Burlingame?
 
@AlexA. The avatar of RoflGolfer.
 
@Dennis O_O
 
@AlexA. Near Fisherman's Wharf
 
@Doorknob You should visit my grandparents
 
@Dennis I fixed my post (I hope) :)
I feel like I'm over my head with all of this "encoding" terminology
 
4:55 PM
@NathanMerrill There are no UTF-8 characters, only Unicode characters.
 
better?
 
Perfect.
 
@AlexA. "hi, I know your grandson as a bird over the internet" "uhh, okay" "..." "..." "well, see ya"
12
 
@Doorknob sounds perfectly reasonable to me
 
@AlexA. Me and drawing. Ahahahahaha!
 
4:57 PM
@Doorknob They'd probably be confused if you said I'm a bird, but otherwise they'd probably invite you in.
@Dennis ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
@Dennis hey FWIW I think you draw great freehand circles
 
I'm making a golfing dialect of an existing language. Which symbols in the Unicode range \xC0-\xFF would better represent output and input?
 
0
Q: How far can we take encodings?

Nathan MerrillCurrently, Jelly has a code page that maps Unicode characters to ASCII characters to avoid unprintables. Many of the characters used are multiple bytes (in UTF-8), but we score it as a single byte (as it represents a single byte, unprintable character). Now, lets assume I write another "code pa...

 
@NewMetaPosts Take it to the limit
 
push it push it to the 0xFF 0xFF
Eh, doesn't sound as good.
 
5:09 PM
My university is offering a special promotional item for free to its distance students. Should I pick a laptop bag, a set of four drinking glasses, or a blanket?
 
I'd take the blanket, but only because I have too many pint glasses already.
 
Out of context is the best context.
 
@AlexA. I recommend the blanket too, unless it's crappy, or if you don't have a good laptop bag or enough glasses.
OTOH, the laptop bag sounds like the most expensive option...
 
@AlexA. Me not having a laptop bag, I'd spring for that. I mainly echo what Zgarb says though. Extra blankets are a blessing in the winter if your heating doesn't work too well.
@Zgarb Sell the laptop bag for five pint glasses and a quilt!
 
oooh, so it looks like python has exactly 55 tokens, which gives room for 9 variables/function names
 
5:18 PM
I have a laptop bag and two similarly sized bags that function well as laptop bags... I also have so many drinking vessels that I've run out of places to put them. And we have a whole host of blankets. I don't really need any of these items but it's free.
 
Then get the laptop bag. It's the most expensive & you can sell it if it doesn't work out well.
 
How many people would want a Penn State World Campus labeled bag? :P
 
Wow I found something interesting to do and suddenly it's 12:20. FOOOOOOD!
 
@AlexA. Two: The person that designed it, and their mother.
 
hahaha
 
5:20 PM
then with 64 possible characters, you can represent 4 tokens with 3 characters
 
@TimmyD *grandmother.
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Except that their grandmother probably already knitted one of her own design.
 
@TimmyD Oh, true. Scratch that, then.
 
@AlexA. I hear you. We have a whole shelf full of useless conference bags.
 
These are the things to look forward to in life? o_o
 
5:23 PM
@AlexA. Choose the one with the highest street value.
 
@Zgarb Hah, my bags are also from conferences. Which reminds me: I have more than two such bags...
 
"Hey, I got another bag! I have so many, and I feel great!"
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Also, mugs.
 
Only one of the conferences I've been to gave out mugs.
 
@Zgarb Bags of mugs!
 
5:25 PM
@AlexA. The main conference I attend tends to give toys. That's refreshing, but also even more useless.
 
Why not just hand out cash?
It's much less trouble, and more useful.
 
@Zgarb Haha. What conference is it?
 
No "I live with everyone" option?
 
@AlexA. AUTOMATA: international workshop on cellular automata and discrete complex systems
 
@AlexA. Is my daughter a roommate?
 
5:27 PM
@Dennis lel no
 
Can't vote then.
 
Well, you live with your wife, don't you?
 
What about the Windows 7 Launch Party bags? Those are the main things I use around the house aside from my laptop bag.
 
@Zgarb That sounds super cool! I occasionally go to JSM, the Joint Statistical Meetings.
 
5:29 PM
Dick Van Dyke episode 21 or something is rather relevant:
> Sally Rogers: Look, fellas, I once shared an apartment with some very close friends and it just didn't work out. We fought all the time.

> Maurice B. 'Buddy' Sorrell: Who was it?

> Sally Rogers: My mother and father.
 
hah
 
Is that Bioshock infinite in middle right?
 
^nice turtle
 
@TimmyD Definitely thought you said "Windows 7 lunch party."
 
5:30 PM
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ No, it's this goofy like 20-piece puzzle.
 
@AlexA. I read that as "lynch party"
@TimmyD Oh, I forgot this was conference thingies. :(
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Well, I suppose it was for XP users...
 
@AlexA. Ugh, same here. One time I actually got a 2 GB USB stick which was useful at least
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Not a conference, from the Windows 7 Launch Parties
 
5:31 PM
@TimmyD Oh, hm.
 
I suppose laptop bags beat pens
 
@TimmyD wth
 
I just can't read today ;_;
 
@TimmyD what
 
You signed up with Microsoft, and if you were selected, you got everything in the pic for free (including a Windows 7 Ultimate Edition)
You just had to have a "launch party" for Windows 7
 
5:32 PM
@TimmyD Did you have any themed snacks
 
It was a cheesy promotion beyond cheesy ... but hey, free Windows 7 Ultimate.
 
"General Protection Chips"
 
> •Don’t call programmers “rockstars” or “ninjas”. Only about 10% of devs call themselves ninjas, and 7% consider themselves rockstars.
 
@AlexA. That looks very big. AUTOMATA is usually about 30 people.
 
So sounds like the number of researchers here is above average compared to SE in general?
 
5:33 PM
@AquaTart I don't recall snacks. I do remember all we did was watch movies, because you could watch DVDs on Windows 7, and that was a big new feature, or somecrap.
 
@Zgarb Oh, yes. JSM is international (though I think attendence is primarily members of the American Statistical Association) and it's big.
> somecrap
 
Also, I found a J programmer:
92
A: Developer survey: how many pennies were there?

samthebrand753 pennies. Doesn't look like it, huh? The median guess was 423. 56,032 people took the survey (wow). 42,035 respondents made a penny guess. 54 of you guessed correct. 37 correct guessers will be getting swag in the mail (they included a user link with their survey responses). 118 more of yo...

 
@AlexA. I like Microsoft, probably more than the next guy, but their marketing is beyond atrocious.
 
Yeah.
 
5:38 PM
@AlexA. what is this
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Why J programmer?
 
@AquaTart Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer being professional marketers
 
@Dennis NB.
Unless that is used elsewhere
 
NB means nota bene and predates J by several millennia.
 
^
 
5:39 PM
woah
TIL
 
...do you really not know that?
 
Yeah
I'm only 15 m8
I learned it from J >_>
 
what kind of kid knows about J
 
PPCG generation apparently
 
Him
 
5:41 PM
ok, another "how far can I take this" question:
 
@Fatalize Depends. The regulars on science sites (Math Overflow, TCS, Physics...) are probably almost all researchers.
 
@Fatalize I have not found any other my age who program as intense or even slightly as I do except for here. So, yeah.
 
Say I take Jelly, and write an interpreter that only accepts 16 characters
(say the first 16)
 
it means that I can fit two of the 16 characters in the same space that jelly fits 1 character
 
5:43 PM
@Zgarb well yeah, but excluding those and Academia. I guess researchers slacking really is true
 
If you're asking "can I make an interpreter that encodes certain two-char combinations as one char" the answer is yes
 
@Doorknob PowerShell?
 
Dammit ninja'd
 
@Doorknob Nice! :D
I was hoping it was going to be Julia but I knew that was a stretch
 
but now, lets say I write 256 choose 16 (I know, its astronomical) interpreters, one for each of the possible 16 characters
 
5:44 PM
I guess I have to learn Rust now and avoid Objective-C like the plague
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ There's no reason to learn Objective-C unless you do Mac development, and even then I think you can do everything in Swift now that otherwise would have had to be done in Objective-C.
 
Objective-C is terrible
 
@AlexA. Oh, cool. I won't even get that close to it then
 
now, assuming my program only uses 16 different characters, I have effectively shortened my jelly code in half
 
5:45 PM
Yes it's valid someone asked about it before I think
It's not that effective though
@AlexA. Except Swift drools and Objective-C rules
 
Apple people thinking it's a good idea to use brackets for methods, when it's unreadable and also three fucking key presses to write one on a mac keyboard
 
> 46% of developers don’t have a bachelor’s in computer science or a related field. So if you’re an employer requiring one of these degrees in order to consider a developer candidate, you may want to reconsider your strategy.
Hey, I can still become a dev!
 
I'm pretty sure cutting jelly byte size in half is pretty effective
 
@AquaTart You honestly have the weirdest taste in languages... >_> (lel <3)
@Dennis Math is a related field
 
@NathanMerrill sounds like MetaGolfScript
 
5:47 PM
I'm a friend to all languages great and small except for the ones I don't like
 
haha
 
@NathanMerrill Except you only get to use 16 chars
 
@Fatalize What is wrong with the mac keyboard? O_O
 
You couldn't contain what makes Jelly good in 16 chars
 
@Fatalize How are brackets three key presses? o_O
 
5:47 PM
@AquaTart which is likely true of most jelly submissions
 
Haskell is "trending" at about -40%, above only Windows Phone. :(
 
hahaha
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Everything.
 
her's a french MAC Keyboard
 
5:48 PM
 
@Dennis ಠ_ಠ
 
@Doorknob yes, that's very similar. The number at the end of the language name effectively "encodes" data
 
try to find the brackets
 
@Dennis Heh. I have a degree in computer science and the most coding I do is on here.
 
@Fatalize Oh, French, yeah. It's fine in the US layout ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
5:48 PM
hint: they are not printed on it
 
@NathanMerrill I don't think you can do that >_>
 
@Fatalize Requires the option key?
 
but where is the line?
 
@Fatalize OK, I'd pin that on the French part, not the Mac part.
 
@NathanMerrill Yep, that'd be MetaGolfScript, which be a loophole of the standard variety
 
5:49 PM
@NathanMerrill then again you can dodo just Huffman encode Jelly and get byte savings without having to write more interpreters than there are atoms in the universe
 
> dodo
 
sure, but the question is where the line is
 
@AlexA. I haven't used one in a while, but I think it's alt+shift+parenthesis or command +shift+parenthesis
 
You could also write 256 Jelly interpreters that just do evalJelly("x"+code)
@AlexA. wat
 
obviously, metagolfscript isn't allowed
 
5:50 PM
@Dennis Normal french keyboards have decent placement of various brackets, that's a mac thing
 
but if I actually generated all of the interpreters and stored them somewhere, is it now allowed?
 
I don't think there's technically a rule against it
 
or is this a realm of "human judgement"
 
@Fatalize Like this? Way too hard to reach...
 
@Doorknob You said it :P
> For the first time, more developers are using Mac than Linux as their primary OS.
\o/
 
5:52 PM
@Dennis that's not that hard
 
@AlexA. Just being that they're wronger than they were before.
 
@AlexA. Hopefully first and last! (kidding :P)
 
>:U
 
@AlexA. oh... yeah, I meant "also" but typing on mobile is like poking at an avocado and trying to get words to come out
3
 
s/avocado/avocad/;s/words/juic/
 
5:53 PM
You mean avodad not speech at you for when you squez?
 
not spech ):
 
Good afternoon
 
Oy
 
Mac, or Linux?
actually wait strawpoll coming
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Mac is a brand. Linux is a kernel. Cannot compare.
 
5:56 PM
oo_o
They were just compared tho
4 mins ago, by Alex A.
> For the first time, more developers are using Mac than Linux as their primary OS.
 
Reaks of wrongness.
 
I think you mean OS X vs. Linux
 
Neither Mac nor Linux are operating systems >_>
 
MAc OS X vs GNU/Linux, if anything. The latter is still a family of OS's.
 
5:57 PM
> When the inventor of the USB stick dies, they'll gently lower the coffin, then pull it back up, turn it the other way, and lower it again.
17
 
where is the windows option
 
That's the next strawpoll ;)
It's "If you had to choose"
 
@Dennis I'm still on Cheetah
so, we could just make Mac OS a family too
 
also, what about chromeos
 
5:59 PM
@NathanMerrill I have no idea what that is, but it sounds like a version of Mac OS X.
 
its version 1
but X is version 10
 
wait I thought chromeos was a joke
 
@CᴏɴᴏʀO'Bʀɪᴇɴ Quoted directly from the SO dev survey, so blame them. (cc @Doorknob)
 

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