@HamZa And instead of trying to discuss the matter with a moderator, you thought it was a good idea to just flag everything?

Would be good if the flags contained the previous message at least

I'm sorry but your attitude makes absolutely no sense.

I usually try to ask myself, would Simon say that in the DMZ before validating :)

@Matthew Hardly enough.

@M'vy Hahahaha.

@Iszi Well, last few lines would be even better, but it would be a start

@Simon i tried yesterday but basically: if you don't like it, gtfo

@Matthew there's so many features that the flagging system should implement, but meh, let's leave the fate of chatters in the hands of the entire chat.se population

@kalina hi

@HamZa I don't think I've seen you ask @RoryAlsop something along the lines of "I need to speak with you, care to open a private room for both of us?".

@Matthew At that point, you're starting to become less of a popup notification and more of a duplication of the chat room - i.e.: the "validate" button should be replaced with "switch to room" and actual validations should only be able to be done in-room.

Because if you did request that, he would have done it.

However, when the whole room seems to be fine with something and you're not, should the whole room change their behavior for you?

I don't want an actual answer, this is something you should be thinking about.

@Simon Careful with that. Ask around and you'll find a lot of people who think certain rooms just need to be burninated - probably including ours.

@Simon if the room's behaviour is out of line with Be Nice, yes (not saying that was, just something to think about)

@Simon I chatted here in the open and talked to kalina

But then, there's this...

@Iszi that's a really good idea, actually. Has it been asked on meta?

@Iszi Meh.

and as usual the troll level is too high. Like I'm a newbie with username user\d+

@RoryAlsop I'm gonna guess yeah. But maybe I should actually go look.

@ArtOfCode Problem is I don't think we view ourselves as genuinely not being nice.

Does anyone? Apart from the truly psychopathic?

@Simon well, with all the drama lately, I think some disagree

@HamZa Should have gone to a moderator if the said user didn't want to do something about it.

@HamZa I'm not sure I follow, who do you think is trolling you?

Also, you've flagged me twice today, did you have a chat with me?

@HamZa I'm glad you called it out actually, and I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that @kalina would probably prefer that than silently flagging. Most of the room responds reasonably well to direct, reasoned conversation

@Simon Like I said, it started with kalina, it would have only be fair to flag equally

Not necessarily to aggressive confrontation...

Look, mod flags are beautiful things. If you think there's a deeper problem than a one-off not-Nice message, use one.

Anyway, I'll let the mods handle this.

@ArtOfCode It doesn't take a dose of psychopathy to be self-aware enough that you can recognize how you appear to others. That said, those who can and aren't psychopathic are probably a very small minority.

None of my business.

Did @kalina leave?

Yes she did.

@Simon there is a normalisation point here, though - that does come up on occasion

Arrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

@Simon Leave, or get kick-banned?

Please don't flag people for joking around. .. ask if someone is offended if you aren't sure

@Iszi She left immediately after posting something so I'm assuming she left.

Like the jokee

can't think of any reason for the latter

Ask the jokee if they're offended

@Iszi left I believe after hamza said he had a problem with her attitude

I'm not joking around

@RoryAlsop Yeah, well, like I said I'll let you handle that.

@Iszi Left.

I realise I should just leave and mind my own business

@kalina Please come back

@HamZa if @Simon was offended, he'd flag it or leave...

@Simon Wait what happened?

@DavidFreitag I flagged some stuff which I shouldn't according to the room's standard, the whole room went berserk

@HamZa Yeah that's what happens when people act like a dick

@HamZa also see non-Sec.SE mods please consult the local team before considering bans

lulz dovid

@DavidFreitag careful

meh. Guys, if we have problems, lets focus on actions, not people.

I really wish foreign mods would read the room description before banning

@HamZa I'm not sure I would characterise it as "beserk" people were annoyed/confused at flags which in the general run of the room would not have occurred

@ArtOfCode Nope

Dayum dovid is having none of this shit

^what he said

@DavidFreitag maybe I should flag you too, be polite

@JourneymanGeek Ehhhh. I think @HamZa has been in here enough times before to have a feel for the room. Or at least a vague notion of how things are around here.

@HamZa Go for it

no

So, calling @HamZa a dick is out of line, IMO. Saying "hey, I don't think flagging people like that was the right thing to do" isn't

Because abusing the flagging system is such a good plan

@HamZa the concern I have is that you were reacting to a person and not the messages. suggesting you have a problem with one room participant and then only flagged the other person to be "fair" isn't good

Likewise saying "I didn't like Kalina's attitude" focuses on the person. What did Kalina say which specifically annoyed you? What would be your actual issue?

@HamZa at that point it feels like you're flagging the person not the message

@DavidFreitag read the last 1000 messages before insulting someone's actions for it

@RоryMcCune I guess you're spot on

@HamZa You said yourself you're abusing the system

@HamZa well that's not what the flag system is for (as far as I'm aware) so it'd be appreciated if you didn't do that

popcorn

#TheDaysOfOurDMZ

@TerryChia Nice timing torry.

So it's time for the monthly flag drama?

@TerryChia Hehehehe even if you're much less active, you know what's going on anyway.

That's funny.

@TerryChia preeeeety much

Or was it bimonthly?

@RоryMcCune I know but retaliating even against a mod and being disrespectful?

@TerryChia More often than monthly as of late

@HamZa it should never be about retaliation.

@kalina Please come back

@HamZa if it wasn't to you and the mod in question isn't bothered, it's not for you to flag (in my opinion). why should you be offended if the "target" wasn't

@TerryChia Where ya been? Feels like forever.

@TerryChia it could be worse; there could be CMs getting involved ;-;

Can we take a vote to see if @HamZa gets banned for a week for abusing the flagging system?

Actually, I have a very solid policy on never suspending anyone without a clear head on my shoulders.

Any ways, I chose to flag one or two messages instead of flagging all messages that irritated me

@DavidFreitag that's not really how it works.

@DavidFreitag that's for the mods, I think

@TerryChia biweekly at best lately.

@Iszi I've been around. Just not saying much since I'm usually gaming. :P

@JourneymanGeek @RоryMcCune shhhhh

@DavidFreitag oh, maybe I shouldn't have exposed the "mysterious flagger"

49.media.tumblr.com/8cb9b3bb1613898e78e6e93806e0cc95/… -onebox

@DavidFreitag no. But @HamZa - please don't use it like that in future.

@HamZa again flags aren't for messages that are "irritating", they're for offensive content which shouldn't be related to a person

@HamZa Did you really think that "I drag and drop your mom" was offensive?

@HamZa on the contrary, it lets us try to discuss this like grownups. Outside well, the images of popcorn.

let's not single people out on either side of the coin

@RoryAlsop aw dang

@DavidFreitag So tempting to use my new boot. But it would be short-lived, and there's enough blue diamonds around that I'm sure it'll happen if it really needs to.

Look. I've been offended in here before. I've been Internet hurt. But I don't flag... so if you're offended, please discuss it and get the ePain out of the way. It may be just a misunderstanding.

@Quill precisely

@JourneymanGeek Hehehe.

@HamZa No, it's much better to get it out into the open so that other people here can discuss it with you rather than "mysterious flagger".

@Randal'Thor Agreed

@HamZa Why haven't flagged the countless times @AviD said something "mean" about my mom?

Because @AviD is your dad

@MarkBuffalo Exactly. Flagging is a last resort, only to be used if you're sure that simply asking people not to say that (the best way of dealing with posts you don't like in chat) isn't going to work. @HamZa

or if its something terrible and bad that need action now

@HamZa You don't just flag someone, you tell them to stop, then get a mod involved.

To be honest we've been living on the edge for some times now. I'm not surprised today.

If those don't workt then you flag

Does everyone else want @kalina to return? I know I do.

@DavidFreitag like talking is going to resolve things here. Like I said, the consensus is: this room is like this for several months (years), if you don't like, gtfo

@kalina come back etc

@HamZa If talking doesn't work mods have these tools that allow them to discipline people

@MarkBuffalo I'd rather not totally fill up her inbox tho

lady might want her space,least for a little bit.

Pls Mark. She'll be back eventually. No point spamming her inbox

@DavidFreitag and we do discipline people

@JourneymanGeek If it's something terrible and bad like, I dunno, pornography or death threats, then it's reasonably likely that someone is off-the-wall or trollish enough that just asking them to stop won't work. So that still comes under what I said.

Folks who do actually cause offence get properly kicked

@DavidFreitag I think a 30mn ban is better than a week or more ban but I get your point

@Randal'Thor preeeeety much

@HamZa Yeah the week was a bit of an overreaction

@HamZa but this basically means you're going "the heck with what everyone else thinks. I don't like these people and they should be punished"

@JourneymanGeek true

@HamZa There is a lot of banter in here, and we (mods and room owners) do try and keep the top of it at euphemism level, rather than offensive level. What we don't want is a room that is so controlled by rules that everyone just leaves

@Simon I know I'm just an "outsider" for most of the current users here.

@HamZa Doesn't matter, if he would have done it for anyone, I know that.

The problem with coarse jesting is that it's often difficult to tell what's a joke from the outside, and sometimes you can go too far, hence why I try to avoid it.

Before SF's room moved, people used to post slightly cheesecakey images of ladies in minimal clothing sometimes. Even gifs. Someone was like "hey guys, this might get me in trouble at work" People adjusted.

You get a lot further asking nicely ;)

@HamZa We love our outsiders too you know :) ahah

@JourneymanGeek That reminds me, why haven't we moved to Slack yet? :P

And that sorta thing is why I don't actively use my mod powers here much.

@TerryChia cause slackbot ?

@M'vy Slackbot is awesome.

@TerryChia SU's got a bit of a side-room on gitter ;p

@HamZa nope - I have you in my "longer term users" bucket, and anyway it doesn't matter where/when you came in. If you are interested in security, I will try and make you feel welcome

since there's sometimes things we'd rather keep private.

@TerryChia oh pls. People got it to spam the rooms even more than Simon does

@TerryChia The lack of threading is the main reason I believe.

^ that too

@M'vy Well yeah, but Slackbot actually makes sense sometimes.

@M'vy pretty sure we can train simon. Just need a suitably large rolled up newspaper.

@Simon But much better interface on mobile and actually usable tools. Plus no random users with mod powers.

@TerryChia web-iface is a lot better now btw.

Wait a tick... who got knocked off for a week?

Tildal

@JourneymanGeek For all we know he's into that...

@M'vy Oh, right. Thought we were discussing the current case.

@M'vy I thought that was a 30 day one?

no no

2 days left

Yeah but I doubt Tilda is coming back

@M'vy Maybe it got reduced for good behaviour...

30 days would have been really hard. I already think a week was a bit much, and it could have been solved differently. But I'm not appointed to judge.

o0

Wait, what happened to @TildalWave?

why exactly are we still discussing this?

@SmokeDispenser Because someone mentioned it again?

let's be clear: most of us say sometimes things someone else can take offense in - and to be honest, a little on the edge is way more fun than completely strict moderation. Let's just accept bans. The rep/democratic system has a reason - and it can fail, especially if it's edge cases.

@SmokeDispenser Someone brought up 1 month vs. 1 hour bans, and I thought they were saying someone had just been kicked for a month.

There is a bookmark on it btw @TerryChia

@M'vy Oh, link? I've been wondering.

that's the risk one takes when posting something that can be taken offense in. and everyone knows that.

@TerryChia He was banned for a week by Shog, then he ragequit.

@M'vy Thanks. BTW: We should chess some time again.

@M'vy you can bookmark things?!?

how does that work?

@SmokeDispenser Because it pisses me off that people come in and abuse the flagging system and nobody seems to care

@RоryMcCune room dropdown->bookmark

@RоryMcCune lol

@RоryMcCune hahahahaha - it's not just me that doesn't know how the room works then :-)

@Iszi ah yeah why not. Ask me first, I don't check the site that often now

@Quill ta :)

@DavidFreitag what I had no idea, never used that feature

@Iszi I probably want to start go I guess

@RоryMcCune in transcript there is a button

@RoryAlsop inorite this is some kind of anti-rory conspiracy!

@M'vy I don't even remember where we were. Will have to coordinate sometime.

@DavidFreitag people do care, and it is raised regularly at all levels. And there are meta posts. And discussion with SE folks.

@M'vy Never played. Always been a little interested.

hey there's other cool stuff in that drop down for me to abuse... I mean use for constructive room owner purposes

@Iszi TWSS

what....?

@RoryAlsop Yeah well apart from meta posts that's all invisible to us peons

@RоryMcCune you choose first and last and hop you're done

@M'vy cool. apparently I can "add new feeds" to the room to

@DavidFreitag I know - I assume once there is a solution that will change

@RоryMcCune You're RO and you've never opened the room menu? Seems grounds for demotion to me.

if I add a feed for College humor videos, we can get rid of @AviD

lol

@RоryMcCune don't abuse that too much, it's way too annoying to have popup/random message in the chat.

@RоryMcCune nooooooo

LOOOOOL

@RоryMcCune Probably me too. Proxy blocks CH, probably flags it too.

@M'vy yeah I can see that being super annoying

In Space.SE chat it was really handy to have feeds/notifications added for launches

Yeah Space.SE has like a million feeds

@RоryMcCune see, guys? there are other places (something about overflowing stacks) where this might have brought a ban.

They have pop-down in crypto room. hopefully there is not that much questions asked

Constantly getting popup messages

yet here...nothing. and that's great. but sometimes, it can fail.

@M'vy XKCD, totally worth it.

Right - need to go. Because of you folks I'm running an hour late and I've got to get home and cook for my mum and dad arriving.

@Iszi yeah I guess so

Later all!

@RoryAlsop o/

@RoryAlsop have fun

RoryAlsop... parents... does not compute.

I'm amused that one of the few bookmarked conversations in the room is from 2012 where @AviD posted a dodgy youtube video about cougars to the room

Wait wait wait, so @TildalWave got banned for talking shit about SE?

@TerryChia No, according to shog he was banned for spreading misinformation

That's a ridiculously stupid reason to get banned and reminds me why I don't really do much on the site anymore.

@TerryChia to a dev. yep. I have a feeling there was some history to it, at least that was what I gathered about it from inference

@DavidFreitag How is that a bannable offence?

@TerryChia Yes but I feel like threading is more needed than a nice GUI.

@TerryChia This also is not the full story

The bulk of what happened, happened behind closed doors

@Simon you're a nice GUI

Nobody will say the true reason why Tilda was banned

that one is funny :)

@Simon threaded chat could get... interesting. Especially if not everyone does replies right.

@DavidFreitag he was on to the reptillian conspiracy?

@DavidFreitag Which I don't know anything about and can't draw any conclusions from. The publicly visible reason for why he got banned is stupid and doesn't contribute to a good image of SE as a organization.

@M'vy Thank you Yves.

@TerryChia If you wanna read the whole thing: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/151?m=28652266#28652266

@TerryChia Agreed

@TerryChia Apparently SE looking stupid in the public eye is better than what Tilda was planning on saying.

Run for your life data!

@TerryChia Unfortunately, that's the outcome of a number of suspensions. Unless people talk about it themselves, mods won't disclose what led to the ban, even if it's totally valid.

@RоryMcCune Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out when he lost his diamond. Didn't make the cut in Space.SE graduation or something? (For that matter, has it graduated? I should go check.)

He requested to lose the diamond.

@Iszi Tilda stepped down as mod

@Iszi Has not graduated

@TerryChia he did see, somewhat emotional tho. And there's definately subtext

@ArtOfCode funny thing, I think he got banned because he wanted to say it.

@DavidFreitag Thanks. Short story on cause for that?

Snake bites his tail

@Iszi Tildal got annoyed at people on Space.SE and handed in his badge. there was a very aggravating user and I think he wanted to speak to him not as a mod...

@JourneymanGeek I dunno man, most of the things he said in that conversation I agree with.

@M'vy No, that's not true. I've heard mindor details of the case, and while I can't tell you, let me set that straight.

@M'vy I bite my own tail too

@Iszi Tilda was fed up with the modding system, he wanted to handle users a certain way and was generally infuriated by the fact that he was powerless to do anything against users who personally attacked him

@DavidFreitag Ah.

@DavidFreitag well I guess if you're a mod, you have to be prepared to take shit to your face.

Cause it will happen.

Obviously, that's not an easy stance ofc.

I have such a low opinion of the current state of the network that I honestly feel that if it closes down tomorrow it will not be a big loss to the world.

anyhow. I'm off work now. see you later, guys.

@TerryChia hard work has been made though. The community management is not that bad, but it's a bit heterogeneous which tends to look like unfair sometimes

@SmokeDispenser o/

@TerryChia I'm gonna go with a "yes and no" on that. The publicly-visible "last straw" certainly makes the banning look really whack. But I think anyone who cares enough to actually try reading into it will quickly recognize that there's a lot of feelings behind @TildalWave's messages that go much further back than the discussion at hand at the time, and clearly indicates that there was some history of problems between him and SEI already.

@SmokeDispenser see ya

@TerryChia Sadly, from the extremely little I've gotten to know about the situation just now, I think I can confidently say that @TildalWave very much should have seen it coming. And that if he was really inclined to stay, he would have put some effort into it instead of continuing to push buttons.

@Iszi there's obviously more here than it has been said. Per se, the ban seems wrong. But we won't be able to tell anyway.

That's what we get for being peasants: nothing.

That's why I did not argue at that time.

@M'vy Almost everything of use has already been asked and answered. 95% of the new questions and 95% of the new sites are just a waste of bytes.

@TerryChia Computer science evolves quickly. And, while I agree that with the time passing we get low quality content, there is definitely some good thing answered, and more quality answer to come.

@TerryChia Seems like something a philosopher once theorized about the state of human knowledge some decades ago.

@TerryChia You're wrong, but there's no issue with having an opinion and being totally wrong.

It's a problem of instructing the new users I think

well bbl

you spin my head right round right round like a record right round round

@DavidFreitag When was the last time you saw a genuinely interesting question on the site?

@TerryChia I don't know about you, but I use a few of the SE sites every day either for my job, or in my personal projects. If it closed today it would be absolutely ruinous.

@TerryChia Every damn day

@DavidFreitag All the information is archived.

If you don't see interesting questions it's either because you're blind or because you just don't care

@DavidFreitag I used to care. I don't care anymore because there isn't anything on the site to keep my interest. Hence my lack of activity.

Did you meet a girl torry?

@TerryChia Then that's your problem, not SE's

I'm getting really sick of people saying SE is shit and doing absolutely nothing to try to change it

@DavidFreitag It's SE's problem if this becomes widespread. Almost all the top 16 users on Sec.SE has stopped actively answering questions.

@TerryChia SE is the medium by which information is shared, it's up to the users to keep it interesting.

@DavidFreitag I haven't been on Meta.SE a whole lot myself lately. Got burned out in the Atwood days.

@DavidFreitag That's the problem. The "community" can't change anything because SEI doesn't help them.

We've been actively complaining about the general uselessness of chat mod tools for years. What have we got?

Well you obviously weren't complaining loudly enough.

SE is bad at responding to things like feature-requests, and we could really do with some more communication on those.

@DavidFreitag Believe me, we kicked up a huge fuss.

However, SE is very good at supporting its communities through just about everything else.

@TerryChia I'm just saying, SE isn't perfect, but they aren't what you are making them out to be

As a mod, I see this. If I need something done to keep my community running or happy, they'll do it.

And if they can't do it, they'll work with me to find an equivalent.

@ArtOfCode They are better at churning out new short lived communities than actually working to keep the existing ones alive.

@TerryChia That's because it's far easier to get a new community started than it is to support an existing one

rip Sex.SE

@TerryChia Untrue. It's been a while since I saw it from a user perspective, but their support for existing communities is amazing.

jumping in and slapping wrists on every little blowup feels overbearing though

@DavidFreitag When the guy who started the platform has become probably the most-downvoted person on Meta.SO, how's that not complaining loudly enough?