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6:01 PM
@CamilStaps LC is a very strange area indeed. How it works is pretty amazing. But most of the particulars are top secret. At one place I worked at it was so secret that our LC chemists actually didn't know the formulation of the LC itself. They just ordered from three different places and mixed it themselves. So definitive answers will be hard to come by.
Running away again cheers all.
 
user61389
@rawbrawb hehe :) thanks, bye!
 
@AnindoGhosh solved that too.
@CamilStaps respect the elderly!
@AnindoGhosh can you make it a bit more complicated?
 
user61389
@jippie I apologise, @AnindoGhosh :)
 
@AnindoGhosh the internal references will probably not be stable with Vcc <4.5V
 
@jippie You could add a voltage divider to protect against Vbatt > Vcc...
 
6:06 PM
@angelatlarge I believe the output driver can be controlled. So you can DDRB( SPI_OUTPUT_PIN ) = LOW and the pin goes high impedance.
 
@jippie you mean DDRB(SPI_OUTPUT_PIN) = HIGH?
 
@angelatlarge high after sending can be a stop-bit-condition
 
@jippie stop-bit? Does SPI do stop-bits? I thought that was just i2c
 
Data Direction Register (whoops not necessarily B )
SPI does regular UART too
and regular UART does stop bits
that are HIGH by default
@angelatlarge and DDRx is the driver state, not the pin state
 
@jippie Yes, and DDR=HIGH means pin is output. Low means it is input
@jippie Do you have a reference for that?
 
6:09 PM
driver can be INPUT (low) or output (HIGH) during SPI operations DDR must be HIGH for that pin
 
@jippie Agreed
@jippie A reference for that would be useful too
 
hmm I read it somewhere in errata
 
@jippie Do you know for which processor? I didn't see anything in the errata on SPI for ATmega328
 
@angelatlarge hmm can't find it right now, but it should be trivial to test
328
but can't find it right now either
 
@jippie Ok
 
6:18 PM
it is trivial to test.
@angelatlarge maybe I read it in a ATtiny datasheet, I have lots of AVR datasheets open all the time.
 
@jippie You are an experimentalist. Sometimes testing takes more effort, and more error prone. For instance right now I can't for the life of me get the clock divider to work as expected.
 
'more error prone' I call it: 'gaining practical experience'
@angelatlarge and I do study the datasheets, then remember only the important bits and to forget where I read it
 
@jippie hear hear (or is it here here?)
 
I just try to understand the architecture of the device, then things are easy to remember
 
user61389
@angelatlarge "hear hear"
 
6:27 PM
have you guys ever looked at the basic stats for all the sites
They are pretty odd somtimes.
 
user61389
@Kortuk ah, that link doesn't work. We'll have to get the list view and then sort on traffic.
 
like it seems we have double the questions per day of android, but half of the views and such.
@CamilStaps :(
 
@CamilStaps That's from Brit parlament, right?
 
user61389
@angelatlarge it is.
 
user61389
6:28 PM
@Kortuk that works! Thanks :)
 
@CamilStaps they are goofy to look at.
 
user61389
@Kortuk they have way more visits and fewer questions, and yet they don't manage to get as high an accept rate as we have :)
 
@CamilStaps look and compare some sites, I think it relates to they type of site they are, but still interesting.
I still enjoy this every time I see it:
2 days ago, by W5VO
@Kortuk One time I tasted a beautiful vintage 400V 150mA adjustable supply. It had a nice pop with a general mouth feel of lightly cooked meat and copper. The nose on the supply was an exotic warm dusty phenolic with hints of overheated carbon composition resistors. I would rate it 97/100
 
Oh, snap, I was resetting the CLKDIV in another place. Duh
@Kortuk That was beautiful
 
just so ridiculous.
 
user61389
6:34 PM
@Kortuk only the 7.1k questions/day and 5.7m vivits/day on SO. I do not envy the network administrators.
 
7k questions per day!?
 
@CamilStaps they have quite a few of them and they know their stuff
@jippie that is why on SO it makes sense to just edit party things, in 7k questions per day it is all noise.
 
@jippie Could it really be true that SPI is fed by Fosc and not Fcpu???
 
@Kortuk "just edit part things"?
 
Edit party* To remove a 200 use tag, users go in and edit it out of 200 questions
 
6:36 PM
@angelatlarge there are drawings on where the clock comes from
 
because bumping 200 questions is not even noticeable.
 
@angelatlarge with the prescaler, clock sources etc.. Images in the datasheet
/me is out for a few minutes
 
@jippie Yeah, on the drawing it shows the clock fed to SPI being after the clock divider, but the test says Fosc...
 
user61389
@Kortuk on SO, people don't go shouting when you go remove all the Thanks on the bottom of the questions :)
 
@CamilStaps ha, same reason, edit bumps dont matter there, going back and doing it to lots of questions here will flood the front page.
@CamilStaps the rule is easy, if you are going to edit out a "thanks" take the time to improve other things, then you are fine :)
 
user61389
6:39 PM
@Kortuk what about when there's nothing else to improve, actually?
 
@CamilStaps then dont edit it :)
 
user61389
@Kortuk ah :(
 
wait till something else bumps it, if it is already on the front page then go for it.
But honestly, if they said thanks, chances are that you could edit something else.
 
user61389
@Kortuk yeah well okay, that makes sense.
 
@CamilStaps Actually it is a bit sad. I 100% agree that we don't need "thanks" but there they are, being polite, and we chop that all off mercilessly
 
user61389
6:41 PM
@angelatlarge hmm, I don't know. When my first regards was edited out, it was quite a relief. Here, I didn't have to keep my signature up to date :)
 
@jippie Experimentally determined: SPI clock is fed by the raw oscillator. Instane. Your CPI is running at 150Khz, but it is sending SPI at 10Mhz. I'll send you logic analyzer logs, if you'd like.
 
user61389
Ah, the good ol' times I wasn't aware of SE and just did my homework. Anyway, I'm out as well for a few minutes.
 
@CamilStaps later.
 
@angelatlarge spi runs from the RC-osc? cool :o)
 
@jippie I am running of 20Mhz crystal (I need all the speed I can get).
@jippie It is still possible that I did something very wrong, but I am looking at a logic analyzer trace where the clock signal is out on CLKO pin of the ATmega, and the SPI clock is running in circles around the mcu clock :)
 
6:54 PM
yes, but spi is not clocked from the crystal if i understand you correctly, right?
 
@jippie It is clocked from whatever clock source you are using for your mcu, but from the looks of it is bypasses the clock divider
 
it has it's own prescaler
 
@jippie RIght. But that's crazy: it's prescaler should be fed by the MCU clock, not MCU clock source.
@jippie TImers have their own prescalers too, but I think those are fed by the MUC clock
 
@angelatlarge not sure if I agree
 
@jippie I thought one of the points of MCU clock prescaler is so that you can use clocks above 20mhz, divide it inside the mcu and not be in the "do you feel lucky?" region...
 
6:59 PM
no max clock input is 20MHz to my knowledge. Which prescaler are you referring to? The one set by the fuses?
I wouldn't mind if Atmel updated AVR's to run at 200MHz ;o)
 
@jippie YOu don't have to use the fuses to do it: 9.12.2 CLKPR – Clock Prescale Register
@jippie THe fuses just set it do default 8x divider, but you can update that in S/W
@jippie +1
Des anyone know, can one trust the timings when using bus pirate as logic analyzer?
I am getting weird data: I expect my MCU to be clocked at 20Mhz/64clkdiv ~ 300kHz, but looking at the collected data it looks more like 71kHz
 
7:29 PM
@angelatlarge bus pirate sound slightly familiar
300 vs 71kHz sounds like a factor 4 error
 
@jippie The internal references are bandgap refs. Stable until Vcc approaches Vref
@angelatlarge Check family errata, not proc specific
 
@AnindoGhosh that calls for a test ;o)
 
@angelatlarge Timers are also from MCU clock source not from scaled clock.
 
@AnindoGhosh What?! Rly?
@AnindoGhosh You are turning my world upside down.
 
:o)
 
7:41 PM
@angelatlarge I believe so. Test it. This is true of several different families of MCU. The rationale is, you can run MCU slow to save power, yet timers should run as best they can.
 
i believe so too.
 
@AnindoGhosh Hmmm.. I see...
 
@angelatlarge Bus pirate timing drifts by several percentage, invariably drifting in one direction, I forget which - largely because of processing overheads causing missed interrupts.
 
Apparently I misread the datasheet: on CLKPS: "This feature should be used if the selected clock source has a higher frequency than the maximum frequency of the device at the present operating conditions"
@AnindoGhosh Yeah, several percentage points would be nice.
 
2
Q: BJT Bias Design and Operating

favner85I'm to the task to design a BJT Common-Emitter Amplifier with resistance at the emitter as in the figure, and for that I need to: get the values for \$R_{1}\$, \$R_{2}\$, \$R_{C}\$ and \$R_{E}\$ given \$I_{CQ} = 3\text{mA}\$ , \$V_{CEQ} = 6.5\text{V}\$ ,\$V_{CC}=13\text{V}\$ and \$\beta = 380\...

am I overlooking someting @guys?
 
7:48 PM
@jippie TL;DR :)
 
@angelatlarge it is quality material!
 
@jippie Superficially, seems like you are right. But solving things of this sort is not my strong suit.
 
Can an AVR receive serial data on UART while running different routines?
I guess it should just work, shouldn't it?
 
@jippie Yes. I know it can send data on SPI while running different routines.
@jippie It's our version of "parallel processing" :)
@jippie Pretty damn cool!
 
Yeah, I only need to interrupt the regular routines to load the data from the register into main memory, right? What happens if in the mean time new serial data arrives, I mean, before I read the received data register?
Have to study the datasheet tomorrow I guess. Too tired now.
 
7:58 PM
That "i know that input impedance in an amplifier is kept as high as possible to reduce the effects of this phenomenon" comment exasperated me. Sounds like certain arrogant older gentlemen I hear of. "I know" as a basis for a hypothesis.
 
@AnindoGhosh I've seen that sentence before.
I think it is someone else though
 
hey
 
Vineet Kaushik, the Loading Effects question. I notice that some of the worst attitudes, and the most poorly formulated questions and comments are by my countrymen (and women). This is embarrassing.
 
Crap. Just realized what my problem with serial loading via SPI is.
 
@Jaigus Hey yourself.
 
8:01 PM
@angelatlarge ?
 
Do any of you do embedded development?
 
@Jaigus Us? Nah.
 
embedded .. does that have anything to do with going to sleep?
2
 
Ah, power systems then?
 
ah power nap!
 
8:02 PM
@jippie no :P
 
AVR SPI only works on 8-bit data. I need to send 12-bit data. As I am shuffling nibbles into bytes, I end with an extra nibble, which shifts everything out of place.
 
@angelatlarge traitor!!
 
AND since you cannot bit-twiddle output ports while SPI is active on those ports, I'll have to shut down the SPI just to send the last nibble. DAMN!
 
@angelatlarge hmm maybe @Jaigus didn't see that
 
@Jaigus (I was joking)
 
8:03 PM
@angelatlarge Any way to pad the nibble and send a byte?
 
Yeah I realize that by scrolling up
<- first time here
 
Do you people know, is it bad to tie two AVR GPIO pins configged as output and use them in an OR-ed fashion
 
@angelatlarge just shift your data 4 bits back before you send it
 
@AnindoGhosh That's the problem: if I pad the nibble to send a byte, all the values in the LED drivers shift!
 
EE is so broad so I wasn't sure if the group of people here now would be into dev
 
8:04 PM
@Jaigus Welcome!
 
@angelatlarge it is bad if the pins do not change state at exactly the same time. the max current is easily reached
 
Thanks. I finished a CS degree last summer and have been trying get into this stuff. I'm looking to get a MS/ME in EE or CE
but trying to learn what I can myself in the mean time : ?
 
@Jaigus I understand EE, but what are the other abbreviations?
 
@Jaigus I would say about half to three quarters of the people here do, or occasionally do, embedded work in its various flavors - from actual semiconductor design, to FPGA / CPLD work, to microcontrollers, to full SoC systems. Skills span the range from semiconductor optics and chemistry, through theoretical and applied physics, to advanced high-level software skills. I hope this helps.
 
@jippie Ah, yes, I see. Low output pin = sink.
 
8:06 PM
@AnindoGhosh Thanks, it sure does
 
@jippie Riiiiight. Well, I could stick a diode in there to make sure that it doesn't.
 
@angelatlarge that might work, yes. ... Does it work in both directions?
 
@jippie YOu mean input vs output? I just need the output.
 
I tried looking for a good intro in to electronics and designing circuits from coursera, but alas none are up yet : /
 
@jippie I want to manually bit-bang the last nibble without shutting down SPI
 
8:08 PM
with pins LOW and HIGH
 
@Jaigus Speaking of EE being broad, you will also find a wealth of analog electronics wisdom here, even including obsolete (I prefer the term legacy) technologies. However most of the time, all you will find here is a bunch of old-timers (e.g. me) pulling the leg of some youngster (e.g. them).
 
@jippie Using two diodes, I am expecting an OR-type logic: if either pin is high, output is high.
 
@angelatlarge 5V/40mA = 125ohm. You can add a 68ohm resistor to both pins :)
 
@jippie Of course, I could also use an or gate
 
@AnindoGhosh lol sounds like fun
 
8:09 PM
@angelatlarge solve it in software :-p
 
@jippie Takes too long. This is time critical. People might die.
@jippie ...If the leds on my bike don't blink just right.
 
@angelatlarge I strongly believe there is something you are doing wrong in this entire business - a hybrid of hardware SPI and bit bashed SPI in the same data stream rings all the alarm bells for me. There must be something obvious you are missing.
 
@AnindoGhosh That would be good.
 
@AnindoGhosh I'm a bit lost too ...
 
@AnindoGhosh I just bought the AVR STK500 board to play around with, but I'm still looking for a more formal course online for a better foundation
 
8:11 PM
@angelatlarge Diodes have been used as OR gates since time immemorial. Please google diode logic.
 
@AnindoGhosh THe main problem is: I need to send 12-bit "bytes" over 8-bit byte channel.
 
@Jaigus ah AVR is good, better than those PIC's that require german mnemonics
 
@AnindoGhosh I know. I've done that before
@jippie Because everything German is bad :)
 
@Jaigus There are a few basic books I always recommend. Maybe I'll look up a recent answer, hold on.
 
@angelatlarge everything except my car
 
8:12 PM
@jippie Actually, this is coming from a speaker of a very Germanic language!
 
@AnindoGhosh I watched an interesting video of how magnets where used as logic gates youtube.com/watch?v=p7SkE5pERtA
 
@angelatlarge but strictly speaking that is british
 
@jippie I think that question is underconstrained
 
@W5VO not sure what you mean by 'underconstrained'
 
@Jaigus Jeri does some nice videos.
@jippie Too many moving parts.
 
8:13 PM
@jippie I don't think you have enough information for a single solution
 
@jippie I was advised to stay away from PIC because they apparently have unusual and inconsistent architectures
 
Everyone run! @W5VO is here to moderate your ass!
@W5VO (Hello)
 
@W5VO I agree, that is the whole point. It needs at least the gain (and probably which pin is out and input).
 
2
A: No previous knowledge of programming, considering electrical engineering

Anindo GhoshWhile this question is not within the norms for this site, it is one frequently asked, so here is an outline, take it where you will: It would behoove you to get a couple of books to gather a preliminary understanding of electronic design in general, e.g. Practical Electronics for Inventors, ...

 
@AnindoGhosh +1
 
8:15 PM
@Jaigus Check the books listed in that answer. I think 2 or maybe all 3 are $1 each in ebook form if you look around.
 
@AnindoGhosh Thanks, appreciated
 
@angelatlarge Thanks, but that wasn't for your attention :-) You're past that (I hope)
 
@AnindoGhosh Past ADD? No.
@AnindoGhosh But no, I wasn't accusing you of rep jipping
 
@angelatlarge I've been rep jippie-ing - giving him and others tips to improve their answers.
But when I am in one of my slutty days, I can rep-ho with the best of them.
 
OK, I have to go and do laundry now. I've been wearing the same pants for longer than I care to admit.
 
8:19 PM
@jippie the other abbreviations are Master of Science/Engineering and Computer Engineering (sorry didn't see your post)
 
Peace out
 
@angelatlarge Have fun.
 
time to embed myself
way past my embed time
 
Oh @jippie I dropped one conversation partway earlier: SOT23 on stripboard. I use it for SOT23-4 packages. Not the 5 and 6 pin ones.
 
@AnindoGhosh ah those don't have the middle pin, do they?
 
8:24 PM
@jippie Correct.
 
that makes sense
/me is out
 
Basically I cut the copper at the hole on two parallel strips. That gives me 4 copper conduction strips for the 4 leads. Then, the upper two partial strips, I solder-jumper them to the next parallel rows. So at the bottom, I have 4 stripboard strips, ready for the header pins for a 4-pin SIP module for breadboard.
@jippie g'night
I think I'll sign out too. Night pEEplz
 
8:39 PM
@AnindoGhosh take care
 
9:30 PM
@jippie Night.
@AnindoGhosh night.
 
9:42 PM
@DavidKessner thanks :)
 
@Kortuk No prob.
 
@DavidKessner I am tempted to make a post saying if you see him flag as spam on meta, but I probably wont.
 
10:08 PM
Hola
 
 
1 hour later…
11:18 PM
@angelatlarge allo
 
11:30 PM
@ScottSeidman allo
 

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