The Sphinx's Lair

Gareth McCaughan

14:11

A cryptic clue consists of a definition part, which needs to be something that at least kinda-defines the actual answer, and a wordplay part, which constructs the answer according to a fairly strict set of rules. Sometimes there's something like "is" or "yields" between the two.

So far as I can see, there is no part of the clue that defines SEASHELLS.

And so far as I can see, you haven't given any explanation for the part of the clue that says "An algorithm to cut off", nor why SHELLS would come after the "underwater stuff".

Also, the sea isn't underwater. The sea is the water.

user478740

How 'bout you, Gareth? What do you think?

Gareth McCaughan

If you mean what do I think the answer is, I don't know yet. There's a famous sorting algorithm called SHELLSORT but I don't see any way to make the wordplay yield that and it would be a bit inelegant to have SHELLS right there in the clue if that's the answer.

user478740

I'm good at making CC's, but bad at answering them :(

Gareth McCaughan

I wonder whether somehow we're taking SHELLSORT and "cutting off" SHELLS to leave ORT, but there doesn't then seem to be enough clue left over to fit in the remaining wordplay and a definition.

msh210

@GarethMcCaughan I'll dispute that last point (but agree with the rest). When we refer to something as being "underwater" we mean it's beneath the surface of the water. So — only when needed in a word puzzle and never in real conversation — I think it'd be fair to refer to the water itself as "underwater".

user478740

14:15

I even made 3 different CC's myself if I was next in the CCCC

Gareth McCaughan

@msh210 Maybe. But you also thought it was fair to define TRASH as "An old saw ends like this", so ... :-)

msh210

:-D

user478740

Guess there's no chance of me giving out my CCs, hmmmm :(

msh210

@Anonymus25 Might I recommend that, the first time, you get someone to test-solve it before you use it?

Gareth McCaughan

Very good idea.

user478740

14:16

That works!

user478740

But how?

Sphinx

1

Q: A simple puzzle with a bit of thinking

Here is a simple puzzle, can be challenging as well. How can you divide the board into exactly $2$ equal-shaped pieces such that it fits the hole? Bonus: Can you do the same problem in $3$ pieces, such that one of the pieces of the board has the sides of a square? If no, then what is the minimu...

-1

Q: Is there any triangles named with three letters?

My name is Gabbie and I have a question today. Can any triangles be named with three letters?

geometry

msh210

@Anonymus25 I wouldn't say that. Read the guide linked to above; read other clues and their solutions; and you'll get better at solving.

@Anonymus25 Don't worry. There are ways. When the time comes, you and your solver can figure it out.

bobble

14:36

If you just want to know whether your clues are legal, you can post one with its intended wordplay so we can check it

Gareth McCaughan

But of course you can't then use it for a C4.

bobble

Some help me figure out what to do: is this question Needs More Focus because it asks two related questions that will have quite different solutions?

Bubbler

SHELLSORT is not the answer, but you're on the right track (to some extent).

bobble

I'm trying to learn how to use my new close-vote abilities properly

matt

14:51

@bobble a good idea. is it just me or is the text in here a bit bigger?

bobble

I'm not good at spotting that kind of stuff

matt

nvm

Bubbler

I'm going to bed now, and I'm rarely online on weekends. I'll try to come and see how it goes as often as possible though

bobble

okay! see you!

North Læraðr

@bobble Yeah, I'm not sure if this question needed a close vote. I don't know what you voted but I'm not sure why it was voted to be closed

Why are they saying it's speculative? The correct answer was already found, no?

bobble

14:54

I didn't closevote that, and I usually don't pay much attention to riddles

North Læraðr

I'm usually pretty I guess "strict" in regards to what I close-vote (I close vote frequently) but even that was just random

bobble

The other answers don't fit the riddle as well (my opinion). Yeah, I wouldn't have voted there.

North Læraðr

Was it a bad riddle? I thought so. Did it deserve to be closed? Not really

bobble

To be honest, I think most of the riddles here are low-quality, simply because people think "ooh, I'm smart with my misdirection" and then it just goes off the rails

Some are great, however

North Læraðr

One thing I do have to say about Riley Riddles in all their annoying crap is that they are straightforward

Like great riddle design

Just way too overused

bobble

14:57

sometimes the affixes are clued too indirectly, though

Sciborg

To be honest I don't care for Riley Riddles, if only because they're so overused and they're so vague and hard to approach.

bobble

I've ignored affix-riddle and have my settings so that I don't see anything tagged with it.

North Læraðr

True. I think the concept behind Rileys are pretty great though

oAlt

15:21

@Ankoganit heh

Sciborg

@bobble Didn't even think about that, now I have it set to "ignore" as well

Good idea

matt

16:04

i just made a glucose molecule out of glucose molecules

Gareth McCaughan

I can do that too. In fact, I only need one.

matt

no i mean like one of those ball-and-stick models

Gareth McCaughan

(I know -- I was just making a joke.)

matt

:)

North Læraðr

Nooooooooo I failed my math test

matt

16:06

how badly?

Lukas Rotter

:(

North Læraðr

@matt I think either 6/9 or 5/9

And the thing is, it's not that I didn't know, I was just tired and I wasn't really awake

The stuff I missed wasn't stuff I didn't know, I just didn't process

Like one of them was like "least number of imaginary numbers"

And I made like the chart for Descarte Rule of Signs

And then I put 2

Even though I literally wrote zero in one of the columns

matt

not good

North Læraðr

Another one, I forgot that imaginary numbers come in conjugate pairs so I put down the least number of roots as 3

matt

:(

North Læraðr

16:09

I think the answer was 4 or 5 I'm not sure

The pinnacle of my failiure is demonstrated in one of the answers where I put (rad2)^2 as 4

matt

what is rad2

Deusovi

√2, I assume

mistakes like that happen - no need to beat yourself up over it

North Læraðr

square root of 2?

@Deusovi I have a C- in that class though

Deusovi

the best way to get better is practice

North Læraðr

I really needed this quiz to boost my grade, but it's going to drop me back down to probably a D+ again

cries

matt

16:11

@Deusovi i second this

@NorthLæraðr my dog's internal monologue: "everything'll be fine, hooman"

North Læraðr

AHHH

matt

what

North Læraðr

I'm just not awake today

matt

doggo-speak: "then take a snooze"

bobble

you need some more sunlight! got to get that photosynthesis started

matt

16:14

indeed

here, North.. teleports my meta-glucose to you

North Læraðr

The worst part is I knew how to do it

But I don't get any partial credit for that kind of stuff

Last year, my teacher gave partial credit if he at least saw your work and where you messed up

Getting the answer was only one portion

matt

Screaming religious excrement! (4, 4)

bobble

coughs I gave partial credit

North Læraðr

This is multiple choice though :(....

matt

well that sucks (no i won't post this on r/wellthatsucks)

North Læraðr

16:19

These errors were just so

sigh

bobble

would you like some bobblies to do a bobble-dance just for you?

North Læraðr

Whatever, I'll stop ranting on this chat

@bobble That would actually be adorable XD

bobble

they bobble up and down and say "baa-boow, baa-boow"

North Læraðr

Hahaha

bobble

and they go in little circles and jump all over each other

matt

16:21

oh btw what was the cccc solution?

i missed it

North Læraðr

T+RAIN

No

T+RASH

matt

HOW

North Læraðr

Precipitate means RASH

part of "T"he I think?

Gareth McCaughan

yup

Avi

@msh210 omae wa mou... shindeiru

Gareth McCaughan

16:22

the definition is the really tragic part

North Læraðr

Yeah

How were we supposed get TRASH as "An old saw ends like this"

Deusovi

by figuring out the wordplay

matt

> You already. .. .. Squeezed

North Læraðr

@Deusovi idk. Msh kinda sus

bobble

what does "sus" mean here?

Avi

16:26

@matt ????

matt

@Avi google translate

@bobble suspicious

Avi

It means "you are already... dead"

matt

not according to google translate

Avi

google translate is wrong then

this is a well known phrase

or wait

it means "do you want to die"

apparently idk

or possibly, "how do you want to die."

implied

idk

I have 0 knowledge of japanese

bobble

why are all those lines really short?

Avi

16:29

ask me to do Spanish translations and I might have some guesses and intuitions (with google translate's help lol)

@bobble which lines

bobble

the chat messages

each on its own line

like this

Avi

their length indictates the maximum extent of my knowledge of japanese

5 hours ago, by Ankoganit

Maybe the real C4 solution is the friends we make along the way

@bobble :(

I didn't like this clue because I thought the definition didn't work at all, and sacrificed Sciborg's hair for the pun

matt

@bobble i recommend reading seximal.net/punctuation

North Læraðr

16:48

@bobble Sus means suspicious. It's like a meme reference

bobble

me not good with da memes

North Læraðr

Me neither, except I play games so

Ankoganit

It's an among us thing, I think?

North Læraðr

Yea yea

Avi

"Orange sus - he ran out of medbay and we found dead bodies in there shortly after"

North Læraðr

16:51

Msh is imposter he sus

Avi

Msh's clue was the imposter

matt

@north liked your conlang puzzle!

North Læraðr

Thanks!

matt

@Avi and we are the dead bodies

Deusovi

Avi, that's enough.

Avi

16:52

@matt yeahhh

matt

@Deusovi w- ?

North Læraðr

@matt Hehe lol as soon as you said that I got a downvote. The irony

Avi

@matt basically, I didn't like the clue at all, to the extent of directly insulting it

too far, but it was suspicious, for sure

matt

@NorthLæraðr hmm

North Læraðr

Hm, I feel like I did something wrong with the puzzle in order for Gareth and his algorithm to be stumped

bobble

16:55

Avi

good luck

matt

meanwhile my ridiculous conlang still hasn't a complete phonology

Deusovi

don't you generally make the phonology first?

matt

that is what i am doing

Avi

do you need a phonology?

Deusovi

16:56

...yes?

Avi

I would just make a bunch of verbs

and some rules for conjugation

Deusovi

unless your conlang happens to only be written

the phonology is literally the set of sounds you can make

some languages have different sounds than others

Avi

@Deusovi isn't that the intent?

matt

in this case i don't need a phonology except to read my words

Avi

unless you actually want people to speak your language outside the puzzle

matt

16:57

which i do not, at least not yet

Deusovi

well, grammatical rules are generally based off of sound rather than spelling

matt

so i do need a phonology

Deusovi

and you should have a consistent allowed syllable structure to even begin to form words

Avi

I see, I'll stick to grid deduction then

Deusovi

(e.g. spanish has "busco"→"busqué" because it's based off of sound rather than spelling - it's not "busce")

Avi

16:58

mmm, makes sense

so exceptions in spelling match consistencies in language

Deusovi

if you do have exceptional spelling, yes

even if your spelling is perfectly regular though, there's still a lot of important things to do with a phonology -- it allows you to define phonotactics, the rules for how syllables should be laid out

for instance, in english, we have the rule that /h/ can never be at the end of the word, and /ŋ/ (the "ng" sound) can never be at the beginning of one

North Læraðr

So many stuff to consider

matt

so like codas and nuclei and stuff?

Deusovi

that's why "hing" sounds like it could be an english word (even though it doesn't mean anything), but "ngihh" doesn't

matt

@NorthLæraðr exactly, which is why i have enever tried making a conlang before

Deusovi

17:00

@matt exactly

North Læraðr

@Deusovi Ah

matt

@Deusovi my favorite example is "ngarf" (thanks, jan misali)

North Læraðr

That's kind of cool, actually

Deusovi

other languages do allow words starting with /ŋ/ - to them, it might not seem out of the ordinary. and of course some languages have different sounds altogether - my favorite is the welsh lateral fricatives.

(put your tongue in the position like you're making an "l" sound, but instead breathe out like you're making an "h". the air will flow around your tongue and it'll give a weird hissing sound that kinda sounds like "sh")

@matt (jan misali's great!)

North Læraðr

@Deusovi Oooooh, that's fun

matt

17:03

there's one language with [ŋmkpɾ]

@Deusovi YESSS

Deusovi

(been watching his stuff for a few years now, big fan)

matt

i've been watching his stuff for like 2 months, love "w"

Deusovi

@NorthLæraðr it is! that's the ll in welsh, which you might know from the name "lloyd" (which is sometimes transliterated to english as "floyd" -- hopefully you can see why!), or as the first sound of "llanfair pg", the really long welsh town name

matt

ah yes, llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

North Læraðr

@Deusovi hhhyyoid?

Deusovi

17:05

@NorthLæraðr that's how it's pronounced in welsh!

(assuming "hhhyyy" is an approximation of the voiceless lateral fricative sound)

North Læraðr

That's really really fun to do

@Deusovi Yeah, I can't really described it in English

matt

in the ipa it's a "belted" l

Deusovi

ɬ

but yeah this syllable structure difference is one thing that makes different languages sound different! some languages are a lot more restrictive - spanish, for instance, doesn't allow /sk/ at the start of syllables, which is why "school" (from latin "schola") becomes "escuela". they can't start syllables that way - it's not a natural thing

matt

ngarf

also how did you type that fast

@Deusovi interesting!

Deusovi

spanish has also loanworded the english "snob", and it's loaned as "esnob" for the same reason

North Læraðr

17:08

@Deusovi Wait is it "i" as in "ee" sound right?

Deusovi

@NorthLæraðr huh? /i/ is the vowel in "beet", but i didn't mention that anywhere

matt

@NorthLæraðr spanish <e> is [e]

Deusovi

in spanish that is indeed the /e/ vowel, written "e"

North Læraðr

> (put your tongue in the position like you're making an "l" sound, but instead breathe out like you're making an "h". the air will flow around your tongue and it'll give a weird hissing sound that kinda sounds like "sh")

Oh "L"

Deusovi

ah that's a lowercase l, not an uppercase I

North Læraðr

17:10

Do you pronounce the l and then do the hissy hissy at the same time?

matt

uppercase I in here has serifs unless on mobile

Deusovi

you don't actually pronounce the L sound

you put your mouth in the position to do that, but instead you make a hissing sound

North Læraðr

Oh oka, so I have been doing it right

matt

I also like /ç/: it's like /i/ but hissing kind of

hue

Deusovi

oh yeah, was just about to mention that "hue" has it

Sphinx

17:14

0

Q: Mystery of the two hearts

There was this popular girl in Facebook who had many followers. One day, she posted this post in her Facebook for fun and engagement: It's lazy facts day! Comment one lazy fact down below! So the lazy facts started pouring in. There were "The sky is not always blue", "Chocolates are sweet", "I...

riddle mystery

matt

resists urge to go down the linguistics rabbit hole

although i am a bit confused about palatals: how is /c/ different from /tj/?

Deusovi

put your tongue in the position to make a /j/ sound, but just make a /t~k/-ish sound instead

matt

t~k meaning either one, or?

Deusovi

you're looking to make a sound "in between" them, so either one probably works as an approximation

matt

my tongue lacks the necessary maneuverability

yeah i'm just saying /t/

Deusovi

17:21

i think it's very similar to /t/ but your tongue should be touching further back in your mouth, instead of on/near your teeth

matt

hmm

Deusovi

(but i have trouble with palatals too)

Avi

it's like shloyd

:(

and very difficult to do

matt

@Deusovi these darn palatals

North Læraðr

@Avi I'd say it's more like hhhhyyoyld

matt

17:22

labializations are like the easiest for me

Avi

@NorthLæraðr if your tongue is lower

matt

21 mins ago, by matt

there's one language with [ŋmkpɾ]

bobble

17:44

I ran out of time! Never happened to me before

One of the questions required writing down a lot of equations, and I spent >10 minutes trying to write down the (obscenely long) notation

matt

:(

Avi

The Art of Uncertainty, a book by Kood B. Wright

Escape Artistry, a book by Ron A. Way

The Nature of Fate, a book by Dustin E.

Finding the Unfindable, a book by Still C. King

bobble

18:04

what is the limit of your puns?

Avi

On Religion, a book by D. Vout

I'm looking for 26 puns, one for each letter of the alphabet

want to help?

bobble

I have a "mandatory" pep rally right now, so sure

Small-Time Fines, a book by J. Walker

hehe skipped ahead

Avi

Virtues of Voodoo, a book by F. E. Gee

hmmm I would like a clearer F one

bobble

Can't Keep a Date, a book by Anne X.

Avi

Pure Productivity, a book by F. E. Shent

bobble

18:13

Half the Universe, a book by O. Snap

not sure about that one

and "mandatory" pep rally is over, so bye!

Avi

ok, see you :)

Avoiding War, a book by Rey Few G.

Avi

18:28

Growing a Nest Egg, a book by H. E. Ken

this one isn't valid, but it's punny

Revenge, a book by I. Í.

(i foreign i, or "eye for an eye")

matt

i keep getting timed out :(

Avi

it's probably lag that would do something like that - check internet connection?

matt

also i like bobble's can't keep a date

Avi

that one is good - it's in the list

same with the jaywalker one

matt

what other letters do you need?

Avi

18:38

i, k-w, y-z

H was a toughie

matt

Agreement, by O. Kay

idk

Avi

Anger Management, a book by I. Rate

Cluelessness, a book by Nu I. Dea

False Charges, a book by I. Awn

which one do you think is best?

matt

i kinda don't get any of them tbh

why even are you doing this?
(says the one making the worst conlang ever)

Avi

irate = angry

not quite the person to be writing a book on anger management

cluelessness embodies somebody who has "no idea"

Charges, ions

matt

i see

Avi

18:49

Arctic Expeditions, a book by I. Sickle

matt

Vision, by I. See

there's one!

no that one'sdumb

gvh4btgt

Avi

it's not dumb, it's just more straightforward

I'm aiming for a little bit more obscurity, but not so much that nobody can figure out what I'm doing

(which is why I scrapped the "Revenge, a book by I. Í." one)

Atlantis, a book by Sunk I. Land

I like this one

matt

yeah

I.C. could also work for Canada

Avi

7 mins ago, by Avi

Arctic Expeditions, a book by I. Sickle

Icicle

bobble

Procrastination, a book by Lay Z.

Avi

18:56

nice!

The Open Door policy, a book by Y. Doe Pen

matt

nice

:)

bobble

Back to the Start, a book by W. Tern

Avi

isn't that U. Tern

bobble

double-U turn

so you turn 180 twice

Avi

that means you keep going the same direction

matt

18:59

how about double u-turn

bobble

yeah, back to where you started when you started turning

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