lol!

That is pretty classy.

@JonathanHobbs The Delhi one has won numerous awards in architecture and art. The Chicago temple is one of the first buildings in America ever to use pre-fabricated concrete.

I don't know if it was a Lucky Number Slevin reference, or a reference to the original Shmoo, but either way.

At rate, instead we had a lovely discussion about the viability of degrees of adherence to RAW in RPGs.

SevenSidedDice said something on that topic in meta that was fairly enlightening.

I am not surprised, either; The Delhi one is beautiful.

I already said that actually but I am sleepy so that is my excuse.

@JonathanHobbs it's worth saying twice. Millions of people visit it each year. Most aren't Baha'is.

(All of our temples are open to the public as a matter of course, though it's easier to just wander into the Chicago temple and sit down due to not being full of people all the time.)

@JonathanHobbs If you can find a link...

In response to a question where a user was unhappy with the sheer amount of situations in which nobody cites RAW here.

Ahah. I think the Oracle dropped that in while I was busy with something else.

@JonathanHobbs This does dismay me when I try to make it clear I want RAW if at all possible.

I think you actually commented on one of my questions like that.

You can go ahead and ask for RAW!

Just that sometimes there isn't RAW.

It was the "Blind PC" question.

The user in question was sort of expecting everything to cite RAW in anticipation of anyone ever needing to look it up, which is an unreasonable expectation.

@JonathanHobbs That... yeah.

And yes, there wasn't RAW for my question. I was asking for suggestions and speculation for house rulings inspired by RAW, and the majority of the answers were "eh, just RP it."

It's mainly because of his situation: he plays with "people who redefine 'rules lawyer,' and who make me look downright agreeable." So naturally, he needs some RAW to refer to, and so this site is full of answers that aren't quite good enough for his purposes. They just tell him there probably is so-and-so rule, but doesn't give him anything he can show to his group.

The answers that discussed why it should be RP'd and speculated on consequences of trying to houserule it or use the punitive blind rules in place, those got my appreciation.

Yeah, those are good answers.

@JonathanHobbs Aw. I've been in that group.

I also was that guy, in a group where they ignored adding racial HD to ECL and other fun issues, but I was willing to say "okay" if they said "we know and don't care."

Well there's a big difference between being a rules lawyer, and pointing out the rules.

Or wanting people to follow the rules.

Heh.

It was a min/maxing hack-and-slash group with house rules out to here and a loose understanding of RAW.

I was invited to help them learn to role-play, as I had a reputation for making it easy in my games.

@JonathanHobbs Yeah.... if you've got a specified game like D&D or WRFP 3E, then it's very annoying for people to say "let's just ignore that rule" because that tends to break things you don't expect. Consistency and low consequences is the important thing there.

@BESW That sounds like it would invite a lot of trouble.

@JonathanHobbs I made a 67-year-old human wiz/clr/mystic theurge with a speed of 2.5', and the HP of a guy half his level.

Then as the party healer/magebomb I made friends with the barbarian, and wielded the Power of Diplomacy to lay encounters low.

@somori I can understand that. Ignoring ECLs and stuff would leave you to wondering why your <hugely powerful monster race> character is wiping the floor with the bossmonsters that are sending the other PCs to the emergency ward.

> possibly misusing prior-edition terminology

oh, we can't use >'s that way here, ha.

"Hail, friend elves! I am Alexander Theon, Librarian of the Order of Hypatia. I apologize for intruding on your forest, but would you happen to have any books I could copy for my archive?"

@JonathanHobbs I think they just never read the bit in the manual about how to calculate ECL in 3.5, and thought that the ECL: +4 on a hound archon meant ECL 4.

Haha that is great!

So instead of fighting elves, we had dinner with them. The barbarian RP'd his way right into accidentally breaking the back of an old elf in the street, and spent most of the session getting him to a healer and paying for the spells. The player said it was one of the most fun sessions he'd ever had.

You clever guy. I'm putting my players in a campaign where they'll be right near an elven forest, and may have reason to go into it at some point, and will definitely meet elves - all of whom don't really enjoy having a civilisation next door and see them like guests who've overstayed their welcome.

So I'm going to brace for that, now, in case one of my players becomes very clever.

@JonathanHobbs I learned never to expect anything from my players.

I learned that lesson rather quickly too

And that sounds like a blast

Instead I build NPCs with plans and goals, and contingency plans, and watch my players waltz into carefully balanced power plays with all the dignity and grace of an octogonal bowling ball.

LOL.

That is what I need to do. This is my first time making a campaign, and I plan to base my first couple of adventures on sections of dungeon crawls from existing adventures.

I take great joy in watching my players send powerful NPCs into blubbering conniption fits because of all the things that were expected to happen, "I tell the rebel bard everything over a cup of tea" was not prepared for.

@JonathanHobbs That's what I've been doing for nearly my whole campaign. Re-skinning modules and taking the stupid out.

Either that or just run a couple of premades in the beginning - but my players want some consistency and to not have to restart again, and that might be best served with an overarching plot.

(First 4e campaign, wanted something to back me up as I start out.)

First time I haven't built it myself from the ground up though.

@JonathanHobbs You can always make your previous events fit the upcoming plot.

Yes, that is what I plan to do, but I also need to know more about what the upcoming plot is before I can send my players into those events!

The level 1 villain was being manipulated by the level 10 villain! The brother of the orc you killed at level 4 is angry and wants vengeance!

I suppose so!

I do have a campaign in mind though, and a friend I spoke to blew my mind with ideas about how to do it.

At level 11 we had a dryad cleric get kidnapped by an evil bloodmage. She died a level later, after being rescued.

@JonathanHobbs You really ought to use better fuses.

I have some good fuses. They were blown too.

At level 23, I'm going to have them desecrate her body to use sympathetic magic to resonate with the blood in the mage's lab so they can travel there without knowing where it is.

I wanted the players to care about a particular thing, in order to make a particular quest to protect that thing actually matter to the players and not just the characters - then my friend went and talked about how I could do that, and that ended up being turned into a major section that would cover a few adventures and levels in its own right!

@somori Clearly he follows Star Fleet regulations. Control panels double as fireworks lockers.

@JonathanHobbs Sweeeet.

@BESW Haha :)

@JonathanHobbs Best way I've found to make the players care about something is to let them choose it.

Beginning of a long campaign I dangle several plot hooks and NPCs, locations, organizations, etc. Whatever they bite, I go with. What they ignore, probably never comes up again.

They think it's all planned because they don't notice what they didn't bite.

Hm, that's true.

You can use this to make it a gambler's choice by having all the hooks eventually lead to your goal 'care about this' thing.

(I learned a lot trying to shoehorn complex plots into campaigns where railroading the party was like trying to herd cats, or nailing Jell-O to a tree.)

I don't like obvious railroading, but that just means you have to be sneaky.

@BESW Sounds like the baby steps model of persuasion. Start with what they care about and lead them to where you want them through tiny changes.

...I think I talk too much. I'm averaging every third quote on the sidebar.

No we are just talking less

You are not talking too much

@BESW That just means you're quotable :P

.....now that was just mean.

Oh I see what you mean

I mean, I'm flattered and all.

But I already derail the chat regularly. I don't need to be taking sidebar space from people with important things to say, like the FATE kickstarter.

You are overrating the sidebar or underrating what you say.

You are there, ipso facto, you deserve to be there as much as anything else there.

I keep expecting a mod to pull me aside and say "You really need to calm down."

"Stop contributing so much to our community"

@JonathanHobbs Thank you.

@JonathanHobbs I don't see that happening any time soon :P

Me neither. ;o As you were!

Thanks.

I think my group appointed me DM because I talk so funny, soo....

Anyway... I should wander over to the shops while they're open. See you guys in a while :)

@somori Ta!

Where were we?

@BESW Just fyi this is fascinating and I am going to make use of this.

Oh, right. You're working on getting your players to stand on the emotional X on the floor so you can drop an anvil on them.

Yes

That is remarkably accurate

I approve.

Best anvil I ever dropped...

NPCs: people who will lead them through adventure X or Y, and lead them to town A or B. Locations: town A or B. Organisations: will send them through adventure X or Y, possibly with prior Person, from whom they may learn about an organisation, and then on to town A or B.

The party's first mission was escorting a higher-level wizard to beg a squirrel god to lift a 'blessing' that everything he touched turned to nuts (lost his spellbooks, needed guards for the journey).

Wizard became their mentor/plot provider/spell source for about fifteen levels before they accidentally released and PO'd a pit lord.

OH MY GOD

that is hilarious

They went back home to find him [warning for graphic content] crucified on the ceiling and gutted with his entrails hanging down in interesting configurations that amounted to an eldritch screw you.

Oh dear. :(

That is sad

@JonathanHobbs I actually love escort missions, especially for low-level parties. I get to craft interesting and durable NPCs who generally follow the PCs orders, and then throw hell at them.

That is quite the anvil

It got them up off their fifteen-levels-of-wandering-aimlessly butts.

Did this

did this really affect them

Were they like, pissed off about this?

Like: We are going to hunt down this MFer and make him pay.

Didn't hurt that the wizard was based on one of my own favorite PCs from a previous game.

Italics for serious intense voice.

@JonathanHobbs YES.

Teeth-grinding and all.

Okay fuck wow yes.

When they finally tracked him down, they waded through an army of zombie lizardmen led by three hags (who had also done everything in their power to mess with the party) to take him out.

(If three hags start a forced march through a desert with an army of lizardmen, they come out the other side with an army of zombie lizardmen.)

They never expected me to kill my own favorite PC, much less so gruesomely.

That is impressive and is telling me volumes not only about your players but about your ability as a GM. I commend you.

You must have had some great storytelling going on.

That it also locked them out of fifteen levels of easy spells and magic items, a free knowledge check source, and highly amusing RP...

They told me what they liked, by going back to him again and again. When I wanted to light a fire under them, they'd told me what to do.

I lifted the stapled-to-the-ceiling thing straight out of the novel Dragons of the Cuyahoga.

Also, I'd been running games with them for three years. We'd learned to RP together.

Not something I have read, but I am early on in reading Hyperion, and that has a couple of its own mildly gruesome things so far.

So if I did something that seemed cruel or unfair, it was because I thought it would pay off down the road in ways the players would appreciate, and they trusted me enough to go along and see what was going to happen.

DotC has a strong influence on my descriptions of magic and magical physics, as well as the psychology of dragons.

That was the same game where two players decided to play brothers, whose Admiral father had been killed in single combat by an enemy paladin on whom they had sworn vengeance.

Around level 6 they met a humble monk of a politically neutral order who saved their lives twice before revealing that he was that paladin. He had learned the empire he fought for was corrupt, and abandoned his paladinhood, becoming a monk to repent.

He had a complicated backstory about being the bastard son of the empire's king, growing up worshipping the propeganda version of the king from afar and became a paladin because of it--so when he found out the king was corrupt, it broke his faith.

Wooow.

The brothers forgave him, and together they fought to close a demonic portal, but failed.

The cleric brother tried to comfort the ex-paladin, but was unable to inspire any real faith in him: having failed to close a portal to hell, he abandoned his last hopes of ever becoming a paladin again.

Dang. :C Was it actually a possibility they would've succeeded?

@JonathanHobbs Yes.

Unknown to the party, the king's bastard son, now entirely forlorn, schemed to overthrow the neutral order he had joined, and at the last minute arranged for the party to support him in killing the leader (a two-headed intelligent ice-breathing polar bear; the Order of the Hand is another story).

Then props to you. You are making me think hard about how I can play out my NPCs - I have wanted to develop them well but you are making me think beyond what I could've done.

The party refused to help him kill the rightful leader of the Order, and so the illegitimate heir, ex-paladin, and faithspurned monk turned on them as they fought alongside the leader. The leader, sadly, died in battle.

As they fought, one of the brothers cried "Why are you doing this? You were a paladin! You're a monk! You're our friend!"

And the bitter man replied, "Maybe. But you should never have forgotten: I've always been a bastard."

To which the brother responded with a mace to the chest that caved in his ribs and killed him, bringing him, perhaps, to peace.

[One of the other players, in the conclusion of his own journey, eventually became the head of the order.]

[There was also some rigamarole about what the guy called himself; as a paladin he took the title The Bastard as a sign of pride about his father. As a monk he went by his first name only, and when he turned to scheming he re-took his Bastard title, saying "I shouldn't try to hide who I am anymore."]

This would not have worked in many of my campaigns. It worked here because my players had come up with equally deep and moving backstories and were interested in advancing their character arcs through play.

Three of the five PCs had direct links to this one NPC, so it made sense to load story onto him--from a DM's PoV, it was very efficient.

I can't even remember his name now. Given the time I was running it, probably something biblical with appropriate implications.

That campaign used the Bible and The Wizard of Oz and Zorro as its derivations.

@JonathanHobbs NPCs are people too. D&D 3.5 helps a lot in that by encouraging the DM to run through the PC creation process with NPCs. I'm having a harder time making fully fleshed NPCs in 4e because the process is so un-PC-like.

It is; it is very heroic.

Do you think it is viable to make a character in 3.5e and then find their 4e equivalent...?

@JonathanHobbs Not easily, for sure.

As someone who has never played 3.5e in any depth though I don't know what I'm missing :( I don't see how you could generate an NPC in 3.5e that you can't do in 4e

Unless you want to make use of all the skills which in 4e were removed or collapsed into other, larger, skills

In 3.5 creating a humanoid NPC is basically exactly the same process as creating a PC. You go through their feats and items and stats, choose their spells and allot skill points.

Okay. :O

Oh I guess that means you get to, say, create a cleric and cherry-pick a few spells, or a blacksmith who has a level in sorcery

In 4e NPC damage and hp and defenses are set by level, items are irrelephant, feats are gone, and powers are minimal at best.

@JonathanHobbs In 3.5 you'd be expected to choose all of his spells as if he were a PC, or he'd be underpowered.

There's a lot less choosing that goes into 4e NPCs, and thereby a lot less opportunity to speculate on the choices the man makes, what brought him to those decisions...

It's easier to autopilot the mechanics and neglect the person.

I guess that's true :(

(I love 4e for many reasons, but I have noticed a decline in my NPC quality. Part of it may be that my group has changed though.)

My friends picked 4e because all the powers ensure they always have something interesting to do in a fight and never have to resort to autoattack - little do they realise they do eventually resort to autoattack, with maybe another backup at-will, only their autoattack isn't Basic Melee.

But this is because in a 3.5e dive, they happened to not understand that the way to gain the ability to do extra things in combat is via feats

and one of them didn't like it, and we're in 4e, and they just want to do an adventure since we've started and stopped a few times, and they don't want to learn another system. So dang! I'm stuck with 4e. I like a lot about it, but there are things I know are missing.

I strongly suggest you try a DDI subscription.

Without it, we would not be in 4e.

Alright. O: What for in particular?

My players love having all the crunchy bits in a fully searchable database (I do too).

I am planning to in a month's time, when I start work (I am a graduate)

Ah okay

Crunchy bits i.e. what?

The character builder has access to all the database's info and does the math for you, and provides printout character sheets with cut-out-able cards if that's your poison.

Or to use some language: What is a crunchy bit?

@JonathanHobbs All the mechanical rules. RAW.

(and what makes it crunchy? It's a term I'm not familiar with)

Oh okay!

Crunchy is vs fluff, IE flavor.

Ah ok.

Character sheets with cards would be incredibly handy.

Saves my players passing the book around.

"A warlock promises to serve a being in exchange for power..." is fluff. "A warlock can choose the Diabolic Pact which provides these benefits in combat..." is crunch.

And they can keep in mind right in front of them what powers they have.

There are also third-party PDFs available for making your own cards.

But the builder cards even have the character's personal level-appropriate math already done on them.

As a DM I like being able to go online and look at the PCs so carefully without trying to read my players' handwriting.

And the Adventure Tool is a monster-maker, like a DM's Character Builder, that lets you build a monster from the ground up or based on any monster that has ever been featured in any official publication.

(Published monsters are crunch, and thus are also in the searchable database for viewing.)

You also get full access (searchable by article title) to all the 4e Dungeon and Dragon magazines, downloadable in pdf format by magazine or by individual article.

Wow thatis handy. O_O

Oh ha I get it.

I didn't see why they were called the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. But then you put it like that. ;)

Yeah... it's 1970s RPG humour.

That matches remarkably well with the age of the people who might be running it.

It is handy. And you can probably get your players to pitch in on the DDI subscription cost once they've made a PC and used the printouts.

(We use a single subscription for our entire group; some people apparently prefer to have their own individual account.)

A DDI subscription also means you can use all the classes/races/items/etc that have ever been published without needing the actual publication.

You miss out on the fluff, as that's not really replicated in the database, but everything you need mechanically is there.

I love having a searchable database of terrain hazards and traps.

That is handy. :I

I have seen a lot of interesting terrain hazards so I'd appreciate that, certainly

Browsing through all the stuff, I also feel more comfortable making up my own.

I have also heard that on the DDI database, all the MM1+2 monsters (or most of them) are updated to be compliant with how MM3 does things!

Oh, and if you use something like inCombat, all the PC and monster builds can be downloaded as files inCombat and some other systems can read.

@JonathanHobbs Kiiiinda.

The Adventure Tool has defaults based on level and type (soldier/artillery/etc), but the early monsters were entered into the database before the MM3 changes.

So there's some programming weirdness and sometimes you have to poke the settings to remind it to update.

But you can always customize it.

Oh, and the Adventure Tool really likes messing with its dice + damage equations.

Messing!?

Is it indecisive?

I say "average 30 damage, please" and the AT says "Okay, 1d6+27" instead of 4d6+16 or something reasonable like that.

But I can go in and force it to be 4d6+16, so it's just a little hassle.

I guess both are technically correct! ;o

I know which my players prefer.

the first obviously durr

Yes! The 3.5 DMG tells us that randomization always favors the NPC.

I think it'd be pretty satisfying, as a player, to have the Huge Punch To The Face's damage be determined by multiple dice rather than just one, too.

(Because in 3.5 the NPC is built to be an even match for a PC of the same level, while in 4e it takes 4 or 5 of them to match a PC.)

@JonathanHobbs There's always the chance I could roll low!

I'm actually considering using set average damage (like minion damage, but higher) to speed up combat.

It's an experiment!

What, like... always having a monster deal 30/

?*

Yeah. Probably have high crit damage alongside it.

I rolled 28 damage four times in a row last session anyway.

Well, having some randomness makes things fun, so...

@JonathanHobbs Yeah, I'm on the fence about this change, but we're trying to cram a year's worth of campaign into before the middle of March.

There is a reason why in so many video games, you deal 28-33 damage, instead of just dealing 31 all the time.

Mm, I guess so

I've already cut entire swathes of my plot out.

You could also use a dice roller such as DiceBag for android, which lets you prepare dice rolls in advance. But that might not be worth the trouble.

Yeah, I don't have a smart phone or tablet and I've already got inCombat, Adobe Reader, iTunes, and a browser with the Compendium for rules reference to juggle on my laptop.

Also the party likes to see dice.

We don't think anyone's cheating, but we like to stare at the 1s and 20s.

Oh. @BESW, tell you what. Regarding your woes around NPC creation in 4e: I already plan to give many of my NPCs spells the players will not find in the books and which they may never be able to learn. I plan on using a few spells that exist in 3.5e, but not in 4e. You could always create your NPCs as 3.5e NPCs and use them as such - but I guess there are some incompatibilities that would make that troublesome, or at least get a lot of work involved

But you might, after a few tries, work out a quick conversion process for various effects.

Hm...

I was a gifted min/maxer in 3.5, largely because of my experience in making NPCs.

This is a suggestion by someone who has very little experience with 3.5e, mind you. You'd need to be the judge in how that'd work out, since I have no idea!

@JonathanHobbs It's so weird talking to someone who plays 4e but isn't familiar with 3.5!

You are a rare and beautiful snowflake on a hot summer's day.

...yeah, it's tempting, but there's no way I'm going to ask my brain to hold 3.5 and 4e actively at once.

Alright fair enough ;o

I am not going to be this way for long! A friend of mine is starting a Pathfinder campaign in the new year, and I'll be playing.

How long have you been in 4e?

@JonathanHobbs I have no experience with Pathfinder. I'm told it's 3.5 with less quality control (how?), but thinks it's better.

My college group moved from 3.5 to Pathfinder shortly after I returned to Guam, and they like it. Like 3.5, it's got lots of fiddly bits.

My group here moved from 3.5 to 4e to get away from fiddly bits. This, in a nutshell, is the difference between the groups.

My entire hands-on D&D experience: a 3.5e game in University, a 2e stint and an AD&D stint earlier this year (I couldn't keep up attendance in either), a couple of 4e one-shot dungeon dives with my friends, and DMing for two sessions which went sort of disastrously and were a learning experience for me as a DM in keeping things interesting.

"3.5 with less quality control" would certainly be a bit... biased

For me it's 3.5e with more Fun.

(well, fun actually, I shouldn't capitalise that)

@JonathanHobbs 3.5's core books contained a polymorph spell that gave you all the "special attacks" of the creature you turned into, and a creature with "vorpal sword" listed in the "special attacks" line.

after all Fun, capitalised has its own meaning.

@JonathanHobbs I didn't decline your first flag but I looked at it and was torn and left it, anothe rmod most have come through and disagreed more. Upon review I think that his justification for why that might be an answer is valid. So we definitely appreciate the flag but think it's OK.

@JonathanHobbs From what I've heard, it's still pretty iffy.

@JonathanHobbs Half my party plays that.

@mxyzplk Hi, @mxyzplk ! Thanks for popping in to clarify that.

@BESW Sure. He does say "no it doesn't," it's just that most of his word count is then "but do note there's a similar kind of restriction"

@mxyzplk We chatted about it here and basically concluded that it could've made a great comment, and we look forward to his accumulating enough rep to make that kind of contribution to the site.

I have nothing against 3.5 or Pathfinder (I had a lot of fun in 3.5), but you gotta take the RAW as 'hopefully useful.'

And it sadly postures itself as having definitive RAW.

@JonathanHobbs You have experience in more systems than I do, in much less time!

Also, disastrous first sessions are the nature of DMing. I had a PC die of a healing potion overdose in my second session.

(my first session featured somewhat overenthusiastic RP of a PC engaging a Woman of Leisure, with the DM of course enacting the role of the Woman of Leisure.)

(I think I can say interesting is rarely a problem in my campaigns, at least.)

[face/palm]

@mxyzplk Thanks for the response :)

I think so too, I was talking to BESW afterwards and I guess it is an answer.

I was not irked by being declined so much as I was irked by the reason for being declined.

Oh and BESW said that dang.

@JonathanHobbs Better from the horse's mouth, I shouldn't've butted in.

Actually what you said was true too.

@JonathanHobbs Irked is a great word. It is exactly what I was when somebody answered my "blind PC" question with "people turn into bears in 4e, so just tell him to RP it."

So I have great empathy for your response to "But that's not what was asked!"

It's a good thing I'm not a mod or I'd be constantly restraining myself from going on a "Read the @^%$ question before you answer it!" spree.

the userbase elects BESW for a mod

the answer count halves overnight

question count is reduced by a tenth

users are culled

riots ensue, there is chaos and anarchy

A lone mod stands triumphant on a bloody pile of downvotes and flags, proudly leaning on the tattered banner of quality.

Vote 1 for BESW today!

@BESW But can the political system afford your crusade?

@somori Let them eat cake!

What the political system cannot afford is low quality answers! Vote for BESW for dictator today!

@BESW Sold!

Oh, man. I'm gonna get in trouble for that.

Horrible trouble

The brony-baiters will smell blood!

Saccharine, candy-colored blood.

Hahaha

Okay I have now starred three of your recent posts which is infinity*however many I starred before today

I think I should now go to bed

Oh, well. In for a penny, in for a pound.

YES DICTATOR.

@JonathanHobbs And myself. I think we're in the same time zone.

BRINGER OF TRUTH, DOWNVOTES AND RESPONSIVE ANSWERS

Goodnight! Hope to see you around.

We are

Same to you. Goodnight. :D

Awesome, the FATE Kickstarter has started to post the draft adventures :) First up Wild West Superheroes!

....Sometimes D&D Confuses me.

it has alot of crap spells Ill never use at high levels...and then I find a low as hell level spell I wish I had access to.

But Im no cleric.

@Novian It's the crack they give the quality control team :P

you know the spell Sheild Other?

Vaguely.

That is a great second level divine spell

d20srd.org/srd/spells/shieldOther.htm

I don't remember it being all that great...

better than most second level divine spells. even some 3rd dont do that much.

REally? The bonuses are likely to be overwritten by equipment, and pulling damage onto the healer is probably not the wisest plan.

Share Pain, Forced from the Telepath list on the other hand.... now that's a fun power.

currently I have none of those benefits. exeot maybe the saves.

I bought I cheap cloak of resistance at the beginning.

+1 to all saves is cheap.

yeah, so the +1 resistance bonus to saves is irrelevant to you instantly.

Rings of protection are dirt cheap too, so there's the AC bonus made pointless.

I couldnt buy one till after last session I was dirt broke.

Now Im filthy rich

So yeah. Looking at Shield Other, I can never imagine taking it with any character.

that should teach a DM to put a CR 20 trap in the dungeon

eh my cleric gets it from a dragonmark.

@Novian More like, it'll teach him to actually give out the treasure for a CR 20 trap.

he did

it solved my heavy armor 1 space movement problem.

some sandals from some item set.

@Novian Actually, it solved your "I had to buy the ploy macguffin from my starting wealth" problem

it did

If you're wanting to handle anything that gets through greater concealing amorpha - try this d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/sharePainForced.htm

I think Ill use that.

There's a Bag o' Rats psionic healer build Itried once, but I was never sure if it ever actually worked.

Bag o Rats Psionic Healer?

explain

you have a bag of rats, i.e. creatures you can kill very easily

then you use something that gives you a bonus (healing, sounds like) when you kill things

not sure what power's being used for that though

Psionic healing is somewhat rare and unusual

@somori a Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator is a big fan of shield other. Crusaders get really, really efficient combat-healing, has a lot of HP, and receives bonuses when he's damaged

also, the Vestige Dahlver-Nar gets a shield self Su ability, which is like forcing someone else to cast shield other on you

phylactery of change.......can be so abused.

Polymorph self unlimited duration change shape 1/day.

I found something I think Im going to abuse. A Large 1 handed Weapon can be weilded at a -2 Penalty by a medium creature as long as it weilds it as a 2 handed weapon. and that doesnt bother me at all.

Wild Blue seems very much like Dogs in the Vineyard, but with more fay and less Mormons.

My group might enjoy it; there was some trouble getting into the Dog mindset with its emphasis on ethos and exploring moral boundaries.

@okeefe that is a classy icon.