TRPG General Chat

Novian

18:04

"Because of this empathic link, the master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does. "

Could someone explain this aspect of a familiars Empathic Link Ability?

DForck42

@Novian ...it does things?

Novian

...

DForck42

@Novian :-D

Novian

...

DForck42

@Novian :-(

Lord_Gareth

18:18

@Novian - Gimmie a second to look it up

@Novian You're still here, right?

Novian

indeed

Lord_Gareth

That...is interesting.

Alright, and keeping in mind that I am no Great And Powerful Master of RAW (and the psychotic wordings thereof)

Novian

k

Lord_Gareth

Sorry, disconnected

What I would say is that it means that a familiar can activate items as though it were the master, provided it can actually use said items, and that the familiar is treated as being its master in addition to itself for the purposes of, say, localized environmental effects as long as it's in reach of the bond.

So, for example, it could activate wands as though it were its master, it's treated as being its master for items that care about ownership, and it triggers, say, traps as though it were a character with its master's traits in addition to its own.

Now, a caveat: this is an interpretation made solely in light of the wording and not with any kind of balance in mind

Because holy hell does that make familiars more powerful

Zachiel

if the familiar can see a place, its master can. Thus, he could for example cast a magic missile behind a column

Lord_Gareth

18:29

Incorrect, @Zachiel

It rather firmly notes that the Empathic Bond can only send emotions

Novian

Actually. "The master cannot see through the familiar’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically."

Lord_Gareth

And in any event the familiar doesn't provide you with Line of Effect, which is needed.

Zachiel

the mage does not see the enemy

through the familiar's eyes

Novian

Thats later. When you can scry em.

Zachiel

but has the same connection with the anemy as it was its familiar

Lord_Gareth

18:31

The connection is to 'items' and 'places'

Novian

I Suppose it might be handy for short range teleports.

Lord_Gareth

And it should be noted that it goes Familiar -> Master but not the reverse

So, again, incorrect based on the wording given.

Zachiel

mmmmh

Lord_Gareth

And it still does nothing with Line of Effect

Zachiel

you're right there

not even for teleporting?

Novian

18:32

I Suppose not,

Lord_Gareth

I think

And keep in mind that we are now in wording so shaky that the San Francisco Earthquake was calmer

Novian

although I like the imprecise Dim door.

State a distance. thats it.

Lord_Gareth

That it might permit the familiar to teleport as though it was where ever its master is standing instead of where it is.

So if your familiar could DimDoor somehow it could dim door to where you are by "being" there

Novian

Although I did once Dimdoor down a 100ft hallway because I thought it was trapped.

it was. in a manner of speaking.

right where I landed.

4 bog mummies.

Lord_Gareth

Indeed.

Just keep in mind @Novian that my interpretation is based on wording that contains no defined rules terms and is thus arguable in the extreme.

Novian

18:35

indeed

Lord_Gareth

And permitting what I stated makes familiars much more powerful/useful since they can increase your action economy (by using items for you)

Novian

aguably it would be based on the rules for scrying spells.

Lord_Gareth

Though it also makes them somewhat more vulnerable since they count as being you for the purposes of, say, traps and Contingencies

Novian

d20srd.org/srd/spells/scrying.htm

I have 7 hp so my familiar has 3. I aint riskin shit on nothin at this level.

to use as improper a term as possible.

Lord_Gareth

Well, wait

Novian

18:37

EXP loss is crippling.

Lord_Gareth

Your familiar has half of your HP or HP as normal for a creature of its type, whatever is better

Novian

ok so it has 4.

well 1 HD averaged to 4

Lord_Gareth

First HD is always maxed

Always

No exceptions

Novian

not for NPC's

Lord_Gareth

Even for NPCs

Every creature's first HD is max'd

Novian

18:38

d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hawk.htm

Lord_Gareth

You'll see sometimes a creature that has a listing of 1/2 HD

Novian

that sir says 4

Lord_Gareth

Well SCREW YOU WOTC WHY DID YOU WRITE YOUR RULE AND THEN NOT FOLLOW IT AAAAARGH

Novian

Sometimes they do.

I mean con 10 and its a D8 so wtf

NO COMBAT FOR YOU BAD FAMILIAR BAD.

I may have to use the share spells effect to mage armor that thing.

Because Bulwark of Reality is too dangerous'

Lord_Gareth

Why are you not just Sharing every buff you cast?

there's never a reason not to

Novian

18:41

true true

Zachiel

see why my pgs never take familiars?

Novian

nothing worthwile for me to trade em for.

Lord_Gareth

@Novian Do you not have Abrupt Jaunt?

Novian

wha?

Lord_Gareth

That would be 'no'

PHBII, Wiz/Sorc ACF. Trades your familiar for a teleport

One of the best ACFs in the game

Novian

18:44

I am an Abjurer Specialist.

for some reason giving up evoc and illusion

Lord_Gareth

There's an ACF in PHBII for every school of magic and they all involve throwing your familiar away

Which is great because familiars are terrible

(I woulda given up Evoc and your choice of Enchantment/Necromancy myself but Illusion's not a bad choice)

Novian

Some spells in necromancy I like.

I suppose enchantment wouldnt have been a bad way to go.

Lord_Gareth

Honestly the only reason not to throw away Evocation is Contingency

Novian

nothing super duper important there.

Lord_Gareth

Though if you toss Evoc but keep Illusion you can get Contingency back with Shadow Evocation

Novian

18:46

hey sometimes wizards need damage.

Lord_Gareth

Excuse me sir, while I point you at the Conjuration school

Novian

Shad Evoc is only partially real.

Lord_Gareth

And its possession of the best blasting spells in the game

Evocation is an insult to blasters

It really is.

Novian

this is true. I like magic missle. But i guess I can do without it

Lord_Gareth

Especially since you still have Orb of Force

Novian

18:47

yup

which is really the same if not better at the end of the day.

Lord_Gareth

No lie, Magic Missile is solid

But Orb of Force has those three sweet words in its description

"Spell Resistance: No"

Novian

Especially if you can get some Dragon Mag in on it. Magic missle has a class build around firing them at insane quantities i think.

Lord_Gareth

Excuse me while I recoil from the Paizo content and hiss

Novian

SPELL RESIST NO IS MY FAVORITE pHRASE.

because then i get to say NO to my dm.

and he cant do anything besides try and smite me.

mage armor + Sheild.

HAHAHAHAHAH

not only am I immune to magic missle I have alot of AC

Lord_Gareth

Anyway, blasting is not really the best option for wizards/sorcerers, though it can be done and having some direct damage around is great.

Nothing quite like Disintegrate against low-Fort targets if you've got to lay down the law.

Novian

18:51

Na Im am abjurer we abjurate things.

Lord_Gareth

Abjuration's sorta middling as far as spell schools go, but you've got wonderful access to Transmutation and Conjuration

Zachiel

transmutation is like "half the spells out there"

Novian

the only reason i went abjurer(Which now that i think about it i may change) Is to ensure I had the spells to get into IoSV Prestige

Lord_Gareth

Oh geez, that's easy

Especially if you're a Wizard

Since you can literally buy them

Even if you somehow forget to pick some out

Novian

yeah. might respecialize.

I picked up a neat little feat that will ensure I can learn enough.

Lord_Gareth

18:53

Collegiate Wizard?

Zachiel

plus, specialization does not buy you new spells. You just cast more of that kind

Novian

realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Collegiate_Wizard

Zachiel

ninjed

Novian

indeed

Lord_Gareth

I'm a fan of it myself but it's honestly overkill of epic proportions.

Novian

18:53

oh well.

Zachiel

I don't think so. You just spend a little less money

Novian

saves me money on reserch.

Lord_Gareth

Of course, there's also No Kill Like Overkill

Zachiel

Since I assume you're writing spells in a blessed book in any case

Lord_Gareth

@Zachiel - Feats are more expensive than money, scrolls show up on random treasure tables and they're also cheap.

Novian

18:54

a Bellsed what now?

Blessed*

Zachiel

Boccob's Blessed Book

Lord_Gareth

Boccob's Blessed Book

Novian

?

Lord_Gareth

If your DM makes you record spellbook pages

First you slap him

Zachiel

costs a whopping 12500 gp

IIRC

Lord_Gareth

18:54

And then you buy one of these bad boys and never have to worry bout spellbook recording again.

Zachiel

but then you have 1000 pages and no cost for scribing spells on it

Lord_Gareth

Personally I hate trying to keep track of spellbooks and I don't make my players do so either. So freakin' annoying

Novian

I have 50gp. I am Level 1

Zachiel

Oh I know you're not getting it -now-

but get it ASAP

Lord_Gareth

An alternate method

Zachiel

18:56

all the copy-scrolls-to-be-batman thing is gauged on having that book

Lord_Gareth

Is instead of buying the Blessed Book, dip a single level of Geometer. It doesn't cost you any casting, you can get into it easily, and the first level provides Blessed Book aallll on its own

Novian

What book is Geometer in?

Lord_Gareth

ComArc

Novian

good. I like COmparc

Lord_Gareth

and you can take the level well before Initiate becomes a thing

If you're non-Good then a dip in Mindbender is also suggested so you can pick up the Mindsight feat from Lords of Madness

Novian

18:57

i think Level 9 is the earliest I could do initiate anyway.

Need 4th level abjurations and 12 ranks in 2 skills

Lord_Gareth

Yep. IIRC you can Geometer at level 5

Novian

a good 75% of my starting skill points already went into knowledges anyway.

Lord_Gareth

And you can Mindbender at the same level as long as you can Charm so mehow

Novian

its a first level spell.

Charm person.

who doesnt like Mind Control Gimps.

Zachiel

byeeee

Lord_Gareth

18:59

@Novian Well if you ban Enchantment you need some workarounds :p

Novian

welp I dont think im an abjurer anymore.

Lord_Gareth

Though you could always pick it up as an SLA by going Half-Fey (+1 LA, Fiend Folio). Buy off the LA and you're golden

Alternately, just be a generalist

Novian

true true.

where was that abrupt jaunt thingie?

Lord_Gareth

PHB II

Now, the reason I suggest Mindsight via a Mindbender dip is first because you still won't lose any casting

but second because though Mindsight costs a feat, it's literally an impervious vision mode that doesn't care about things like walls, invisibility, illusions, nothin'

If it has an INT score, you detect it within 100 feet

Novian

I got LoS. Basically

Lord_Gareth

19:02

More importantly you get LoE through anything that's not total cover

And some spells don't actually care about LoE, like Fog Cloud etc

You don't suffer miss chances from poor vision or darkness

You can't be rendered blind

etc, etc, etc

Novian

Conjurer specialist is lookin pretty good right about now.

int mod times per day immediate teleport.

lookin reeal good.

although so Is Generalist.

Lord_Gareth

Abrupt Jaunt is VERY popular

And Conjuration is the arcane school

Novian

Lessee. Conjuration Specialization nets me the use of an additional spell per day per level. and Access to abrupt jaunt.

Generalist Allows me no banned schools. and i need to get rid of my familiar some other way.

and conjuration is a great school for almost anything.

Lord_Gareth

If you spec Conjuration you could toss Evoc/Necromancy/Illusion or something along the lines. If you throw away Evoc I'd keep Illusion so you can get your Contingency back, though

Novian

Welp Goodbye Undead and death effects i suppose.

Lord_Gareth

19:13

Nah, Summon Undead is Conjuration

Not kidding either.

Novian

dndtools.eu/feats/complete-arcane--55/…

Also this.

Lord_Gareth

Works out great, but the spell Contingency is a little cheaper in terms of cost

Novian

yep

Lord_Gareth

Hence why using Shadow Evoc to mimic it is popular

Since while the Contingency is only part-real...the spell you put in it? That's completely real.

Novian

but I would have the option.

im weighting them all.

weighing*

damn.

just found another useful ability for conjurers that uses up the familiar.

Nah nevermind I dont need it.

Lord_Gareth

19:16

The Summon one?

It's kinda sexy, but not as sexy as Jaunt

Novian

Combine both the enhanced summoning line with rapid summoning and you are a summoner Baws

problem is you lose your Wizard Bonus Feats

Lord_Gareth

You don't really need them at that point

Though if you're going that route

Novian

Not really

Lord_Gareth

What you do is go Malconvoker, and you wouldn't have had them anyway

Novian

I if it was me would pick up persistant spell. as a regular feat for summoners.

Always nice to have a freind nearby.

24 hour duration spells are nice too.

24 Hour mage armor. and sheild

Lord_Gareth

19:21

More useful for buffs than permanent summons

Planar Binding is, you know, a thing

Novian

this is true.

I may pick it up on this wizard just for the 24 hour Mage Armor and Sheild buffs.

because AC from anywhere is usefull to a wizard

Especially Stacking AC that applys on touch attacks.

Lord_Gareth

Nah, AC isn't really a great investment past low levels. You wanna think more like Blur, Displacement, Blink, and Mirror Image

Things that make attack modifiers irrelevent

Plus Abrupt Jaunt can whisk you away from attacks

Novian

only Int Mod times a day.

which is 4 for me.

Lord_Gareth

How low do you think your Int Mod is going to be by the time Persist comes online?

Novian

When do we get feats? every 3 levels?

Lord_Gareth

19:25

Yep.

More importantly, Persist has a spell level increase.

Which puts its effective use beyond the earliest you can acquire it

Novian

ouch.

hmm if i wasnt trying to be nice to my Gm I could Cheese that down a bit

ah well

if I was Cheesing in I Could get it down to 3 or 4

Lord_Gareth

Like I said, AC buffs aren't generally great anyway

You want non-AC defenses

Protection from Arrows, Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Blur, Blink, Displacement, Foresight, Celerity, Abrupt Jaunt, Wind Wall....

Novian

I have up to first level spells so AC is my only way to go at the moment.

Lord_Gareth

Oh yes, certainly

but when Persist comes online there's better choices

Novian

19:43

Wondering if I should Carry Enlarge Person around...

Lord_Gareth

20:54

@Novian Enlarge Person is great to cast on melee allies

And poor to cast on yourself

In point of fact most spellcasters want to be Small, or smaller, if they can

Novian

21:57

giantitp.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-99968.html Someone explain this stupidity.

Abrupt Jaunt isnt broken in the least,

useful but never broken.

Upon Further inspection it seems someone does know the limitations.

Maurycy Zarzycki

22:32

Since it has limited use, I'd just throw a group at the PC where everyone would target with ranged attacks the mage.

If the mage has +5 INT, he can only run away 5 times

A group of 5 archers is enough to make him lose all uses of it

If you are afraid that he'll just take these arrows straight on chest, make sure they are covered in a poison which, for example, makes it difficult to cast spells

BESW

23:04

One thing that bugs me about D&D CharOp is that just about everyone involved assumes you create the character at a very high level, rather than leveling up. It's an entirely different way of approaching PC building, and barring 4e-style retraining must needs produce very different characters.

Which makes the "If you're not doing X you're doing it wrong" crowd look not just elitist but actually silly.

Even 4e CharOP seems almost exclusively concerned with epic-level optimization and pays little attention to anything else. This attitude seems very narrow-minded and of such limited usefulness that it turns CharOp into little more than thought exercises.

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