The Whiteboard

8:00 PM

@Ampt I'm working from home but 5 currently means diddly to me because I have a pile of work to get done regardless. At least I don't have to deal with shitty traffic from working late :/

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox Wasn't trying to offend. I'm just about ready to headdesk

nothing is getting done today by anyone in my office

Kit Z. Fox

It's Friday. Don't make me link the video.

Ampt

Frack. You.

user15026

@KitZ.Fox Please don't, the Bridge does that to me often enough.

Thomas Owens

GOTTA GET DOWN ON FRIDAY

Ampt

8:01 PM

SAdfkjlasdjfasd

gasf

Kit Z. Fox

Love you. blows kisses

user15026

(It's like a game in there of how often people can get other people to click the link, to the point where there is a mnemonic for remembering the common URL for the video...)

Thomas Owens

@Ampt Doesn't load at work.

@AshleyNunn There is?

Kit Z. Fox

Friday - Language warning.

Ampt

how do you upload to stack imgur?

Jimmy Hoffa

8:03 PM

@Ampt ...the upload button next to the send button

UGH SLIGHTLY OUT OF SYNC

somebody delete something

user15026

@ThomasOwens well, we made one

user41796

Stupid gifs

Kit Z. Fox

Ah better.

Thomas Owens

I saw it.

Thanks.

Ampt

Ugh, I'm gonna put Glen out the airlock next.

Jimmy Hoffa

8:04 PM

@KitZ.Fox I'm still proud of my kid at 5 when talking about different forms of energy and what they do to different things he intuited that on water kinetic energy causes waves. His teacher was baffled when he explained thermal energy causes water to evaporate

Kit Z. Fox

Is it the new rickroll?

@JimmyHoffa Nice! It's so mind-blowing when the grasp it and then apply it like that.

Jimmy Hoffa

don't think he's said anything about black holes though.. frankly that's above my pay grade

Ampt

wait you get paid to have kids?

BRB

Kit Z. Fox

This little one is particularly interested in space. At mini-space camp, he asked the NASA guy all about exoplanets.

The eldest asked about solar flares.

But the eldest is a mathy kid and wants to learn all the maths. He also thinks he should write code too.

Jimmy Hoffa

Dispel him of that, explain how it involves being a slave to people who don't even understand maths. ;D sarcasm

Kit Z. Fox

8:07 PM

I've tried doing some code stuff with him, but I suck at teaching programming concepts. I was just too adequate at coding. No real talent for it. Not like math and science.

Plus Minecraft is all Java based and I take forever at that.

Ampt

Java is OK, but I would say python is best for simple programming concepts

java has so much... cruft

it's a very verbose language

or if you want him to grow up into a mocha-cappacino sipping hipster, teach him ruby!

Kit Z. Fox

I showed him some python way back when I was coding virtual environments, but he was too young to type coherently.

@Ampt oh god no

user41796

@KitZ.Fox you can use javascript with command blocks in minecraft

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Yes, he's excited to tell me so.

Ampt

@GlenH7 oh really?

Kit Z. Fox

8:10 PM

He prefers to install mods. Luckily, he's gotten pretty good at doing it himself, and is smart enough to ask to make sure he's not downloading anything malicious.

user41796

@Ampt yeah, been there for quite a while AFAIK

Ampt

Did they ever figure out that whole copyright fiasco?

that's kind of where I stopped keeping up with the modding meta

user41796

bukkit is dead. Long live spigot

Thomas Owens

Oh, Minecraft had a copyright fiasco, too?

Ampt

interesting.

@ThomasOwens huge one, yeah.

user41796

8:11 PM

bukkit hangs in there as a forum, but that's about it as far as I can tell

Ampt

killed off the biggest modded server project

user41796

And compatibility between spigot / craftbukkit has been okay but not great

user41796

a couple of the really big mods just rolled over and said "eff it" with the death of craftbukkit

user41796

I should be saying craftbukkit, not bukkit

user41796

as bukkit is just an API and there's nothing to kill there

Jimmy Hoffa

8:14 PM

argh... got up too early..crashing..everything fading..fading..

user41796

I can't find which of the mods I'm running has declared itself as dead

Jimmy Hoffa

dark chocolate covered espresso beans save me..

user41796

Those notes are at home and I don't care enough to search that hard

Kit Z. Fox

Is there a preference for positive over negative user stories? e.g., is it usual to frame them as I want instead of I don't want or does it matter?

user41796

positive seems to be the norm

Ampt

8:16 PM

@KitZ.Fox usually it's I want

I don't see negated stories ever, really

Jimmy Hoffa

I think I don't want wouldn't even work

user41796

exclusions (I don't want) would be details to the "I want"

user41796

@JimmyHoffa I don't want to think about it.

Jimmy Hoffa

it's about describing a value proposition; somebody want's something.

Kit Z. Fox

> As a user, I don't want you to keep messing with the interface so that I can finally determine what symbols carry meaning.

:D

Jimmy Hoffa

8:17 PM

> As a gouging jerkface, I want to ensure nobody can sue me, so that I can steal from them safely

user41796

As a user, I don't want you to keep moving my cheese.

user41796

sed s/safely/with plausible deniability/

Jimmy Hoffa

As a user, I want the cheese to be in the same place every time, because I'm huuuuuungry

Kit Z. Fox

I'm having trouble with this one because I feel like it's supposed to be "as a user" but it's really "as a marketer".

Ampt

then make it "as a marketer"

Kit Z. Fox

8:19 PM

> As a customer service representative, I want the user to contact me with questions about this product series so that I can give them specific conditions.

Eh. Not sure.

It's hard trying to write these without thinking about the solutions we've already agreed to.

I think I need a class in this.

> Somehow expressing requirements in such a simple form causes a lot of trouble to agile teams. - See more at: scrumalliance.org/community/articles/2011/august/…

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox Whoa, hold on. You should be defining your requirements before coming up with your solutions.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens I already did that.

That's the problem. I was halfway through requirements gathering when I received the dictum to convert to Agile.

Thomas Owens

Ah.

That makes more sense.

Ampt

the only solution is to delete all your reqs documents

Kit Z. Fox

I'm sure it will be easier where I'm starting from scratch.

The requirements were set and a solution was agreed on, but I don't know how to put the agree upon solution into the new format. It's backing up into it and I'm terrible at that. The trailer always goes the wrong way.

Ampt

8:30 PM

I hear ford has a new piece of tech that helps with that

Kit Z. Fox

Yes. I laughed when I saw the commercial.

If you can't backup in your big-ass truck, you oughtn't have it.

imo

Ampt

eh, if it helps the GF get the trailer down the boat ramp so I don't have to do both things...

granted I'm not on the market for a new truck, but I have seen plenty of trailers ruined that way haha

Kit Z. Fox

fair enough. I'm just being snobby.

Ampt

We all are today apparently

Kit Z. Fox

I'm excessively cold. I don't like my attitude much right now either.

Ampt

8:33 PM

not enough SCOTCH and too much thumb twiddling

whatsisname

who needs requirements

Kit Z. Fox

I could get some bourbon from downstairs. Maybe it's a pizza night.

whatsisname

just freestyle everything and bill hourly

user41796

I love the fact that there's a backup camera associated with those

Ampt

If it makes you feel any better, I'd still let you wear me into the damp garage

user41796

8:34 PM

Just watched a video of the ford backup trailer tech. That's freaking amazing

Kit Z. Fox

@Ampt Uh...

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox I mean your other 3 feet are going to be cold

user41796

@KitZ.Fox he's a sock after all

Ampt

but what can a single sock do?

Kit Z. Fox

Foxes don't wear socks.

Well, there was that one, I guess...

Ampt

8:35 PM

but imagine how comfy you would be if you did

user41796

@KitZ.Fox kinda famous too

Aaron Hall

Hi guys!

Ampt

@GlenH7 pretty neat, eh?

Kit Z. Fox

I am rather fond of socks.

Hi @Aaron.

user15026

@Ampt Parasite just got hella weird.

user41796

8:35 PM

@Ampt That's really really amazing

Kit Z. Fox

Can I ask some more help on user stories? Anybody feeling it?

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox you can always ask in here

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox I have a few minutes.

Aaron Hall

I think you're all really cool and amazing people, and I like you a lot.

Thomas Owens

Need to leave in about 15.

Ampt

8:36 PM

no guarantees we answer :)

Kit Z. Fox

OK.

user15026

@Ampt Not that kind of weird, no. Just like "Frankenstein science" weird.

Kit Z. Fox

I don't want to wear out my welcome is all.

Ampt

@AshleyNunn ooooh

Kit Z. Fox

First, here's the user story:

> As a user, I want the action item label to clearly communicate what I can do with this product so that I understand the call to action.

My so that isn't really measurable.

user41796

8:37 PM

@AaronHall Did you leave your computer unlocked?

Ampt

@KitZ.Fox pah. no one here is ever welcome. we just put up with eachother long enough that we learn the signs we're all crazy

Aaron Hall

Me? No. :)

user41796

@KitZ.Fox meh, when I have to unsuspend the folk you kick, then we'll talk about wearing out your welcome. ;-)

Thomas Owens

@KitZ.Fox That's right. It's not measurable. What is "clear"? How do you know if someone understands something? And I don't know what "call to action" refers to, but it could be a domain term that is well understood.

Kit Z. Fox

What I'm trying to get to is "here are all the new action item labels".

Again, backing into it as I mentioned.

Ampt

8:38 PM

@KitZ.Fox As a user I want to be able to quickly find the action item I want

Kit Z. Fox

There's just one action item per product. Hopefully finding it is not a problem.

Ampt

or I want to be able to discern which labels lead to which action items without a lot of reading

user41796

available actions highlighted

user41796

unavailable actions dimmed

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 I don't think I have done that...

user41796

8:39 PM

@KitZ.Fox Just looking down the line is all... :-)

Kit Z. Fox

OK. That's fair.

user15026

Besides, they put up with me, so....

user41796

@AshleyNunn um, cupcakes and cookies and other baked goods, duh. :-)

Kit Z. Fox

There's one action item per product, but each product has a different action depending on its status.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox How do they select the action item then?

Kit Z. Fox

8:40 PM

So some items have Place Order and some are Pre-Order Now and some are Register Interest.

user15026

@GlenH7 Well, @WorldEngineer is the only one to actually have tasted anything I've baked, so I am kinda weak on that front

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 They click it.

user41796

@AshleyNunn He's ruthless about suspending anyone who disagrees with him, so we all know better than to argue :-D

user41796

@KitZ.Fox but is there an array of buttons or just one button?

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 One button. What it does depends on the status of the product.

user15026

8:41 PM

@GlenH7 Ah, I see how it is :) It's like I have diplomatic immunity then :P

Kit Z. Fox

And the label needs to tell the user what to expect when they click it.

user41796

So maybe have the button text or some text near the button be updated based upon Foo

user41796

2 mins ago, by GlenH7

@AshleyNunn um, cupcakes and cookies and other baked goods, duh. :-)

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Right. I'm talking about the user story that gets us there.

user41796

No need for diplomatic immunity

Kit Z. Fox

8:42 PM

We already know the labels we want to change them to and the conditions for each label.

user41796

"As a user, I want the text field near the Complete Action button to be update to reflect what action will actually be completed"

Kit Z. Fox

That sounds like what I wrote.

user15026

I still need to make those cupcakes at some point.

Kit Z. Fox

Only more dev and less bizspeak.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox and less subjective terms

Thomas Owens

8:43 PM

OK, I'm out. Have a good weekend, Programmers.

Kit Z. Fox

@ThomasOwens Thanks!

user41796

"I want the button text changed based upon the action to complete" (simple version) is measurable and clearly states the expectation

user41796

how the button text changes? Don't care - that's for devs to figure out

Kit Z. Fox

what's the so that part?

user41796

And supporting cases for "if this then that" are just business rules to add to the use case

Ixrec

8:45 PM

I assume "so that it's clear what the button will do" would suffice

that is the purpose of changing the text, right?

user41796

or "so I know what action will be completed"

Kit Z. Fox

I thought that's what I said, but it's fine, I can work through that. After that user story, how do I specify "here are the business rules and labels"? Is that a task or a user story or I don't know how to connect the pieces of what I have together.

user41796

@KitZ.Fox We just list those rules after the user story but within the PBI for the story itself

user41796

"As a ... blah blah blah" and then "if this then that ..."

user41796

But we don't get too hung up over exact formalities

user41796

8:48 PM

We'll leave out the "so ..." part if it doesn't make sense to a story

Kit Z. Fox

OK. I can attach this list to this work item then.

user41796

And the difference between my suggestion and the draft ("I want the action item label to clearly communicate what I can do with this product") you put out is mine doesn't have "clearly communicate" requiring interpretation as to what is expected

user41796

@KitZ.Fox yes, exactly

Kit Z. Fox

@GlenH7 Yeah, I re-read it. I get you.

OK. Ima leave it and come back around on Monday with a clearer head. Thanks for the help.

user41796

it's a fine line between asking for what you want and telling how you want it, but I think in this case it's simpler to just say "I want X to occur"

Kit Z. Fox

8:52 PM

I wish I were better at this faster.

Ixrec

the traditional user story format is more useful for new features than it is for bug fixes and small UX tweaks

user41796

We used to have a product owner who wanted the DB schema because they wanted to incorporate that level of detail into the user stories

Kit Z. Fox

As a BA, I want to be skilled at writing user stories so that I can contribute to team success.

user41796

Needless to say, I had a number of "crucial confrontations" where I explained they didn't need that knowledge

Kit Z. Fox

Yeah, that's design.

Which I'm usually elbow deep in. So separating the things is hard for me.

user41796

8:54 PM

They used to be a dev on the team and couldn't let go of that past. But there had been many, many years between any active dev work and them becoming a product owner

Kit Z. Fox

For me, it's that I feel I contribute to the design process because I have a broader understanding than the devs do about the integrated components.

Not to mention I have more history with the product than any of them do, so there is that kind of knowledge as well.

Aaron Hall

@KitZ.Fox that creates value for the shareholders.

user41796

That's where parentheticals at the end of the user story description can be helpful

Kit Z. Fox

But I don't want to butt in on their flow.

user41796

"You may want to look at Foo.Bar() as that handles something similar to what this is asking for"

user41796

8:57 PM

or "Foo.Bar() already does this for Baz and probably ought to be modified to handle Qux"

Kit Z. Fox

I just realized that I'm the senior team member (aside from the project lead).

user41796

which shares your knowledge but doesn't presuppose to tell them what to do

Kit Z. Fox

I've worked here for two years and this is an enterprise project.

@GlenH7 That's good advice. Thanks.

user41796

yw

Ixrec

what Glen said, that's pretty much what my team lead does too

user41796

8:59 PM

and it's a good way of sharing knowledge but also accepting that the code base continues to change and your expertise in those areas will fade as more changes roll in

Kit Z. Fox

I feel like the devs aren't taking ownership of the design process.

user41796

Or can be used to preserve architecture on a large code base

user41796

@KitZ.Fox Agile is horrific for encouraging ownership IMO

Ixrec

a lot of my team lead's recommendations are only sort of semi-applicable to what I'm doing since he's not as familiar with this part of the codebase, so if I had to get his total agreement every time a lot of time would get wasted

@GlenH7 depends what you mean by "ownership", what kind of ownership are you talking about?

user41796

Agile is too frequently used as a thin veneer of process over cowboy coding

Ixrec

9:00 PM

oh that "agile"

Aaron Hall

@Ixrec you are paid to know, just be right. :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec did you grab KF2 and give it a shot?

Ixrec

nope

Kit Z. Fox

@Ixrec Ownership like the opposite of "Just tell me what you want me to do." + pouting and sulking + post-implementation eye-rolling and judgment.

Ixrec

I didn't say I'd grab it that day lol

Jimmy Hoffa

9:02 PM

@Ixrec I find your lack of faith disturbing

Aaron Hall

We are the ones who know.

Ixrec

I have Doctor Who to watch!

and Halo 5 to play

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec perfect, time to let Steam download while you watch it then. Is magic, see?

Ixrec

well the episode did just end with the alien that feeds on the evil of our minds getting away because apparently it can teleport itself too

so great time to go fiddle with Steam

"You do not have enough disk space available to run this game"

=(

user41796

It's a ~~trap~~ sign

Ixrec

9:10 PM

I have made space

user41796

You didn't want that system swap file anyway

user41796

Many years ago, I built some servers that didn't need system swap files, so I turned them off. That raised some eyebrows

Ampt

As a developer, I want it to be 5 oclock so I can go home.

durron597

hai guyz

happy coffee friday!

user41796

@Ampt need. beer. thirty

user41796

9:16 PM

@durron597 Our blessed coffee of perpetual energy has failed us. We're reverting to the only known good. Booze.

durron597

need some advice from teh guruz in here

@GlenH7 (not scotch?)

user41796

FTFMe

durron597

here is the situation: marketing wants to get some information about how many people are watching our show for how long

Ixrec

oh you guys have a show too

user41796

@durron597 If it involves webcams and tracking eyeballs, it's not worth it

durron597

9:18 PM

I maintain a redshift database (think: postgresql) that records various kinds of events for show start and heartbeat and such

with obfuscated user session_id

our video player also maintains viewer metrics using a totally independent system

i have no control over this code or this database in any way

the problem is that our queries of what is essentially

select count(distinct session_id) from data where show = 'showWeAreAnalyzing" and time between 'showStart' and 'showEnd')

disagree

user41796

Are these on-demand shows? Or fixed showing time?

durron597

they're live shows, fixed time

we analyze VOD views also, but that's a different topic and not one i am supposed to investigate.

user41796

and you've verified with other events that system clocks agree?

durron597

@GlenH7 clock disagreement is not something i had considered.

i'll look into that

user41796

Always check system time first

durron597

9:22 PM

i think both servers sync to the same NTP

user41796

And for that matter, give your show event start / stop times some hedged values, see what comes back

durron597

the disagreement is off by a very large amount though, 30% in some cases

Ixrec

I was also going to ask if the time interval endpoints are included/excluded and whether that might affect either source

user41796

@durron597 I have a story along those lines...

user41796

After you have verified times, verify counts on distinct session ids regardless of time

user41796

9:23 PM

could also verify raw event counts

durron597

okay, so the advice you're giving me, while good, is a very specific theory based on good experience

user41796

i.e. 1M events starts in system A for show.Foo should have 1M event starts in system B...

user41796

@durron597 yes, been burned many times

durron597

but i was actually going to ask about a more generic approach (e.g. without assuming we know what's causing it in the first place)

everything i've tried to diagnose this has been that same "guess what might be wrong and check"

Ixrec

I doubt you can get any more generic than Glen's suggestion, he basically enumerated every part of your sample SQL query

user41796

9:25 PM

Well, you're asking about verifying referential integrity between separate data stores...

durron597

but that really doesn't seem like a good approach

Ixrec

well, the good approach is to have a single source of truth

durron597

@Ixrec Say for example that they have a bug where x% of events aren't getting saved

Ixrec

but it sounds like that's out of your control

user41796

@durron597 The level of experience required to know what to hunt is what partially justifies our paychecks

user41796

9:26 PM

@durron597 See above about matching raw event counts

durron597

(our session id counts have been higher typically)

they also don't save the same events as us

user41796

At that point, you're essentially doing black box testing between two systems

durron597

our database has show started events for people but doesn't have heartbeat events for those same people

user41796

And it boils down to your experience in order to break them apart for comparison

durron597

things like that make me not trust our system

so there really is no way to do a generic diagnostic process here? that's what i was afraid of

user41796

9:28 PM

referential integrity between disparate systems fed with disparate inputs is a crazy hard problem to solve

Ixrec

this sounds like the sort of question we'd close on the main site with a comment to the effect of "If there is such a method, write a book about it and you'll make millions"

durron597

@Ixrec i'm sure my manager and my PM will love that answer.

user41796

Proper control system theory may have a better answer, but I don't have enough depth in that field to say for sure

Ixrec

I'm sure that theory relies on having some inner knowledge of both systems anyway

user41796

But it doesn't sound like anyone has validated that they systems operate identically

user41796

9:29 PM

@Ixrec Likely yes. But I suspect we can assume grey box instead of black at that point

enderland

@Ampt yeah because that would never be abused EVER. pretty much throw the idea away if you have kids, too ;)

Ampt

@enderland you can limit the number of orders per hour or day or something like that

enderland

you guys typed like 500 messages from when I left earlier today. what the heck lol

Ampt

and you get instant notifications

Ixrec

only 500? we're not trying very hard today

user41796

9:32 PM

@psr that was pin worthy

enderland

Hey I'm technically being paid right now thank you very much

user41796

Whatevs

enderland

apparently I have some vacation that they are going to pay out too, which I don't get since I tried and thought I used all my vaca

probably forgot like 4 hours or something stupid

durron597

update: we have a third data source that is neither my javascript nor the player - it is the site itself that records homepage impressions

that number is very close to mine

like, within 1% of mine

user41796

Can any of them be declared as the one and only absolute truth?

user41796

9:37 PM

aka "biblical", "golden", ...

durron597

well, if someone loads the page and then closes it before the player launches, are they a viewer?

user41796

I dunno - that's your biz rules, not mine

durron597

i'm now wondering if everyone is right, perhaps

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 how big is the disagreement? Have you measured to see if it's just some network latency between communicable pieces?

durron597

just the events get reported differently in different scenarios

Jimmy Hoffa

9:38 PM

alternatively, Timezones?

Ixrec

do think it's most likely that they're all right, the real question is what is the other source measuring

durron597

also, the video player metrics don't have accurate time because they only record client timestamps

Ixrec

the assumption that the video player works at all ought to put an upper limit on how far off the timestamps could be

durron597

the BIE i just spoke to told me that he actually runs his query on the entire day because the video player only records events when the show is running; it cannot and does not record events when the show is off

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 so basically, you have 2 scales, they're both measuring different things, but one of them is a black box and you don't know if your scale should measure what that one is measuring, or the other way around, but you're pretty sure one of them needs recalibrating because they should be giving back the same metrics

durron597

9:40 PM

so he's comparing my javascript heartbeats (which don't need the show) in the narrow time range to the entire lifetime of the show id

user41796

Realistically speaking, you ought to list "here are the limiting factors" once you eliminate braindead stupid stuff like servers on different times. And from there, you can determine a percent error between systems. That's as close to the truth as you can get.

user41796

but it's gravy if you can get 2 of n systems to be somewhat close to each other as it provides more confidence in the numbers

durron597

and mine are 10% higher

my javascript fires off a heartbeat as soon as you hit the page

comparing that against page loads from the webpage framework itself should be pretty darn close - basically you have to have javascript turned off to get one and not the other. or load the page and immediately change tabs

Jimmy Hoffa

@durron597 why is this relevant? I mean, is there an actual problem arising from this? Or is it just people asking questions?

Or is someone making a stink that your data is wrong?

durron597

@JimmyHoffa marketing wants to know the integrity of the data so they can do what marketing does

they aren't criticizing engineering, they just want to know what the truth is

it matters to marketing whether we had 100, 1000, 10000 or 100000 viewers

Jimmy Hoffa

9:44 PM

so asking questions. I think you need to step away from the engineering and put on your employee-helping-business hat and say "Well, X is accurate per proof Y, A is coming from team N, B is coming from team I, and the accuracy of those are shown in their teams proofs... If their proofs are not detailed enough, we should speak with them about how they're guaranteeing their accuracy or what caveats they're facing on a technical front to being accurate"

user41796

@durron597 You can't handle the truth!

user41796

obligatory

Ixrec

also ask whether it matters if you had 1000 views versus 1500 views

Jimmy Hoffa

iffin you haven't got a (laymans) explanation of your guarantees (with tests proving them), then work on that. Then it's a matter of comparing your guarantees to other teams and communicating those distinctions to marketing.

granted you don't know what other teams data is showing precisely because you didn't do their work, but presumably they can (or will be made to) work with you insofar as having a chat about the details of their measurement process.

Sounds like one of those, setup a meeting with some people and get ironed out precisely what they're doing, and detail what you're doing, then send a report of those things to marketing.

Ampt

@Ixrec Also ask if it's 5 oclock yet

Jimmy Hoffa

9:48 PM

but most importantly; prove your guarantees in case any other teams come back to you with "No, ours are perfect and yours are wrong" so you can say "Well, this code here shows what I explained is accurately reflected; where's your test proving your guarantees?"

Nick Alexeev

Folks, how can I find out about Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) support in various versions of Windows?
For example, I know that Android can do central and observer roles since Android 4.3, peripheral and broadcaster roles since Android 5.0 . When it comes to windows, I only know that before Win 8 there was no built-in support for BLE at all. Did Win 8 support all BLE roles? Did anything change with the advent of Win 10?
How could I find this kind of historical overview for Windows?
I’m looking at it from a standpoint of an app developer.

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa how exactly does one prove that sort of thing, short of setting up several different measurements for the same number and checking they all match?

Ampt

@NickAlexeev isn't BLE more of a physical thing?

most windows devices suck down enough juice where BLE is negligible

but I'm talking out my ass because ITS ALMOST 5OCLOCK AND I WANT TO GO HOME

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec it's about proving your guarantees - not your measurements. You have to define those: We guarantee to have a start time measurement within X of their browser visitation, and ending timestamp within X of their closure, these measurements will utilize client-request times, not server-connection times, yatta yatta

Ixrec

ah, right

Nick Alexeev

9:53 PM

@Ampt Of course it BLE has a physical component. But the OS has to have the API (abstraction layer) for it so that the applications can get to the hardware functionality. (Windows didn't have an API for BLE until Win 8. There were 3rd party vendor-specific APIs, though.)

Ampt

> Mobile operating systems including iOS, Android, Windows Phone and BlackBerry, as well as OS X, Linux, and Windows 8, natively support Bluetooth Smart.

wikipedia says yes

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec the point is that set of guarantees is what's being mismatched (presuming the other systems are not erroneous) which is what needs to be reporting to marketing: Our data guarantees X, but this teams data guarantees Y. Theirs is good for knowing {g,h,i}, ours is good for knowing {l,m,n}. They will match in event of A, they will not match when B occurs.

Nick Alexeev

@Ampt Wikipedia paints with broad strokes (well, at least they mentioned 8). I want gory details. ;)

Ampt

@NickAlexeev brb, turning safesearch off

Nick Alexeev

@Ampt I was hoping to find something in MSDN. No luck yet. There are some tantalizing links that go to developer.nokia.com, but that resource has been turned off by MS.

durron597

10:09 PM

@JimmyHoffa This is really good, thanks

user55340

10:29 PM

Apparently hidden 10k tool: programmers.stackexchange.com/tools/post-feedback/…

user55340

The anon post feedback. What people who come from google think is useful or not.

user55340

All time least helpful:

user55340

21

Q: How many types of programming languages are there?

Basically, I want to learn lots of programming languages to become a great programmer. I know only a handful to depth and I was hoping someone could elaborate on how many classes or types of programming languages there are. Like how you would lump them together if you had to learn them in group...

programming-languages

user55340

10:44 PM

Fwiw, the MSE license question: +89/-1415 in anon and low rep feedback.

Ixrec

oh yeah, I need to check how that's doing

the one time I looked at it it was at +24/-26

I see they got the hint

durron597

@MichaelT Wow. This question has almost 2500 votes from unregistered users: stackoverflow.com/questions/9604744/…

Ixrec

10:57 PM

have you ever thought "I should upvote this post" then scrolled up to discover you already had?

user15026

@MichaelT How do you know that? :)

Jimmy Hoffa

@Ixrec more than once. The more rare occurrence has been "I have something to say about this post!" Scroll down and find an answer I wrote a year ago o_o

Ixrec

@JimmyHoffa on one or two occasions I've had that happen in the form of a comment, so far never an answer

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