TRPG General Chat

BESW

00:18

@BardicWizard Example: if I made a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle in D&D, I'd need to include a mechanic that applies a number or exception to "good at video games." If I don't, then if being good at video games ever comes up in the campaign I'll be without a way to show it because there's nothing on my character sheet about that quality.

We all know that TMNTs are good at video games, but the pre-written mechanics need to agree in order for that to manifest in the game in a way that influences the other mechanics.

In Fate, we know that TMNTs are good at video games, so it becomes a mechanic at the moment that it needs to. I could make it a mechanic during character creation, but all that's doing is signalling to everyone at the table that I expect video game skills to be important.

It's the difference between "I am a martial artist, which means I have access to [list of abilities]" and "I am a martial artist, so I can do martial artist things as needed."

Bardic Wizard

00:32

@BESW ah.

BESW

Being a martial artist, or a TMNT, or a black ops social worker, or a plant person grown in a lab by an unethical scientist, gives permission for anything that's reasonable to expect from that truth. We don't need an exclusive or exhaustive list, and we don't need to flag things are potentially important before they become important through play.

...I wanna write a game that puts something like InSpectres' suggestion mechanic at the core of play.

Other PCs say things they think are true about your character, and you get currency when you play them as true.

TheDragonOfFlame

01:35

Side note: I have never played Fate but I have played GURPS. I believe they are somewhat similar? I find GURPS quite fun

sjgames.com/gurps

Hot RPG Questions

9

Q: What are the repercussions of the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide errata to the cantrips Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade?

In the most recent update to the Sage Advice article, Green-Flame Blade and Booming Blade have received errata to their range and spell text, being altered from Range: 5 feet to Range: Self (5 foot radius) Furthermore, the text of GFB and BB have been altered from As part of the action used ...

TheDragonOfFlame

01:51

Not much to add there... answer sums it up

sadly now my OP 10 foot reach distant spell shadow blade wielding sorcerer build is weaker

BESW

@TheDragonOfFlame What I know of GURPS suggests that it's still very much embodying the D&D-like attitude of pre-written permissions. It's just got a lot more permissions available and allows for more freedom in mixing them together.

AncientSwordRage

@TheDragonOfFlame I've only played gurps, but mechanically they seem diametrically opposed to me

Ben

@AncientSwordRage Ah gurps... home of the 11d1 dagger

BESW

Both have the goal of "flexible system creates highly customizable play in any setting." But GURPS accomplishes this by providing an extremely high amount of pre-made options, while Fate accomplishes it by making pre-made options entirely optional.

GURPS, so far as I can tell, doesn't really provide a lot of "writing permissions dynamically through play" features.

Even a Fate product like Atomic Robo, which is very crunchy and has a lot of pre-written options, spends a lot of its text on guides to understanding the system so we can mechanize whatever permissions emerge through our play.

The Oracle

0

Q: What is the “Don’t Guess the System” policy?

When a user posts a question, we usually need to know the game system and edition in order to adequately answer their question. Sometimes a user fails to sufficiently specify this in their question, either missing the explicit system, edition or both. As a community, we have addressed topics rela...

discussion policy game-systems faq-proposal

1

Q: Revisit: ‘5e’ as sufficient system statement

This is a revisit of Is '5e' a clear enough statement of game system by a question asker? which has for a while been cited as part of the Never Guess the System policy, specifically to the end that simply including ‘5e’ is not sufficient information. However, over time votes have trickled in whic...

discussion policy game-systems

Bardic Wizard

02:09

@TheOracle oh, god, this again

AncientSwordRage

What level spell would be required to cause an eclipse?

In 5e d&d?

KorvinStarmast

@MarkWells see thunderwave as an example

Mark Wells

@BESW This makes me think of Identities from Unknown Armies: "I'm a Ninja Turtle, of course I can (throw a shuriken, scale a building, play video games like a boss).

BESW

@MarkWells Even 13th Age toyed with the idea in its Backgrounds.

KorvinStarmast

@AncientSwordRage Cleric 20th level ability, Divine Intervention :)

Bardic Wizard

02:19

@AncientSwordRage why?

TheDragonOfFlame

02:32

@BESW well, sort of. It does have a lot of pre written abilities, and it has a few too many rules. But there are also rules for making your own abilities and stuff. It is a fun game, the only downside is a few too many rules

but min maxers can go WILD with all those rules

BESW

@TheDragonOfFlame Making your own abilities is still pre-written permissions if they're defining what's possible in play, rather than play defining what's possible.

This isn't about WHO writes the permissions so much as how the permissions interact with the story: do they define the story, or does the story define them?

Ben

BESW

When I write the aspect "Uncontested arcade champion" for my character before play in Fate, it has no more influence on what is possible than if I simply mention he's a local celebrity for his skill with arcade games. What I'm doing by writing it down is signalling that I think it's important to remember.

If I mention it but don't write it down, I can write it down later when it becomes important. Writing an aspect down isn't what makes it true; aspects are just sticky notes on particular existing truths.

The Oracle

02:56

-1

Q: What is the process for establishing and maintaining policies?

What determines if a policy is valid or not? How do votes interact with policies? How are contentious policies handled? Is a majority needed to implement a policy, is consensus needed, or something else? Are moderators be allowed to overrule policies? What happens if a user does not follow a poli...

discussion

BESW

May 21 at 3:50, by nitsua60

@TheOracle ugh... I wish the word "policy" weren't getting slung around so much. Like it or not, we don't really have policies nearly as much as we have practices. There are very few things around here that anyone--editor, voter, moderator, employee--is going to say is so clear that "yes, this will be applied in all situations, no consideration given, no context needed."

TheDragonOfFlame

03:11

@BESW ok fate sounds fun I should learn

BESW

The "trick" with Fate is that it requires the party to be good at holding a shared understanding of their goals and truths, because the game doesn't do as much work to enforce setting, theme, etc.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, exactly

BESW

This can be mitigated to greater or lesser extents by using a shared universe; either a Fate-specific setting with a large reference text like War of Ashes, or a licensed franchise like Atomic Robo, or a genre homage like Masters of Umdaar.

Any of those provides a more or less solid calibration point from which to depart as you play.

(One of my problems with the Dresden Files franchise using Fate for its TRPG license is that the DF setting doesn't react well to improvisation and playing loose with continuity, which is one of the strengths of the Fate engine.)

Actually, that's a broader problem I've seen in a lot of TRPG story-telling spaces. Most of our media is pre-written and pre-edited. We discover things as audience members, and characters discover things as people in the world... but the creators aren't just discovering those things. Even if a creator was surprised by their own work (it happens a lot!) they had the space to go back and re-write, polish, fit it all in so it works with the pacing and consistency.
Most TRPGs are built with the goal of replicating the experience of our favorite media, but the nature of the TRPG means the creato…

While reading a Dresden Files novel has a lot of "discovery" moments, those are moments that the author wrote carefully in order to maintain the equilibrium of the work. Fate's discovery moments are improvised and unedited, so there's a lot more potential for disruption on the level of theme and tone, not to mention the fragile diegetic political equilibrium of that particular setting.

This works a lot better in, say, the Atomic Robo RPG where the story is about disruptions to the new status quo and living in the new worlds they create. Fate's improvisational discovery works with the licensed franchise, rather than against it.

@user-024673 I think you may be running into a terminology issue. The Stack Exchange likes to talk about "policies" but that's far too officially all-encompassing a term for the reality of site-specific guidelines. The faq tag is a decent place to start getting a grip on how things are expected to work, but in the field it's more like principles and practices that get applied on a case-by-case basis.

The Stack Exchange just doesn't provide sites with the authority structure necessary for the consistency implied by a policy-based praxis.

Really, the whole thing is more like a series of ongoing conversations that a small subset of the community participates in, and reifies as best each individual is able to the extent of their understanding and capacity.

Shalvenay

03:45

@user-024673 the easiest way to avoid that sort of trouble in Stackland is simple: pay attention to the comments people leave on your posts -- generally speaking, if you post something duff to the Stack, folks are going to tell you what's wrong with it and what you need to do to fix it

BESW

Have any of your posts been deleted? So far as I can tell you've got nine posts, only two of which are negatively rated, and that's not a ratio which is likely to trigger any automatic sanctions.

MikeQ

It can be confusing. The meta site isn't strictly a Q&A like the mainsite, so often the "correct answer" to determine the best practice can change over time

BESW

@user-024673 "Top" can change depending on how you've got the posts sorted; you control the sort order. Highest-voted is usually a better reflection of the most recent consensus. And often praxis drifts over time and then a new meta conversation needs to be held to talk about why it drifted and what should be done (change theory or change praxis).

Shalvenay

yeah -- only ways folks get banned from a Stack are either for drawing a bunch of spam or rude/abusive flags (the former's easy to avoid, and the latter are pretty rare IME, I've only had to raise a handful in all my years of Stackizenry), or by asking a bunch of questions that all get downvoted instead of going back to workshop what you originally posted

(or well, maybe not the only)

BESW

@user-024673 Aye, it's not gonna be so straightforward. The tools that the Stack Exchange gives its sites to make decisions aren't designed for community consensus. Meta is just the same interface as mainsite, which is. bad.

It's frustrating for pretty much everybody, I think.

Shalvenay

03:51

@user-024673 which policy are you talking about?

that might help clarify things a bit

BESW

@user-024673 You were not threatened by that user. The user made no statements of intent. He was alerting you to an automatic algorithm applied by the Stack Exchange itself, which revokes posting rights when it sees a poster making rapid posts that are consistently downvoted and deleted.

He was trying to help you, and your insistence on attributing malice to an attempt to inform you about how the site works, is probably part of why you're getting brusque feedback since.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah -- that's the algorithm I was referring to as well with the "ask a bunch of questions that all get downvoted" thing

@user-024673 no, its that "if you keep on this same course, then you'll bump into $BIGOBSTACLE"

BESW

@user-024673 PurpleMonkey did not threaten to delete your posts. He was telling you about a post suspension protocol. That's different.

@user-024673 I mean, no. People told you that PM wasn't doing what you said they were, and you just laughed and insulted PM's intelligence.

I was there, I saw the comments.

And PM wasn't saying a ding-dang thing about post deletions.

@user-024673 Right... and in meta, too. So this isn't the first you head about it.

Shalvenay

@user-024673 if you get downvoted and keep on posting things that get downvoted instead of going back to address what you got downvoted for

MikeQ

The ban algorithm only applies in cases that look like spam, doesn't it? You'd need a lot of posts in quick succession that all get many downvotes in order for that to happen.

Shalvenay

03:58

@MikeQ well, for a permaban yeah, the suspension is more what we're worried about here

BESW

The users who originally commented on your answer were not moderators, they were simply politely informing you of site expectations. I however, am (note the diamond) and am going to heavily edit this meta post to no longer be insulting to the users who were trying to help explain site policy to you. As Medix2 correctly states the metas linked have seen their votes changed making the current policy confusing. The mod team is aware and will work to correct this. — linksassin ♦ Nov 5 at 5:56

V2Blast

It was also explicitly stated in reply to you in chat that nobody was "threatening to ban you" (and the explanation was very clearly not "that user [...] was just pretending"):

Nov 5 at 4:23, by Medix2

@user-024673 Please know they did not say that

BESW

@user-024673 You can get your ability to post questions suspended without any other site privileges being revoked, if you keep posting questions that get downvoted instead of trying to improve the existing ones.

V2Blast

Nov 5 at 4:23, by Medix2

> [...] continued disregard for site policies can get you temporarily banned [...]

Shalvenay

@user-024673 the site can stop you from posting more questions, but that's intended to be a cue to workshop/fix what you've already posted

V2Blast

04:00

^ What Shalvenay said

MikeQ

Is this another case where somebody guesses the system and then everything explodes?

BESW

I'll walk away, I've got stuff to do.

V2Blast

I might understand your position better if you didn't keep insisting that a user said "you will be banned" even after it's been pointed out that that's not what they said. You don't need to mischaracterize others' statements if your intent is to convey that you just misunderstood what they meant.

MikeQ

User bans are typically reserved for violations of terms of service. Harassment, spam, piracy, etc. Simply diverging from RPG.SE site practices, like guessing the system or citing an unofficial SRD, isn't immediate grounds for that.

Shalvenay

@user-024673 yeah, the Stack is very much not a forum

MikeQ

04:07

So when new users do something against the agreed-upon practices, what should happen is an experienced user will give feedback like "hi welcome but we don't do that around here." And usually that's sufficient. However there have been times where a user repeatedly disregards the feedback, and that's when suspensions are considered.

V2Blast

@user-024673 My messages below "It was also [...]" are links to Medix2's exact quote of the relevant part of the original comment.

MikeQ

Also keep in mind that this is all text communication, and many internetfolk tend to write in a curt and not-fuzzy manner, so do consider that a message that sounds confrontational may not have hostile intent.

V2Blast

I absolutely understand how the original statement could have been misunderstood... But you could simply have accepted the correction once it was pointed out what their statement meant, rather than insisting the original user's intent was clear even if the comment didn't actually say what you insisted it meant.

@user-024673 Yes. Medix2's message (the second link there) is using the quote formatting

MikeQ

@V2Blast New users might not understand what the quote formatting means.

V2Blast

I can understand how it can look confusing with embedded messages :P

I'll demonstrate the quote formatting here:

> this is a quote

like that

Ah right. You start a line with >

MikeQ

04:11

@user-024673 Not quite. Having reputation doesn't mean that a user is always right. But it does often mean that they've been participating for a while and their participation has been mostly up to code with the current site practices.

V2Blast

@user-024673 quotation marks work too - the quote formatting I'm talking about above (i.e. starting a line with > is moreso intended for blockquotes, like in the way it's used in Q&As on mainsite/meta. It also only works if it's at the start of a chat message (i.e. you can't insert that blockquote formatting in the middle of a multi-line chat message).

Medix2

@MikeQ We have plenty of high-rep users who disagree on various issues, so clearly they can't all be right

@user-024673 What you are calling "the policy" was and is not the policy; it just happened that things are... confusing right now

@user-024673 You mean the "is 5e clear enough" Meta Q&A, yes?

The policy is/was that "5e" is not clear enough. The votes reflected this until rather recently, which was not noticed and thus went unaccounted. That doesn't mean the policy suddenly does a 180; instead the revisit Meta Q&A has been asked to look at how people would vote again now

How to explain... There was a very clear, unambiguous policy. Votes happened that made it confusing for new users

@user-024673 I'd rather that than have it change day-to-day at least

There isn't and I'll explain one thing actually

At least for me, a big reason not to have rigidly defined things such as "vote time" and "time until the policy is decided" and similar metrics is because they can (and will) be abused and loop-holed and whatever else

I don't know if that's a valid answer to your question though; a "I don't want these defined"... maybe it is; I'll start writing up thoughts at the very least

MikeQ

The meta site is for asking questions about the mainsite and discussing mainsite practices. Sometimes a decision on a meta site question will be treated as policy. But it's not like a formal codified legal system. There's no specific process for how these decisions become accepted as the new best practice. Answers to an outdated question could be different now, which could warrant a new answer or even a new question.

Medix2

@user-024673 I do believe the posts you stumbled upon are the only two posts with that problem. Not really sure what that means, but I felt I should point it out

V2Blast

04:37

@user-024673 To a large degree, this is why we recently posted the "What is the 'don't guess the system' policy?" Q&A on Meta - because previously, understanding the current policy basically required reading through multiple Q&As and sometimes trying to figure out what ended up getting accepted as policy even if the votes had changed since then (as in this case)

V2Blast

04:48

5

Q: What is the “Don’t Guess the System” policy?

When a user posts a question, we usually need to know the game system and edition in order to adequately answer their question. Sometimes a user fails to sufficiently specify this in their question, either missing the explicit system, edition or both. As a community, we have addressed topics rela...

discussion policy game-systems faq-proposal

Hot RPG Questions

05:21

6

Q: Can the spell Booming Blade be affected by the Twinned Spell metamagic?

Booming blade is a Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide cantrip that allows the spellcaster to make a melee weapon attack with their weapon and add additional power to the attack: You brandish the weapon used in the spell's casting and make a melee attack with it against one creature within 5 feet of ...

dnd-5e spells metamagic

Hot RPG Questions

06:11

3

Q: Can the blade created by Shadow Blade be used with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrips?

The spell shadow blade allows a spellcaster to produce a discrete weapon that can then be used to make attacks: You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends. It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you ...

dnd-5e spells

3

Q: Does the material component of Booming blade need to the same one used in the attack?

Does the spell specify that the material component need be the same as the one used in the attack? As part of recent errata to the green-flame blade and booming blade cantrips, their material components have been amended to "a melee weapon worth at least 1 sp" (Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, 14...

dnd-5e spells cantrips spell-components

Adeptus

@user-024673 Have you read the tour and help pages? They might help you understand how the Stack differs from a discussion forum, and how the site "works".

Humble has a Conan RPG bundle for the next 2 weeks.

Has anyone played it? What's it like? Pros & cons?

kviiri

07:02

@TheDragonOfFlame I think BESW covered Fate pretty well already, but I want to emphasize one thing: if someone says they're similar games, they're probably thinking first and foremost of the fact that they're both "generic" systems, or not bound to a particular kind of setting like DnD or Starfinder is. However, I think the term "generic" is a bit bad because it's often used to mean that you can murder orcs in a haunted castle or on a spaceship, without regard to other qualities.

BESW

@Adeptus I'm not familiar with the 2d20 system, but for myself I'd be skeptical of any Conan property for the same reasons I'd be skeptical of a game based on the writings of anyone else in the Lovecraft Circle.

Do people miss my erratic indie game link dumps, or was I just screaming into the void?

It's very possible that everyone here who's interested is also in my Discord server and sees them there.

Adeptus

07:45

@BESW I find them interesting. Technically I'm in your Discord server, but I'm never there..

kviiri

09:00

@BESW I enjoy them on principle, but what with the life that's been going on, I'd be lying if I said I read as much as a tenth of them

Every now and then something still caught my eye

Wanderhome is one of those games I'd love to try at some point but I don't think I have the right friends for it

trogdor

oh yeah Wanderhome

I really really want to play that

and Sundown too but I have had such looow energy and I am the person who is suposed to be learning that system to run it XD

Hot RPG Questions

1

Q: Do mirrors extend a Medusa's Petrifying Gaze?

The 5e Medusa has a 30' Petrifying Gaze ability: When a creature that can see the medusa's eyes starts its turn within 30 ft. of the medusa, the medusa can force it to make a DC 14 Constitution saving throw if the medusa isn't Incapacitated and can see the creature. A Medusa's Petrifying Gaze ...

dnd-5e monsters

vicky_molokh- unsilence Monica

09:41

They're similar in terms of flexibility, but they differ both in terms of design principles and of implementations. The FATE family is often introduced by the phrase 'it models fiction, not physics', which is to say, it models genre fiction. Contrast against GURPS, which would firmly be described as 'models physics' *mostly* genre-agnostically, with genre conventions usually plugged into that on a per-need basis (or not at all, producing a 'literary fiction'-like or 'nonfiction-like' effect).

There's also the Lego vs. Plasticine factors. Whereas in GURPS, you'll often find additional toolk…

BESW

11:15

Sooooo apparently I'm going to be playing in a PF2 campaign soon?

halp

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I can't help, I've not done any PF2

trogdor

same

never played it

AncientSwordRage

@BardicWizard I made a Kobold Sorcerer in 3.5, as sort of a story character rather than a pc. Being a Kobold they were mocked, but they decided to make a spell to show their power, and causing an eclipse seemed like a decent way to do so

trogdor

kinda not incredibly interested in it seeing as everything I've ever heard about any Pathfinder is that it's basically the same as D&D

AncientSwordRage

@KorvinStarmast I should have clarified this as an arcane spell

BESW

11:19

@trogdor Same, but I've always said that the one case which will get me to play a game like this again is if it's with a group of close friends who really want to.

AncientSwordRage

@trogdor I've heard it's the same but different, which can induce some "wait but why is that different to vanilla dnd" feels

trogdor

I mean that is some motivation

AncientSwordRage

@BESW That would get me to play most things

Except maybe FATAL

(content warning if you decide to Google that one)

I'm not sure what content but just... Warning.

BESW

Jul 20 '15 at 9:07, by BESW

All I can say about FATAL with something approaching neutrality is that it's definitely intended to be a playable RPG. (This is not something which can be said for HYBRID RPG; the only definitively RPG element in that incoherent racist Marvel-obsessed rant is the title.)

(Sorry about the pre-edited link, to the person who needs to hear it.)

AncientSwordRage

@BESW I wasn't even sure it was intended to be played, is I've definitely learnt something

trogdor

11:26

@AncientSwordRage I feel like, probably everything?

just content warning just don't look at it

AncientSwordRage

I've just had the best eggs on toast in my memory, and I think the secret is parmesan cheese and garlic (powder in my case, for convenience)

trogdor

it sucks in all of the ways

BESW

To quote myself from somewhere else (and leaving out the details),

> The game's infamy does not derive from being a bad system (though it is) but from being a mess of horrifying themes lovingly detailed.

@AncientSwordRage I suspect parmesan cheese and garlic are the secret to many things.

3

trogdor

I don't know how someone could publish it honestly

or expect anyone to,... play it

@AncientSwordRage that sounds far too good, I wonder if I have Parmesan I have all the rest of the ingredients

BESW

@trogdor It was self-published.

trogdor

11:28

well that explains a lot

BESW

No, it explains exactly one thing. Everything else remains a mercifully unexamined mystery.

trogdor

well it explains how it got published

which is,... a lot but not nearly all

there is a titanic amount to explain

BESW

There are worse things which claim the label of TRPG. This is not an endorsement.

trogdor

we can honestly just stop talking about it

XD

@BESW I don't even want to think about that

XD

BESW

Sooo anybody have any resources for a new PF2 player?

trogdor

11:31

much better topic yes

AncientSwordRage

@BESW going back to PF2 please keep us uptodate, PF1 seemed to close to 3.5 which I was happy to be done with after 4E and coming back seeing 5e. But both 13th age and PF2 seem like they might be far enough removed to be more than just (bad† system + tweaks)

(†for a given value of bad)

trogdor

13th Age was actually pretty neat

BESW

Yeah, I'm intellectually curious on that front as well.

trogdor

although I don't know how much I would still enjoy it now

BESW

Although this group is unlikely to give me an unfiltered PF2 experience, I'll try to get a sense of the system independent of their particular brand of play.

trogdor

11:34

I mean

is any group going to give an unfiltered experience of anything?

BESW

No, but this group is gonna skew from the rules in particular ways, I think, that lead to the system being implemented with significant deviance from its expected playstyle parameters.

trogdor

ah

BESW

For one thing, I expect this group to be at least moderately sensitive to the bioessentialism and exoticism I doubt PF2 has done much to excise from its origins.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that can still be a good view on the system, presumably they aren't making changes at random

BESW

For another, I expect "rule of silly" to dominate a lot of mechanical interpretations.

trogdor

11:42

lol

you don't have any silly freinds

all serious people

all the time XD :P

BESW

kviiri

12:06

@BESW How did this come to pass?

BESW

@kviiri Some friends I used to play with reached out for an online game.

doppelgreener

12:22

I am not sure how to respond to that new meta question except by starting at the beginning

and explaining that we're just a bunch of people trying to figure out the best way to handle things, and that our understanding of the best way to handle things can change and develop

and we're not a legislative assembly

trying to understand our site as policies is ... kind of wrong

I am not sure if I want to, either, because I think this might not actually be a new user, the nature of their issues sounds eerily familiar :/

BESW

They came into the chat a few hours ago, with mixed results.

...My PF2 game is now going to be a Delta Green game.

doppelgreener

Oh. Well then, that sounds exactly like a past user.

trogdor

@BESW oh ooooh I thought you were talking about some other group, I got that offer too and said I didn't want to play Pathfinder

BESW

I knew you were being reached out to also but didn't want to put you on the spot.

doppelgreener

@BESW What's PF2?

BESW

12:34

@doppelgreener Pathfinder 2e.

doppelgreener

(I assume not Pathfinder)

trogdor

pathfinder 2

doppelgreener

Oh!

Wow, that's unexpected, lol

BESW

@trogdor Here's the free quickstart guide and character sheet to study while we wait for the full PDFs.

doppelgreener

Are you giving it a test run with someone?

BESW

12:35

1 hour ago, by BESW

@trogdor Same, but I've always said that the one case which will get me to play a game like this again is if it's with a group of close friends who really want to.

doppelgreener

noice

trogdor

I uh, I kinda made that not happen I guess

BESW

But Troggy told the GM that Pathfinder's a pass, so now he's floating Delta Green.

doppelgreener

that's fair

BESW

And he immediately asked for my lines and veils, so that's a good sign.

It's so weird being a player in a game that I'm not even organizing.

trogdor

12:37

I'm not sure I remember the last game I was in that I wasn't running myself besides that 5e campaign for the time I was in it

BESW

A couple of Cozy sessions earlier this year, I think.

trogdor

this year has all blurred together

BESW

Yeah.

trogdor

no one should trust my ability to remember exactly what happened this year

BESW

Aw, missed an Odysseus joke by that much.

trogdor

12:42

wat

doppelgreener

12:56

@linksassin o/ Are you around?

linksassin

@doppelgreener Yeah, for a bit, what's up?

Thomas Markov

OH MAN lots of meta happened while I was asleep

linksassin

@doppelgreener Well, what do you know... Thanks for raising them. I can confirm your suspicion, well spotted.

doppelgreener

It's kind of troubling because their interactions with us have a pattern of seeking exactness and acting poorly when it's not actually met.

I think I could answer this meta question but it's kind of difficult coming at it, knowing it's probably not going to be taken in good faith but instead as a "well this just makes things even more confusing!" because I can only answer, hey man, we're just some people trying to figure out how to make things work, y'know?

and I think Medix2 speaks pretty accurately when they say there's not a rigidly defined process because ... there isn't, we're not a legislative assembly or anything, we're just having some conversations trying to figure out what we want to do, and that's what works here.

linksassin

@doppelgreener Yeah, I was about 3/4 of the way through an answer when Medix posted and they were basically the same.

NautArch

13:05

@ThomasMarkov woof. yep.

doppelgreener

Thanks. I think I partly needed to just point to those, but yeah, I'm frustrated because I want to answer but want to not engage even more. I have had a 0% success rate providing satisfying explanation to this person and I think that's shared by a lot of us, so I'm concerned by the potential for disruption here.

NautArch

@Ben Would you mind checking in on your meta question? It seems a bit unclear to me and I posted a comment asking for a clarification.

linksassin

@doppelgreener Leave it to us. I think not engaging is likely the best approach for now.

doppelgreener

Thanks for saying so :D

I'll leave it in your hands

gotcha

so this would be like their lost-count-of-how-many-times-th time they've done stuff like this

linksassin

I am going to remove some of these comments as this isn't really the place for this discussion btw.

doppelgreener

13:15

ok.

Xirema

13:30

@ThomasMarkov 😛

I mean, if people are going to ask me to mention that rule on my answer.....

Thomas Markov

haha fair enough

doppelgreener

5

Q: Revisit: Is "5e" a clear enough statement of game system by a question asker to determine that the question is about D&D 5e?

This is a revisit of Is '5e' a clear enough statement of game system by a question asker?, which has for a while been cited as part of the Never Guess the System policy, specifically to the end that simply including ‘5e’ is not sufficient information to determine that the question is about D&D 5e...

discussion featured policy dnd-5e game-systems

General request re this topic: I answered the previous iteration and it was well received. If you were one of the people who upvoted it, could you consider answering the new question with your stance? I'm not going to be very available to engage on the topic—a lot's happening including that I'm moving home and I've got medical issues I'm taking care of—and it'd be nice to see others going to bat on the topic as well.

Thomas Markov

@doppelgreener See the answer I just posted.

doppelgreener

Thanks. Can I suggest clarifying how you'd approach a question that merely says "5e", vs a question that says "5e" but also includes multiple D&D-isms? That seems to be a dividing line on the topic

Thomas Markov

Yeah Ill see what I can do.

NautArch

13:41

My gut feeling is that folks like understanding what the 'policy' or process here is. If we don't have...something...then it's always a debate beneath those questions.

But I'm starting to lean towards @doppelgreener's answer

BESW

@doppelgreener Let me know if there's anything I can do to support the stuff going on in your life!

linksassin

@NautArch A positive outcome from this meta would be a codified line in the sand as to what is or isn't an acceptable edit. I am prepared to be outvoted TBH. So long as we then have a clear exception to include in the new policy meta

doppelgreener

@linksassin I made a suggestion on the question itself

I thought about making that request earlier but didn't know how, now I do

NautArch

@linksassin I'm not even sure that's the right thing to do anymore.

And it begins with I'm not sure what the actual problem is.

BESW

May 21 at 3:50, by nitsua60

@TheOracle ugh... I wish the word "policy" weren't getting slung around so much. Like it or not, we don't really have policies nearly as much as we have practices. There are very few things around here that anyone--editor, voter, moderator, employee--is going to say is so clear that "yes, this will be applied in all situations, no consideration given, no context needed."

doppelgreener

13:50

We'd be going astray from what actually happens on our site by focusing on the issue of just "5e" in and of itself as a term, because the issue isn't about that—it's about that plus other references that might come up in a question.

@NautArch i've been trying to bang some pots and pans around the spot where there used to be a problem but now isn't because we're not experiencing it but we're still trying to apply the solution to the problem we don't any longer have

(and not because the solution is fixing it, the solution is a response to scenarios we don't currently experience)

BESW

@doppelgreener Cacerolazo or scaring a bear away?

linksassin

@doppelgreener My view would be that we no longer have the issue because we have the policy. Reverting the policy would be a return to when the issue did exist.

doppelgreener

@linksassin I mean, sure, many problems are like that, but I think this is not one of those at all

@BESW maybe the first

NautArch

@doppelgreener It seems like these discussions are generally started by active users complaining about 'stuff', and not by those the stuff actually effected (new querents).

doppelgreener

Like, this solution is how to address the problem a site experiences when it frequently gets people asking extremely unambiguous questions about potentially 3-4 different systems (multiple versions of D&D and possibly Pathfinder) and sometimes even homebrew mashups of those systems. We are not a site that frequently gets those. This is not something the solution would make go away in and of itself, the solution is a way to respond when that happens.

BESW

13:56

...How about a principle that, instead of being about when to add a system tag, is about specific comments that should associated with the action?

NautArch

I do agree with KRyan that no matter where the decision falls, the other side is going to post a meta about changing it.

doppelgreener

@NautArch No, I don't think so

NautArch

@doppelgreener I would be very pleasantly surprised if it was no

BESW

Instead of "don't guess," something like "always telegraph your guess with a comment inviting the author to clarify."

doppelgreener

Like, I need to level here. I don't think the fatigue about this topic is about revisiting it—there's lots of topics we've revisited. I believe the fatigue relates to the behaviour some people bring to the topic which acts to chill discussion.

I have expressed as much to the moderators.

@NautArch I don't know where KRyan has said this, but I would contest that you're seeing that chilling of discussion happen to you.

Thomas Markov

13:58

@doppelgreener I can confirm that KRyan has expressed this sentiment.

doppelgreener

The net result is to make people dread engaging in the topic for fear of re-encountering the same behaviour. That's chilling.

NautArch

@doppelgreener I'm pretty sure he's repeatd that refrain several times, mostly in comments.

doppelgreener

If we're being calm and kind people? Engaging in this stuff should not be something we dread.

NautArch

@doppelgreener I disagree that's it a chilling statement. I think it's an honest one.

I mean, maybe it is still chilling, but it doesn't mean it's not accurate.

Transcript for