The Sphinx's Lair

North Læraðr

01:00

Okay here's an idea

TEETH, THE -> ETH, ET ends part?

TEETH?

Yeah, it looked better in my head

Sciborg

...too stretchy, yeah

I mean there is TOOTH, but...

North Læraðr

STEEL is the end part of most saws

user478740

@Sciborg Wait, you might be onto something...

North Læraðr

@Sciborg Ends is plural though

Sciborg

Yeah, just a thought.

North Læraðr

01:03

I mean, TOOTH perhaps for An old saw ends like this part

Sciborg

but then "of the precipitate" gives no obvious wordplay to get us there

bobble

count of thoughts we've had?

Sciborg

Too goddamn many

North Læraðr

msh you monster

bobble

bye for now :)

Sciborg

01:04

Good night <3

North Læraðr

Okay, my alien language puzzle has been posted

I can't guarantee it'll be fun, but it will be hard! That combines to mean annoying!

Sciborg

Nice!

North Læraðr

I promise the next one will be a bit more enjoyable

Sphinx

0

Q: Alien Language Test Run

Given the following sentences... The being ate the Earthling Chwtwobattaxkof kwmwhtiesh kielokebbexkof They are ordering the Earthling Vophanihdiezh kielokebbexkof I am serving a dinner Bsazakiehdiazh rachatebbexkof I cook a Earthling Krwotihdiosh kielokebbexkof The beings eat Earthlings, bu...

language

North Læraðr

Wow, that was fast

@Sphinx It only took four minutes for Sphinx to post it here!

Anyhow, back to the C4

Sciborg

01:15

This sounds silly but have we considered STORY?

North Læraðr

I doubt it

Did we?

Sciborg

I honestly don't think we have

North Læraðr

How would STORY fit though?

Sciborg

No clue

Just a synonym that popped up for old saw/proverb

North Læraðr

Cation/anion. Hm

Sciborg

01:17

We had considered ANION a while back but got nowhere.

Avi

01:29

"Solution.java:165: error: package java.util.function does not exist" - yes it doessss

this is what I get for trying to program in Java 8 when the latest is like Java 15

Sciborg

ooof, relatable

Avi

I tried programming some but it turned out to be equally as annoying as this CCCC

tragic

Sciborg

One of my previous app projects required Java 8 and I remember it being an absolute nightmare of compatibility breakage

Bubbler

It's tragic that you use Java at all

Sciborg

Hey, sometimes Java is just the best tool for the job. No language is inherently better than any other, they're just good for different things.

Avi

01:32

1. Earthlings are tasty?

Bubbler

What do you use Java for? (just curious)

Avi

uhhhhh

I'm like super expert at Java

my Java speed is approximately equal to scripting language speed

North Læraðr

@Avi I may have made the translation section too easy. Oh well

Sciborg

I use it mostly for app projects, my current one uses Java with Spring+Maven

Avi

currently learning APIs in C#

North Læraðr

01:33

@Avi And no

Avi

because Java flipped every developer a big bird by making Java 9+ cost money for corporate environments

PER CORE

Bubbler

Wat

Avi

ah, it was per core when drafted? (I think I saw it somewhere)

may be per user

Sciborg

i vaguely recall something like that, i don't think they ended up doing it though.

It was heatedly opposed

North Læraðr

It's so weird posting in PSE again

It's been such a long time

Avi

01:36

@Sciborg yeah that's because it was retarded af

"Desktop pricing is $2.50 per user per month, or lower with tiered volume discounts. Processor pricing for use on Servers and/or Cloud deployments is $25.00 per month or lower." - current pricing

But either way

instead of dealing with the hassle of setting up payments with Java

and losing all those profits

many companies have just stuck to providing java 8 at max

especially coding challenge sites, which is a massive pain

Bubbler

That's too bad, seriously

Sciborg

chuckles nervously in pirated jvms/jres

Avi

because I personally develop with latest version (and update when the newer ones come out), and I'm used to all the convenience

@Sciborg only matters if you're a corporation lol

North Læraðr

All these fancy coder talk

Avi

basically

Java screwed up

North Læraðr

01:39

I know html

Avi

and now I've gotta move to C#

Sciborg

HTML is sorta coding :D

Avi

but I want to finish the last HackerRank Java challenge

North Læraðr

@Avi Isn't C# like the standard language anyways or is that something else

Avi

it basically is, with JavaScript being the default for web

Sciborg

01:40

@NorthLæraðr There's not really a "standard" language per se, there's different standards for different projects

Like yeah, JavaScript is the standard for web

North Læraðr

@Sciborg I forgot all my HTML in my fourth-grade "coding" class\

Avi

and anyways BiFunction is apparently not even existent in Java 8

which is a LIE

North Læraðr

The most useful thing I learned was how to use the copy-paste function. That is NOT a joke

Avi

because it IS existent - I looked it upppp

Sciborg

Literally copy-paste is secretly a programmer's most useful asset

ah yes, look at this documentation, imma just - yoink

Avi

01:41

1. Earthlings are beings

Sciborg

look at this pretty implementation of this function, imma just - yoink

Avi

ya I basically just memorized most of the documentation

because it was taking too long to look it up

C# is gonna be a long haul lol

Sciborg

80% of my job is being really good at googling keywords and knowing what documentation sites to visit

Avi

map dictionary list set

ayy lmao

and the name of the language

C++ is a little wonkier but oh well that's why I don't use it

Bubbler

And google will give you a SO question

that may or may not work for you

Avi

01:44

ya all you do is yoink the part that you need

Sciborg

I wish I could get into joining StackOverflow but to be honest it feels very hostile to post there these days, probably not on purpose and I'm sure they complain about that perception but like... I can vet my question 5 times to make sure it's not a duplicate or off-topic and I still get attacked for being stupid in the comments.

Avi

it's all about google + stackoverflow

google is the better search engine

and you limit to site:stackoverflow.com

Sciborg

Basically, yeah.

Bubbler

Actually, in some sense, programming is solving a puzzle by combining the available building blocks

Avi

I'd say it's more holistic design

Sciborg

01:46

Probably why I like Puzzling so much :D

Bubbler

The problem is that you don't get to remember every single building block you need for every task you'll face

Sciborg

Problem solving is fun

Avi

"how can I do this.... without infuriating 7 other people........"

Sciborg

"how do I deliver this feature that I should have the help of 3 other people on... in a month... with just me working on it..."

Avi

yeah i tried that last one

didn't work

:(

Sciborg

01:48

And don't even get me started on f*cking "Agile Development" strategies

Agile people can shove it

No offense if you like it lol, I just hate it

Avi

idk

I think it would work for microservices development

Sciborg

In my experience it's just used as an excuse to overwork developers to make crazy deadlines and have a micromanaging "scrum master" breathing down your neck

Bubbler

Yeah, it depends on situation

Avi

@Sciborg that's not agile :(

agile is more like "test now so you don't get *************ed later"

Sciborg

I mean in theory agile is great, but I've only ever had a negative experience with places that use it. I admit I'm biased.

It just felt like it was an excuse to push deadlines to the point of breaking people.

Avi

01:50

problem is you just have to estimate testing time

to be very long

Bubbler

@Sciborg Same for me

Avi

I highly doubt management actually understands that "agile" means TDD to some extent, versus "Agile means fast!"

Sciborg

@Avi Yeah. Management doesn't always get the point.

Avi

Agile-ly solving this CCCC would be like

does this def match the wp? no? not going to tell msh then

and then "Agile"-ly solving this CCCC would be like

msh msh msh is this it!!!!!

Sciborg

Lol

Bubbler

01:52

XD

Sciborg

Agile would be fantastic and amazing IF management fully understood it, implemented it correctly, and didn't crunch people to death.

Avi

The whole principle is an hour now saves a day later

If you crunch on an hour now you're going to be spending two days later :/

oh well

vanishes to dinnertime

Sciborg

I don't know how we got on this lol. Weren't we discussing puzzles

You can't let me get off on tangents like this guys

I blame you :p

Bubbler

Back to the CCCC: Given I made the definition half both wordier than I would normally, how many words is it normally?

Sciborg

@Bubbler oooh, good point

@NorthLæraðr Looks like Gareth took a stab at your puzzle

North Læraðr

02:15

@Sciborg He got the basic gist

user478740

02:30

Should I make an Indonesian puzzle?

North Læraðr

@Anonymus25 No, unless you are completely fluent in Indonesian and can make a comprehensive Puzzle that the vast amount of English speakers could reasonably solve

There was a Puzzler (woot woot @athins) who made an entire CC in Indonesian

bobble

you mean a cryptic crossword, not a CCCC, right?

North Læraðr

Gareth and I solved it, though saying Gareth and I is kind of like saying "Daddy and I killed the bear". Gareth solved 90% of the puzzle, and I solved a couple of stuff

@bobble Yea

20

Q: A Cryptic Crossword in Indonesian Language (TTS Kriptik Bahasa Indonesia)

The cryptic crosswords are actually new for me and I even struggled to solve one as English is not my first language. So I decided to look for a cryptic crossword in my language, Indonesian... And I found... nothing... not even a single cryptic clue in Indonesian language is available... >< So...

language cryptic-crosswords

Deusovi

yeah, I gave that a shot afterwards with a group of puzzler friends - it was pretty interesting!

user478740

I'm an Indonesian. Period.

Deusovi

02:38

2019.galacticpuzzlehunt.com/puzzle/courage-and-purity.html

this is a fun puzzle involving indonesian that is very approachable for english speakers (with google translate obviously)

made by another indonesian friend of mine

North Læraðr

@Deusovi Did they make it inspired by athins?

Deusovi

nah that one was made before athin's (though this person also happens to know athin)

North Læraðr

Ah, I see

bobble

@Anonymus25 umm.. what are you trying to say?

user478740

Am I the only Indonesian in the chat?

Deusovi

02:41

@Anonymus25 multilingual puzzles can definitely be interesting! i'd say you should do what you can to make sure they're approachable to english speakers though, because the vast majority of this site is english-speaking

North Læraðr

^

Deusovi

as far as i know, you're the only one in here at the moment, though there are some other indonesian puzzlers on the site (who don't often stop by chat)

bobble

to be fair, there's not a great number of people in the chat

Avi

@NorthLæraðr mildly dyslexic - I can empathize somewhat

I have like

typing dyslexia

where I think I'm typing something but then I type some other word ;(

North Læraðr

@Avi Very annoying. I've learned to manage it, but when I have a large chunk of text, I tend to mix letters around

@Avi I do that all the time too

Avi

02:44

It's even more annoying because I'm fairly good at grammar :(

North Læraðr

Sometimes, this spoonerism has humorous effects though. But it's mostly mixing up letters when I read something and realizing I read it wrong

bobble

Whereas I can read tiny font on a phone when in a bumpy rickshaw, parse terrible handwriting, and spot spelling & grammar errors better than my friends :)

(though all that only applies if I actually try/care)

Avi

I can be "thinking one word, thinking the word after this word" and then typing "a word that combines parts of both words but is neither of them" as well

North Læraðr

@Avi Do you also do something where you assume that it's the word when you read something and realize it's not the word on the page?

Avi

yessss

North Læraðr

02:46

@bobble I write in cursive. But my cursive is (not to brag) very good

Avi

but I think that's more a human thing in general

like, predictively assuming the word you're going to see

North Læraðr

Yeah, true

But darn, I HATE online textbooks

Avi

for me it's because I've read too much :(

bobble

What kind of stuff do you read?

Avi

just completed a 4912 chapter book :(

@bobble chinese webnovels, through google translate or other translation mechanisms

bobble

02:48

I feel like I've asked you before

Avi

probably

bobble

also, I'm having trouble making a clue pattern that looks like a crown (mostly because of the pointies). Any clues/pointers?

(all puns intended)

North Læraðr

Patterns?

bobble

for a Statue Park

North Læraðr

Oh grid puzzles. One of my worst puzzle stuff. Because I don't do grid stuff

What's a statue park?

bobble

02:50

14

A: Statue Park: Self-portrait!

My answer: First steps: A tricky deduction: Working on the right side: Another tricky deduction Working on the middle: Using up the remaining shapes:

Deusovi

@NorthLæraðr you should learn! it's fun

Bubbler

Maybe start by marking the vertices of your crown on the grid, and then filling the inside?

But it's not the correct way to design a nice puzzle

bobble

the vertices never feel sufficiently pointy

North Læraðr

@Deusovi Geez! That looks complex

Deusovi

mellowmelon.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/pack02statuepark_v2.pdf

this is a very nice introduction to Statue Park

bobble

02:52

I'm starting on #22 (have to copy it into my solving sheet first)

Deusovi

mellowmelon's puzzle packs were how i got into [grid-deduction] puzzles

bobble

my mom's logic puzzle magazines sometimes had special issues with some grid-deduction puzzles

North Læraðr

Ooh nice

bobble

I have a big box of 40 (mostly) unsolved ones - planning to cart it with me whenever I move

they give you good discounts buying old magazines bulk!

Avi

I gave you the 15th upvote :)

North Læraðr

03:02

16th :)

bobble

Ahhh, meant to post a link to the puzzle, not to my answer!

make sure to upvote the puzzle!

North Læraðr

Did too

Avi

Deusovi's answer was nice too

North Læraðr

@Avi Everyone's answers were pretty nice

bobble

poll: is this answer VLQ or NAA?

Deusovi

03:08

neither, it's deleted

North Læraðr

What

bobble

mod powers?

North Læraðr

VLQ? NAA?

Deusovi

(very low quality / not an answer)

North Læraðr

Ah

bobble

03:08

I was debating which flag to use

North Læraðr

@Deusovi Btw, thanks for all the suggestions. I have an idea now, hopefully this one will be more unique!

Deusovi

good luck! looking forward to seeing it!

bobble

was it mod powers?

Deusovi

(yes)

bobble

that's cool. and useful!

Avi

03:12

@NorthLæraðr I didn't particularly appreciate the last answer

North Læraðr

@Avi rly?

Avi

yeah

is that a good pattern @bobble

Deusovi

@Avi the last answer was mine D:

Avi

not really sure how to get a crown jewel

Deusovi

also that looks like a lot more dots than necessary

Avi

03:13

it's pixel art

North Læraðr

@Deusovi I think he might've meant by votes?

Avi

but also a slitherlink

@Deusovi talking about the least voted answer

bobble

yes, pretty pattern

Avi

I feel it would be reasonably easy to clue for good deductions

without internal patterns it would be super bland

Deusovi

hm i think bobble was talking about a pattern of given clues rather than a pattern of the solution

which generally works a lot better, because you can design the solution around the clues

(once again: fixing the solution at the start is generally not a good idea. it can work but you'll likely be making less interesting puzzles than you would otherwise)

bobble

03:16

oh wait what is this pattern for?

Avi

i'd probably go with those clues to start with

find all forcing deductions

Deusovi

avi i think bobble wanted to make a statue park, not a slitherlink

Avi

and find something interesting from there

Deusovi

also: would recommend not starting with a solution in mind

bobble

I basically want to put little xs in my grid as placeholders for Statue Park clues, and then have those clues look like a crown

Avi

03:17

@Deusovi fair, but "bobble" has many more letters than Stiv

and crown is also forcing I guess

Deusovi

you could just draw the crown with the dots though?

bobble

I'm having trouble drawing the crown and making it look crowny

also I keep getting distracted by "just one more puzzle" from the mellowmelon puzzle pack

Avi

how to do penpa circle?

as in, statue park circle

Deusovi

shape tab, shape -> circle -> medium

then put the cursor over the cell you want, and press 1 or 2

Avi

here's the shape

get the dimensions/colors as you see fit

Deusovi

03:21

a shape like that was what i was thinking too (and maybe adding some extra dots around the border too)

bobble

stealing, thank you

Avi

no problem

i'm off now, good luck with the puzzling

Deusovi

see ya!

North Læraðr

see ya!

bobble

03:41

any tips for Statue Park construction, in lieu of an answer to my over-cluing question?

Deusovi

been thinking about how to answer that but haven't come up with something that feels concretely answerworthy

bobble

I posted it assuming you would be the eventual answerer :)

Deusovi

some ways i place dots sometimes:
- set up "this one place can only be this one shape, so no other places can have this shape"
- or set up a more advanced version, "these two places can only be these two shapes (though i'm not sure which is which yet)"
- from the other perspective, "i have this many shapes that need to fit in these places, and there's only one way to fit enough shapes in" (e.g. 12 particular black dots are far enough apart that the 12 pentominoes must each take one)
- or more advanced, focus on a specific set of shapes (e.g. what i did with the Is in stiv's puzzle. notice t…

there's a ramble of some ideas in no particular order. a lot of these can be developed more but it's all about exploiting properties of your shape bank (can't have too many pieces, or too many pieces of a particular type; can't have too few pieces, or too few pieces of a particular type) and connectivity (can't seal off white areas, so diagonally touching shapes create "walls" that the unused cells have to slide between)

bobble

I think double pentominoes will work for my size

Deusovi

double pentominoes? wow

bobble

03:54

ooops double tetrominoes

I forget the prefixes :(

Deusovi

ahh ok that makes more sense

double pentominoes would be a big puzzle! (not necessarily a bad thing, i loved the hexomino puzzle in mellowmelon's pack -- it just surprised me)

user478740

Any luck with msh's MADDENING CC?

Deusovi

trust me, if there was luck, you'd know

bobble

please don't yell

Sphinx

0

Q: There are 49 cards here. Figure out what the seven facedown cards are and what position they're in

So here's the problem "There are 49 cards here. Can you figure out what the seven facedown cards are and what position they're in?" I have tried about everything in my math tool belt to try and solve this. I tried to see if each suit had a unique constant attached to it and used the four full co...

pattern cards

bobble

04:25

how to stop solving Statue Parks long enough to make my own?

Bubbler

You can't :P

bobble

help me, I'm addicted!

oAlt

04:46

hahaha

msh210

05:12

@NorthLæraðr Thanks!

jafe

05:36

wow that c4 is a really cryptic clue

msh210

Extreme C4 hint: The definition/wordplay split is "this"/"part".

Deusovi

...is there an "old saw" that ends with TRAIN, or a type of saw (tool) that has something called a TRAIN?

jafe

how is train part of the precipitate?

Deusovi

T_ + RAIN

jafe

ah

oAlt

05:38

two is's

msh210

@Deusovi I'd not be surprised to find the latter was true, but that wasn't my intention.

Deusovi

welp

msh210

(It would have to not only have a train but end with one.)

Deusovi

(yes, was going to check for that as well)

jafe

so the def is wordier than necessary... an old saw ends like this

part could clue a hidden word but hepre and eprec are not words

it can't be a double def according to the hints if i understand correctly

Bubbler

05:52

So "an old saw ends like this" indicates that the given word is a suffix of a word that means an old saw?

jafe

precipitate has a ton of meanings, it seems

part of "the" plus some word for precipitate... maybe even part of "of"

jafe

06:12

hmm, precipitate can be an adjective meaning RASH... and an old saw might end up being T_+RASH

> precipitate adj 1. acting or done with excessive or careless speed – merriam-webster

^ @msh210

msh210

@jafe Yes!

Apologia: I know "an old saw ends as this" would be a better definition. But that would ruin the surface. My apologies; please don't kill me. (That said, the wordplay half was perfectly aboveboard, as I've mentioned.)

jafe

that was a tough nut to crack

CCCC: A river running from east to west (4)

fun fact: the standard word for puzzle in finnish literally means "nut" (as in the things you can eat)

Deusovi

huh, interesting!

also, I don't have any complaints about "like" vs "as", but something else about the definition feels slightly off to me? can't quite place why

(not saying there even necessarily is anything wrong with it! maybe this is just due to me thinking about the clue for so long)

Lukas Rotter

07:24

just wow. I found a &lit solution for the C4 in german. Then I realized that in english one letter of the word is different :)

jafe

@LukasRotter do share!

Lukas Rotter

TAJO - Wordplay: OJAT<

Ojat = Oyat in english

Deusovi

neat!

Bubbler

Btw I guess you can unpin everything related to the solved C4

Deusovi

yep thanks for the reminder

Bubbler

07:34

I had to say that because the pins were taking up over half of the entire starboard

Lukas Rotter

07:50

I'm not even sure if "running from east to west" would be a valid reversal indicator in case of an english &lit, since "east to west" would suffice. Obviously the most natural thing would be Def = A river, synonym of running from (like flee), reversed. But I can't find any valid words for that

Bubbler

I actually tried running/from first (and "morf" at least sounds like an English word)

Deusovi

08:05

"running from east to west" is perfectly fine - it's okay for there to be more words than strictly necessary, as long as the clue can be parsed to use everything

Bubbler

08:17

One similar word to "river" is "flow", and reversed it's "wolf", if it means anything

Lukas Rotter

hmmm. wolf as a verb can mean "to eat greedily", but I can't find any def related to running

Bubbler

Wait, Wolf River does flow from east to west!

Lukas Rotter

ha! &lit then?

Bubbler

Looks like it

Lukas Rotter

nice

Bubbler

08:22

@jafe Is the answer WOLF?

jafe

wolf is not the intended answer

that would leave the "a" unused in the wordplay, no?

msh210

08:52

@jafe no: "a river" is the Wolf. But it would clue "flow" with "running", which is the wrong tense (or mood or aspect or something… I'm no linguist).

jafe

hmm

thinking whether i should accept wolf

a river would be one example of a flow, no? so there'd need to be an indicator

actually i'm fine with accepting and revealing the intended answer

opinions?

msh210

09:14

Sounds good to me, especially if your intended answer was also the name of a river.

jafe

that it was :)

intended was A+R+NO< &lit.

msh210

That's better :-)

jafe

you're up @Bubbler

Bubbler

09:34

I'll need some time to think about this

Sphinx

10:14

0

Q: History function

Can you tell the next element of this history function? It is meant and important that mathematics tag isn't here! I save you the time to search on OEIS, you won't find it :) PS: I did post this puzzle yesterday but I replaced it with this one with improvments :) 1950 $\rightarrow$ 0 1951 $\righ...

knowledge number-sequence history

Sciborg

11:16

Wait did someone solve it?? It was TRASH?

Lukas Rotter

yes

Sciborg

T_ + RASH?

I... how????

An old saw ends in the trash....??

Ankoganit

...yeah

Sciborg

quietly puts head in hands

I... I have to admit i'm not happy with how that definition works. But if that's the answer, that's the answer

Not going to argue. I'll get working on the next one.

Ankoganit

I agree that the definition somehow doesn't feel right

Sciborg

11:23

It doesn't sit well with me.

Ankoganit

I guess it's because it's unnecessarily specific? Like if someone clued "bird" with "A parrot dipped in mud is an example of this"

It's technically not wrong, but has unnecessary information

Sciborg

That's probably what bothers me. I mean, forgive me if "an old tool ends like this" didn't immediately give me the idea "oh yeah, you throw it in the garbage"

Ankoganit

Something something about Grice's maxims

Sciborg

I'm not super happy with it I guess. But hey, people think differently than me and that's okay, no need for me to be nitpicky. It was a good C4.

Besides it's not like I write perfect ones either :p

Ankoganit

Of course

I like the misdirection

Sciborg

11:29

Definitely, the misdirection part was fantastic. Had us wracking our brains big time.

Ankoganit

(and I've definitely done worse things to make the surface work)

Sciborg

We were brainstorming chemical elements, rain patterns, antique tools... I mean this one definitely gave me an education at least! :D

Ankoganit

Maybe the real C4 solution is the friends we make along the way

5

Sciborg

Absolutely

I'm sure Bubbler and I bonded over all the chemistry research we did for that one :p

Actually it looks like they are up next to make the C4?

Ankoganit

Bubbler, yes

Sciborg

11:37

Awesome :D

msh210

12:07

@Ankoganit yeah, sorry, it was for the surface's sake

Ankoganit

12:55

Jun 24 at 7:55, by msh210

Well, both objections can certainly be overlooked in light of the really nice surface.

:)

msh210

13:12

Jun 24 at 7:56, by Ankoganit

@msh210 appreciate the generosity :)

Bubbler

I've got something in mind, will post after I think a bit more about it

user478740

13:37

WOOHOO FINALLY SOLVED

user478740

So happy :) The answer REALLY is TRASH (pun intended)

Bubbler

13:49

CCCC: An algorithm to cut off shells of underwater stuff (9)

user478740

SEASHELLS? SEA (Underwater stuff)+SHELLS

Transcript for