TRPG General Chat

nitsua60

00:03

What's the phrase used to describe podcasts/youtubes that are (lightly edited) recordings of game sessions? Like Critical Role, or whatever Colville's thing is...? I'm blanking, for some reason.

Also, does anyone listen to the Glass Cannon Podcast? (Paizo's one of those ^^ )

BESW

@nitsua60 Lets play/actual play?

nitsua60

"Actual play" sounds right, maybe?

BESW

00:33

There's also variations on 'streaming play,' 'live streaming,' 'recorded stream,' etc.

Hot RPG Questions

02:10

1

Q: Are there any limitations on the length of a chain of actions?

Prompted by this question about the sleep spell and waking those effected by it, I've been wondering whether it has been commented on officially. The issue of a chain of dependant events all occurring in the same six seconds must have been noticed before now. In the case of the question that prom...

Hot RPG Questions

02:34

4

Q: Do all attacks need to be done with a light weapon to use two weapon fighting?

When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. If the character can make multiple attacks as part of the attack action, do all o...

dnd-5e two-weapon-fighting multiattack

9

Q: How can I help players that aren't used to or comfortable answering questions?

It's common in powered by the apocalypse games, as a part of the narrative flow, to ask players questions about the world to which their character would know the answer. For example you might say: As you browse the wares, you notice the imposing form of Tlexkirash the hunter only a few stalls aw...

gm-techniques powered-by-the-apocalypse

nitsua60

03:00

So help me, I jumped into another round of DGtS on meta....

Good luck, @rubiksmoose @V2Blast @linksassin @Someone_Evil =)

Hot RPG Questions

03:23

3

Q: I've felt "attacked" OOC because of IC character events. Did I deserve it?

When I was in college I had my first chance to play some TRPG. I played half-a-dozen one shot there but then I dropped out and when I enrolled again I couldn't find another group. Now, years after that I've finished college but wanted to try building a table to start playing again. However, the l...

problem-players new-players group-dynamics character-death character

BESW

03:41

"The clever folds that kept letters secret" article by Richard Fisher for BBC. ( @BardicWizard you might like this )

V2Blast

@nitsua60 "Actual-play" is the one I see used most often. Though one "RPG Museum" wiki article I found online just defines "actual play" as follows:

> An actual play is the play of a role-playing game that is performed as entertainment for an audience wider than the group of people who are playing it, generally recorded and broadcast over the internet. Actual plays may be performed live like a theatre show, by video recording, or as a sound recording (i.e. podcast). Some actual plays may be provided in several or all of these formats.

BESW

"Writing Playbooks: An Approach" article by Jay Dragon on Medium.

WE WAIL by Secession Cycles. A rules-light RPG that fits on 2 business cards, inspired by They Live and WandaVision. For 1 or more players.

Please! Claim Your Magic Sword! by Justin Joyce. A worldbulding game based on a fantastical Lost & Found.

V2Blast

@nitsua60 <3

BESW

Simon of Color Spray Games wrote on twitter about how "Intent guides design and helps keep it focused."

BESW

03:58

Supporting Indigenous Resilience: A Charity Auction for Residential School Survivors hosted by Crafting Geeks. Members of the dice community have come together to bring you a 36-hour charity auction to raise funds for survivors of the Canadian Residential School System, an issue that often does not receive enough attention.

4

Bardic Wizard

05:19

@BESW Woah. That is so cool!!!!

Oh, by the way: churches here can have choirs again! We’re limited to only fully vaxxed singers, still masked, but we had our first practice in 14 months today!

Except now I get to go back to lugging 8 hymnals and a binder back and forth twice a week. That’s not so fun.

Still, it’s the best thing I’ve done lately

BESW

05:36

Awesome!

We don't do, like, choirs, here, but there's a lot of just singing and I miss it a lot.

The youths write a lot of their own songs and teach them to everyone else.

kviiri

05:53

@BESW Yeah, I've understood the "acid" theory was quite popular: some other sour foods like sauerkraut also worked. (And I mean: vitamin C is a type of acid, so it's not 100% wrong!)

This one time I googled what "ascorbic" means, in the longer-form name of Vitamin C "ascorbic acid". It comes from Latin "a-" (negation) and "scorbutus" --- so literally "anti-scurvy acid".

The name should've clued the European sailors to the preventation of the disease ;)

bobble

Some of the parts of town we drove through today had a lot of boarded-up windows and "FOR SALE" signs - sad to see all the businesses that couldn't survive losing tourists during COVID

BESW

07:25

The new Cozy Town layout is adorable, in an aggressively pastel kind of way.

Oh, @BardicWizard, that new shawl for your mom looks lovely.

AncientSwordRage

11:59

@bobble that is sad

I'm hoping they get filled soon

@BESW aggressively pastel feels about right

@BardicWizard that Shawl y'all :D

AncientSwordRage

13:17

Given that the economy of D&D is approximately 0% analogous to the real world, consulting real economic phenomena to discern in-universe economic phenomena seems unhelpful. — Thomas Markov 59 mins ago

@ThomasMarkov given that D&D Economy makes no sense, and that consulting your GM first are both D&D truisms, it hardly felt worth mentioning initially

Thomas Markov

I just dont think your analysis there is particularly helpful, especially given that the result is that the map from gems to dust severely diminishes the value of the product.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov Yeah I see that too :/

My guess was they wanted to know if a 500gp ruby gave them more than 500gp worth of dust

Thomas Markov

It just doesnt allow conversion from gems to dust in a way that is helpful to the players. It takes two resources that are intuitively connected from the player's perspective and makes them totally disconnected. Under your suggestion, gems and gem dust are just entirely unrelated resources, no more related than lumber and stone.

@AncientSwordRage It makes no sense in comparison to our real world understanding of economics. But if we divorce our real world expectations of economy from the game's mechanics, it's really quite simple. And this simplicity is why it doesn't make sense in comparison to the horribly complex intricacies of real world economics.

Its no less sensible than Skyrim, where reading Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations means the smithy in WhoCaresVille will automatically give me your more money for your garbage.

For a game that simulates economics astoundingly well, look at EVE Online, where real world economists use it to test market hypotheses.

2

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov but to me the intuitive connection is that one costs less than the other because you potentially lose value by smashing them

@ThomasMarkov you make a good point here and you've given me an idea

Thomas Markov

13:33

Google Scholar delivers 3940 results for "EVE Online".

Interestingly, D&D delivers nearly 8000 results on google scholar.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov that's pretty incredible

Thomas Markov

This search of google scholar gives some neat results for highly technical economic analyses of EVE Online.

Here is Master's Thesis examining macroeconomic indicators in EVE.

I use my EVE experience in a real life. My spreadsheet skills were honed doing wildly complex industrial accounting work for an EVE corporation. When my boss asked me “how did you get so good at spreadsheets” I just say “lots of practice”, but the real answer is that I ran an accounting department with 10 employees in an internet spaceship game.

2

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov hah, amazing

I've updated the answer btw

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov I never got into the accounting side but boy did I love me some anomalies

I was an archaeologist and had to play the sneaky dodge game in null-sec all the time

I had a whole route of like 10 regions I'd hop through and scan. safe waypoints and everything

I miss EVE but I don't miss how much overhead I had to do just to go play my minigame for a few minutes

Thomas Markov

13:50

I miss it too, but the time commitment just doesn’t work with me having a family now.

Going to bed at 7 pm to get up for a structure timer at 3am before going to class at 8 doesn’t work.

Trish

14:06

@ThomasMarkov if you want to include Stars & wishes to your recent answer...

and maybe one could sort it for "safety tools" and "other" ?

Thomas Markov

I dont think that's exactly what Im looking for there. My reading of your Q&A makes it seem more like an general tool for enhancing communication about the play experience and what things we would like to in the future. But using it as a safety tool doesnt seem to fit as well into the context.

The emphasis you put on positivity makes it seem like a poor tool for addressing highly negative experiences.

Star: I liked the part where we didn't talk about [triggering thing], Wish: I wish we didn't include [triggering thing] into our story telling.

This seems to fit poorly within your paradigm.

Which is fine, I think its a great tool for other things just not this thing.

But maybe Im misunderstanding it.

Thomas Markov

14:23

So I know there are diverse understandings of what constitutes support for an answer, so I'd like another perspective on this answer. To me, it seems to be just an unsupported statement of trivia.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov it's les of a prevetive tool or emergency tool, but one that helps to make people comfortable with starting to talk in a positive way. It's to help establishing a communication. For the emergency, the X and the Veils are good. It's more as a way to help people to talk

@ThomasMarkov that would violate the positive way needed for stars/wishes.

@ThomasMarkov citation yes.

Medix2

15:41

@ThomasMarkov I agree with you and TylerH

RevanantBacon

15:57

@ThomasMarkov It's still correct though. Just because it doesn't meet your standard of minimum number of citations or whatever doesn't mean that it's wrong or bad.

And FYI, I know that you know that it's correct, since you have the same information in your answer, but with more detail.

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon The only reason I know its correct is because I did the research for my answer.

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov The why you know doesn't matter, only that you do know

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon So would you say that KRyan's answer falls into this category, as explained in our citation expectations guidance: "Many things we might say are common sense or common knowledge and nobody will request a citation for them."

Medix2

@RevanantBacon No offense, but not only is the following a citation expectation of ThomasMarkov, but of the whole site: "For many things, however, nobody should have to take our word for it that what's being said is true; we need to show it is. If someone requests citation it's probably needed—revise your post to add that citation."

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon No, it does matter, because if I hadnt already done the research for my answer, not only would I not know if KRyan was correct, I wouldnt even know where to begin to find out if he was correct.

Medix2

16:05

For me, that is answer is wholly unsupported and backs up none of its claims which is bad

Thomas Markov

@Medix2 Needs a post notice tbh.

Medix2

I always forget those exist... but agreed

Thomas Markov

At least, that's my understanding of what the notice is for - unsupported answer that still get upvotes.

Pretty sure someone explained it to me that way.

Apr 7 at 14:16, by linksassin

@ThomasMarkov There is a varying standard. Some posts are so poorly supported and just generally bad that they fail to actually address the question, therefore qualifying as "not an answer" and grounds for removal. Some are borderline and just need a nudge, which is where comments or a post-notice can help.

G. Moylan

@ThomasMarkov got another two lifts at or above 100 yesterday, total of 3 now

Thomas Markov

@G.Moylan Nice! I did my deadlifts pain free this morning.

G. Moylan

16:10

@ThomasMarkov That's good!

Hot RPG Questions

16:25

4

Q: What is a 500gp Ruby useful for?

After looting a body, we recently received a 750gp necklace, and were specifically told that it consisted of 250gp of gold, and a 500gp Ruby set into that gold. That seems remarkably specific, and our first assumption was that the Ruby is the right size to be a component of some particular spell....

dnd-5e spell-components treasure

GcL

16:45

@Medix2 Some people use asking for a citation as a subtle way of saying, "I think you're lying"

Thomas Markov

@GcL You got a citation for that? :P

Hot RPG Questions

4

Q: Considerations for assigning Constitution buff within the party

We've recently acquired the Wondrous Book of permanent +2 Constitution. What are the metagaming considerations for in the party to assign this buff to? The most obvious considerations to me are: Increased HPs. Increase Constitution Saving throws for maintaining Concentration spells whilst under ...

dnd-5e ability-scores party-formation

GcL

@ThomasMarkov xkcd

Stupid automatic link expanding interface!

doppelgreener

@ThomasMarkov it's a signpost for "needs to improve". sometimes that signpost is for the author. sometimes that signpost is for everyone else: "don't follow this example, consider yourself warned"

@ThomasMarkov great work!

i hope you don't mean like, actual pain!! form's important

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener I had a hip issue for a couple months now, but Ive made some form tweaks that seem to be working well.

doppelgreener

16:57

ooh

that's brilliant

Thomas Markov

Something around my right SI joint impinges on my sciatic nerve when I bend past a certain point, but Ive figured out I can avoid it by dropping my hips lower and raising my back angle a bit at the bottom of the lift.

GcL

@doppelgreener Whats the difference between those two uses? When I see that signpost, which is it?

doppelgreener

@GcL it's usually both, but if this is a highly active HNQ, the signpost is even more likely to be there as a measure of quality control to signal our quality standards to new arrivals

Thomas Markov

Contentional wisdom would probably say my hips are too low when I start the pull, but conventional wisdom wasnt working for me.

doppelgreener

if it's in a super inactive question, the signpost is likely just for the author

@Glazius you articulating “the line” and how it interacts with GM and player improv in this answer seems great, and is a concept i'm going to bear in mind even outside this context

RevanantBacon

17:11

@ThomasMarkov I mean, I don't feel strongly enough about it to argue. /shrug

@ThomasMarkov Also, this is amusing with no context.

Thomas Markov

@RevanantBacon Not really trying to argue, was just trying to understand a differing perspective. Like, if you think it does meet our citation expectations, why? Or if you don't think those expectations apply to this answer, why? I don't know how one would arrive at either of those conclusions, but if you have, it would be helpful for me to at least understand how other users see and apply our citation guidance.

GcL

@RevanantBacon I concur.

@ThomasMarkov It's a signpost applied for "this is garbage" instead of just deleting it. Like a banner of shame when just downvoting isn't enough.

AncientSwordRage

17:30

@ThomasMarkov I saw you pop up on that maths room

@RevanantBacon "It's still correct" You can only because you also know it's correct from previous knowledge

a priori none of us know or can verify an unsupported question without doing the legwork ourselves

I hope I used that fancy term correctly

GcL

@AncientSwordRage "a priori known of us know" doesn't parse for me. Can you restate that with different phrasing?

AncientSwordRage

17:45

@GcL edited. I've had a long day unfortunately

GcL

I've never seen it used that way. Usually I read "a priori" in relation to assumptions that aren't going to be addressed by the experiment or investigation being undertaken.

AncientSwordRage

I thought it meant "Assuming no prior knowledge"

GcL

For example, assuming there won't be significant cell division without lysine being in the culture media. Would be an example of a priori knowledge about the nutritional requirements of the cell culture.

AncientSwordRage

@RevanantBacon knows a lot about FR lore, so he obviously knows about the underdark. But assuming he didn't know that (no prior knowledge), he can't be certain that answer is correct

I see ... what am I thinking of ...?

> A priori knowledge is that which is independent from experience. Examples include mathematics,[i] tautologies, and deduction from pure reason.[ii] A posteriori knowledge is that which depends on empirical evidence. Examples include most fields of science and aspects of personal knowledge.

from wiki

GcL

@AncientSwordRage That's true of most answers. If rigorous proofs and solid deduction is desired, this probably isn't the stack to be digging through.

AncientSwordRage

17:50

@GcL you can still support it without being rigerous

GcL

Sure, but linking to definitions of things is more of a convenience for the reader than support.

AncientSwordRage

you don't need to prove it every time, but can say "Underdark is mentioned in book xyz"

GcL

You probably should if the threshold is zero prior knowledge.

AncientSwordRage

I think that is a safe assumption (unlikely, but safe)

GcL

Safe doesn't mean good. It's safe to assume zero knowledge, but it does make for tedious answers.

AncientSwordRage

17:53

how is referencing a book tedious?

GcL

Links for every noun, game defined verb, and the specific common meanings of words that the answer hinges on... I'd go read a journal if I wanted that sort of bibliography.

What's an elf? What's a short sword? What's an Attack? What's a dragon? What's a dungeon? It could be assumed that the audience knows none of that.

It would be a safe assumption.

AncientSwordRage

this feels like you're missing the point..... if the asker is asking about "does X exist elsewhere" you can reference the equivalent of X in those places

they've already asked about X, so you don't need to redefine it

unless you're going to challenge the definition they bring:

> In London the underdark is called "The underground"

well that's just not a D&D World :p

Thomas Markov

@GcL Our guidance has space carved out for this.

> Not every claim you make will need citation. Many things we might say are common sense or common knowledge and nobody will request a citation for them. For many things, however, nobody should have to take our word for it that what's being said is true; we need to show it is. If someone requests citation it's probably needed—revise your post to add that citation.

Carcer

I believe Gaiman refers to it as "London Below"

I take it we're arguing about kryan's answer on that underdark question then

GcL

@ThomasMarkov The guidance is explicitly "I think you're lying?" ouch.

Thomas Markov

17:58

@GcL I dont follow.

AncientSwordRage

@GcL no

GcL

"that what's being said is true; we need to show it is."

AncientSwordRage

> nobody should have to take our word for it that what's being said is true

GcL

Show me it's true, because I don't take your word for it. Which is one reason to ask for references.

AncientSwordRage

true could be substituted for accurate

GcL

18:00

Accurate would be a better term there. Probably should make that substitution.

AncientSwordRage

@GcL I think in this case they're intended to be synonymous

there "true - correct", and there's "truth - lies"

Thomas Markov

Yeah, there's a difference between lying and being wrong, and it's quite clear from the context of the guidance which is being referred to there.

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov it feels clear to me

so much so I wasn't sure what @GcL was referencing initially

Thomas Markov

It does not say: "nobody should have to take our word for it that we are being truthful", which is how you are interpreting it @GcL.

GcL

@AncientSwordRage I like accurate over true because on one side true isn't always sufficient. It's true that you are an ape typing on the internet, but that's inaccurate. On the other side the true often has a binary connotation with false. If you're not being true, you're being false.

Medix2

18:08

I find it somewhat humorous that I don't understand any difference between the terms

AncientSwordRage

@GcL human's aren't apes though, same family different genus

so I'd say that wasn't true

Medix2

That I am an Ape typing on my phone is neither true nor accurate to me

AncientSwordRage

like I wouldn't say that humans are fish is true either, nor that birds are dinosaurs

that can be argued, but you'd be missing important information in supporting that argument at present

L Cooper

@GcL Or: show me where you discovered that X is true, because then I can do further research beyond what you told me. Especially for the answer that started this whole conversation, giving sources could be immensely helpful for guiding the querent towards further knowledge.

AncientSwordRage

@LCooper sources and supporting paragraphs both help

GcL

18:12

@AncientSwordRage Phylogenetically, you're a member of the Hominoidea (Apes). More specifically, you're a great ape.

@LCooper I like that reason for asking for references.

Carcer

@GcL no, you're a great ape

L Cooper

@AncientSwordRage Yep, showing your work isn't just for math class!

Thomas Markov

If I'm a DM approaching worldbuilding, and I say "Does this concept exist in these worlds?", and you say "Yes", all youve done is provided trivia that wont really help me with my worldbuilding. But if you say "Yes, here is where it is described", you have equipped me to further pursue the integration of this concept into my world.

7

Trish

@GcL 1st rule of math: you need to either presume something is true and show the result, or you need to rely on the work that is true from someone else.

AncientSwordRage

@GcL Islam is a member of Abrahamic faiths, but that doesn't make me (a muslim) a Christian (or vice versa for fairness)

GcL

18:13

@Trish Which is great for a mathematics stack about proofs.

Trish

@GcL "This is true because shows work" is great for all stacks.

6

Thomas Markov

@Trish And also the basic premise of the network lol

GcL

@AncientSwordRage You're going the wrong way on that branching. The subclasses are members of the superclass, but subclasses aren't members of each other.

Trish

@AncientSwordRage it makes us (a muslem and a roman catholic) members of the superclass of book religions and Abrahamic. We are subsets with overlap.

L Cooper

Mathematics codifies the concepts of which things are assumed knowledge and which things must be explained, but it's not the only situation where that distinction is important. It's just more ephemeral in other fields.

AncientSwordRage

18:17

@GcL Maybe I'm classifying apes wrong ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Thomas Markov

@LCooper Math even has subfields where you assume something is true even though you dont know that to be the case.

AncientSwordRage

@Trish (Muslim*) but yes I agree

Medix2

@ThomasMarkov I KNEW you would mention that

Thomas Markov

Many researchers have devoted lots of time to just assuming the Generalized Riemann Hypothesis and exploring all the things that work because of that.

Trish

@AncientSwordRage As long as you don't misclassify the Librarian as a monkey, all is well. He'll use the B-space to come out of your collection of RPG literature and correct that.

Thomas Markov

18:18

Heck, there are fields of math where you just make stuff up and then prove stuff in your made up world.

L Cooper

Anyway, the point is, citing sources is helpful! Sure, I could've googled the term Sahkil from this answer rpg.stackexchange.com/a/185614/49671. But while linking to a source was easy for the answerer (since they knew what they were looking for), it may have been hard for me to find the same page, since I didn't have the context for anything

Someone_Evil

@Trish I thought it was L-space(?)

AncientSwordRage

it is L-Space

GcL

@AncientSwordRage Ape is further upstream on the phylogenetic tree than great ape which is further up than human.

AncientSwordRage

@GcL gotcha

Trish

18:19

@Someone_Evil could be... I thought it was Book-space... Library-space... it allows him to punch you through your collection of dead trees :P

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov sounds like physics

May 12 at 0:25, by AncientSwordRage

@bobble I run on physics. And physics is just maths and lying.

Trish

@AncientSwordRage naaaaa, Physics is Lying and shoving stuff at mathematicians.

GcL

@LCooper Being helpful to the reader is a very good reason to me.

AncientSwordRage

@Trish I will also accept that

@Trish this is a good example of just that

Trish

@AncientSwordRage yep, that's an "other physicist problem"

G. Moylan

18:45

Physics is... well... Okay, assume we have a spherical cow...

@Trish assign it to the grad students

Trish

@G.Moylan nonsense, cows are point masses.

G. Moylan

@Trish I thought that was chickens

At any rate, the apple isn't really falling. It's an inertial frame, so really, the Earth is accelerating upward into the apple

Hot RPG Questions

2

Q: How to determine the cost of ruby dust?

Inspired by this question. There are spells like Continual Flame which require ruby dust as a material component. The rules explicitly require "ruby dust worth X gp", not "ruby dust made from rubies worth X gp". Let's say we found a ruby that costs 500gp and want to crush it to a ruby dust. How m...

dnd-5e spell-components treasure

Trish

@G.Moylan Chickens are spheres and we assume they bounce elastically from one another.

G. Moylan

@Trish logically

Trish

18:53

@G.Moylan I claim that earth is permanently falling towards me and the apple has a movement vector that is kind of complicated but intersects with earth's towards me.

Thomas Markov

@Trish chickens are toroidal.

Trish

@ThomasMarkov but earth is a Torus already!

G. Moylan

@Trish Bull...

Trish

@G.Moylan Look at a picture of the magnetosphere of earth. It's a torus.

G. Moylan

@Trish It doesn't even have horns

Trish

18:55

@G.Moylan That's TAUrus!

G. Moylan

@Trish What's Taurus?

Trish

@G.Moylan Taurus is latin for the constellation of Bull. A Torus is a torodial body.

G. Moylan

@Trish I know that I'm messing with you. I was making bull jokes the whole time

At least, I was trying to :P

Trish

I know that you know that I know that you know that I know that you mess with me because I mess with you

G. Moylan

Are you thinking that I'm thinking that you're thinking what I'm thinking?

Glazius

19:00

@doppelgreener Yeah, John Harper's pretty solid on this. It's not that there's an uncrossable line there, but more that you can "see everything" on your side of the line, so what looks like an easy jog to you is a dead sprint into pitch black for somebody else.

G. Moylan

BTW, if anyone is trying to turn off the awful Windows weather thing they added to the task bar, you can edit a registry key to shut it off: HKEYCURRENTUSER:\SOFTWARE\Miscrosoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Feeds -> DWORD ShellFeedsTaskbarViewMode Value 2. Then reboot. [Don't edit registry keys unless you're confident in what you're doing]

The weather feed has been breaking some dual screen use, and shutting the feed off has seemed to resolve the issue

GcL

[ editing registry entries ] I'm confidently screwing stuff up!

G. Moylan

@GcL Weeeeeeeee!

GcL

19:16

Found it! reg export is the command we used to use to make backups of the registry sections before screwing them up. Always back up your registry before breaking your windows installation.

Hot RPG Questions

19:41

5

Q: How to describe & roleplay past torture, prejudice and gender discrimination without upsetting fellow players too much?

In the next adventure I'm going to play a drow male, who was casually bullied, whipped etc by females o the drow society. That's how that society works, after all. It's in the books. He now has a new deity and purpose, but wounds are supposed to be fresh. D&D is a heroic game, and more grim and d...

dnd-5e dungeons-and-dragons roleplaying social

AncientSwordRage

@HotRPGQuestions jeeeeez thanks HRQ for reminding me of that question

A wild good guy appears!

Emrys Ternal

20:49

I want to get some feedback on how I have my players roll up ability scores for D&D. I have a method which assists to try to make poor arrays unlikely. The worst possible theoretical array that would stick is 14,14,14,4,4,4 . I can quote the full method if anyone's willing to give feedback.

Thomas Markov

49

Q: How can I avoid problems that arise from rolling ability scores?

Rolling ability scores is a time-honored tradition across many editions of D&D. However, it can sometimes cause problems for players and/or the DM. For example, one player character may end up much weaker or much stronger than the rest of the party, which can result in a poor experience for some ...

gm-techniques character-creation dungeons-and-dragons ability-scores

Relevant

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov I remember this question. If my memory serves me well, the top scoring answer is basically just "To avoid the issues cause by rolling for stats, all you have to do is: not roll for stats"

Thomas Markov

Patient: "Doc, it hurts when I do this." Doctor: "Then stop doing that."

RevanantBacon

Ah, yes: "Option 1: non-random ability score generation"

Emrys Ternal

That's not really all that helpful, because bad arrays hurt far more than good arrays help. All the methods in that post basically say either "don't make it random" (which if you want it to be random is not helpful at all) or "someone's going to get screwed and too bad on them" which isn't actually helpful it's just "screwing them over with extra steps".

RevanantBacon

20:58

@ThomasMarkov That's why doctors get paid $350 for a 10-minutevisit

Thomas Markov

@EmrysTernal Nah, check out the Tarot method I bountied.

RevanantBacon

@ThomasMarkov Oh yeah, I saw that one. I really want to try it out some time

Thomas Markov

It's really cool. It both gives players lots of control over their stat distribution, but also tightly controls the range of outcomes.

RevanantBacon

@EmrysTernal I mean, "how do I avoid the downsides of randomness?" can realistically be only answered by saying "use a less random option" or "you can't, you'll just have to deal with it"

Emrys Ternal

I'm not looking to avoid the downsides of randomness

(the horror!)

I'm looking to tweak a set of "if-thens" to make bad arrays very unlikely

Thomas Markov

21:01

Yeah, so to avoid a possible XY-Problem, why don't you first tell us the sort of outcomes youre looking for, and that will better inform us about how to evaluate your method

If you just tell us the method, the best we can do is probably a statistical analysis, but with some insight into what sort of at-table outcomes youre looking for, we can probably give you more helpful stuff about how it relates to the psychology of character generation.

It'll help us give the statistics some context at the table.

Emrys Ternal

I'm looking for a method that consistently results in characters that exceed (+2 mod or better) at at least 3 scores, and do not have more than one terrible (-2 mod or worse) score.

1. For each score, roll 4d6, dropping lowest die. If there’s a tie for lowest die and they’re 1s or 2s, drop one of those dice and then reroll the other lowest dice until they’re any higher die roll.
2. Then, if at least 4 of your 6 ability scores are lower than 14, you may choose to reroll all of your Ability Scores again. You may repeat this as many times as desired, but you must always use the newest set of rolls.
3. After applying the above, if your lowest ability score is lower than 8, reroll that ability score (as above) until it gets any higher number. If there’s a tie for lowest sco…

MikeQ

Step 3 seems very inefficient, rerolling until greater than 7. Why not just have a floor at 8, so anything less becomes 8?

Thomas Markov

Why not just use traditional 4d6 drop and reroll the whole set till you get an array within your parameters?

Emrys Ternal

@ThomasMarkov Because that's just brute-forcing it

Thomas Markov

@EmrysTernal Why is elegance a concern when the only thing you care about is the outcome?

MikeQ

21:08

Why bother with random rolling if players get infinitely many rolls? That's what a standardized array is for.

Someone_Evil

Generate a list of 100 valid arrays and roll for which one?

2

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil ooh good one

Emrys Ternal

They don't get infinite rolls in all cases, they only get infinite rolls if their newest array has 4 or more scores lower than 14.

And even then they don't have to reroll they can choose to take it as-is

They just MUST reroll their lowest terrible score and only if it's terrible

So the worst possible array that sticks is 14,14,14,4,4,4 , where it was originally 14,14,14,4,4,3 and the lowest rerolled to a 4

Which is insane odds, but theoretically possible

Thomas Markov

So do you actually care about the method, or just the results?

Which is where player psychology is important.

Some players enjoy having some measure of control over stat gen.

Some players dont care.

Some players like intricate gen methods

Some players like just being given an array.

Emrys Ternal

Both. I care about rolling for ability scores with actual dice (a game feel concern) and not just modifying the resulting score if it's below expectation (which takes away from rolling dice), instead rerolling part of / the entire score (a game feel concern), all while also consistently resulting in characters that exceed (+2 mod or better) in at least 3 scores, and do not have more than one terrible (-2 mod or worse) score.

I personally as a GM despise using point buy and pre-gen arrays, because they entirely destroy the game feel of rolling up your ability scores.

So I don't allow point buy and pre-gen arrays or not using the freakin' dice.

Carcer

21:19

and yet you really hate the game outcome of rolling for scores

a rock and a hard place you are between

Emrys Ternal

No, you're putting words in my mouth

I hate players having a terrible time in my hard-as-nails game because they either A: don't exceed in at least 3 scores and/or B: have more than one terrible score.

GcL

@EmrysTernal Brute force used to work for us. Defined a criteria. If the rolls didn't meet it, we threw them out and started over. Rarely took more than two tries.

Emrys Ternal

21:41

I'd love a statistical analysis of "best roll probability, then next best roll probability, etc" but I've yet to find a tool that works with my existing method because it has if-thens.

Anydice doesn't support that

Not like this anyway

At best, if I wanted array probabilities I'd have to code up something myself

BESW

22:03

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Oct 9 '14 at 2:04, by BESW

Personally I think if there's an all-encompassing Rule 0 which can be applied to every RPG ever, it's "don't touch the randomiser unless you're okay with any result it might spit out."

GcL

@EmrysTernal Running a game where not being dead depends on some initial RNG luck is rough in D&D. For the epic ride or die style Eberron campaign I ran a few years ago we upped the point buy total by 4 points.

Thomas Markov

@EmrysTernal maybe soften your nails?

In my experience, player decision making has far more to do with survival than ability scores.

BESW

22:20

That depends a lot on the kind of threats the players face, and how much the threats force mechanical engagement (which means it's both a GM and system choice.)

eg, OSR games, I think, tend more toward rewarding players for bypassing lethal mechanics than for surviving them.

Emrys Ternal

Actually, no, the theoretical worst array it could have would be 14,14,14,7,7,7 , because a roll lower than 6 is impossible before determining any rerolls, and any 6s would at-worst become 7s.

and even an array of 14,14,14,7,7,7 is still kinda workable in the right build

GcL

Seems like a very unforgiving game if one needs the right build to play.

Emrys Ternal

That's reductive. I was talking about the worst theoretical roll that would still stick.

GcL

Do the players at the table seem to enjoy developing and playing min-max'd characters?

Emrys Ternal

and the odds of that roll happening are insanely low

GcL

22:25

But would the worst theoretical still be fun to play?

Emrys Ternal

Well yeah, any array can be theoretically still fun to play, even all 3s, in 5E

That would just take the right kind of player

GcL

Theoretically fun to play doesn't sound like actual fun.

Emrys Ternal

Or the right kind of table

GcL

Are those kind of players at your table?

Emrys Ternal

Dunno yet, only have 2 of 4 players so far

There's so much stuff swinging in their favor in other ways that I really shouldn't worry that much

It's a tough game, but my game relies a lot more on players acquiring resources like inspiration and temporary boons and temporary renewable bonuses only applicable to allies through roleplaying than it does on min-maxing

GcL

22:30

The only thing I worry about with the distribution of ability scores between players is avoiding the situation where one player outshines the others and then becomes the go-to character for an unfair share of the tasks, hurdles, obstacles.

It's not much fun to play second fiddle to superman.

@EmrysTernal What are the most likely outcomes and what's the variance?

Emrys Ternal

Sometimes you just get lucky. Ability scores aren't everything. I've been running simulated arrays for about an hour and rolled up completely naturally 17,17,18,13,17,14 with no rerolls of any dice.

And it would completely suck for your GM to tell you that your rolls were too good when you did them in-person with the GM's dice

Disheartening even

(I only ever accept ability scores when the player rolls them in front of me)

Ideally in front of everyone

I'd argue that playing second-fiddle to superman is a table problem, not a roll problem.

A good GM can talk to the superman PC's player about it and make it not a problem. Hell, Alucard in the Castlevania TV show is OP AF and they lean into it.

GcL

22:55

@EmrysTernal A television show isn't collective story telling where one or more players may feel out-shined and superfluous.

Emrys Ternal

That's ridiculous on its face. Yes, a TV show is not the same as D&D, but it's an example of a heroic group comparable to a D&D party in terms of power wherein no one feels left out despite a character being OP.

A good GM can make it not a problem, and not just be balancing encounters for that higher-powered character instead of for the party.

BESW

Different mediums have different needs. Some of my biggest blunders as an early GM designing campaigns came from trying to recreate screen or page experiences in campaigns without considering how the adaptation across mediums would change things.

Emrys Ternal

Yes, which is why the original superman was a poorly-written mess

honestly, still is a poorly-written mess

BESW

And it really depends on the system being used, too. Spotlight management isn't just dramatically different when I change the story from "a story being seen by passive observers" to "a story being seen by the people creating it," it also changes based on the game engine and the kinds of things it encourages or discourages.

Emrys Ternal

but I'm not going to get intot hat

BESW

23:05

There's a fundamental difference in how mechanics influence agency and spotlighting between, say, The Doctor Who Role-Playing Game, Atomic Robo, and Kids With Bikes--all of which are games designed for one or more PCs to be dramatically more competent and capable than others.

A system like D&D which assumes a generally level set of competency modes is a completely different landscape altogether.

Emrys Ternal

It's a heavily-modified 3.5E

bounded accuracy is not a thing

The primary difference is that you never roll 1d20 vs a target number, you roll 3d6

BESW

So, yeah, technically a table can make anything "work" if they're skilled and have solid communication, but I wouldn't dismiss concerns as "ridiculous," and the GM can fix it just means something was broken in the first place and puts an undue amount of pressure on an individual to spontaneously manifest skill to do things which a change in system and/or table culture could mitigate or make a total non-issue.

Emrys Ternal

So rolls bell curve to 10.5 , and you're incentivized to throw away your modifier to roll even more dice (which have an EV close to but better than your modifier), and to use rewards earned through excellent roleplaying and insight to help other players mechanically (which gives an even bigger help if you roleplay that too)

BESW

23:26

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