The Factory Floor

Pᴇᴛᴇ

13:31

I freely admit that I'll feel like an idiot when someone answers this. But, is there a name for someone who is numerically literate (someone as opposed to knowing nothing about math/numbers). I did think about 'numerologist', but that's just 'astrologist' with a different hat...

Green

a mathematician?

Also, single-sourced Madagascar dark chocolate for breakfast is an excellent way to start the day.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

A mathematician would be a profession though...? I just have a question in my head and want to formulate some words.

Basically, the ruling class of a settlement knows about maths, but the general population don't. Therefore the ruling class controls trading/divination/astronomy etc... Stuff that people without a concept of maths wouldn't be able to handle.

Green

13:50

@Pᴇᴛᴇ It's absolutely a profession.

dot_Sp0T

Just invent a fancy word if you don't like those that exist

Green

I think that falls under the dichotomy of literate/illiterate. If you know math, you can also very likely read.

Scribe or clerk would be someone who can read (and maybe do math).

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I thought it might be one of those obvious words that you know you know, but you forget entirely until someone reminds you. Yes, I need a math version of literate or linguist.

I might have to suck it up and call them "Accountants"....

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Well, if you want the common illiterate people to hate them (and your reader to hate them too), Accountants is a great name.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Ok, so I have this thought of a Neolithic settlement (or group of settlements) who are ruled/governed by the Accountants. Normal people aren't taught math, so the Accountants govern trading and keep track of the seasons etc. So I'm trying to wrestle with the idea of rebelling against the accountants. How could someone trick the system without appearing to know math?

Green

14:01

Said another way, "How could an illiterate commoner do trade?" I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve.

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Me too, to be honest. I'm just trying to formulate some kind of conflict between the matheliterate and the non math.

Green

@Pᴇᴛᴇ I'm not sure much formulation is required. This is a classic Haves vs Have-Nots. Anyone who can trade can get rich. Anyone who can read a contract and understand what it means will have an advantage over those who can't.

A child born to literate parents will do better than a child born to illiterate parents.

There's also a strong in-group bias by those who can do math against those who can't.

It won't take much for there to be resentment between the two groups.

dot_Sp0T

14:23

@Pᴇᴛᴇ Umbwanga no like cold weather, Umbwanga will be tribe boss and make weather always warm and good for crops?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

lol. Umbawanga good!

dot_Sp0T

Btw anybody on here versed in military history? E.g. stuff on NATO and such?

(I admit I have issues with the word neolithic)

Green

@dot_Sp0T Those are really broad topics but I've got some exposure. What's the question?

dot_Sp0T

@Green does the NATO have own forces? and if yes since when / how are they organized

Pᴇᴛᴇ

NATO isn't really a force in itself. It's a collection of member states all having armed forces. It's not like the United Nations.

I'm pretty sure that's the case.

dot_Sp0T

14:40

So how does it work then?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Basically, it's an alliance of member states. So for any military actions, the governing body has access to the collective armed forces and all the logistics that goes with it. An analogy is World War II, and what we call "The Allies", which was made up of several countries, but collaborated its actions as one.

DaaaahWhoosh

what I don't get about NATO is when the members don't contribute as much as they're supposed to

I mean, I get that we have to protect them to avoid wars, and wars are bad, but it seems like the people most likely to get invaded first would really want to help NATO work

Green

@dot_Sp0T I don't believe so.

dot_Sp0T

14:56

@DaaaahWhoosh I feel like I am missing out on the meaning of your second post; what are you trying to say..?

DaaaahWhoosh

@dot_Sp0T member countries are supposed to commit a certain amount of money to defense, and most are not doing that

dot_Sp0T

@DaaaahWhoosh they are not? I though that was a must..?

DaaaahWhoosh

money.cnn.com/2016/07/08/news/nato-summit-spending-countries

dot_Sp0T

Is that an answer..?

DaaaahWhoosh

sort of?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

14:58

I don't know anything about the financial contributions. I expect there's a per capita/GDP price to be paid (or percentage of military spend, or whatever).

DaaaahWhoosh

I probably don't know the whole answer

Pᴇᴛᴇ

I think the lack of spend is more to do with worldwide economics than anything else. I think the other problem is that the world has kind of moved away from traditional warfare. Things are a lot more remote/intangible these days.

dot_Sp0T

I am surprised that Greece is spending so much on it

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Greece doesn't have a high GDP anyway. And it's very close to . Seems reasonable that they want to show themselves as being defensive.

dot_Sp0T

So how does the UN differ then..?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

15:11

UN are primarily peacekeeping in nature. They're not really known for combat roles (maybe in small numbers, but nothing like "army" size).

dot_Sp0T

So, do they or don't they have their own forces..?

Pᴇᴛᴇ

Peacekeeping

Peacekeeping refers to activities that tend to create conditions that favor lasting peace. Within the United Nations (UN) group of nation-state governments and organizations, there is a general understanding that at the international level, peacekeepers monitor and observe peace processes in post-conflict areas, and may assist ex-combatants in implementing peace agreement commitments that they have undertaken. Such assistance may come in many forms, including confidence-building measures, power-sharing arrangements, electoral support, strengthening the rule of law, and economic and social development...

DaaaahWhoosh

I think Farscape has forever ruined how I respond to the word 'peacekeeper'

dot_Sp0T

Better than answering yes/no questions with links instead of some brief words

DaaaahWhoosh

:( but I have no confidence in my own words

dot_Sp0T

15:22

You need confidence in yourself if you ever want to succeed

Don't believe in yourself, believe in the me that believes in you

DaaaahWhoosh

huh, that actually helps.

except you're no Kamina

dot_Sp0T

And here's some motivational music: youtube.com/watch?v=OBwS66EBUcY

@DaaaahWhoosh and you're the worst Simon I've ever seen

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, I suck at digging

DaaaahWhoosh

18:07

does anyone ever get a feeling when they're testing a fix that the fix isn't going to work, even though you don't really know it won't? I'm getting that feeling now, and I don't want to, because it feels like my lack of confidence is somehow causing all these fixes to fail

far as I can remember, I've never thought a fix wouldn't work and been wrong.

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh Yes. Many times.

DaaaahWhoosh

I'm just so close to punching my monitor, I installed a dll on my local machine so I could edit a form, now that dll has apparently broken the project

the form can't be displayed on any server that doesn't have visual studio installed

Nex Terren

Wat. How. Why.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, that's what I said

now I'm trying to add nuget packages to the project, assuming that'll give it whatever the servers are missing, but the error message never changes

I guess it's probably an issue that I have very little .net experience, but still, this seems like a really stupid and ugly problem

Green

18:32

I really don't care for the .NET environment. There's DLLs going all over the place and fixing the placement and versioning is impossible (for me.)

I'm sure the language is great but <shudder> getting the env setup is painful.

DaaaahWhoosh

@Green yeah, I tried to get Jenkins to build our projects on a server, after about a week I gave up

Green

Doesn't MSFT have a CI server for .NET products? It seems really weird if they don't.

DaaaahWhoosh

probably? We use TFS for both our .Net and Java applications, and Jenkins can build the Java ones for us

currently we just build the .Net stuff locally and then paste it to the servers

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh <wince> That wrecks merry hell with build repeatability. I"m sorry you can't do your builds with Jenkins.

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh TFS supports build servers. That's what we do here.

DaaaahWhoosh

18:41

@Green yeah, me too. But honestly I just wish we'd either written this application in Java or not fired the guy who wrote it in .Net

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh how many lines of code is this application?

Nex Terren

Such .Net hate.

DaaaahWhoosh

@Green I don't know how to calculate that. It's not massive, but it's built really strangely

and there are no comments

@NexTerren I'm not hating on .Net, just the fact that it's stupid we fired the only guy on the team who knew it well

and that it's harder to manage than Java applications

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh No comments anywhere in the code base, even from really old commits? Are there any unit tests? If not, you're living on a wing and a prayer.

DaaaahWhoosh

@Green there are some comments on checkins, the specific issue I'm having now I believe I caused so I don't expect to find answers in the app, there are unit tests but I actually don't know how to use them

and I bet they haven't been updated in years

Nex Terren

18:47

@DaaaahWhoosh I can help with .Net Unit Tests. What's your issue with them?

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh Good luck sir.

Nex Terren

Oh, if they're outdated that badly you'd probably need to rewrite them...

Green

I'd be curious to see which and how many of them fail when the tests are run.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, unfortunately as far as I know we don't really use unit tests on the other applications, or at least no one ever showed me how to use them

Nex Terren

Or if the unit tests even compile.

I bet they don't even compile.

DaaaahWhoosh

18:52

yeah, well, I definitely don't have time to fix the unit tests

I'll be lucky enough to figure out how to undo this dll issue I somehow caused

all I wanted was a form editor... I didn't want to have to run the application to see what the form looked like... is that too much to ask?

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh Apparently so.

James

19:09

Hello fellow humans, how are you on day 10 of 2017?

Nex Terren

@James What, we don't index at 0 like some sort of savages?!

James

Eh...

zero is so 1740 bc

DaaaahWhoosh

50% of everything you say on the Internet is 0

Nex Terren

@DaaaahWhoosh Wat.

Mithrandir24601

So true. @NexTerren - I'll give you a hint - it's not day 10, it's day 1010

Nex Terren

19:21

...I missed a binary joke and shall now go into the corner of shame.

James

We are a special breed of nerd....

dot_Sp0T

@James that's what the Borg collective said

James

within 6 lines we now have a history/math joke, a binary joke and a Star Trek joke.

World building. You are win. Lots and lots of win.

3

DaaaahWhoosh

19:40

btw anyone notice this question seems really opinion based? worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/67273/…

it's become somewhat popular, which could have negative consequences of the quality of questions we get in the future

dot_Sp0T

Haven't even seen it until now

Have you VTCd it yet?

DaaaahWhoosh

yup, I am one of the three

dot_Sp0T

Sooo get someone more to VTC it, I wanna be numbaaaah FIVE

(Ah couldn't keep myself back)

DaaaahWhoosh

oh no, I just realized I don't remember which kids are which

but also, is 1 supposed to be Picard?

dot_Sp0T

@DaaaahWhoosh what..?

James

19:44

Closed.

DaaaahWhoosh

@dot_Sp0T I assume you were referencing Codename: Kids Next Door, and had just realized that the leader is bald, wears a red shirt, and has a British accent

so, just to be clear, you were referencing KND, right?

dot_Sp0T

@DaaaahWhoosh you know, it's times like this when I adore my brain for how it works; you say the name of a cartoon series I've watched some few episodes years ago and my brain flashes me with title music, images and action shots of all the characters and other unnecessary information

@DaaaahWhoosh nope, I was referencing the amount of Close Votes a question needs to be put on hold, and was referring to the fact that I like to be the tipping point

DaaaahWhoosh

ah

huh

I guess I made too much of a leap there

but seriously, I never realized the one kid was exactly like Picard

Green

@dot_Sp0T Killing blows. I understand why that's not a badge but I really wish there was one.

dot_Sp0T

@Green FINISH HIM

Green

19:49

@dot_Sp0T Also a good one.

dot_Sp0T

That would be the most glorious Winter Bash Hat

Green

And then if you get five of them it's KILLING SPREE!!!

To "borrow" from an excellent game:

Killing Spree - 5 kills
Rampage - 10 kills
Dominating - 15 kills
Unstoppable - 20 kills
GODLIKE - 25 kills
WICKED SICK - 30 kills

@dot_Sp0T It would probably be a secret hat. Can't let it get out that you're giving awards for killing blows.

@dot_Sp0T, make a meta post requesting it for next year.

DaaaahWhoosh

I wonder what kinda hat it would be

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh A viking helmet with an axe stuck in it.

(never mind that viking didn't put horns on their helmets. Horns are big giant handles. Why put those on your head?)

DaaaahWhoosh

I don't really understand that argument

I mean, sure, you don't want to give the enemy an advantage, but if they're grabbing your helmet you can just cut their hands off

and if they grab your sword you can headbutt them to death

hell, a lot of helmets have feathers or hairs sticking out of the top. Those would be even easier to grab

the only plausible argument I see is that the horns keep downward blows from glancing off, so a strong blow from above might just break your neck

dot_Sp0T

19:58

@Green already done

Green

@dot_Sp0T Really? Where?

dot_Sp0T

43

Q: Suggestions for Winterbash 2017

Winterbash 2016 is not over yet (it started later than usual this year and will end later than usual), but after noticing that the corresponding versions of this question for Winterbash 2015 and Winterbash 2014 were posted on Jan 4 2016 and Jan 4 2015 respectively, I figured it would be fitting ...

@Green because you'll always have two horns to drink from

That reminds me that I am absolutely looking forward to the next medieval fare around here; I need to refill my horn with water and mead

DaaaahWhoosh

mmm, mead

Green

@dot_Sp0T Monica is amazing as usual.

dot_Sp0T

I need to cook up some new questions

Green

20:07

0

A: Suggestions for Winterbash 2017

A secret hat for killing blows Can we have a hat for being the fifth and final vote on a vote to close? I realize why there isn't any kind of award for voting to close because it changes the incentives behind closing questions. However, a secret hat that acknowledges a person's closing vote wo...

dot_Sp0T

uhm.... it's literally the post above yours

Green

@dot_Sp0T Dang. Fixed it.

dot_Sp0T

@Green I am sorry

Green

@dot_Sp0T No worry.

dot_Sp0T

@Green Worry indeed; I should've linked to my post directly, I realize that two pages are difficult to navigate

Green

20:10

You got my upvote. We'll see if anyone else likes the idea.

dot_Sp0T

Thank you

We'll be killing question by the dozen this time next year

Green

@dot_Sp0T Killing Sprees for everyone!

James

@HDE226868 nice suggestion for WB2017

Green

@James Agreed.

DaaaahWhoosh

oh no, WinterBash and WorldBuilding have a initialism collision

3

Nex Terren

20:16

@DaaaahWhoosh Exactly my thought.

Green

@DaaaahWhoosh What is that?

dot_Sp0T

@Green WB and WB

Green

Ah, got it.

DaaaahWhoosh

luckily we don't normally talk about Warner Bros.

dot_Sp0T

Or Warren Buffet

James

20:22

I have a man crush on Warren Buffet. I actually know where two of his houses are.

Nex Terren

@James I really didn't take you for the type. Why the man crush?

dot_Sp0T

@James That's not a man crush... that's called stalking

James

@NexTerren He's freaking brilliant

@dot_Sp0T I live in the same town...I'm not exactly unique in knowing its his house.

dot_Sp0T

@James you know... moving to the same town as your stalkee... that's quite a move there

Nex Terren

@James He's right. This is an intervention. You need help. We're your friends; we care about you.

James

20:27

@dot_Sp0T I find that dedication is important to excelling in your interests.

@NexTerren Lies!!! All lies!!!

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T That just simplifies the whole process. Let me tell you, it gets expensive to stalk someone that lives across the country

Also makes it a lot easier to trace you

"Every Breath You Take" by Police (MINOR KEY VERSION)

►

kinda creepy

James

Im not watching that...

AndyD273

It's just the song that people seem to think is a romantic song, sung the way that show's it's true meaning.

Makes me wonder who in their right mind would want that played at their wedding.

James

Yeah totally a stalker song

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 probably James

James

20:40

...I walked into that one.

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Only if he was hooking up with Warren Buffet

dot_Sp0T

@James like a man into a bar

James

@dot_Sp0T Ok see I literally did that last night.

dot_Sp0T

@James with Warren?

AndyD273

Two guys are walking down the street.
One walks into a bar.
The other ducks.

James

20:41

@AndyD273 Ass...I just inhaled hot coffee

@dot_Sp0T Wouldn't you like to know

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 you mean he ducked?

@James sure would

James

If I were personal friends with Warren I am pretty sure I wouldn't be driving a 13 year old car...

@AndyD273 And I mean that in the most endearing way possible.

AndyD273

hehe

@James no worries

dot_Sp0T

Well it's time for me to leave.. here yo go youtube.com/watch?v=jofNR_WkoCE

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T It's times like this that make me really thankful for the chrome extension that shows the names of youtube videos on links

dot_Sp0T

20:53

@AndyD273 you know you want to listen to it

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T This one's better youtube.com/watch?v=kBVnq0c6jik

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 maybe if it weren't so terribly mixed....

But honestly, what's the deal with that cartoon. It's not that good..

AndyD273

There's probably a better version somewhere.

but it really wasn't meant to be looped

James

An 8 Bit Reenactment of Dungeons and Dragons

►

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Eh, it's just kinda fun? Weird and silly with a crazy amount of continuity to tie it all together. There will be some random throw away plot element in an episode, and then a few episodes later it gets brought back as something major.

I'm not completely sure that continuity is a word.

Green

21:01

@AndyD273 it is.

AndyD273

Ok, I just check, and it is a word

It's even the word I was trying for, so that's a bonus

dot_Sp0T

@AndyD273 so people like it because the people making it actually keep tabs on their plot?

AndyD273

@dot_Sp0T Yeah, or the way that they keep tabs on the plot. They don't draw attention to stuff, so when you see the connections it's kinda satisfying in a strange way. like "Oh, I didn't realize that was bothering me until they just explained it. Cool." It's not for everyone.

dot_Sp0T

What you describe to me seems to be normal plot making

AndyD273

Also I may not be explaining it well. It could also be that so little TV deals with plot building very good, and all the characters grow as the series progresses. Along with lots of implied backstory that you pick up clues to along the way.

DaaaahWhoosh

21:18

what are you guys talking about?

AndyD273

Adventure Time, and why do so many people like it.

Or not as the case may be.

Mithrandir

Would you mind if I posted an ad for the Literature proposal here?

Should I take the silence as consent? :P

AndyD273

@Mithrandir I speak for no one... what's that?

Also I don't personally care

Mithrandir

A proposal on Area 51 for a new site.

About books.

The Literature proposal is now at 99% commitment. If you haven't already, please commit!

AndyD273

Oh, that was simple

BESW

21:26

Folks these days also enjoy cartoons which deal with social/emotional themes in complex ways. Gravity Falls, Adventure Time, Steven Universe, they're more emotionally mature than a lot of live-action TV for adults. Characters have complex motives, are rarely mean or evil for its own sake, and their personalities are consistent without being flat.

Mithrandir

Yes, it's a simple, non-obstructive ad that gets the message out.

BESW

@Mithrandir Indeed. Pinned.

Mithrandir

@BESW Thank you. :D

(That's two rooms with that message pinned now :P)

BESW

I could also pin it here and here, but the latter is less likely to get a response than the former.

DaaaahWhoosh

it seems strange to me that there isn't already a Literature SE

BESW

21:29

I'm skeptical it'll work.

DaaaahWhoosh

are books really that far gone?

Mithrandir

@DaaaahWhoosh It tried once or twice. It failed.

BESW

The Stack's "actionable solutions to practical problems" format can be bent a good ways, but the further it bends the more active curation the site will need for its entire life.

DaaaahWhoosh

well, we have Movies SE. I feel like Literature should be the book version

AndyD273

@DaaaahWhoosh I love books, but literature is dull... Some people like it.

BESW

21:33

The use of "literature" as a legitimising term for a subset of "storytelling" is... problematic, at best.

AndyD273

@BESW I kinda feel that literature is everything, from newspapers and research studies to thrillers and fiction. But mainly when I thing about it I think of boring pretentious stuff like Hemingway.

BESW

Historically literature basically means "The stuff you learn about in fancy schools and separates you from the uneducated rabble." Which is in turn reflexively self-defining; literature is what's taught in schools, and what's taught in schools is literature, so whoever controls the school curriculum gets to decide what is and isn't worth of being elevated to that status.

AndyD273

Yeah, assigned reading in school. shudder

BESW

For example, romances weren't worthy for most of the 19th century, explicitly because they were mostly by and for women and thus the men who went to higher education weren't interested in legitimising them.

Mithrandir

Literature here is all books.

The name is a bit ambiguous.

BESW

21:39

The reason murder mysteries from the late 1800s and early 1900s are such a rich subgenre is that women flocked to them as a hidden genre: mysteries weren't worth analysis as literature, so women could write about all kinds of subversive themes and still get published and read without much censorship.

AndyD273

My English classes instilled a deep loathing of Hemingway. It is literally possible to analyze something to death.

BESW

Mmm. I love analysing Margery Allingham, but it's secondary to just enjoying her.

DaaaahWhoosh

@AndyD273 For sale: Hemingway books. Over-analyzed.

the thing I don't like about deep analysis is that it seems like you're cutting open the golden goose. A good book should give you things to think about it without you having to do all the work

BESW

Well, yes. But analysis isn't something you have to do in order to think about a book. It's a broad set of techniques for thinking further and deeper if you want to.

AndyD273

EXACTLY. Pretentious ass

Oh, it's so deep and moving

BAH

BESW

21:46

Analysis for its own sake is... well, not very useful.

But as a set of tools it's just a subset of critical thinking, and practicing that is vital for all walks of life.

AndyD273

"What do you feel this story is about?"
"I think it's about this."
"No, that's wrong, it's about abortion and how being a woman is a curse."

An actual converstion

BESW

@AndyD273 That's... not how critical analysis is supposed to work.

It's not about feels and it's not about right and wrong. It's about using the work and its context to support an interpretation.

AndyD273

Don't tell me that. You don't have to convince me.
The english teacher had a thing for "Hills like White Elephants" for some reason.

A later teacher was much better. Plus in that class we got to read Vonnegut and Clark and even two of my short stories.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, I guess most problems I and others have with literary analysis is when people say "this is what the author meant, no arguments allowed". There was one teacher who tried to tell me that the scene in Henry V when the French women are swearing at each other had some sort of deep meaning

AndyD273

@BESW I mean, when the teacher explained why it was about abortion and how being a woman sucks I could see her point and it's probably what Hemingway meant the story to be about.

BESW

21:54

@DaaaahWhoosh That's a very poor (but sadly common) representation of critical analysis, largely stemming from an education system that doesn't give teachers all the tools they need to understand what they're teaching.

AndyD273

But It's not a great story to start with.

BESW

Yeeah.

DaaaahWhoosh

it's not so much that he was wrong, but that my counter-argument actually turned out to be more compelling

BESW

(I wrote a high school paper about how the island in Treasure Island represents the Garden of Eden, and Long John Silver is the Serpent. It was patent nonsense, but supportable nonetheless.)

DaaaahWhoosh

huh, that actually does make some sense, if I'm remembering the story correctly

BESW

21:58

In college I tried to write papers about cultural contact zones and the difficulty of presenting an author's context when students' experience leads them to focus on elements of the story the author considered secondary. It was hard to find professors who understood what I was talking about.

DaaaahWhoosh

huh, that actually does sound pretty interesting

that's what I liked about the religion classes I took, they tried to convey the culture in which the New Testament was created, and how that created writings that we interpret differently

because we don't really know what it's like to live 2000 years ago, so we miss the point

BESW

eg, Richard Cory is about the meaninglessness of a lower class admiring an upper class and aspiring to join it. But the point is hammered home by having an upper-class character commit suicide (it was the author's way of showing that he was as discontent as the lower-class characters).

In a class where every single student knows someone who committed suicide, in a private school where hardly any of them has really thought much about wealth disparity, they're going to focus on the suicide to the point that it totally eclipses the author's message about class and wealth.

DaaaahWhoosh

in my senior year, I read a lot of slave narratives, and wondered if they have any place in modern race relations.

AndyD273

All right, night all

DaaaahWhoosh

@AndyD273 o/

AndyD273

22:04

\o

(you don't have to escape forward slashes)

BESW

ttfn

DaaaahWhoosh

22:19

I assume this room would be a bad place to ask whether or not the slave narrative has any place in modern race relations, right?

BESW

I think it's necessary but not sufficient; historical context is very important, but if the slave narrative is being treated as the only historical context, that's a problem.

DaaaahWhoosh

yeah, I guess what concerned me is that people thought about things much differently back then, so the kinds of arguments they used, while useful at the time, nowadays tend to be pretty racist and possibly damaging to the modern cause

BESW

Talking about those changing values is useful! We wouldn't have the more nuanced understandings we enjoy without building on those less nuanced notions.

It also helps us be more thoughtful when questionable or incomplete notions are fielded today, which happens.

Check out the Insular Cases some time, and how they're still being used to justify disenfranchisement a hundred years later.

(TL;DR version is that Americans in places like Puerto Rico and Guam don't have full citizen's rights because of a 100 year old ruling that their cultures were too weird for them to understand American values and they shouldn't have those rights until they appreciated America more. And the federal government stills says that hasn't happened yet.)

DaaaahWhoosh

kinda terrifying that you would deny someone rights based on 'values'

but I guess that does still happen a lot today

BESW

22:35

In the Insular Cases it's framed as the government making "concessions" to "alien races" by not forcing them to have rights they don't understand. But, you know, forcing them to be citizens of a distant country instead of letting them govern themselves, that's cool.

And yes, it still happens all the time.

Without understanding those old injustices, we get things like folks who think the American government shouldn't treat Native American nations as sovereign entities or make reparations for past wrongs. (It does this because the American government made treaties with them in the past, acknowledging their sovereignty, and then ignored those treaties and overthrew those nations. We're still waiting for a similar acknowledgement of Hawaii.)

So, yeah, slave narratives have a role in understanding what's changed and what hasn't, why and how, and calling out things which still need to change.

Not to mention just, you know, honoring the suffering and sacrifice.

DaaaahWhoosh

I guess what worries me about historical context is when you start thinking of yourself as the same entity of people from back then

and thinking of your enemies as the same people that were your enemies a century or two ago

BESW

That's not an issue with the content, though.

It happens when we skip over the intervening events.

DaaaahWhoosh

no, just the audience

yeah

it's useful to see where we've come from, so long as that doesn't distract us from where we are

BESW

While cherry-picked narratives do real harm, that don't mean we shouldn't talk about the things they include. It means we should talk about the stuff they leave out.

DaaaahWhoosh

hmm, yeah

JDługosz

22:48

36241! An other prime number for my score :)

BESW

@JDługosz Grats!

And, well, back to epistemology being about how we know things: the role of history in understanding ourselves, our present, and our future --and which is more important to our identity-- is very much a cultural thing.

DaaaahWhoosh

@BESW as in, history has different significance for different cultures?

BESW

Yup. What it teaches us, and how important those learnings are, and how much it impacts our identity.

eg, Pasifika cultures tend to "walk backward into the future." The present is the least important part of time, a moving blip defined by what came before and moving into what will be.

A good physical example is harvesting taro: you can't harvest taro now unless the last person who harvested it cut off the corm so it would grow back. While you're harvesting taro now, you have to be the person cutting off the corm so it will grow back, because that's what the future needs.

The act of harvesting now is created by the past and defined by the future.

DaaaahWhoosh

huh, interesting

BESW

It's in line with Pasifika's tendency toward collectivist culture.

The individual's focus is on being a functioning part of the community.

DaaaahWhoosh

23:01

as I recall, most culture was collectivist, individualism being more of a modern invention

HDE 226868

@James Thanks. It's all because of your idea, though.

DaaaahWhoosh

23:25

huh, I just got a new answer to my rideable velociraptor question. Not only is it an old question and the answer provided no new material, but they spelled 'raptor' wrong.

Mithrandir24601

@DaaaahWhoosh actually just got that for review... Left a comment. Will probably flag as it's a bit tongue-in-cheek and didn't add anything new

DaaaahWhoosh

I just don't understand low-quality late answers. Like, how do they get there, and how do they not see the other answers?

Mithrandir24601

Is this a possible rare use of the moderator intervention flag, or is it just 'rude or abusive' (for inappropriate language)?

I mean, it's got the innappropriate-ness, but that's not actually the reason that it deserves to be flagged...

BESW

If it's genuinely trying to answer the question, and just does it badly, downvote and move on.

If it's unStackly, like not trying to be an answer or having offensive content, flag as appropriate.

[looks at]

I'd downvote, maaaaybe flag as VLQ.

It's a lousy answer that demonstrates a clear lack of expertise, but it's trying to answer the question and it's not offensive.

DaaaahWhoosh

agreed, I'd just feel bad downvoting since they seemed to be trying to help me

Mithrandir24601

23:39

It gave an answer to a nearly 2-year old question as essentially 'no here' and 'yes here', without giving details. I'm actually tempted to flag as 'rude or abusive' for the phrase "OH YEAH BABY, YOU COULD RIDE THAT" (ughh), but it's also poor quality and doesn't answer the question in any detail that hasn't already been given

BESW

The age of the question is irrelephant.

DaaaahWhoosh

it might not be sexual, just a sort of 'you can ride a dinosaur, that is the coolest thing'

BESW

The whole point of the Stack is that questions don't expire because they're real problems people face, so answers aren't just for the original querent.

Mithrandir24601

Well, shouldn't it have been in the 'late answers' queue as opposed to the 'first post' queue?

DaaaahWhoosh

@BESW lol at 'real problems people face', considering the current context

BESW

23:40

I assume first post takes precedence.

Or maybe it's just in whichever queue you open first.

The "yeah baby" thing is... questionable, yeah. I'd be inclined to focus on the more tangible problems with the answer.

Mithrandir24601

Purpose of 'Late answers': "Review late answers from new users"

BESW

[shrug] The review queue works some kind of bizarre witchcraft into which I am uninitiated.

DaaaahWhoosh

speaking of witchcraft, I want to find a polite way to leave the room without drawing attention to myself

Mithrandir24601

So late answers (in my experience) always has new users

BESW

@DaaaahWhoosh Voting is a mechanism for (a) sorting content by crowdsourcing quality judgements, and (b) deciding if a user understands the site well enough to be trusted with further contribution and curation privileges.

HDE 226868

23:44

@Mithrandir24601 Nah, use the Low Quality flag.

BESW

It's arguably offensive. It's definitely low quality.

Mithrandir24601

@HDE226868 Thanks. Done

HDE 226868

@BESW Yeah, borderline offensive. I'll let the community deal with this one.

Mithrandir24601

Also, @HDE226868 if you didn't read the bit before that, is there a reason that said answer was in first posts as opposed to late answers?

(Doesn't really matter, I'm just curious)

HDE 226868

@Mithrandir24601 Well, any first post goes to the First Posts queue. That might take precedence over the Late Answers queue.

Mithrandir24601

23:49

I've just checked over some of my old late answers reviews, and they all seemed to have been new users at the time of answering...

Maybe it's just something that I've never noticed before

HDE 226868

They were, but those posts aren't necessarily their first. So if a 20-rep user posts something on an old question, it might enter the Late Posts queue.

Mithrandir24601

A good number of them still have 1 or 1+10*votes rep though, so that might be the case some of the time, but not all of the time. I don't recall seeing an answer to such a relatively old question in the first post queue before, but it's not the kind of thing that I look at, so maybe I've just noticed for the first time tonight

Transcript for