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9:00 PM
@Mego @Downgoat I managed to get an average-byte-count-calculator sort of working: data.stackexchange.com/codegolf/query/edit/552618
Now to figure out how to sort by AverageBytes remove languages which less than 10 answers
 
Anonymous
@Mego It wouldn't let me post to the Sandbox. — Oliver Ni 32 secs ago
 
ORDER BY
 
Anonymous
Brb ripping hair out
 
@Mego what
 
Anonymous
Same user who has been posting a dupe challenge daily, after being told to use the Sandbox for the umpteenth time, is now claiming that "it wouldn't let [them] post to the Sandbox"
 
9:03 PM
No I know. Just mind boggled by the actual comment
which he appears to have deleted
 
Anonymous
@ETHproductions Add having count(1) >= 10 after group by Languages
 
@Mego They probably mean the "too much answers" popup. Which isn't an excuse, but maybe an explanation.
 
Anonymous
@mınxomaτ It's yet another example of that user being unwilling to put in a tiny amount of effort to make good challenges
 
I meant the "it wouldn't let [them] post to the Sandbox" part specifically.
 
Winning solution to that challenge: CJam score 1: 3
 
Anonymous
I know. It's just frustrating to no end that people won't put in a tiny amount of effort in writing challenges, when I (and many others) put in a huge amount.
 
Anonymous
@ETHproductions Glad to help :)
 
Anonymous
having is like where, but works on aggregate data (like count), and requires the use of group by
 
@ETHproductions wat cheddar is shorter than pyth ._.
 
They say you learn something new every day, and I'm learning a ton about SQL today...
I gave up on trying to extract the byte count, so it just extracts the length of the first code block and uses that as the byte count
@Downgoat Are there a bunch of cheddar solutions less than 33 bytes or something?
 
Anonymous
9:10 PM
@ETHproductions Languages which use non-ASCII code pages will have an incorrect byte count using that method
 
@Mego I know, that's one of the dozens of problems the query has
The best way to fix this would probably be to switch to JavaScript
 
@Downgoat It isn't a great statistic. Python3 for instance isat the bottom because usually people will answer hard challenges only in a non golf language
 
Anonymous
@ETHproductions You spell Python weirdly
 
In the case of Cheddar you're mostly picking battles you can win :P
 
@Mego I don't know much Python
not that I know more SQL than Python
 
9:13 PM
-1
A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Oliver Ni3.14159265358979323846264... Your task is to write a program or function to print Pi accurately to as many digits as you can. Here are the requirements: Your program must actually calculate pi, not just print a string hard-coded into the program or a built-in. Your program must end in under 1...

 
@ETHproductions Why not just use the byte count in the header? Then you can handle hexdumps too
 
@quartata I would love to, but the parsing required is more than I know how to handle in SQL
 
@ETHproductions i know median is pain to do in SQL but i think mode/median will be a much better metric
 
I'd have to handle all these cases:
JavaScript, 123
JavaScript - 123
JavaScript 123
JavaScript, <s>126</s> 123
JavaScript, 123 <s>126</s>
JavaScript 123 <s>126</s>
JavaScript, 108 + 12 = 123
JavaScript (ES6) 123
And a bazillion more
 
just handle %lang% n bytes
 
9:17 PM
@Downgoat That sounds great, but I have no idea how to do that :P
 
@Downgoat Would be better to get the first number from the right
 
Grabbing the last number in the header seems like a good way to do it, but I'm not sure how to do that either
In JS, it'd probably be body.match(/<h\d>.+(\d+)</h1>/)[1]
 
0
Q: ASCII PPCG Beta Logo Golf

Jonathan AllanWe shall soon have a new logo & site design, let us use this last breath of the simple times and golf this ASCII version of the speech bubble beta logo: +-------------------------------------------+ | .---------------------------------. | | .EPEpEpBPEpEGCXCgCgCGJgCgP&PWP&P&P&Y` | | .R...

 
I have to leave anyway; I'll look into this more some other time.
 
i go overboard on synax highlighting or does it look fine?
 
9:27 PM
Definitely overboard.
 
:( ok
 
Anonymous
@Downgoat That looks like a unicorn vomited rainbows all over your code
 
Code is supposed to be easy to look at, especially in dark themes. That's my Monokai/Solarized/Tomorrow etc. all have a limited number of entities.
 
@Downgoat mego literally just ninja'd me
 
9:29 PM
I like my syntax highlighting with too much colours too
 
@Mego But no orange or dark blue
 
Anonymous
Confirmed: penguins are mind-readers and faster than dragons
 
Anonymous
@HelkaHomba I'm colorblind so I wouldn't notice :P
 
What kind?
 
@Mego PPCG has just overflowed my diversity counter
What's after a 64 bit integer!?
 
9:31 PM
128?
 
@Downgoat colour blind too so wouldn't help me much - looks pretty full on though
 
> There is no support in GCC for expressing an integer constant of type __int128 for targets with long long integer less than 128 bits wide.
shit I should've written myself in Python
 
Woah two colour blinds, two asthmatics...woah m8
 
It's definately better than it would be on white or light grey
 
9:33 PM
@betseg whose the second asthmatic?
 
better?
 
just implemented recursive integers... oh no two colorblinds, core dumped
 
<< third
 
8PB integer, hope it won't overflow this time
 
9:35 PM
Haha
 
@Downgoat you're only 5?
looks quite pretty actually
 
"5 YEAR OLD INVENTS PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE"
"GOATS LIKE CHEESE NOW"
 
:O
 
@JonathanAllan uhhhh sure?
 
@Downgoat pitch Cheddar to me
 
9:36 PM
I mean yeah I'm five in goat years
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC CHEDDAR IS BETTER THAN SWIS CHES PLS EAT VREY TASTY
 
is it like JS + Python + Java
@Downgoat as a programming language
Is it like Ruby + Java + compaitability with JS libs?
 
Say what you want about inter-language comparison, but it's quite satisfying to beat ES6 and Ruby(!) with Python.
 
I's like cheeeeeese
 
9:37 PM
@Dennis huh? what do you mean by "beat"?
 
Anonymous
@Dennis Do you also enjoy ripping sweets from the clutches of infants?
3
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Outgolf.
@Mego Ruby is usually pretty golfy.
 
@Dennis Python is concise and readable if you have exp. with it.
 
ES6 too yes
 
List comps look like art sometimes
 
9:39 PM
Also, what would a diabetic do with sweets anyway?
 
DAMMIT, YOU OVERFLOWED THE DIVERSITY COUNTER AGAIN!
 
heh, hoard them, if you cant have fun why should anyone else :p
 
and Django is literally return HTTPResponse('hyehye invalid request', statuscode=400)
 
Moderating candy since 2009.
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Python is not at all readable if you have experience with it. On PPCG, anyway.
 
@Dennis I mean IRL
Python is readable for real code
 
9:42 PM
Who cares about RL?
3
 
...says the user who doesn't do programming professionally (and is not <18)
 
reality is overrated.
 
I'm slightly confused by your potentially sarcastic, negative statement.
 
^
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC that was a joke.
 
@Dennis ABOR ABORT ABORT
 
9:45 PM
-1 not pro-life /s
 
okay, how do you say "lol" or "haha" without sounding generic?
 
it was rhetorical?
 
halp no i understand
 
You guys following the US election? :S
 
9:47 PM
from afar
 
Sadly yes
 
Which election?
 
@HelkaHomba painfully
 
9:48 PM
Dennis, you are on a funny streak
 
I miss the days when "binders full of women" was the most alarming thing a presidential candidate could say about women.
6
 
CMC: everybody say the country they are in/pledge allegiance to
 
Just saying, there is more than one going on right now.
 
@HelkaHomba Don't worry, I'm sure Donnie's got binders too.
 
United States (and not of soviet russia)
 
9:49 PM
Georgia is finished
(I mean the election, not that Georgia is kaput)
(and, no I do not mean the US State)
 
Trump is finished (hopefully)
 
@HelkaHomba yes.
 
Anonymous
I'm sure at least one SE site is having mod elections
 
@HelkaHomba dunno man
 
@Dennis idk whether to :D because you imply ES6 is golfier than python or ";_; y u do dis" because you like to beat ES6 with snek
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC .___.
 
9:52 PM
Just be happy for me. :P
 
@Dennis?
 
@Mego physics
(I think)
 
________________import__________________(_______________"myfile.txt"___________) is basically what i envision python code as :P
 
1 min ago, by Downgoat
@Dennis idk whether to :D because you imply ES6 is golfier than python or ";_; y u do dis" because you like to beat ES6 with snek
 
oh, and chemistry
 
9:53 PM
@HelkaHomba 2% overall. Election turnout + Margin of Error = Trump could win. (Imagine something like brexit)
 
@Dennis wtf? why do you think python is like that?
last time I used __import__ was... never
 
The goat is in another castle.
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC did you mean to ping me?
 
@Downgoat Needs more significant whitespace.
 
9:54 PM
@Downgoat oh yeah
 
i am not refering to __import__ but the scary use of underscores and whitespace in python
 
@Downgoat use WhiteSpace Haters Python™ next time then
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC if you can actually reply to people, instead of just pinging them, that would be helpful for people trying to read these conversations.
 
________if__________ ( _____myvariable_____ == _______0______):
                                ________print________(______other_variable______)
 
@Downgoat hyperbole
 
9:55 PM
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC if you like whitespace you do not belong here :P
 
I like significant whitespace. If your indentation is messed up, your code probably doesn't do what you want to anyway.
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC yes it is called joke
 
@Downgoat since when did you format your code with insignificant whitespace incorrectly and liked it that way?
 
@Dennis the language should never enforce such a fundamental think such as indentation however
 
it's underscores or weird added syntax
 
9:57 PM
@Dennis Plus it's a lot faster to write. You wouldn't think it is but it really is
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC please find me a python golf which is shorter with whitespace :P
 
@Downgoat saves braces
 
@Dennis give me rules for significant whitespace and I'll find you a legitimate and readable code layout that they prohibit
 
@Downgoat use python semicolons + one indent tabs
@MartinEnder Python's.
It's worth python's awesomeness.
 
Anonymous
@Downgoat That's the only thing I dislike about Python for golfing - whitespace denoting blocks is longer than braces
 
9:58 PM
Just read "Trump apologises for lewd comments and vows to be a "better man"" on the BBC. This sounds like something an elementary school teacher says to the parents of a problem child.
 
@Mego use WHPython
 
Anyone know how to make windows 10 open up a new explorer instance when you open a folder you already have opened, and not bring the current instance to the front (possibly, annoyingly changing desktops in the process)
 
@mınxomaτ as someone on the internet I saw said "those are Kellyanne Conway's words not Trump's" :P
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC or just use cheddar
i should add a python syntax mode thing to cheddar
 
@HelkaHomba like Ctrl+N?
 
@Downgoat why?
Okay,
 
10:01 PM
so i can convince python ♥ers to use cheddar
except for the blocks, cheddar and python have plenty of familiar syntax elements
 
@Downgoat Why would you do this
 
35 secs ago, by Downgoat
so i can convince python ♥ers to use cheddar
 
Let Python be Python and let Cheddar be Cheddar
 
@MartinEnder Kinda. But when you're opening it from say a desktop icon. I want to open the folder on the current desktop and not be zoomed over the desktop it is open in.
 
> You choose how you want to code in Cheddar
 
10:03 PM
You're doing something wrong if you have to have a switch for significant whitespace to get people to use your language
 
@HelkaHomba hm, no clue, I don't work with multiple desktops
 
@quartata no i mean i can have both at once
it isn't too hrad
 
@Downgoat Oh that's even worse
People are for sure going to mix them
 
;_;
oh god true
;_; idk how to get people to use ches
i should write cool app in cheddar
but i can't write iOS or android app in cheddar ;_;
 
@MartinEnder You should try it. You can have one dedicated to getting work done, and one dedicated to TNB (i.e. not getting work done) :P
 
Anonymous
10:05 PM
I don't use Cheddar because I have no use for Cheddar
 
@HelkaHomba I'd never even open the work one :D
 
@Mego but it is beautiful, powerful, extensible, intuitive, high-level, dynamic programming lagnauage ;_;
best way i can get people to use cheddar is powerful stdlib i guess
thats why lots of people use java
 
I at least have a use for Pytek: I'm a sociopath who smears his code head to toe in generators
 
Anonymous
@Downgoat Lots of people use java because their teachers/professors tell them to
 
Pytek provides a means for me to use generators in more places
 
Anonymous
10:06 PM
Generators are great :D
 
@Mego I'm a little obsessed with them.
 
@Mego no i mean how it got inital think
 
Anonymous
I should make a language where everything is lazily evaluated in random order
 
@Downgoat Java got its initial audience because at the time it was the only real compiled but portable bytecode-style language
 
10:07 PM
^^ಠ_ಠ
 
Anonymous
So you better write tacit code, or else results will vary wildly :P
 
@quartata oh :|
 
Plus applets seemed like a good idea
 
SO lied to me >:|
 
Java's STDLIB is shit.
 
10:08 PM
@quartata Naming language after cheese also seemed like a good idea ;_;
@quartata yeah but it has easy enoguh GUI library
 
Anonymous
@Downgoat ...what? Swing is garbage
 
It's taken it 20 years to have .join
 
Swing is the worst part of Java
 
@Mego its garbage but its easy to use
 
I'm OK with Swing.
@Downgoat Actually it's excruciating. People use Tk if they want something easy
 
10:09 PM
.___.
 
Anonymous
Swing is only marginally better than AWT
 
Anonymous
Tk is best GUI library
 
JavaFX is definitely a lot better
 
brb writing tk bindings for cheddar
 
But I'm OK with using Swing.
@Downgoat This is the same thought that went through everyone's head in the 80s when they first saw Tcl
 
Anonymous
10:10 PM
FLTK is nice for a lightweight library, but it's really weak
 
Just substitute "cheddar" for "perl"
 
Python's std lib is really good at most times... but then sometimes you have to drop in urllib and datetime with packages on PyPI
 
@Mego wxWidgets is really hard to use outside of C. None of the layers are any good.
GTK is a pain in the ass
Qt is magnificent except for building
 
;_; idk what to use got GUI lib for ches now
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC I'm frankly amazed requests isn't in the stdlib yet.
@Downgoat I would start with Tk because that would be the easiest to add
 
10:11 PM
@quartata yeah, webbrowser is an external lib that got bundled
 
Anonymous
I've never used wxWidgets, can confirm that GTK is painful. Qt makes designing super easy but makes building and deploying exponentially harder
 
urllib is like handling direct with sockets and specialized /dev/* devices, when requests is like english
 
Hm... To avoid having to make C++ -> Node bindings I should see if I can manage C++ -> Cheddar bindings directly
gyp is pain in ass to do anything tho
 
@Downgoat LARGE MISTAKE
 
or you should rewrite Cheddar in not-Javascript
 
10:14 PM
@Downgoat kan cheddar compyle 2 js?
can use 4 web?
 
@Fatalize i am trying but v8 will be faster than any C++ I can write
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC if you can speak in letters, yes
 
@Downgoat woahhhhh
 
(though I'm not one to comment on such things)
 
Cheddar is the new ES6
is it performance? is it webscale?
is it DOM?
is it slim and speedy?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Me and ASCII-only have been trying to write a C++ cheddar parser but it's very slow. Maybe Bison will be faster but now i have to learn a whole new language and set of tools and gain experience in them which will take me ~1-2 years
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC it is cheese
 
10:16 PM
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC It is absolutely none of those things.
 
^
it is tasty though
it can make pretty good grilled cheese sanwiches
 
Cheddar Lang: Can I use to develop web front ends?
 
not sure about websites
 
@Lynn How was your experience with kakoune so far?
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC you can develop backends
Quill made a POC in the serverside repo
 
10:17 PM
@Downgoat if you could make it work for front ends, that would be AWESOME
 
you can but it'll be slow
 
Compete with Brython - (it's Python for web development, and it's fast)
@Downgoat but make it speedy and slim, like brython
 
I guess you can compile it with v8 but it'll be still same speed
 
I'm still sticking to native JS, with maybe a bit of ES6
 
you should use babel
it is super-fast too
you can also use proposed ES8 features like strict-typings
and write your own babel plugin
 
10:19 PM
ES8!?
ES F**KING 8!?
JS, you freak me out
 
Gnight
 
ES6, ES7, and now ES8
all unfinished
 
ES6 is finished...
 
babel is cool though
 
pls google your claims before you rage about them in chat
 
10:21 PM
@Downgoat you like cheddar, but you reccomend babel mini-babybel.com/products
@Downgoat you must like this mini-babybel.com/products/cheddar-variety
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Those are frigging disgusting.
 
:( they dont have goat cheese cheddar
 
The regular one's are OK though.
 
a bit salty, but it's got protein and tastes kinda like meat
@mınxomaτ ok, time to talk security
 
O...kay?
What about it?
 
10:26 PM
let's say I compromise a few NTP servers. That means HSTS attacks and accepting invalid security certificates
(also HSTS supercookies)
(and why not fetch the HSTS preload list through a server [HTTPS only of course] instead of hard coding it) (but anyways that's not security anymore)
@mınxomaτ
hey, I was going to tell you web.de was un-HTTPS but it looks like you fixed it now
 
I fixed it? Didn't know about that, but I guess I can patch things while sleeping.
 
@mınxomaτ ...is this boring to you because you have already heard it (I mean, you are a security expert)
 
I'm never really bored.
 
so what is your response?
 
To what now exactly? I didn't see a question there.
 
10:32 PM
@mınxomaτ btw, do you have a super secure system running OpenBSD dualboot Tails and honeypots everywhere?
> let's say I compromise a few NTP servers. That means HSTS attacks and accepting invalid security certificates
reaction, pls?
is my point valid?
 
HSTS attacks aren't really attacks. You are actually doing stupid sysadmins a favor by purging the cache of whatever they misconfifured. But yeah, compromised NTP servers are dangerous, yet uncommon. Remote exploits won't really work on the critical ones, because they are hardly interactive.
 
@mınxomaτ you don't need to compromise - most NTP servers don't use encryption because it delays the accuracy of the time too much. Just spoof UDP packets
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC So? This will use the server as a DDoS amp, but you didn't attack the server itself.
I thought your goal was to change the actual response sent to valid clients.
 
reworded: spoofing NTP packets -> security flaws
@mınxomaτ yes
[in]Security Through Obscurity: 1. go to airport 2. spoof all NTP packets 3. sslstrip.py 4. wait 5. ??? 6. Profit!
 
Spoofing anything is a security flaw. It's just not very practical (band for the buck wise) on an internet-wide scale.
 
10:37 PM
spoofing NTP packets let's you bypass UDP
these are all low-level attacks...
 
@mınxomaτ Oof, I’ve actually switched back to Vim, following the path of habit/least resistance. I should get Kakoune set up on both OS’s I use and then alias vim to it…
 
@mınxomaτ Anything obscure but interesting like the article on bitsquatting you showed me?
Le Internet Language:
Personal Pronouns are denoted by "@"
(like the personal a in spanish)
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC Well, since you talked about spoofing, a cloudflare engineer recently did a talk on the state of IP spoofing at AS level: youtube.com/watch?v=79u7bURE6Ss
TL;DW: Use netflow if you are a network authority.
 
DDoS is boring...
NTP spoofing not for DDoS
 
@Lynn I noticed it takes a pretty long time to install/build. I'd like to see a slicker version of that. Plus, the docs are really hard to understand due to broken english.
 
10:47 PM
we need git for rich text
e.g. word, pages, OO
 
git can track Rich Text perfectly fine, since RTF is literally just markup.
 
git works wonderfully with LaTeX.
 
Also, git has docs on tracking Word documents: git-scm.com/book/en/v2/Customizing-Git-Git-Attributes
 
@noɥʇʎPʎzɐɹC pages has built in version control
 
@Downgoat I mean Pages For Mac, part of iWork
 
10:52 PM
I know
 
@El'endiaStarman Does splat work with generator expressions?
 
Computers are responsible for at least half of world GDP
We programmers should get our own nation
 
@Downgoat How does your Vim look so beautiful
 
Looks like it does
 
@Qwerp-Derp Hyperterm + monokai + powerline
(Hyperterm optional)
 
10:56 PM
@SebastianLenartowicz Those are nothing to sneeze at. — Yakk yesterday
Best thing I read all day.
 
+ OSX font rendering, seemingly!
 
> constraint[0](*(satisfied[i] if i != next_var else value for i in constraint[1]))
This is good code
 
… if … != … else … is weird ;-;
 
How do I install fonts
 
@Lynn Heavy sarcasm on "good code"
 
10:59 PM
@Qwerp-Derp Google? :|
 
on Vim
 
@Qwerp-Derp first install it on your computer
 

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