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00:22
I dislike if you arent doing x your doing it wrong. I just liked Abrupt jaunt because it covers the one aspect im terrible at. Remembering things that would save my life.
like potions.
My response to things I think might be overpowered is usually to ask the player "Are you okay with me giving this feature to your enemies?"
Then they get to decide whether or not to introduce a potentially broken element into the campaign.
Well I cant say we fight many spellcasting opponets.
If I Ever fought something with dispel magic i would be suprised.
and then kill the crap out of it.
take its loot and feel good.
hmm. I do wish spellcasters were more present. We've fought alot of monsters recently. not too many classed.
I mean I can understand.
Classy monsters are generally more work for the GM, both to build and to run, but they're also usually more fun and engaging.
I cant remember the last time I used a Counterspell.
00:43
Hrm. I'm always curious when multiple answers pop up on a question, and get votes very quickly, but the question itself remains unvoted, unedited, and uncommented.
that is an odd occurence
god if this java book were any slower it would be on dialup as a book.
Urgh.
I want to answer that "female stats" question with "It's called point buy."
Okay, I lie. There's another answer I want to give.
01:01
Depite being male I do not see myself superior to women at all. I just notice differences. Women are generally more dexterous and flexible than Men and men are stronger when it comes to endurance. these are influenced by too many factors to be absolute however.
I have some strength but no endurance when it comes to anything that involves putting the lungs under heavy stress because of asthma and my weight.
Short Feats of strength I can accomplish.
0
A: Is there an alternate rule to allow different stats for Male/Female?

BESWStat jumps are really important to the game, and can easily and accidentally introduce imbalances to the system. In light of that, I suggest one of these pre-existing mechanics: Traits (UA 86) and Flaws (UA 91) Unearthed Arcana introduced these mechanics. Traits give a small mechanical bonus wh...

I know the context.
I just posted an answer.
and no I dont belive there is a definite way to incorperate differences.
to do so would be fallacy.
And highly offensive.
01:06
heh even if I was a woman it would be damn hard to offend me. too much bullying caused me to stop caring a long time ago,,
Offensive action is independent of whether a person is offended by the action.
My eyesight is poor, My intelligence makes me awkward and what few mental problems I have are so minor I never could see why people used them as insults.
@BrianBallsun-Stanton Hey!
Needless to say I got used to it.
hello Mr. Stanton. How goes it
feel like my brain is gonna crack.
hmm is something soft even capable of what is deemed cracking?
or does it become tearing when the flexability of a substance reaches a certain point
Perhaps your brain is egglike.
01:13
mmmm scrambled eggs.
Uuuuuh. @Novian, I think your "insulted player" comment is a little off-topic.
Im sorry Ill remove it. Im not operating at 100% conciousness atm.
Probably best to keep away from the comments until you're unscrambled, then.
Somehow it feels as though I havnt slept and I have...Really well infact
If someone reccomended a coffee break Id make a terrible Java Joke.
im working on a Intro to Java type Class asignment.
I am suddenly reminded of the time I made Saurons Ring of Power as a D&D item.
too costly to put in any loot table and too powerful to incorporate.
01:30
Did it let you build massive fortresses from the top down, putting the foundation in last?
02:01
@BESW I've been summoned?
@Novian who? Don't you see the floppy hat?!
@BrianBallsun-Stanton You popped on, I said hi.
@BESW ah. harro
I am busy not being dismayed by gender stereotypes. How are you?
@BESW ::STABSTABSTAB:: Fine, thanks?
GAK! [bleeds]
Bah! Five-tag limit.
02:47
@BESW good question on the pre-gens
@BESW lol. I was expecting a different question and was unpleasantly surprised
03:02
4d6
13.
my what a strange day.
Statistically I should Roll below 10 on stat dice at least once in any given day.
I have yet to.
gee shows what kind of person I am when ive got nothing better to do than roll 4d6.
03:30
@LitheOhm Thanks!
@LitheOhm Umm. What were you expecting?
03:41
Sepia Snake Sigil Easiest way to assasinate a King or bad guy depending on your alignment.
actually my favorite save or lose.
/save or die.
I am reasonably sure that spell doesn't have any ability to kill on its own, so I'm assuming you mean to combine it with some other effect.
no but once it takes hold you go to town on the ensnared victim
hes unable to react while affected
Mmm.
Problem is the 500gp componet.
One of the problems with 3.5 is that given the massive number of commonly-available spells, effects, and items that have world-changing consequences, precautions will be taken by anyone with the means to take them.
Any king is going to have a Royal Reader, like the Royal Taste-Tester.
03:45
this is true. which is why one doesnt show all their tricks at once.
It's not a matter of whether or not someone knows what you can do.
I might just get rid of the royal reader with the Bookcase of DESTRUCTION.
It's that they know such spells exist, and precautions can be taken.
600,000 d6 force Damage and if you are Point Blank its a No save.
@BESW because of the exception-based way in which D&D magic works, it always escalates into "who can find the best spell". The moment the party is hit by its first save-or-die, everyone gets Death Ward effect.
03:48
If a PC wizard can spend his days in a popped Bag of Holding with a Bottle of Air and interact with the outside world through Astral Projection, a 3.5 king will have plenty of opportunity to figure out how to not get assassinated... or he wouldn't still be king.
Takes alot of time and money to set up but if one must do something flashy to prove their superiority one must.
Popped Bag of Holding?
@Novian Nothing says the extradimensional space in a bag of holding disappears when the bag is stabbed, just that the bag is no longer a portal to that space.
doesnt that rely on the Dm agreeing with the philosphy that a bag of holding connects to an storage dimension.
@BESW hormaphroditism. I think I read it as "different stats than male/female"
> The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space
> if sharp objects pierce it (from inside or outside), the bag ruptures and is ruined. All contents are lost forever
03:50
What type of Bag Would a human need to fit.
Note, neither the contents nor the space get destroyed
I doublt the type 1 could hold a human.
but i forget.
A type 1 BoH holds 30 cubic feet.
wow.
A quick Google finds something like 0.7 cubic meters for a human.
Which is.... about 25 cubic feet.
The 3.5 world long ago ceased to follow real-world laws of supply, demand, entropy, and human motivation.
03:54
I dont suppose a Wizard inside the bag could still cast spells that affect the material plane.
Any attempt to reason that something "must be so" about the 3.5 world through logical extrapolation based on real-world examples is only as effective as the audience's willingness to accept it.
soooo yes
Making the Wizard damn near invulnerable.
In a world where your average town has at least one resident capable of not only killing everyone in the town in less than six seconds, but also capable of summoning food and water, repairing any broken item, curing your average wound, and flawlessly detecting whether or not a person regularly has bad thoughts?
Any king who has survived more than six months on the throne is surrounded by a battery of the best wards and practical non-magical prevention measures the private magical protection firm of his choice can offer, for a fee of a not-insubstantial fraction of the nation's taxes.
(Because believe you me, magical protection services are going to be a booming economy in that world.)
I remember discussing a number of years back, what a civilization can do to survive a level 20 wizard that's decided to methodically destroy it. By living under various permanent non-detection spells, and once per day casting superior invisibility, teleporting over a given city, casting a number of earthquakes and contingent-teleporting out
and the outcome of that discussion was: not a hell of a lot
I love extrapolating the absolutely crazy experience it must be to live in that kind of world, but it's not actually much fun to play in unless you either ignore the implications entirely or want to play D&D: Paranoia Edition.
This is why Middle-Earth has fewer wizards than you can count on your hands, and awesome magical swords can... glow in the dark.
04:02
I try not to stir too much trouble as any sort of caster. it prevents the DM from taking it into his hands to destroy me.
Sting was at least a +1 Feircebane Shortsword.
if not a little higher
the foehammer was signifigantly more powerful
It's why the Wheel of Time nations cower before the Aes Sedai and recognize that their pledges of honesty are honestly useless.
I wish to ask a question completely unrelated to this discussion.
@Novian NSOMN.
It's no skin off my nose.
(I am ambivalent.)
04:05
What would you consider an appropriate boss encounter CR for a group of ECL 2's
3.5? Unanswerable as given.
ah yes
D&D 3.5 Party of 4
It depends entirely on the party's choices, builds, and equipment.
Level 2 doesnt give much of a build standpoint.
Technically, three to five levels higher should be a boss-level challenge.
@Novian Tell that to my level 1 human with two flaws and two traits.
04:07
and our equipment is basic Nonmagical PHB weapons and armor for the most part. No Traits and limited to one flaw.
Rocking four to six feats (depending on class) at level 1 in a feat-starved system is all the build room I need.
I'm honestly too far gone from the 3.5 experience to be much help on specifics.
We have a Druid. and a Wizard 2 Melee Characters whos classes I do not remember.
Multiple lower-level creatures if they have poor AoE or to-hit, one or two higher-level creatures if they have good to-hit...
Most dynamic would be a Big Guy with a lot of minions.
@Magician Yeeeah. One reason I love 4e's PoL setting is that it's explicitly a "You Are The Biggest Fish" philosophy.
Sometimes 4e makes me feel too powerful.
then it throws something like a shade hulk at me.
and makes me feel tiny and insignifigant.
If my players ever complain about easy mode, I throw something with insubstantiality at them.
04:17
Our wizard actually did more damage to insubstantial foes than to regular ones
nothing like a golem to make a party do a double take.
welp im off.
Ta!
@Magician Yeah, we never actually had a proper wizard.
So insubstantial magic missiles weren't a big deal.
@SomeGuy You're just answering up a storm today, aren't you?
04:38
anybody a lover of Shamus' DM of the Rings?
I prefer Darths & Droids. DM of the Rings is a little too gleefully malicious for my taste.
lol
never tried that one
It's basically the same concept, but with Star Wars and a lot more characterization.
They also make Jar-Jar likeable.
kickass
I'll have to check it out
@BESW haha, that's worth a look by itself
04:40
my friend said if anyone played a Gungan he'd kill them outright.
bookmarked :) thank you
Actually, they make the whole prequel trilogy make a lot more sense.
Of course, it's RPG sense....
reason I ask, this is the first thing that came to mind with the fear-invoking question... shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1168
I'm always pleased when my players do me the courtesy of having their characters be scared by scary things.
lol
I tend to shy away from fear effects for that exact reason
I... tend to use them sparingly, and institute mechanics that make the players gnash their teeth.
04:48
lol
I'm currently throwing a bunch of aberrant creatures at them, which very nasty debuffs that the players can avoid by taking "Stain."
Yeah.
Stain is a negative attribute that I have told them how they can get rid of and a few of the negative effects of it...
...but they also know that certain aberrants can take advantage of Stain in unique ways.
So by choosing to take Stain instead of being, say, blinded? They're trading a known penalty now for an unknown one later.
how does it compare to taint?
04:50
going now
It's like Taint without any of the potentially helpful mechanics.
fascinating
Here's an example of a creature that uses it: docs.google.com/file/d/0BymQQv9ecodqMHFjQjhSaFUyWTA/edit
is this a 4e mechanic of your own make?
Yes, but it's inspired by 3.5 taint, CoC, and especially the custom taint of @Magician
04:53
awesome
this is cool
Glad you like.
It's designed to be bad. I'm using it in the last month of sessions in a Far Realm campaign, leading up to the level 30 boss fights.
You get Stain for good things, and you lose it for bad things.
The only good thing about Stain is that you can use it as currency for bad things.
lol
hm.
I'm designing periodic boss fights that sap Stain by doing TERRIBLE things to you.
(I call it Stain instead of taint partly to differentiate it, but mostly to keep my players from giggling out of their chairs.)
The goal of Stain is to give the players Bad Choices They Want To Make.
It works, too.
Coming next session: Ongoing 25 damage and -5 Stain (save ends both).
....Though I'm considering making that vulnerable 15 instead of ongoing 25.
Because... I'm mean.
@BESW haha. I hear ya, I can be vicious to the players sometimes.
@LitheOhm Endgame time, gloves come off.
I am being very careful not to use mechanics that remove player agency: in fact, the best tools in my arsenal are like Stain, in that they force the players to make hard choices.
05:08
yep. All necessary preparations, then it becomes a game of strategy
cool
I avoid things like stunning whenever possible, because they aren't fun.
Being blinded limits choices and efficiency, but doesn't prevent choices.
yeah
Being able to choose blinded now or something later adds another layer of player control.
I think of it along the same lines as a 4e defender's role: making choices harder rather than denying choices.
that is interesting. It brings more chips to the table, more options
Yup!
And when that choice to postpone pain now for pain later comes back to haunt them, it was their choice, not something the GM is handing down arbitrarily.
05:13
and you get to play Lucifer :P
does their karma compound interest?
Heheh.
@BESW Captured Image is a very cool effect
@Magician Thanks!
I worked pretty hard on making it fun for the captured person.
They still get their turn, just have limited options--but their attacks are better because they can deal damage without taking damage.
It'd be brutal to capture party's healer this way
On the other hand, taking damage also means losing Stain. So the party can focus fire to let their friend out fast, at the cost of damaging their friend.... or they can ignore the nerra and let him hammer his way out from the inside.
@Magician Amusingly, it was less brutal than I'd expected.
The healer had the DS psionic power Sensing Eye already up when he got captured...
So he had line of sight out of the nerra.
It wound up letting them coordinate their battle plan, and had he been in possession of a teleport power...
05:21
it's nice when character abilities combine like that
This is where I'm working on my upcoming mechanics for the next two sessions: docs.google.com/document/d/…
You know what I'd add to that monster? Though that'd probably push it into Elites territory in terms of complexity. Twisted Image: while it has a creature captured, it may use its at-wills.
@Magician That's awesome! But I really don't want to have to track it.
@BESW Hm? I don't think it'd take effort. It'd use all of the numbers of the captured character, and perhaps that player should be the one to roll it
True.
I'm actually dropping the Captured Image power though, it's too much to combine with the Time Jump feature.
I'm doing a LOT all at once in there.
05:30
You're right, then, best to limit overall complexity
I'd keep Captured Image if I weren't also going to be stranding people with Time Jump.
The overall effect I'm going for, obviously, is a sense of reality unraveling in the face of the Far Realm.
Unreality Bubbles do for space what Time Jumps do for time.
And Stain serves as foreshadowing of this, because it's the same effect in miniature applied to the players. And now it's escalating because too much Stain can actually convert you.
[is all narrative and junk]
Is good narrative. Sounds like a cool encounter.
[grin] It's actually going to be two sessions.
I expect them to use Time Jumps to achieve effects before the consequences they're trying to affect.
Because at this point the universe is just kinda throwing up its hands and looking the other way.
And ultimately the Far Realm portal will be closed by shooting stubborn and happy thoughts at it with a Feelings Cannon.
Because what better to defeat the Far Realm than a Care Bear Stare?
05:47
Ayup. Swords and spells are matter and energy, insane gods don't care. Ideas are what can penetrate their hide.
(It's actually going to make a lot of sense, due to various past events and one particular character's constant ability to power through despite all odds and logic by shouting about how awesome he was.)
That character died a while back, and his ghost will show up to give them a pep talk.
I'm having the player (who moved off island a few months ago) write the speech for me.
I...am not going to go on a Far Realms rant and instead say that this Monk thread is hilarious.
It's gone from being about monks to being about the morality and effectiveness of blasting out an army's blood, veins, and collective nervous system and turning it into a sticky mass that ties up its still-living victims.
And just about everyone involved is perfectly okay with this.
@Lord_Gareth We're roleplayers, that's what we do.
heh.
Indeed, @Magician, indeed.
06:02
Still, I'm glad we have the chat for that kind of thing so it doesn't obfuscate the useful bits in the site proper.
@BESW If it makes you feel any better, things on the Far Realms side of each of those portals want those portals the hell closed.
Material Realm taint makes them feel all icky and ordered inside
@Lord_Gareth Yeah, that's.... not exactly how I run it.
Speaking only in terms of default canon, of course. Your Far Realms can be whatever kind of demented and wrong you like.
And it should be noted that in both cases there are really, really stupid "people" on both sides that open up portals anyway.
While playing at uni, I've discovered a law: probability of non-gamers entering the room is directly proportional to the ghastliness of subjects being discussed. Discussing technicalities of necrophiliac sex with beholders is almost guaranteed to summon someone.
To my mind, the entire D&D multiverse is a tiny speck in the Far Realm, and the Far Realm feels about it the way we feel about a very small splinter in our heel.
06:04
Hrm, a possibility. The Far Realm has only ever been defined as being 'outside'
And the Far Realm reacts in about the same way: encapsulate, disintegrate, integrate.
And what 'outside' means has not really been defined.
Part of this is because as a Lovecraftian homage the truth about the Far Realm needs to make humanoids feel insignificant and pointless.
The only thing that's really canon is that something from the Far Realms walking in is exactly as bad for them, from their perspective, as a Material creature walking out
But it's also to justify the actions of aberrants.
Integrate: Aberrants that look like twisted versions of mortal creatures are being integrated, converted to a form more comfortable for the Far Realm.
06:06
Wait, are we talking about Aberrations in general?
Disintegrate: Aberrants devoted to destruction and chaos are trying to break the mortal world down so it's no longer an irritant.
@Lord_Gareth All aberrants are from the Far Realm, or created by it.
Just trying to get a feel for your canon in this case.
Whether through originating there, being created by other aberrants, being twisted by Far Realm radiation...
I take it you threw the time travel thing for Mind Flayers out the door?
(What'd you do with Elans, or are they just not a thing?)
Encapsulate: there are also aberrants with agendas of encasing the material realm and forgetting about it.
First off, this is the canon in my head. I deliberately avoid ever making it explicit in the game and feel free to twist it and defy it, because... Far Realm.
Mind flayers as time travelers is... not something I want to get into, so I leave it in the settings where it's more appropriate, and which I don't run.
06:09
Like I said, I'm getting a feel for your canon, as I'm very aware of the default canon for these things (and why Mind Flayers make more sense than it sounds like - trust me)
@Lord_Gareth Yeah, I'm saying that even my own canon stays in my head and doesn't ever get explained fully in the world.
Indeed.
It's a background idea that helps me keep the Far Realm stuff seem coherent while still being weird and unpredictable.
You may have some interest in the canon story of the first Far Realms contact, either for adaptation or straight use. Would you like it?
Each aberrant or aberrant race has a different method and goal, based on encapsulate/integrate/disintegrate.
@Lord_Gareth You mean the Living Gate?
06:11
The Vast Gate was the one I heard.
I did a fair amount of research into it, because my 1-30 campaign designed to last two years has the Far Realm as the backbone of its plot.
Nobody ever wanted to play an Elan, so I never had to decide about them.
But I'm totally cool with the idea that psionic power is basically the world's antibodies.
I'm not really a fan of the integrate/disintegrate/encapsulate because it seems so...comprehensible.
@Lord_Gareth That's why I keep it as an unstated metaphor.
Indeed, but...well, would you mind if I waxed poetic for a moment on the default canon as I understand it?
As the GM I need something I can get a handle on, or the Far Realm will simply become "random stuff."
Go for it.
06:14
The Far Realms is located outside of reality. Concepts such as 'time' and 'space' are not only foreign to it, but inimical to its essence - their presence almost like unto a physical blow against its denizens. The Far Realms is populated by things that, in their native forms, are difficult enough to categorize that we can only truly speak of the greatest of their kind, the Herculean Minds that sometimes make contact - or are contacted - by the Material.
(Elans make total sense to me and I'm cool with them. They fit into my vision of the mortal multiverse as a body stuck inside the Far Realm, and each of them launches antibodies against the other.)
What is known is that the Far Realms contains and emanates a powerful and foreign influence that, while not Chaos, can only be called Chaotic because of its total incompatibility with the rules of reality. Far Realms influence is bad for the Great Wheel (hereafter referred to as the Material Realms) because wherever its blasphemous power goes, reality shreds in its wake, taking forms strange and horrid.
However, Material influence is equally bad for the Far Realms; the mere existence of Material concepts or, worse, objects in the Far Realms spreads a sort of order that is utterly foreign to the place, condensing its power to "mere" chaos.
Everything thus far is the foundation of my headcanon, yes.
Every now and then, there's penetration between the two realms. It's not really a great idea, and attempts on both sides to cross the barrier inevitably end hideously poorly for whomever tries it. Those Herculean Minds that have crossed have become changed, turned into Material beings that are now forever barred from their homes if not annihilated entirely.
And while no beings of similar power have crossed into the Far Realms, some few mortals that managed to cross and come back (relatively) sane have babbled about a realm where death is a foreign concept, where no matter what happens to you the pain and horror just stays and stays and stays
What about Allabar?
06:19
Name's not ringing a bell off of the top of my head.
MM3 186. A primordial-made planet given the spark of intelligence by the gods in the days before the Dawn War. They feared him, and cast him into the Far Realm.
In any event, some beings of powerful chaos, evil, or both can be traced back directly to Far Realms taint, with Aboleths being one of them - coincidentally also the oldest of all mortal races, predating even dragons.
@BESW Ah, yes. There's a rather specific reason Herculean Minds who become tainted by the Material can't cross back over - there's a known being on the Far Realms side striving to keep them out and keep the barriers sealed. IIRC he's in the Elder Evils book, but in any event his sole mission in life is to keep the Realms and the Material separate
(Smart guy)
Isn't Elder Evils 3.5?
As far as I'm aware, yes.
And all my speech is 3.5 thus far
And I'm all about 4e.
06:23
Well now I'm on a roll so lemme finish :p
Aye.
So there are a few beings that can actually be traced back to the Far Realms, some of whom would very much like to go back, but most of them simply insane, cancerous forces of destruction, their minds utterly broken by being forced into the rules of the Material Realm; the flow of time and the presence of space being akin to a constant sensation of free-fall in a tiny cage
And it's notable that while all mortal races spawned deliberately or accidentally by Far Realms taint are aberrations (Aboleths, Kaorti), not all Aberrations were spawned by the Far Realms. Many Aberrations are magical mutations (Atach, Elans), while others are just hideous monsters that evolved 'naturally' in areas of magical taint or radiation (beholders).
@Lord_Gareth That would be a major difference; in 4e "aberrant" as a creature type means "Here Be Far Realm Influence."
Mind Flayers - the Illithids - being significant for having none of these explanations.
Well lazy-ass WotC why'd they do that?
@Lord_Gareth ...because they standardize creature types with origins to actually make sense?
06:28
Tell me, is Dragon still a separate type from Magical Beast?
Because if it is, I'ma have to call BS on that explanation.
In 3.5 "aberrant" means "weird."
Yes, but you won't.
Well, more specifically Aberration means "mutant" for the most part. If it couldn't have happened without magic, it's an Aberration
A Magical Beast in 3.5 has natural magic
Aberrations are the misshapen spawn of magic
"Magical Beast" and "Dragon" are now both subtypes on the same level of the type tree. A dragon also has the magical beast keyword.
Wait, no, sorry.
Magical Beast is a general type, and dragon is a subtype.
> White Dragon Wyrmling
> Medium natural magical beast (dragon)
Well that's a bit less aggressively dumb.
Anyway, mind flayers, they are hilarious.
Have to say it.
Agreed. I generally leave them alone because they've got so much baggage.
06:31
Well, see, here's the thing, and I'm not sure if this remained canon in 4e since they sliced so much else up and moved it places.
(4e was the first edition with fluff that was not compatible with previous editions, creates huge headaches)
I am familiar with the illithid reproduction process and various origin stories.
No, there is no 'various'. There is one.
And it is funny and ironic as hell.
See, waaaaay off in a future that no longer exists (more on that later), Illithids ruled a vast interstellar empire on a Prime Material Plane, but they were faced down with a disaster that they struggled to avert (most commonly considered to be heat death). When they finally figured out how to stop it, it was too late - but not too late to try a desperation gamble.
They sacrificed thousands of their Elder Brains in an unprecedented psionic ritual and created a psychic storm of a magnitude that may never exist again, then harnessed it to go backwards in time. Disaster struck en route - their slaves, the Gith, took advantage of their weakness and struck with powerful magics and psionics
Are you really going to sit there and tell me that The Astromundi Cluster, The Illithiad, and Lords of Madness have compatible illithid origin stories?
The resulting battle annihilated causality and fractured the time stream, sending the Mind Flayers and their slaves into multiple time lines on multiple Material Planes and into some Outer Planes.
And with millions of Mind Flayers suddenly everywhere, there is a giant hush over the multiverse as the Blood War pauses completely - all weapons withdrawn, all armies pulled back into their home planes - and the fiends strike at these newcomers with terrifying force, determined to keep them from becoming a threat on the multiversal scale.
The end result was the retreat of the Illithids into the Underdark, and the total loss of their knowledge of what catastrophe they were even supposed to prevent.
And no, what I'm telling you is that research and consultation has given this as the essential canon story of mind flayers as consistent with the most sources at once.
Including material found in 2e about Chronomancy, the Temporal Prime, and the nature of time in D&D
(The Mind Flayers breaking Time in half really ticked it off)
I have no problem with that origin story, and I think it's kinda cool even if it turns illithids into massive Mary Sues.
06:38
Well, there is several problems with them right now, chief among them the fact that their species is ever-so-slowly circling the drain.
But it's by no means the only pre-4e origin story, which you did claim above.
And the fact that even in the future they were evil, in the present they're evil, and they evolved from power-obsessed evil humanoids
At best it's an attempt to reconcile multiple conflicting origin stories in the same fashion that Baker Street Irregulars try to make Holmesian canon make sense.
(The second problem is that they know something horrible is coming, but none of them can be sure what it is, if it's coming to that world, if they can even fix it, and even if they'll have the power to do so since the idea of working with 'lesser' races is anathema to them.)
But my problem with all the time travel versions is that they tend to make mind flayers the single race around which the entire setting turns, and that's far too much narrative power to put in the hands of any one group.
06:41
Bah, I don't think this makes them important to the entire setting. At best they're a temporal parasite fit to be put down.
Another race could have developed the sorcery to combat the nameless catastrophe. It just happens that in that (aborted) timeline they did.
And that makes them narratively at the center.
Nah, as far as I'm concerned it makes them the victims of their own hubris and evil, reduced in status to a deluded cancer slowly choking on its own bile.
And it's significant to note that since they sort of broke time
There's not certainty that a disaster like theirs will ever manifest
D&D is a game, not a story; the STORY comes from the players. The illithid saga sidelines the main characters by providing a story rather than a setting: a story in which the main characters are ultimately futile.
It's akin to Bard at the end of The Hobbit.
Nah, I'd say that the Illithid saga is more of an explanation than anything. It's a setting piece, like the Lady of Pain, whose purpose is to explain the presence of something powerfully alien. Unlike Her Serenity, however, you can get together and nail all the Illithids to a wall
And the universe will be better off for it.
Mmmm. I have problems with the Lady of Pain too, in the Bigger Fish sense.
06:47
Eh, Her Serenity is a prop. You literally have to go out of your way to make her angry and even then she's more likely to throw you out of Sigil than to bother Mazing you unless you, you know, ignore all the advice ever and try to worship her.
That's not what I mean. In a world where there's an entire CITY of epic people, led by something akin to a god, the adventures of the heroes not only become dribbles by comparison... there's always someone else who could have done it, and probably done it better.
Well, see, Sigil's not quite what you're saying on the tin.
Your argument that the illithids are less narratively central because "Another race could have developed the sorcery to combat the nameless catastrophe" applies just as easily to the players and their achievements.
(And the Lady of Pain leading the city is...debatable. She rules, yes, but she doesn't really....*lead*)
Yes, I probably chose a couple words poorly. Does that invalidate my point?
06:50
The illithids are less narratively central because they failed. They failed, they don't get a second chance, they're going extinct and they're too arrogant to do anything about any of it.
Their destiny is to die, either choking out on their own pride or nailed to the Underdark by their horde of enemies
[shrug] Fair enough.
In any event, Sigil is full of beings much more powerful than your average Material denizen, but you need to keep in mind that Sigil isn't actually popular for beings of truly heinous power.
Firstly because it's as really bad hiding spot
They're either sad and pathetic or inconceivably important. Neither of those is going to be very useful to me when I'm building stories for my characters, because neither of them is very compelling to go up against.
But secondly because Sigil is a city defined by its factional struggles, and the more powerful you get the more those factions try to recruit you. Fail to pick a side and see the rumor mill pick one for you - and then have to combat the assassins sent to ensure you're not a threat.
So your 'average' Sigilite that isn't a native Humanoid (who hover around CR 5 or so on the low end of the scale) is about CR 11 or so
The exception are powerful Factional leaders (who rarely leave their safe houses) and the Golden Lords of Sigil, who may or may not actually be powerful in their own right but have enough wealth that the point is sort of moot
I think you may not be comparing that to the world at large.
06:55
Both represent additional props because actually going out and doing something would either involve A. exposure to harm or B. money they don't want to spend because they have a disturbing and psuedo-sexual relationship with their freakish treasure hordes
See, though, on Planescape "the world at large" is a place where CR 11 is a mid-ranker on the Planar totem pole and is fairly common.
Vs. the Prime Material Plane, yeah, Sigilites seem powerful.
But by the time the PCs go there from the Prime Material, assuming it's under their own power, they're powerful enough to be big fish
Yeeeah, this is where simulation and balance clash and common sense is left stunned on the floor.
The average guy on the street in Sigil could mop the floor, by himself, with the majority of the challenges a party has encountered before they meet him.
I'd argue otherwise. The Planescape setting was written specifically to counter the idea that one must be high level to adventure in the Planes and still have awesome times about it.
I had quite a fun time being a low level character in Sigil, working for a minor law enforcement agency to clear raider-gangs away from portals
And then advancing to travel the Planes
Ah, so now we're talking about a very specific setting? I didn't notice the shift.
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