TRPG General Chat

Novak

19:03

Hey, all, question about mechanics of the stack, for something I've never done: How do I award a bounty for an accepted answer (to someone else's question) that I think is outstanding and worthy of recognition?

Someone_Evil

Add a bounty, "reward existing answer"?

NautArch

@Novak You place the bounty and then I think you do need to wait a couple days?

before actually awarding, but i'm not sure on that.

Novak

Just that simple? Okay. Wasn't sure if there was anything special I needed to do since it's not my question, wanted to check first.

Thomas Markov

@NautArch Have to wait at least 24 hours

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov ah, one day.

so close!

Thomas Markov

19:08

But its probably good to wait a few day. If you mention whose answer you are rewarding in the bounty text, it sign posts that answer for people viewing the question.

Unless its the accepted answer, the it probably doesnt matter.

NautArch

And may help get more free internet points to them.

Thomas Markov

We have no active bounties right now gasp

@novak which answer do you intend to award?

NautArch

fyi, @Novak You didn't say which answer.

Novak

Well, I... did not mention it by name, and now it looks awkward. I guess it will resolve itself at the end of the waiting period.

Bah

Thomas Markov

@Someone_Evil Can mods edit bounty message text?

Novak

19:11

It is in fact the accepted answer that I want to reward, though.

NautArch

@Novak right, but "this answer" is pretty vague :P

Thomas Markov

Maybe just leave a comment then

Novak

@NautArch No, I understand-- that's exactly what makes it look awkward.

Someone_Evil

@ThomasMarkov No, we could remove the bounty (returning the rep), but a comment somewhere should be sufficient, no?

NautArch

@Novak no worries, I"ve made some awkward bounties

Thomas Markov

19:13

I bountied a -11 question that was 1 VTC away from being closed.

Novak

I throw myself on the collective wisdom of the assembled crowd: Leave it or (since it's only five minutes old) cancel and rewrite it?

Thomas Markov

I think its fine

Novak

I guess the question is: Once the waiting period is over, will that message attach itself to the answer as I had hoped?

Thomas Markov

No, the message goes away. Its sad.

Novak

D'oh.

NautArch

19:14

@Novak no, the copy goes away, bu the answer will get a fancy +500 under the vote total.

Novak

Okay, then I'll put a comment under the question so the responder hopefully sees it in time.

Er, the answer, I mean.

AncientSwordRage

19:29

@ThomasMarkov *desire to know more intensifies*

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage You can find it on my profile under bounties

AncientSwordRage

Ahhh I actually remember that one

Xirema

@ThomasMarkov I was going to make an edit to that answer about the errata for BB/GFB, but I figured I should mention it here: Jeremy Crawford explicitly disagrees with our ruling for GFB/BB, and states that both, under the new wording, are fully valid to be used with War Caster (with the caveat that GFB cannot deal its extra fire damage to a second target when used this way): twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1326598236937674752

Mark Wells

@Xirema As usual, Crawford does not hold to our standards of evidence.

Xirema

Which..... was surprising to me, since my initial wording (and my reaction last night) was premised on that definitely not being the case.

> A note about D&D spells with a range of "Self (XYZ)": the parenthetical—which says "5-foot radius," "15-foot cone," or something else—means you are the spell's point of origin, but you aren't necessarily its target. You're creating an effect that originates in your space. #DnD ―twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1326595384790056960

Thomas Markov

19:42

Not gonna lie, that tweet seems laughably inconsistent.

Mark Wells

If the spell has an area of effect, its target is its point of origin. "For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts."

Bardic Wizard

@ThomasMarkov unlike the rest of Crawford’s tweets? </sarcasm>

Mark Wells

Especially embarrassing was the change to lightning lure, which now says it has a range of "self (15-foot radius)" even though it has you choose a single creature you can see within 15 feet, and only affects that creature.

Thomas Markov

The Booming Blade Trade Deal is the worst Trade Deal ever made.

Mark Wells

Hey, maybe the next errata will do this to everything! Magic missile: Range self (120-foot radius).

MikeQ

19:48

It's a directed radius. You know, like in a directed circle.

Xirema

There's also some debate currently about whether shadow blade can be used with BB/GFB anymore, since both cantrips suggest the weapon has to have a monetary value, and no one has any idea what the monetary value of "Gloom" is.

Mark Wells

Cure wounds: Range self (touch radius)

NautArch

It's almost like there's a LOT of interactions that should be looked at individually

Mark Wells

Fireball: Range self (150-foot radius (20-foot radius))

Xirema

> If a D&D warlock creates a weapon with Pact of the Blade, that weapon has the value indicated in chapter 5 of the Player's Handbook (the text of Pact of the Blade directs the reader to that chapter to choose the weapon). Shadow blade, in contrast, weaves together gloom. #DnD ―twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/1326586049888362496

Thomas Markov

19:49

How did rpg.se think of all these issues in the span of a few hours and Wizard's couldn't think to make these things more clear before publishing?

Mark Wells

Call lightning: Range self (120-foot radius (60-foot radius (infinite height)))

Bardic Wizard

@Xirema I would suggest 1cp: to quote Charles Dickens, “Darkness was cheap, and Scrooge liked it”

NautArch

@ThomasMarkov no comment.

Xirema

@BardicWizard I think it needs to be at least 1sp to work with BB/GFB.

Bardic Wizard

@ThomasMarkov we all knew Wizards was borked, this is why.

@Xirema exactly.

Xirema

19:51

Can we manipulate the market on darkness?

Thomas Markov

This certainly reinforces my recent comment: the Wizard's QA team is every DM who has to rule on their nonsense during live play.

2

MikeQ

@Xirema If you can create a surplus of torches and sunrods, then gloom becomes scarce and thus its market value increases

Mark Wells

@ThomasMarkov If you open a meta on that, I will answer with "Because we are paying attention."

@MikeQ A sign of exorbitant wealth is hiring a wizard to cast darkness on your bed every night so you sleep better.

Thomas Markov

If designer reasons questions werent off topic, Id love to ask: "Has Wizard's stated why they can't think through the implications of their erratas before publishing them?"

@MarkWells Why wouldnt he just cast sleep instead?

Bardic Wizard

@Xirema ever read the picture book Nothing by Jon Agee?

Xirema

19:54

Nope

Thomas Markov

I guess sleep only last a minute.

Bardic Wizard

@Xirema basically a rich lady comes into a store that sells antiques, and there’s nothing left. So the shopkeep sells her nothing, which starts a trend, and people start throwing all their stuff out to buy more nothing.

Mark Wells

Darkness is only 10 minutes. Ehh. What you really need is some kind of permanent darkness spell, and then you can uncover the bed to fill the room with a nice restful magical pitch blackness

(In this world I'd also house rule that warlocks with devil's sight have trouble sleeping, since they have to wait until they're tired enough to fall asleep in broad daylight.)

I loved the flavor of some of the warlock-equivalents in Exalted 2e, where their magic gradually replaced their normal human behavior with weird Hell stuff.

Like, you start out able to run without getting tired. Cool. Then as you grow in power it reworks your physiology and you have to go out and run for 8 hours every night instead of sleeping.

Bardic Wizard

20:20

@MarkWells sounds like I would hate that power and one of my friends from school would love it cause she’s a track star (I know of at least two school records she broke as a freshperson)

Xirema

20:32

Do we actually have an existing Q+A for Twinned Spell and Booming Blade? I can't find one, and I wanted to add/update some answers if we did.

Thomas Markov

6

Q: Casting a Smite, then Twinned Spell on a Booming Blade?

Let's say as a Stone Sorcerer, I'm fighting two creatures within 5 feet of each other. So I cast Thunderous Smite as a bonus action, then twin spell a Booming Blade on one of the creatures. Does Thunderous Smite mean that both creatures need to make a saving throw or else be knocked away or only...

7

Q: Can I use the Illusionist's Bracers and the Twinned Spell metamagic to cast a twinned Booming Blade as both an action and a bonus action?

The description of the illusionist's bracers (GGR, page 178) says: While wearing the bracers, whenever you cast a cantrip, you can use a bonus action on the same turn to cast that cantrip a second time. The sorcerer's Twinned Spell metamagic option (PHB, page 102) says: When you cast a spell t...

dnd-5e spells magic-items actions metamagic

I dont think its been asked explicitly, because it didnt need to be

Xirema

The problem is, both those questions presuppose that Booming Blade can be twinned. They're not actually adjudicating that matter.

Thomas Markov

Exactly.

Because it was totally obvious before that bb could be twinned.

Xirema

Imma make one, we'll just close it as a duplicate if we find there already exists a question.

Thomas Markov

See this search: rpg.stackexchange.com/…

We have several questions that assume it works.

I think I already commented on all of them.

@Xirema Including one of yours:

5

Q: If I use Twinned Spell to target two creatures with an attack, do the attacks occur simultaneously?

Suppose you are a Sorcerer multiclassed with a Paladin, and you have Searing Smite active when you run up to two adjacent creatures, and spend a single sorcery point to use the Twinned Spell metamagic on the cantrip Booming Blade. You make two attack rolls, one against each creature, and both suc...

dnd-5e spells metamagic

Xirema

20:40

X)

RevenantBacon

I feel like this change removed a LOT of abuse cases

Thomas Markov

Abuse cases or use cases?

Xirema

I think I found a solution to the "Shadow Blade Monetary Value" issue.

Thomas Markov

I closed as opinion based but should have dupe hammered this: rpg.stackexchange.com/q/177337/62294

@Xirema You mind dupe hammering that?

The dupe target should be closed as opinion based.

Bardic Wizard

@Xirema oh?

Xirema

20:44

"Ask your DM what it would cost to hire a wizard to follow you around, and whenever you ask, summon a Shadow Blade for you. Divide that cost by the number of blades they summon for you in that time; definitionally, that is the economic value of each shadow blade"

2

@ThomasMarkov Done.

Bardic Wizard

@Xirema so... entirely dependent on the player’s use of the blade, the number of combats in a day, the cost of hiring a caster, and at least half a dozen factors I’m probably forgetting?

Thomas Markov

@BardicWizard Right, so basically the same amount of leg work as keeping track of new errata and JC's tweets explaining that poorly written errata.

Xirema

@BardicWizard If the answer is "1gp or more", then Shadow Blade is a valid weapon to use with the SCAG cantrips.

QED

NautArch

@Xirema thats the cost of the service, not the item. It's. ASAaS model.

Xirema

21:00

@NautArch But the act of casting isn't what has value, it's the item produced by the casting. The wizard is being paid to provide a powerful weapon that only lasts 1 minute.

Alright, I made the question: Can the spell Booming Blade be affected by the Twinned Spell metamagic?

I also gave my own answer, and if it hasn't been downvoted to -10 by the next time I check it, I'm very disappointed in you all. 😛

AncientSwordRage

@Xirema "Self (5-foot radius)" isn't the same as "Self". is just... it feels like someone stuck to a bad wording and tried to justify it

Thomas Markov

Eh, not buying it.

Bardic Wizard

@Xirema upvoted

Xirema

@ThomasMarkov You are 100% welcome to submit your own answer, and get it more upvoted than mine.

@AncientSwordRage Honestly, that is my sense of the situation. They needed a way to express "the spell originates from the spellcaster", but figured "Self (X-foot radius)" was an acceptable way to do that.

AncientSwordRage

21:17

@Xirema they need to overhaul targetting

Bardic Wizard

Suggestion: separate targeting and effect. It’s probably been done before, but it would be easier to separate the target (a point in space where the effect is centered or originates) and the effect (the shape and size of the area affected by the spell)

Then we could argue about whether something belongs as a target or an effect location instead of this mess of errata

Mark Wells

@BardicWizard It is already separate. The spellcasting rules are very clear about this, right up until they mistakenly use the word "target" to refer to creatures/objects inside the area of effect.

Bardic Wizard

@MarkWells ugh, WotC strikes again and misses horribly

Mark Wells

@ThomasMarkov speaking of that, I don't know how serious you are about collaborating on an annotated/recompiled spell list, but let me know, we'll either set up a room for it or I'll find a way to contact you off-Stack

AncientSwordRage

@BardicWizard BESW has heard you from 6000 miles away and is running to chat to post '4E did it first'

Thomas Markov

21:27

@Xirema I cited a rule in my answer that I think disproves your interpretation.

Xirema

@ThomasMarkov Uh-oh.

Bardic Wizard

@AncientSwordRage I’d bet on it but I don’t get to bet any more after the incident

AncientSwordRage

@BardicWizard phew

@ThomasMarkov This feels like an episode of Phoenix Wright: D&D Errata edition

Thomas Markov

I very much appreciate that @Xirema has taken something that I thought was entirely obvious and demonstrated that it is definitely not entirely obvious.

Xirema

I also put up another question (and answer): Can the blade created by Shadow Blade be used with the Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrips?

(I couldn't find a dupe for that one either; feel free to tag it if I missed it)

Thomas Markov

21:40

Gonna disagree with that one too.

Xirema

@ThomasMarkov I've got 45k rep points, come take them from me. 😈

Thomas Markov

I think we have a Q&A somewhere about how the cost of a material component is determined by the value it can fetch at any standard marketplace or some such.

@Xirema lol if you want to rep flex I can rep flex too:P

See this SEDE query: data.stackexchange.com/rpg/query/1269929/…

(@Xirema I do intend this in good fun, twice now you have pointed out things that I never would have thought of)

Xirema

No worries at all!

I'm extremely salty that WotC is trying to kill my sorcerer, but not at anyone here. 😛

Although TBH the Shadow Blade/BB/GFB loss would hurt harder than the twinned spell loss, which I already wasn't using because ~~WOTC hates Sorcerers with a burning passion which is why they keep giving them weak class features~~ my metamagic slots are used up by Quickened and Subtle already.

There it is

RevenantBacon

If it weren't for the fact that you can't cast more than 1 level 1 or higher spell per turn, Quicken would be the best metamagic by far

AS it is though, it's still pretty good

Thomas Markov

@RevenantBacon Action Surge.

Reaction spell on your turn

RevenantBacon

21:56

Doesn't work, and doesn't work

A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

AncientSwordRage

@Xirema can I shamelessly grab your errata introduction text?

Xirema

@AncientSwordRage Absolutely

Thomas Markov

@RevenantBacon It works if I dont cast a bonus action spell.

RevenantBacon

@ThomasMarkov Yeah, but I was talking about quicken

Thomas Markov

You said " the fact that you can't cast more than 1 level 1 or higher spell per turn". This is not a fact.

RevenantBacon

21:58

Besides, you can only action surge once per long rest prior to level 17

Thomas Markov

24

Q: Which uses of Bonus-Action spellcasting are legal?

Looking at other questions about casting spells as a bonus action has left me trying to keep a lot of information in my head about whether a given combination of spells is legal according to the official 5th edition spellcasting rules. So I'd like to consolidate all these rules into a single easi...

dnd-5e class-feature actions spellcasting bonus-action

Xirema

If I were being persnickety, I'd probably point out that as written "Self" still isn't the same as "Self (x-foot radius)" because the example cited in the spellcasting rules is "spells with cones or lines of effect", neither of which describe BB/GFB.

Thomas Markov

Another question from @Xirema

AncientSwordRage

@Xirema Thanks

RevenantBacon

@ThomasMarkov Actually, I said "If it weren't for the fact that you can't cast more than 1 level 1 or higher spell per turn, Quicken would be the best metamagic by far"

Xirema

21:59

Thankfully, everyone knows I'm not a persnickety person........ 🙃

Thomas Markov

And the premise of that statement is false.

Xirema

@ThomasMarkov I'm guessing in that context the implied meaning was "if it weren't for the fact that you can't cast more than 1 level 1 or higher spell per turn [when using Bonus Action spells/Quickened spell]"

Thomas Markov

@Xirema Maybe so. Great table btw, Ive used it many many times in my games to explain weird interactions.

Xirema

@ThomasMarkov And I got rid of the Bonus Action Spellcasting rule at my table because it was causing too many headaches. 🙃

@Xirema ^

Thomas Markov

@AncientSwordRage I both love and hate your question.

Bardic Wizard

22:09

On a related note, where does it define that the material component of a spell is “used” in the casting of a spell?

AncientSwordRage

@ThomasMarkov I'm honoured

Bardic Wizard

@Medix2 you beat me to an answer by approximately 14 seconds, dangnabbit

AncientSwordRage

It's my bad for not fully reading the errata

got to run

CIAO for NIAO!

Medix2

22:32

@ThomasMarkov I just don't like the comment "The last sentence captures the rule perfectly. No need for a big table or long discussions. It's a simple rule to follow." when that supposedly simple and perfectly clear sentence is includes three parentheticals, and still requires you to think through to apply it to a given case

Thomas Markov

Where is this at?

Medix2

Under the answer to Xirema's BA spellcasting question

But also @ThomasMarkov screaming noises

> A note about D&D spells with a range of "Self (XYZ)": the parenthetical—which says "5-foot radius," "15-foot cone," or something else—means you are the spell's point of origin, but you aren't necessarily its target. You're creating an effect that originates in your space.

BESW

@Medix2 ooof. Proof by adverbial obviousness is never a good look.

Thomas Markov

Yeah I hate that tweet.

Medix2

Well, it's here now

@ThomasMarkov Just that one? XD

Bardic Wizard

22:37

Can we just errata the errata to say that Jeremy Crawford was never the lead designer?

actually, can we just errata 5e?

BESW

> [all pages]: the text has been adjusted to work with your table's needs.

4

Bardic Wizard

incidentally, @BESW I think you were summoned a while ago

(scroll back to this )

BESW

....yeah.

It handled that quite neatly.

trogdor

22:57

XD

that isn't wrong 4e did do that

Xirema

23:09

@Medix2 My only thought about that tweet is that it's conspicuous mainly because he made it literally the same day the errata came out.

It would be one thing if the errata happened like months before/after, but when it's the same day, it's hard not to see it as a pretty rigid "Rules as Intended" situation

............ Which makes it all the more frustrating that the Rules-As-Written only line up if you're persnickety about the exact wording.

BESW

@BardicWizard 4e had a target line and a range line.

The range line had very specific options that gave a lot of flexibility.
You could have "melee weapon" (targets must be within the range of your melee weapon)
or "ranged X" (targets must be within X squares of you and this is a ranged power so you grant opportunity attacks)
or even "melee X" (targets must be within X squares of you but this is not a ranged power so no opportunity attacks).

Or it could be "close burst X" (targets must be within X squares of you in any direction)
or "close blast X" (targets must be within an X-by-X shape with one side adjacent to the square you occupy).
Then you could get into "burst X within Y" (pick a square within Y squares of you, and all targets must be within X squares of that square) type options.

And the target line would be "one ally" or "two enemies" or "all enemies you can see within the area" or "two creatures within three squares of each other" or "the creature that triggered this reactive power." Lots of room to be super specific. And you knew that a valid target had to be within the range.
If it could only affect you, it usually had a range of "personal" and no target.

Ben

23:26

Morning all.

BESW

Ben

In response to my meta question, I was sort of just curious. I mentioned it in chat before I asked the question (only @BESW was available to give some feedback). Wasn't overly sure how it was going to work

Medix2

@BESW IIRC there's also "wall X within Y"?

BESW

Yeah, being D&D it's got a lot of added complexity that's too much to get into in an overview.

Medix2

Somewhere I still have my 20-page summary of 4e's rules

BESW

23:37

eg, "burst X within Y" has to also be labelled as ranged/area because those qualities are the "how" of the range; area effects never provoke opportunity attacks while ranged ones always do.

And every now and then you see a really rare "melee X within Y" and your mind is blown.

But it's not breaking anything, it's just not a combination you almost never see.

Just the "attack" and "target" sections of HOW TO READ A POWER in the PHB take up a whole page on their own.

This actually tripped me up hard when I moved into systems like Fate because it's much less specific and I didn't understand, at first, what kind of clarity was replacing those detailed rules.

Bardic Wizard

@BESW how is it a different kind of clarity?

BESW

It's a narrative clarity. You don't need detailed rules about how to figure out whether you can set that other guy on fire based on metatextual facts like creature type and number of squares. The story as it's been told so far is your context for determining what's reasonable to happen next, and the fate point economy is used to have unreasonable-but-possible things (again, as determined by what's been established so far) happen instead.

The group is writing permissions through play, rather than getting permissions from a pre-written text.

2

One of my big "Ahah!" moments in Fate is that permissions aren't limited to the aspects we've written down. Aspects are just notes reminding us of permissions we expect to use. Anything that is true in the story is an aspect as soon as it becomes important, and aspects should fade back into background truths when they stop being important (otherwise we get overwhelmed by useless notes).

I'd been looking for textual permissions, and had latched onto aspects as the Fate equivalent of D&D feature-specific permissions, but that was backwards.

Bardic Wizard

23:54

that’s kind of fascinating

BESW

Lady Blackbird, on the other hand, uses its pre-made character traits as mechanical permissions which are only available after you reify them in the narrative.

You get to add a dice to your pool for every tag word you justify as relephant to your action by suggesting it with your description of the action. So tags are character suggestions that bribe you to make them real.

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