The Whiteboard

Duga

3:00 PM

I think this question is better suited for programmers.SE. — max taldykin 45 secs ago

Kit Z. Fox

I think it should just be a total free for all. In the mayhem sense, not the fiduciary one.

Brandin

Using knowledge gained from a book has nothing to do with copyrights. I once gained knowledge from an Encyclopedia Brittanica article and then used that to write Foo. Does that mean I need a license from Encylopedia Brittanica in order to publish Foo? No, because I wrote Foo.

Ampt

"Hey Ampt, you want to do heap and thread dump analysis on prod for a system and project you've never been on for the day?"

I'm gonna go with thanks, but no thanks.

Kit Z. Fox

Mini-marshmallows. Again! This day is so delightful.

Ampt

@Brandin Isn't attribution an integral part of research papers?

Thomas Owens

3:04 PM

@Ampt It is.

user55340

Can of worms for licensing and CC-BY-SA to GPLv3 path. (@amon and @ThomasOwens and @enderland ). Say I write an answer that describes a patented algorithm. I write some demonstration code to help describe it. Say I'm describing #4197590 (XOR Cursor) and the code or #4558302 (LZW). Now, that's fine under CC-BY-SA. But now, someone takes that CC-BY-SA and migrates it to GPL v3... which has a patent grant in it. Yes, software patents have their issues.

Jimmy Hoffa

@ThomasOwens arguable - which is precisely the problem.

Thomas Owens

In fact, isn't being cited in a research paper a big deal?

Brandin

Attribution is not related to a license. A license means "I got permission from Encyclopedia Brittanica to use this". Attribution means "I got this from Encyclopedia Britannica, and I'm using it, whether or not they gave me permission to do so. Because I don't need permission to use facts or knowledge."

user55340

However, its one of those "this could be interesting for lawyers" trying to find out who is at fault and who to sue along with some GPL projects suddenly going "oops" and ripping out code.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:06 PM

@Brandin untrue. Use of facts and knowledge are thoroughly copyrighted, expect a DMCA and summons in the mail. I'll see you in court.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens Yes.

enderland

@Ampt academia is built on this basically, there are so many games with references/blahblahblah

Kit Z. Fox

@enderland What kind of games? I haven't heard that claim before.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox academia takes the "office politics" thing and makes it into a profession

Kit Z. Fox

What does that have to do with referencing other work?

^ (asked with a confused and curious tone)

Jimmy Hoffa

3:09 PM

@KitZ.Fox reference = credit = promotion

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa There are politics with author order, but I've never heard of politics over citation.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox in academia, a paper is "validated" somewhat based on how many times it gets referenced

Kit Z. Fox

Right.

Jimmy Hoffa

In industry you point at the projects you completed at previous jobs during interviews, in academia I presume you point at how used your work is via references

enderland

@JimmyHoffa it's a way to try to say "my journal/research is important, because of how often it gets cited"

Kit Z. Fox

3:10 PM

More volume than citation, but that is one measure.

Ampt

@Brandin doesn't the licensing in Encyclopedia Brittanica dictate whether you're required to attribute or not?

If you use them as a source and fail to follow their license, you are in trouble

which is my whole argument

Kit Z. Fox

But I haven't heard of gaming it before. I don't know how you would do that.

enderland

sending email to all previous contacts saying goodbye/thanks/blah, what should I title this

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox put it this way: I'll cite yours if you'll cite mine! In fact, I'll cite you in my next 10 papers if you'll do the same!

Kit Z. Fox

Trick a bunch of people into citing your work?

@enderland "A Fond Adieu"

snickers

enderland

3:11 PM

"goodbye - sucks to suck!!!1" ?

Ampt

you can't just look at proprietary code, glean insights from it, then write your own class based off of it and claim that yours has no relation to theirs

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox actually, I take it back, I don't like you because you wouldn't cite mine. I'm going to find similar work to yours and cite that instead.

Kit Z. Fox

@JimmyHoffa Yeah. It doesn't work like that.

Brandin

@Ampt No, that's not the point. Encyclopedia Britannica might specifically say in their "license", something like "you are never ever allowed to copy this, ever." But I can still use the information there. Attribution is to show where I got it from.

Ampt

@Brandin Sorry, I own the copyright on the comment you just linked to. I'll see you in court.

Kit Z. Fox

3:12 PM

@JimmyHoffa You must publish in a different field than I have.

Brandin

Attribution is not done to comply with licensing requirements. Using information does not require a license. However, if you use some information and claim that you invented it or something, then that is called dishonesty. It has nothing to do with licenses.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox academia is screwed up. :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@Brandin the problem is "copy" is so messed up. In Texas a man had an idea for an algorithm which after fired he was required to work towards communicating / handing over to his employer because they sued and the court found his idea was copyrightable by them and their property even though he never manifested it or even finished thinking up the algorithm

In the state of texas, if you read something, you copied it into your mind. Pirate!

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah, but Texas.

They teach kids that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs there.

Brandin

No, reading something is not a copy. I don't know about the court case, but probably what happened had to do with $$$ not laws.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:14 PM

@KitZ.Fox oh do I ever! I publish in the field of Scotch. I publish it to glasses and frequently to my face. It's a good field to publish in!

Kit Z. Fox

Sounds peaty.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Brandin of course it had to do with $$$, and if you think there's a difference between that and laws you're missing the whole point.

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa You publish scotch all over your face? I think you're doing it wrong.

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt I'm doing it SPECTACULARLY!

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox you tryna say they dint?

Kit Z. Fox

3:15 PM

@Ampt I have nothing to say to you on that subject.

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox That's what i thought.

frickin northners think they now bettr n us

Brandin

@KitZ.Fox That is not Texas. That is Kentucky.

Kit Z. Fox

It's all south of civilization to me.

Ampt

3:36 PM

@KitZ.Fox And just a little east of eden?

Kit Z. Fox

Mebbe. Hard telling, not knowing.

Our business just submitted a headdesk ticket for something they can handle with data. Literally checking a box.

Ampt

dear devs - pls check box kthxbai - Management

enderland

@Ampt no you need a meeting to discuss!

Jimmy Hoffa

ahh I love it. This week started with "We are going to start our process again and get back on track with the new year. Standups every day are scheduled they'll be fast yatta yatta" -> We have one standup, others got cancelled for reasons and today didn't get cancelled but my boss just didn't show up to start it.

Kit Z. Fox

dear devs - pls fix all the codez to stop this value comin thru kthxbai Iz vry Impordant now! Fergited to tell u last month wen we chanjed planz. <3 Biz.

2

enderland

3:39 PM

I should offer to do consulting part-time for what I'm doing right now

as long as I pick a really high number, that might be ok right? :P

Jimmy Hoffa

Process! We are committed to you! Promise! Just uhh.. maybe..another time.. I'm busy right now you see. I'm getting to you process! I value you, but I'm just uhm, look over there process! runs

Ampt

@enderland Not sure that the Snark-Consultant market is large enough for that.

enderland

I just had someone stop by and tell me they have some very critical projects this spring they need an expert in what I do

Ampt

@enderland "I charge 250 an hour, 10 hour minimum. 20/80 split"

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland you should have said "That sounds great! I can't wait to get started on them, schedule me a meeting to get started reviewing with you Monday!"

Kit Z. Fox

3:41 PM

An Expert™

enderland

@JimmyHoffa it was funny, stopping by "how's it going? pretty busy?" was an awkward convo HAHA

Ampt

Yeah, it's gonna be really busy for you suckers when I'm gone!

enderland

@Ampt the number I was thinking as a ballpark would have been $100/hr to make me consider it, since it's high enough that it feels ridiculous to me

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland practice makes perfect. Jump #1 is the hardest. I don't even know where I work anymore half the time...

Ampt

@enderland 100/hr is likely the total compensation you get now, maybe a little less

Kit Z. Fox

3:42 PM

@enderland Pretty standard if you're self-employed.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland that is SOOO not ridiculous! LOL

wow

Kit Z. Fox

That's what I charge on my projects.

Ampt

remember, if you were doing this full time you would still need healthcare, retirement, etc. etc.

enderland

ok I need to aim higher apparently :P

Jimmy Hoffa

gads you need to open your eyes to what everyone else is doing. You sell yourself short my friend

enderland

3:43 PM

@JimmyHoffa nah I just didn't bother to calculate anything :P and it's a round number

Kit Z. Fox

I give a break to one place where I like doing projects with them and have had steady work.

Ampt

seriously, for an expert who doesn't need ramp up time on a project (aka is highly skilled in the particular tool/language/framework) can easily be worth 250/hr

enderland

realistically I will have a FT job too to worry about

but this does make me intrigued

Kit Z. Fox

@enderland That's why I charge only $100/hr. Because they have to work around my schedule.

Ampt

so was I when @KitZ.Fox asked me to send him details - but my current contract stifles my ability to freelance, unfortunately

user41796

3:44 PM

@enderland What you're weighing is the hassle involved with taking the day off at future employer vs. potential consulting gain.

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland the starting expectation for anyone in that game is $150/hr, for someone who provides extra value by knowledge and experience in A) The domain or B) the technology, you're going to look at 200-300. Beyond 300 you better be a guru

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa I've seen the rates some of the SQL gurus charge... shit's crazy

user41796

Figure out your current pay rate + overhead and then add 50% to it. Require 4 or 8 hour blocks, so they have to make it easy for you with scheduling PTO

Ampt

like 1500/hr

(way overpriced IMO)

enderland

plus it's SAP and people already expect to pay outrageous amounts of money for them

Jimmy Hoffa

3:45 PM

@Ampt yeah, you're talking critical stuff at that point is why. That's who a company calls in when their database fell apart

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa oh for sure.

enderland

@GlenH7 50% wouldn't be worth the hassle tbh. especially with this conversation, I've not really bothered to calculate what all this would be worth/cost/etc

Kit Z. Fox

My best gig is "code tutoring" for an analyst.

Ampt

@enderland 100/hr isn't looking so attractive now is it? haha

Jimmy Hoffa

@enderland oh SAP shit I was thinking plain dev. SAP consultants start at 200-300. You can go way up from there because you're talking about business critical shit again.

user41796

3:46 PM

@enderland so then double it

enderland

This is interesting to me :D

user41796

( current + overhead ) x 2

Kit Z. Fox

Two hours weekly of having someone explain what they are doing and ask me questions.

enderland

I'm glad I jokingly threw that idea out there

Kit Z. Fox

Don't underestimate how much taxes will bite you if you haven't done this before though.

Jimmy Hoffa

3:47 PM

Consulting on product development was what I meant in the first numbers I spoke. When someone's SAP system falls down and they need it restored with previous functionality - or they need to migrate the SAP system where they have 20 years of financial and regulatory-required documentation to a newer version? Yeah, you can ask $500-700/hr for that 1-3 weeks of work.

enderland

@KitZ.Fox 15% FICA plus income taxes of like 30% :'(

Kit Z. Fox

First year I did consulting, I didn't even think about it, ended up with a ton of tax to pay.

Yeah, close to 30% of my earnings.

enderland

the double social security is unpleasant

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox for sure I would probably put away 35% just to be safe

Kit Z. Fox

Yes. Which is part of the justification for charging so much.

But also then you have to invoice and stuff. Ick.

That's why I don't do it full-time.

enderland

3:48 PM

@Ampt realistically, if you are "normal" in the tech world you'll pay 25% federal income tax, 15% social security, and like 5-7% state tax

Ampt

It's definitely a lot of work

Kit Z. Fox

Also, I love my job.

Jimmy Hoffa

I was always told growing up 30% is the bite to expect just gone from your paycheck at an absolute minimum for all the varied things. As your salary increases so does that. Anybody trying to get away with less is just either cheating the gov or lying to themselves

enderland

@KitZ.Fox the people I would consider doing this for are really good people to work with - which would make it completely different than some of the people I work with

Kit Z. Fox

@enderland Another advantage of consulting. You can pick.

enderland

3:50 PM

I also need to make sure I can even do this with employer++

Ampt

now is a good time to check - you likely have your legal contract in your inbox

enderland

but it's definitely not a competing thing

Ampt

mine's floating around somewhere

Jimmy unleashes some cynicism about that statement in 3... 2.... 1...

Kit Z. Fox

We promise to stop enhancing the truth in 3...2... skzzt

The boys have been into Portal recently.

Robert Harvey

I have to disagree with you on the highest-voted answer from the last thread. It simply gets the "internet" flat-out wrong. I have trouble taking seriously anyone who comes to Stack Overflow with the intention of sharing code with restrictions on who can use that code and where. If you don't want people using your code, don't share it on a public (and largely anonymous) site. — TylerH 20 hours ago

@thegrinner I doubt any people are posting in Code Review with the expectation that other people won't use that code freely. If any do, they need to manage their expectations. If you post code on a free, public (and largely anonymous) code help site, there's no license that can protect it. If you need a code review of code that needs to be restricted/private (and for some reason your workplace doesn't offer that), use one of the many private 1-on-1 code review services out there where there's accountability built-in. Any anonymous passerby can copy your Code Review snippet and use it. — TylerH 20 hours ago

I was quite surprised to learn that some members of Code Review expect their code to be treated "for learning purposes only," especially one of the moderators.

Kit Z. Fox

3:54 PM

What else would you use Code Review for? I thought the point of having your code reviewed was to learn how to do it better?

user41796

Pffft. Who reads the T's & C's in the terms of use before joining a site?

enderland

@Ampt looks like nothing in the stuff I have gotten would be a direct "no moonlighting" type of thing

Robert Harvey

> We want the Internet to take the knowledge and advice that they learn from answers to improve their code and their skills. We do not expect them to just take the code as a product.

enderland

as long as moonlighting isn't for a competitor/etc

which... I guess is reasonable :D

Ampt

@enderland sounds pretty reasonable honestly. I doubt my company is so lenient.

brb, looking up my employment contract

Kit Z. Fox

3:55 PM

@enderland And you're not using company resources for that purpose.

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox that goes without saying

Robert Harvey

@KitZ.Fox The issue is folks copy/pasting their code into a program. I agree with TylerH on this one: if you don't want people using your code this way, then don't post it on the Internet.

enderland

@Ampt well your company exists based on providing consulting services to other people, so for you doing consulting by itself practically is competing

Kit Z. Fox

@RobertHarvey Yeah, I think I agree with that. I guess I didn't understand your conclusion.

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey What if I want people to use my knowledge (at least the knowledge I do post on the Internet), but I want them to acknowledge me?

Ampt

3:56 PM

@enderland quit shitting on my hopes and dreams!

Robert Harvey

Until the "new and improved licensing" post came along, I had no idea how attached people are to attribution. Sure, it's nice if people acknowledge your work, but what if they don't? What are you gonna do, sue?

user41796

Ditto with wanting people to learn from your code instead of just copy-pasta'ing

user41796

Not a whole lot you can do in that case either

Thomas Owens

@RobertHarvey Probably not. But I do like having the legal ground to stand on.

Robert Harvey

For what it's worth, I always attribute, even when it's not required.

enderland

3:58 PM

@Ampt you could pick up SAP consulting! :P

Thomas Owens

Plus, there are plenty of people out there who will do the right thing and attribute if you ask them nicely.

If you reduce the barrier to do so - make it simple and easy.

Robert Harvey

But then to extend that to say "This code isn't meant for copy/pasting, but only for learning and information purposes..." well, if you feel that way, you probably shouldn't be posting it on the Internet.

enderland

@ThomasOwens just add an "copy attribution" link on the bottom of posts, next to share/etc and have that auto copy the attibution so you can paste it into your project

actually that's not a bad idea

Ampt

@enderland Actually all rights to anything developed during my career is assigned to my employer

because fuck me I guess

(except where prohibited by state law)

Robert Harvey

That whole "your employer owns everything" thing is a bit overblown. If you write stuff on your own time on your own equipment and facilities unrelated to your employer's business, it most decidedly does not belong to them, no matter what their employment contract says.

Right, exactly.

Ampt

4:01 PM

@RobertHarvey Depends on state law actually

enderland

woot woot, that basically implies a greenlight on non-direct competition moonlighting

Robert Harvey

Well, that's none of their business either, really.

Kit Z. Fox

I prefer to rely on "What they don't know won't hurt me" method.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey Ok, here's the problem. The US National gov't has no law explicitly forbidding it, therefore, it is allowed as an enforceable contract inclusion, except in states where such clauses are forbidden

In the end, in states where such clauses aren't forbidden, you'll likely go to court over it unless you roll over

Robert Harvey

I don't sign such contracts.

Ampt

4:03 PM

which could cost you your primary employment even if you win

enderland

@RobertHarvey the things I'm quoting are basically in their "if you develop technology for us, it's our technology" contract

Ampt

@RobertHarvey that's a far cry from the previous exclamation that they don't exist :P

Robert Harvey

I didn't say they don't exist. I said they're (probably) unenforceable.

Kit Z. Fox

> It is not clear whether a [sys B] test version will be available for testing the interdependencies between [sys A] database updates and [sys B] queries.

^ in the test plan I'm reviewing.

Ampt

@RobertHarvey unenforceable and unpunishable are two different things here though

Kit Z. Fox

4:05 PM

Testing was supposed to have started yesterday.

Robert Harvey

But then I'm not a lawyer.

Ampt

if your employer takes you to court over it, you're likely going to not work for them anymore, regardless of outcome

Is it a dick move? yeah.

but in states where the law is ambiguous, you're open to that sort of thing with those contracts

luckily, Illinois prohibits such clauses

user41796

@Ampt being involved in litigation against your employer tends to have a chilling effect upon future employment status there, yes

Ampt

suck it, employment contract

enderland

@Ampt eh it depends on what you care about, if you are changing jobs and then "violating your previous agreement" you don't care as much

Ampt

4:07 PM

@GlenH7 exactly. You've got a way better chance of keeping your job if you can kill it before it gets to that point (Illinois state law 765 ILCS 1060/1 prohibits you from filing this motion)

@enderland agreed, but we're talking about moonlighting here

enderland

Ah, true

Ampt

I would love to make extra cash on the side. I do not want to quit my day job

enderland

well it probably is also a sure-fire win for me at least, because this moonlighting is not even close to the same type of work/IP that I'd be developing at employer++

Ampt

yeah, and it sounds like they aren't even likely to press it

enderland

it'd be similar to a software dev doing woodworking on the side and their primary employer taking them to court (wat)

as long as it doesn't interfere with my current job, probably totally fine

Ampt

4:08 PM

My employer, however, has an entire division of contract lawyers employed solely by the company.

enderland

yeah. by consulting you are entering a gray area I don't have to worry about :)

since you are already a consultant, administratively

Ampt

Ummm not sure what you mean by that?

Like I'm not listed as a consultant on my contract or in taxes

I'm a full time, regular, salaried employee

I am, however, pimped out from time to time

enderland

@Ampt I mean administratively since you technically are not a consultant, but you pretty easily can be considered one

Ampt

@enderland huh.. never thought about that

whats the definition of consultant?

enderland

like, your employer would have an easier time considering you a consultant than my current or future one

Mathematics

4:11 PM

domain services can be used as application services ? if they both serve same purposes

Ampt

these words have ambiguous meanings. I'm not sure what your question is

Robert Harvey

If I went through a company's entire hiring process, we were all ready to go, and then they put something in front of me like one of those perpetual assignment agreements, I would be enormously peeved. "You just wasted a lot of everyone's time, because there's no way I can sign this."

fortune.com/2013/12/06/…

Mathematics

@RobertHarvey I didn't read this article yet, but sometimes people don't have any choice

Robert Harvey

Nobody should have to sell their soul to get a job.

user41796

Emphasis on should

Thomas Owens

4:24 PM

@RobertHarvey In a perfect world, yes. But everyone has bills to pay.

Mathematics

@RobertHarvey soul can't exists without food though for which job is a must - pretty tough situation for some

Thomas Owens

Or a need for the benefits, like insurance or a 401k.

user41796

Or needing to pay down tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt

Thomas Owens

@GlenH7 I'd group that in "bills to pay".

Mathematics

no one wants to talk about services, cuz it's Friday or people here usually don't have interest in them

Thomas Owens

4:25 PM

Someone fresh out of school would take a job to better position themselves - any job to get to a geographical area or break into a field or just to have money to make ends meet.

@Mathematics Services aren't interesting to me.

user41796

@ThomasOwens student loans are a bit of a different beast. You can wreck your credit rating and declare bankruptcy, which eliminates a lot of that debt. No can do with student loans

Robert Harvey

I need all of those things. But I'd get a tiny house before I signed my life away to some corporate entity.

user41796

@ThomasOwens West TX was looking attractive to me for a while for that exact reason

user41796

I mean, seriously now, doesn't that scream desperation?

user41796

@RobertHarvey That assumes you have assets you can leverage

Jimmy Hoffa

4:27 PM

@RobertHarvey you have to recognize, contracts aren't about enforceability, they're about starvation. It works like this: I put unenforceable clause in contract with you. You know it's not legally enforceable, so you happily sign. You violate this clause and now we play a game. The game work like this:

I take you to court because the clause being signed by both of us makes it *arguable* in court, whether enforceable or not doesn't matter.

If you can no longer pay court fees at any point during the game, you lose automatically and recoup none of the costs.

user41796

There's more than a few in the economic food chain whose only asset is their ass (metaphorically speaking)

user41796

I, for one, still remember what that was like

Robert Harvey

@GlenH7 Aye, that's the rub, isn't it? The people who have to sign their life away to corporate entities are the ones who live hand to mouth.

user41796

yep

Jimmy Hoffa

Also losing the game means you have to submit to the punitive damages in the contract.

Robert Harvey

4:31 PM

All very good reasons why you should never, ever sign such a thing.

ratchet freak

better to refuse that clause now and play the other game

Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey trueish. Some people need the scratch.. Imagine having a modern day CS degree school loan over your head? You think a job as bartender or waiter is going to be able to make those payments? Hope you enjoy eating dog food.

ratchet freak

can you sue if they try to make you sign an unenforceable agreement?

enderland

you guys are freaking me out about this sort of thing. thanks. :P

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak sure, just get your $10k in court necessities on hand for the lawyer and paperwork and process which you have available fresh out of college and go right ahead

ratchet freak

4:34 PM

praying on the weak

Jimmy Hoffa

(actually I don't think that such a suit can win, but it actually might.. it could be seen as a labor law violation that a job demands people sign an illegal contract before providing them a fair labor opportunity)

enderland

my IANAL understanding of this IP agreement makes it seem pretty reasonble

Jimmy Hoffa

@ratchetfreak it's all good, just swear fealty to your local Lord Business and he'll provide you land to live on (by way of pay check) for the length of time with which you're willing to produce for him or until he decides he no longer finds you a worthy serf for his peasantry. Do not anger your lord though...

enderland

the only "gotcha" is I have a year non-compete, but it basically reads like "we have really awesome proprietary processes that you can't just rip off and go implement/enhance on your own"

which realistically seems fair

Aaron Hall

@ratchetfreak if it's unenforceable, just sign, and then do what you want.

ratchet freak

4:39 PM

11 mins ago, by Jimmy Hoffa

@RobertHarvey you have to recognize, contracts aren't about enforceability, they're about starvation. It works like this: I put unenforceable clause in contract with you. You know it's not legally enforceable, so you happily sign. You violate this clause and now we play a game. The game work like this:

I take you to court because the clause being signed by both of us makes it *arguable* in court, whether enforceable or not doesn't matter.

If you can no longer pay court fees at any point during the game, you lose automatically and recoup none of the costs.

Aaron Hall

I had a friend who, when he was a minor, liked to sign up for those CD clubs where you get a bunch of free CD's up front, and then break the contracts, claiming he couldn't contract as a minor.

ratchet freak

doesn't mean you can't get sued and screwed out of money by way of legal fees and missed oportunities because of the threatening lawsuit

Aaron Hall

Yeah, but I don't think it makes sense to try to sue in advance

ratchet freak

they sue after you leave

user41796

@AaronHall How many times did he get away with that?

Aaron Hall

4:41 PM

Yeah, but you say it's unenforcable

I don't know how many times he did it, probably half a dozen times

ratchet freak

that just means that at the end of the line the judge will rule in your favor after a few years of (expensive) proceedings

user41796

@AaronHall Surprising that there were enough clubs he could pull that off with

Jimmy Hoffa

don't forget the fact that having on your background check show that you sued a previous employer means NO ONE ANYWHERE WILL HIRE YOU EVER AGAIN.

ratchet freak

at least if your lawyer isn't horrible

Aaron Hall

It is what it is, you choose, sign or don't sign.

Jimmy Hoffa

4:44 PM

so enjoy paying those court fees while unemployed and unemployable looking down the barrel of having to change careers entirely to non-professional work (no professional corporate industries will hire professionals with that in their history)

@AaronHall yeah, but the important point is: Don't violate it if you sign. "legal" Enforceability isn't relevant to the fact that you will absolutely be punished for violating it

ratchet freak

the only minor silver lining is that it becomes public that the company tried to enforce an unenforceable contract

Jimmy Hoffa

so? tons of companies do.

tons of companies make you sign them and tons of companies attempt to enforce them - we have organized industries but not organized labor and this is what it looks like: Their practices can be unscrupulous and we have no choice because they're doing it together as an organized union, but if ours are unscrupulous, they have a choice: Just choose another laborer.

Ampt

@ThomasOwens 'cept I can't claim bankruptcy to make these go away. They're with me forever.

argh, Glen beat me to it

@RobertHarvey Wish I had that option :P

user41796

@Ampt yep, been there, done that.

user41796

and don't be late!

Ampt

4:51 PM

and dont try and refinance. OR DO ANYTHING ELSE BECUASE WE OWN YOUR SOOOOOOOOOUL

sigh

Time to cry into my coffee and hammer away at my keyboard for the rest of the morning

Jimmy Hoffa

I really have very little understanding of how it's all worked out and I pray pray praaaay it never catches up with me, but my wife's school loan is just $175/month (for the rest of my life) which she got somehow negotiated back when she lost a job from medical issues years ago before we were married so Sally Mae or whatever it's called is still charging us a hardship-cost..

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa Is your wife a teacher/public worker?

Jimmy Hoffa

I think I'm paying zero principal, but whatever.

@Ampt nah she hasn't been able to work for years. She was a zoo keeper

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa huh. well hopefully they don't notice?

Jimmy Hoffa

Precisely.

Ampt

4:54 PM

this is why student loans suck

I mean your wife was in a good spot for a bankruptcy

but nope, not with student loans!

I mean your credit impact not-withstanding

enderland

ugh, academia pricing

Ampt

but if you go to school

get a job

get hurt and can't work anymore

why can't you file bankruptcy on that shit?

user41796

@Ampt Hey, you made promises about how the future was going to play out. Time to own up to those predictions, amirite?

Ampt

@GlenH7 That's the risk you take by giving out student loans to every tom dick and mary who had 1.5GPAs in highschool but want to go to princeton for neurosurgery

Do I appreciate the ability to secure loans to go to a private school? Yes, absolutely. Did I work hard to show my potential in highschool to make myself worthy of being accepted into a private school? you bet your ass I did.

user41796

Too bad we can't hold politicians to their promises in the same way. And they're the b*stards that took the "suggestions" from the finance / banking industry to write the laws that way.

enderland

4:57 PM

the problem with student loans is you have 17/18 year old kids taking out $100k worth of irrevocable debt with no clue about how that whole "life" thing works

Ampt

I understand that they are trying to provide the ability for anyone who wants to go to college the ability to do so - but they are also letting school spending get way out of hand, in addition to make everyone eligable for all the money they could possibly need

ratchet freak

the problem with student loans is that the school is so expensive

enderland

no 17 year old with 0 income and no money will ever get a mortgage, yet we let them basically get worse than a mortgage

user41796

@enderland I've seen that. And then I've seen that same kid at 23, 24 trying to buy a $200k+ condo downtown.

Ampt

@ratchetfreak that is the crux of it

enderland

4:58 PM

2 hours ago, by enderland

@KitZ.Fox academia is screwed up. :P

user41796

And the kid was a contractor without a guarantee of full time employment

Ampt

@enderland hence student loans not dissapearing with bankruptcy

the banks want security in their loans because the gov't has mandated that everyone is eligible for them

and because the price of schooling is out of hand

@enderland This was me, in a nutshell

pretty close on the numbers, too

user41796

@ratchetfreak public schools used to see a lot more support through tax dollars than what they do now. Didn't need student loans as badly for those schools.

user55340

2

A: A New Code License: The MIT, this time with Attribution Required

The core problem that all of this is intended to solve is that people are copying material from Stack Overflow into their code... and that the license for CC-BY-SA isn't ideal for code. The question behind this problem is "why are they copying the code?" Lets take an old post on SO: Apache PO...

enderland

@Ampt you won the lottery and did something useful though

Ampt

5:01 PM

@enderland Yeah. I got lucky with my choices and worked hard to get out of that hell hole

gah. I don't want to think about it. I'm just going to get a mortgage, buy a house, get some equity on that, then use that as collateral for a loan to pay off our loans.

BECAUSE THAT'S HOW AMERICA WORKS NOW

enderland

@GlenH7 engineering PhDs should pay you

I think at my university like $1700/month

not great, but not -$1700

Ampt

@JimmyHoffa what was that you said last night? Serfdom 2.0?

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ampt Feudalism

Ampt

@enderland provided you're doing research, and TA work

@JimmyHoffa Ah yes. Feudalism 2.0

Aaron Hall

@JimmyHoffa I sense that an awful lot more people get out of unenforceable contracts than you may think.

In fact, I think a lot of enforceable provisions of contracts are ignored by the signers. They're just there for if the relationship goes bad.

user41796

5:08 PM

@AaronHall The plaintiff has to weigh the likelihood of actually getting the damages if they are awarded

enderland

@AaronHall "hey you stole a lot of IP from us... remember this page of paper you said you shouldn't do?"

Jimmy Hoffa

@AaronHall the game is played the way I described. If the contract owner doesn't have significant means then yes, people make it out of them. It's all about the balance between contract signatorys wealth vs. contract violators. When the contract violator is a corporation and the contract signatory is an individual (such as when AT&T or Comcast violate contracts with individuals), the violator gets away with it even if it is enforceable. My point is enforceability isn't relevant.

user41796

And some of the time, a company will pursue a claim against an individual simply to eff with the individual regardless of whether they think damages will ever get paid

Jimmy Hoffa

@GlenH7 it's also common for them to maintain precedent. They'll sink a lot on the 1 in 1000 who violate it to keep the other 999 in line. That's the entire model the RIAA/MPAA take

user41796

IBM has long had its employees sign non-competes. And if you think about the breadth of their business, that could be pretty daunting

ratchet freak

5:11 PM

putting a rival out of business can be worth the 100k in legal fees you sink into the wrongful suit

user41796

IBM also routinely ignored that clause when employees left, so long as things were on good terms and it was obvious you weren't trying to steal IP from them.

user41796

So when you heard of them going after someone on a non-compete, you knew there was bad blood

Aaron Hall

@GlenH7 there you go.

user41796

@ratchetfreak Oh, absolutely. And sometimes a poor choice in hiring can present the opportunity for one company to take a serious bite out of another

user41796

"Hey! Thanks for the opportunity to smack you as hard as I can!"

Jimmy Hoffa

5:12 PM

^^^ See amazon vs. google vs. apple

psr

@KitZ.Fox So they really are getting a lot better?

user41796

@JimmyHoffa each company is different is all I'm saying

Jimmy Hoffa

@psr there needs to be a sound associated with this skill. Like a wa-sheeng! as the ninja steals across the screen

user41796

@JimmyHoffa And because this is public internets chatting, that I'm obviously right and you're horribly, horribly wrong.

user41796

Can't allow any sense of reason into this

Jimmy Hoffa

5:14 PM

@GlenH7 it's ok, my wife frequently reminds me I'm never right so I'm used to it

2

Aaron Hall

I starred that because I thought it looks awesome out of context.

Anyways, I think key people know who they are and where they have no hope of beating a noncompete, so I don't think it's necessary to emphasize their perspective.

user41796

Sr. VP over development jumping ship to a rival's shop doesn't elicit any sympathy from you when they get whacked with a non-compete?

psr

@Brandin If you then won a lawsuit against Encyclopedia Britannica's owner company in court then you are correct. If not then we don't know for sure.

Aaron Hall

@GlenH7 to me that's the grey area

enderland

heh my company has "preferred suppliers" apparently for consultants

and "enderland's shop of awesomeness" is probably not one of them

user41796

5:22 PM

@enderland solves more problems for you than you may realize

enderland

@GlenH7 yeah. I mean, I could go through a supplier... but that'd be lame and they probably would want a % off the top that would make me cry

Aaron Hall

Brokerage firms got tired of spending so much litigating over hiring away financial advisors and getting sued for "stealing customers/customer info" that they created a protocol that provided rules for poaching without getting sued.

user41796

@enderland You would definitely cry. I've seen the cuts they prefer to take. And they won't lower the rate even when you've done all the legwork to set up the contract.

user41796

@AaronHall I don't know that the programming field will ever get to that level of maturity

enderland

@GlenH7 yeah, well. I could tell my current employer "the rate I want is X, but we have to use supplier so it'd have to be Y" :P

Brandin

5:27 PM

I just don't understand the copying code from Stackoverflow problem. Ever notice how programming books also include code, but never bother to include a license statement for said code? Why is that? It's because people simply don't copy code from programming books. That's not what it's for. They use it to learn, but then that's it. It's all over. You graduated and you may write your own code now.

Aaron Hall

I think it's an imagined problem.

enderland

@GlenH7 anyone who does engineering grad school fulltime and doesn't have an RA/TA/fellowship is insane

Aaron Hall

writes JS extension that preserves deleted content from SE chat

user41796

@enderland Agreed

user41796

@AaronHall Already exists as a scriptlet

enderland

5:30 PM

@GlenH7 no he means to avoid the deleting

user41796

Mwah ha ha ha ha! Never!

enderland

ok deleting all info in Chrome, later kids!

Aaron Hall

(removed)

ratchet freak

@AaronHall become a mod and you can see all deleted content from SE chat (or a room owner to see it in a single room)

Aaron Hall

in Python on Stack Overflow Chat, yesterday, by Aaron Hall

Superego: "With great power comes great responsibility."
Id: "Great power is great! You can do whatever you want! Weeee!"
Ego: "Would you two shut up?"

user41796

5:39 PM

@AaronHall And having a diamond lets you more easily sweat through threats of suspension from Yannis

user55340

@Brandin programming books are not providing code as a solution that exactly fits in the problem you asked.

Brandin

I'm still waiting for the actual instance of someone "actually" copying code from here. It just doesn't happen.

user41796

I'll say it another way - this site doesn't taking coding problems like your question. — GlenH7 5 mins ago

user41796

I have no idea how gnat puts up with all of the replies he gets on his comments. After the above exchange, I'm already ready to give up on commenting again.

whatsisname

how do I let myself get in discussions in imgur comment sections, what a complete waste of time and effort

Jimmy Hoffa

5:51 PM

@Brandin WAT?? haha oh you are so misinformed..

@Brandin how's the view from top that ivory tower? ;P

Kit Z. Fox

@psr Yes.

Jimmy Hoffa

I've seen people copy directly (even brag about it!) from SO and paste it before without so much as reading proclaiming: "See you don't need to know everything about coding, you just google it and SO gives me everything I need!" <-- Many many folks revel in their ignorance

Brandin

People mention this supposed problem without any actual evidence? Well, where is it? The story you mention sounds like a bunch of college kids trying to complete an assignment. I'm talking about real programmers programming in the real.

Jimmy Hoffa

anytime I pull a code snippet from somewhere I completely deconstruct it and rewrite it in my own words

@Brandin ... so am I. I've seen this from people wearing the title of Sr. Engineer in companies I've worked at.

Kit Z. Fox

> As a user, I want to know the availability level of a product so that I can decide if I want to buy it.

Know what I suck at?

This.

Jimmy Hoffa

5:55 PM

Seriously, the industry is a vast place with many different cultures and approaches to the task of software development. There is no normal. You've apparently worked in some amount of uniform places that gave you the incorrect impression that there's a commonality to software shops- There's not. Each one is different in so many ways.

@KitZ.Fox that's actually a pretty good user story. It's got a clear value proposition and doesn't dictate approach so engineers can solve it in the way that provides the most value that they can come up with.

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah. If you only knew the backstory.

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox I never liked them, but justin timberlake turned out to be a good actor anyway.

Kit Z. Fox

The real user story is "As a product owner, I want to display an availability label so that I don't get sued by our distributor."

whatsisname

yeah I've never copied a wholesale chunk of code from SO but I have frequently taken snip-snippets and modified them to fit my purposes

Jimmy Hoffa

@KitZ.Fox ... well that's a completely different value proposition, and story A is not likely to cause engineers to provide value proposition for story B...

Kit Z. Fox

5:58 PM

So now you understand my consternation.

user41796

@Brandin I can echo Jimmy's experience. I've seen people proud to blatantly copy & paste from SO

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