TRPG General Chat

Akixkisu

00:00

5e has a bunch of bad clause-bound indexicals.

trogdor

If i don't know those things it does indeed make the game worse for me

Medix2

@BESW 5e said: "Let the GM define things, we aren't going to"

Mark Wells

Yeah, I'm fine with it. It lets me play to find out what happens.

Medix2

I think a large chunk of the "problems" with 5e and its definitions comes from the fact that a good number of TTRPG players look for rigid definitions, which this system simply does not provide

Akixkisu

@Medix2 it is inconsistent about supplying them.

Mark Wells

00:02

If I'm going to plan something or make a decision, I have to rely on what I know about the world, not what I know about the mechanics.

BESW

@Medix2 I love several games which revolve around that principle; but 5e is not one of them, its system is not designed to support the principle. Its words and its structures are not in harmony.

Akixkisu

I feel the same, I play it anyway.

BESW

Sure. I'm not saying people shouldn't play it?

Akixkisu

You didn't.

5e is bad at that, but it is very easy to get people to play dnd instead of other games that do that aspect better.

Mark Wells

@BESW You didn't, but you're implying that this is a bad design choice. I choose to express my disagreement.

Helwar

00:16

I think 5e went towards "simple", and did mostly right by it but sometimes it lacks definition in mechanics. As this "healing" example showed us

it's not bashing the game, it's more like recognizing it's flaws

nothing is perfect

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, 5e did some good stuff. And then it screwed up Four Elements Monk. (Massive Arrggghh is now heard).

Akixkisu

Honestly the whole concept of classes belongs into a trash can.

KorvinStarmast

@Akixkisu Diablo CRPG (the original) tried to go classless when they first stared the game design, and in the end, it did not work.

And they ended up with a fine dungeon crawl.

Hot RPG Questions

2

Q: Does the Haste Spell give +1 BAB or only +1 attack roll?

So, the haste spells would give a character +1 extra attack and..... +1 bonus on attack roll. Could that be considered BAB or it is just an attack roll bonus? Example: A level 5 Barbarian (+5 BAB), after being hasted, would have 6 BAB or +5 BAB and +1 bonus attack roll?

Akixkisu

Getting specialisation just right isn't easy.

In that regard I feel like DnD is permanently broken due to its history and what people expect.

nitsua60

00:31

What's the word I'm looking for?

Something repulsively evil.

Akixkisu

Avocado.

nvm.

nitsua60

Like lampshade of human skin, evil.

Someone_Evil

Villainous?

nitsua60

Adjective.

@Someone_Evil Maybe. Heinous, but even worser.

Glazius

@nitsua60 Repugnant?

Miniman

00:33

Abhorrent?

nitsua60

Abhorrent's what I was looking for.

I kept thinking "abominable," but that wasn't quite it.

Someone_Evil

Dare I ask why you needed the word?

Miniman

Vile, atrocious?

Whoops, nvm.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 irredeemable also

Akixkisu

des-pi-kuh-buhl lets you spit your contempt against whatever abhors you.

KorvinStarmast

00:41

@Akixkisu I don't know why this is, but abhorrent makes me think of bittorrent.

nitsua60

@Someone_Evil I'm species-averse to the phrase "wolf in sheep's clothing," and wanted a way to characterize it.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 How about "troll in mod's clothing" as a substitute? 8^D

Akixkisu

@KorvinStarmast accurate.

Someone_Evil

@nitsua60 Ah, that might well be one of the funniest footnotes on the site

Miniman

@nitsua60 "Minimanish"

KorvinStarmast

00:42

@Akixkisu fair point

trogdor

@Miniman lol

Someone_Evil

@Miniman Hmm... I can't really do that with my username :(

nitsua60

@Someone_Evil I try. I can't remember any of the others right now, but <sup> tags make me feel like I can let down my... wool.

Miniman

@Someone_Evil I mean, except insofar as you did when you chose it.

Jeffrey Witty

Hello, I wanted to introduce myself, I'm Jeff. It seems some of you may know of me due to my recent activity

I thought I would thank everyone personally via chat

Someone_Evil

00:46

@JeffreyWitty Hya, welcome to the den

Wait, I think "lair" is the traditional term, but who's counting?

Jeffrey Witty

I am fairly new here, but hope to be a decent contributor

My recent "foot in mouth" event has led me to a rare "live type" appearance

anyhow, thanks to everyone, I'll do going to review some more questions.

Rubiksmoose

@JeffreyWitty Hi! And don't worry about it. We all have our unique things to learn when we joing the site and we all stumble on this or that. You're all good and you did exactly the right thing. We're here to help, so if you ever have issues, talk to the community and/or the diamond moderators and we'll do our best to sort it out. :)

I'm really happy that everything was able to be sorted out on all sides.

And I'm happy to have you on the site!

KorvinStarmast

@JeffreyWitty Hello Jeff! Glad to see you here! :)

Helwar

I caught the whole thing when it was already solved but It looked like it was managed all right so as Rubiksmoose says, don't sweat it. Nuance is lost in text form.

BESW

[wave] Welcome to the site, and to the General Chat room!

Adeptus

01:01

Hi! There's only a small group of us in chat, so we're not "everyone" as far as the Stack goes. Many people never come to chat. (others are here all the time)

trogdor

Lol

BESW

Ooof don't click on that spam link, massive content warnings.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW o/ hail. as I block the smoke detector announcements, I have the advantage of not even having a link to mistakenly click on.

trogdor

Oh my God just that username X'(

Wtf

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor not cool usernames are a long time internet habit ...

trogdor

01:11

I'm aware of that

BESW

→ 1 message moved to Trash

KorvinStarmast

we thank our local janitorial staff for their never ending efforts ....

BESW

It doesn't need to sit here for everyone to see, I've trashed it.

trogdor

It's still pretty bad regardless

Thanks

KorvinStarmast

@trogdor aye, and the unfortunate part is that whomever chose it probably thought that they were being funny

Helwar

01:21

It might be because I'm oblivious but... what was bad about it?

it's wooshing over my head

OHHHHH

I just saw

no need to explain

ugh

MikeQ

So anyway, in yesterday's game, there was a rough combat where my character (a low level cleric) got separated and ended up near the enemy boss. My cleric does not fare well in 1v1, so they fled.

illustro

@kviiri I don't really see how it can be a natural reading given you are ignoring the more general rule of casting a spell from a magic item (which you are most certainly doing with a spell scroll) which says no components are required. The spell scroll item doesn't add any components back in, or say "somatic and verbal components are required). I didn't want to pollute Medix2's answer with pings from replies, but I'm genuinely confused.

Hot RPG Questions

12

Q: Do Owlbears hibernate?

Do Owlbears hibernate like bears or stay active all winter like owls? Even the full page description of Owlbears in the AD&D 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual is silent on this topic. I don't have back issues of Dragon Magazine available so I'm unsure if hibernation was ever discussed. The campaign I ...

monsters dungeons-and-dragons lore animals

MikeQ

Luckily, the cleric found a bunch of beaten and near-unconscious prisoners. They would have been useless, however, they are living creatures, and my cleric can channel positive energy and break ropes.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Live to fight another day. well done

MikeQ

01:26

And that's the story of how I summoned a team of vengeful paladins.

KorvinStarmast

snort now that sounds like fun

How did the boss feel about this?

MikeQ

He felt nothing for a while, since my cleric has been relying on Calm Emotions. Then he felt stabbed by several Smite Evil effects. Then he died and felt nothing again.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ lovely symmetry there; I hope the loot was also symmetrical

MikeQ

No loot, sadly. The way Iron Gods is written, encounters give either worthless unusable junk, or a pile of complicated and valuable sci-fi gadgets.

kent

This feels like an embarrassing question but what is the difference between an Aasimar and a divine soul sorcerer

MikeQ

01:37

Aasimar is a race of humanoids who have some celestial heritage. Sorcerer is a class (could be any race) and their magical sorcerous power comes from a divine source, which lets them learn spells from the cleric spell list.

illustro

Aasimar: They are descended from humans with a touch of the power of Mount Celestia, the divine realm of many lawful good deities. Aasimar are born to serve as champions of the gods, their births hailed as blessed events.

kent

But like they both have divine lineage

illustro

Divine Soul Sorcerer: Sometimes the spark of magic that fuels a sorcerer comes from a divine source that glimmers within the soul. Having such a blessed soul is a sign that your innate magic might come from a distant but powerful familial connection to a divine being. Perhaps your ancestor was an angel, transformed into a mortal and sent to fight in a god’s name. Or your birth might align with an ancient prophecy, marking you as a servant of the gods or a chosen vessel of divine magic.

kent

Is there any lore on why you become one or the other

MikeQ

Possibly? Divine Soul don't need to have divine ancestors. A random goblin could be blessed at birth and that could make them a Divine Soul sorcerer. A random aasimar could be a fighter or wizard.

Similarly, see the difference between Dragonborn (the race) and Draconic Bloodline (the sorcerer subclass)

illustro

01:40

An Aasimar requires a divine lineage (specifically). A divine soul sorcerer does not (they are explicitly called out as having the potential to be made by chance due to their birth aligning with an ancient prophecy.)

kent

Correct. But in the instance both have divine lineage is there any reason why one happened and not the other

Like are Aasimar more likely to be divine soul sorcerers

illustro

Aasimar also require a human lineage somewhere in their ancestry

MikeQ

Aasimar can be whatever class they want. Given their +2 Charisma adjustment, they're a decent choice for a Divine Soul sorcerer, but they're equally a decent choice for Draconic sorcerer or Shadow Magic sorcerer.

illustro

Divine Soul Sorcerers do not, they can be Elves with some Angel lineage in them

It would certainly make sense story wise for an Aasimar to also be a Divine Soul Sorcerer, but they aren't required to be

kent

It's not about requirements. I'm asking why does one happen over the other in lore

Say you have human and angelic lineage. Under both descriptions you could be an Aasimar or a sorcerer, or both.

MikeQ

01:44

No, we just said the opposite of that.

kent

?

illustro

If you are a human with angelic lineage, then you are an Aasimar

kent

Except not in Volos

BESW

D&D's a kitchen sink of "sure that sounds cool, throw it in" and doesn't put much if any energy into justifying how they all co-exist.

kent

It can skip generations

In Volos you could be an Aasimar but your parents are not

MikeQ

01:47

I dunno. Genetics don't make sense in a universe where magic exists.

kent

@BESW I guess you're right.

nitsua60

@JeffreyWitty I don't even think it was a foot in mouth, personally.

On another note: how do you spell that thing when you have your teeth closed, you relax your cheeks and lips, keep your tongue low, exhale, and everything forward of your molars just flaps around erratically?

MikeQ

Sshhhwwwooo

nitsua60

Thbbbbbbbbt would be a raspberry, and this is _________ ?

Maybe Thbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbtbt?

illustro

@nitsua60 english.stackexchange.com/questions/393204/…

you mean that?

MikeQ

01:51

@kent If the celestial attributes can skip generations, then I suppose there's no guarantee of what the outcome is. Maybe they're an aasimar, maybe they're a divine soul sorcerer. Maybe both, maybe neither.

nitsua60

@illustro Holy [redacted]. This site... really, man. Just: wow.

illustro

@nitsua60 iknr

nitsua60

I'm definitely going with "bilabial trill" over "motorboating," as I'm writing to a superior about a (potential) sexual harrassment situation that's going on =\

illustro

If you need a sound based example...the first mp3 from this site: soundsnap.com/tags/lip_flapping

...ah

a sound based answer may not be so appropriate then

BESW

Oof yeah, that's a bilabial trill then.

kent

01:55

@MikeQ I get the feeling that most Aasimar being born from human parents was new 5e lore? In the past Aasimar were descended from other Aasimar?

illustro

But yes, bilabial trill is definitely more appropriate in that situation

...oh dear

It's 2am...bed time!

Akixkisu

@BESW yup.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 arrgh, those are never fun ....

MikeQ

@kent Aasimar were described as having a celestial bloodline. So one of their parents could be a celestial, or an aasimar, or a human, or goblin, as long as they also descended from something celestial.

BESW

3.5, with its dedication to Symmetry For The Sake of Symmetry, had both tieflings and aasimars as humanoids whose ancestry contained a very distant infernal/celestial ancestor, the influence of which was imperceptible in most descendants but would occasionally manifest visibly in one person--that person would be an aasimar or a tiefling.

KorvinStarmast

02:00

@BESW recessive trait?

BESW

4e, in its dedication to throwing out alignment-based mechanics, didn't really do anything with aasimar at all but presented tieflings as the descendants of a small group of humans who had made a multigenerational warlock pact.

kent

Well that has got to suck for Aasimar. The influence could have manifested as spellcasting abilities. But all they got was glowy eyes

BESW

I'd hesitate to use any terms associated with genetics to describe D&D's use of inherited traits. That's one reason I liked 4e's approach to the tiefling; it wasn't a physically passed down trait, it was a sign of a supernaturally inherited relationship.

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Yeah... luckily it's only the second time in my career I've had to deal with this. Unfortunately, it's... well, it exists.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW ok, cool, good point I'd hesitate to use any terms associated with genetics to describe D&D's use of inherited traits

BESW

02:05

@kent Heh. In 3.5, being an aasimar got you elemental resistance, bonus attribute bumps, perception advantages, and a 1/day use of the daylight spell.

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 yeah, another thing we have to deal with, and hopefully your organization has good tools for that ...

nitsua60

@KorvinStarmast Well... a recently retiring mentor of mine said "don't expect $PLACE to ever abandon it's commitment to a strategy of 'blind luck' when it's worked so well for so long." So I'm not holding my breath on there being a good system, rather than an ad-hocracy, to deal with anything =\

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 Nice neologism "adhocracy" - I am adding that to my governmental forms file ...

Example Adhocracy ... your majesty, whence the decree that each peasant shall be issued a single pink bunny rabbit slipper ? to which the answer is "it seemed to us like a good idea, at the time... And the pink lemonade at last year's fete was a success"

kent

@BESW true. And when you consider the low proportion of level 20 spellcasters its not as bad.

KorvinStarmast

I am watching my salt marsh campaign die thanks to the death of a thousand RL cuts to my players ... sigh

Ben

02:11

Afternoon all

MikeQ

G'day! Haven't heard from you in a while, was worried you'd been kidnapped by drop bears.

KorvinStarmast

@Ben Hail, wizard of Aus!

MikeQ

@KorvinStarmast Have you considered making it West Marches style, and run games with whoever attends?

Ben

@KorvinStarmast Well, not exactly a wizard; but that depends on your level of I.T knowledge. To some I'm a wizard, I suppose :P

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ I can, but that means I need to recruit more players and make each session a bit easier to end ... but they all wanted to do the salt marsh thing when we all decided for me to DM. Wen we run with whomever shows up as it is ...

nitsua60

02:13

Could run it "Stomach Lurches" style: set it all on the boat that you've certainly obtained by now and go with the headcanon that any player who's not there, their PC is at the rail.

Ben

@MikeQ Nah, after all the rain they've temporarily retreated to better feeding grounds. When it rains less people come outside

KorvinStarmast

@nitsua60 my son had to drop out due to shift changes at work,

@nitsua60 as a point of fact, tonight they are poised to hit the pirate/smuggler ship ...

Ben

@nitsua60 Our 40K game was a little bit like that: we all worked for an Inquisitor, and so when someone couldn't attend, they were brought in for "another job"

MikeQ

And if a player doesn't show up, well, their character goes on a side mission, possibly in an uncharted part of the dungeon. When they next return, they'll have gained some loot and experience.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ our convention is all pc's are 'passively present' ... we worked out a deal for how that fits ...

.... unlike our ToA campaign, the players do not seem to have someone who likes to keep the journal, and I just stopped doing it as DM. I would post a page, brief summary, and "fill in your PoV on how it went" some inputs, but not all that much

Hot RPG Questions

02:26

9

Q: Do you need to provide Somatic Components when casting from a spell scroll?

The general rules provided in the DMG for Magic Item Scrolls states: Most scrolls are spells stored in written form, [...]. [...] [...] Whatever the nature of the magic contained in a scroll, unleashing the magic requires the user to read the scroll. [...] Unless a scroll's des...

dnd-5e spells spell-components

Ben

02:41

What's a low CR, very aggressive monster?

or "angry"

NautArch

Mephits?

MikeQ

Commoners?

Ben

@MikeQ Lol

I like mephit

MikeQ

Commoners who can access the youtube comment section?

nitsua60

@Ben Once the baby's learned to crawl and pull up, but not walk...?

Ben

02:46

@nitsua60 A 3 year old

nitsua60

The Crazy Nastyass Honey Badger (original narration by Randall)

►

BESW

@Ben 5e, right? Does 5e have fell taints?

Fell taints are very low-level emanations from the Far Realm which heal to full if they successfully perform a coup de grace.

It's mean.

Ben

I like mephit cos they seem small and pop when they die :P

Adeptus

For anyone who likes chainmail things, Firebear Armoury has 20% off at the moment

(note they are located in Australia, so shipping may be high for those of you who are elsewhere)

nitsua60

03:03

I don't know why Youtube decided that after the honeybadger video I'd want to see an old Celebrity Jeopardy video.

But they weren't wrong.

Mark Wells

03:19

@MikeQ Those are known as trolls, and they are CR 5.

Bob Kerman

03:38

@Adeptus they currently dont have any armour for sale :(.

but they do have this for the office; firebear.com.au/store/p285/…

Joel Harmon

04:02

@MarkWells Don't forget the lower CR but less aggressive Whelp Trolls. They hang around regular trolls saying "Whelp, that's just a troll."

Adeptus

04:45

@BobKerman There's a smaller market for armour than for jewellery. They stock more of the things that sell more. (you can always buy the links & DIY...)

@BobKerman Brent Spiner (Data) bought one of their plain ties.

Xirema

Just popping in to share the moment our Fighter tried to pickpocket the Cleric.

trogdor

Lol

Powerdork

05:10

Tread carefully with dimensional travel. Eberron has a lot of assumptions that are challenged in other settings; for instance, the provability of gods' existence would rattle any warmblooded citizen of the Five Nations. Consider nonchalantly imposing the Eberron items you want as a part of the setting you want to use them in. If the story you want to tell is a story about planar bootlegging, then question whether Eberron's the best setting to tell it with; whether D&D's the best system to tell it with. — Powerdork 1 min ago

Am I answering in the comments?

Akixkisu

@Powerdork yes.

@Powerdork would also be good to source that, and expand your reasoning.

Hot RPG Questions

05:29

4

Q: If I use the starting wealth rolls of my class, do I keep any remaining money left over?

If I use the starting wealth rolls of my class, do I keep any remaining money left over after I buy equipment? In D&D 5e you can roll the 4d4 × 10 to determine starting gold, forgoing any equipment your class and background gets. This is not up for question. What is up for question is whether...

dnd-5e character-creation treasure

Ben

06:02

Could someone quickly give me a level 1 base attribute levels for 5e? I.e. for Str, Dex, Con, etc. - but don;t worry about which is which or what class. Just need the scores for a primary stat, a dump stat, and all the rest.

Miniman

@Ben 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8

Ben

I was thinking more optimised. Lol

Miniman

It doesn't really get any more optimized than that.

If you mean less optimized, I don't remember off the top of my head.

Ben

I did just find this. The grid is an interesting tool

So that one suggests an array of 16, 13, 11, 10, 9, 8

Miniman

You can only get that by rolling, though.

Ben

06:17

You can get an 18 or a 3 by rolling..?

You're saying those scores exceed the point values in the character creation "Point-buy" system?

Miniman

Yeah, you can never point buy above a 15.

Ben

Ah

Miniman

But yeah, technically the "default" array is 15,14,13,12,10,8.

Ben

06:33

Ahhh ok

That makes more sense

kviiri

06:51

@illustro Basically they said specifically that one component type is excluded. That's evidence in favor that they meant that one type specifically, since they could've more easily said that all component types are excluded. That's the principle of exceptions proving the rules, and while it's not an official principle in DnD, it's abundantly used in natural language in general and I'd assume that's also the authors' intent here.

Eg. assume you have a car and you can't park your car just anywhere you please, but need to look for an eligible spot. You see a sign saying "Parking prohibited from Monday to Friday" --- wouldn't one assume parking is allowed on weekends, because they went through the extra effort to specify a range excluding weekends?

Similarly, if they go through to trouble of specifying one can cast a spell without providing material components, yes, I think it is a natural reading that it is indeed meant to supercede the general rule that casting a spell through a magic item requires no components, and therefore the other two components are still required.

BESW

07:08

Kickstarter: The Magical Repair Shop. A gentle, low-stakes story game by Ed Turner & Ash Cheshire about arcane artisans who carefully repair & restore heirloom magic items.

Ben

So to explain my last few odd questions: I am making a set of rules for "Wizard Duels"; based on the idea that "Wizards don't fight; they compare spells and diplomatically decide the outcome, and the winner".

I started just doing a bit of a dummy thing, but it developed into a legitimate idea that (could) use the Spell Cards they now sell, to make a card game.

Akixkisu

07:28

@kviiri so spell scrolls consume spell slots? Weird argument.

kviiri

@Akixkisu No, I didn't say such. Why would they?

Akixkisu

@kviiri they are parking on Thursday.

kviiri

@Akixkisu I don't understand what you mean

There is a general rule that magic items that allow casting spells do not require slots. This can be overridden by specific item rules, but spell scroll doesn't. There is also a general rule that magical items that allow casting spells do not require components. This can also be overridden by specific item rules, which I say spell scroll does by opting to single out material components. I don't see what the connection you're implying is.

Akixkisu

@kviiri the section that establishes that spells cast from scrolls do not require any components and spell slots is the same phrase. The argument specifies material components, not exemption from somatic or verbal components or spell slots by that implication.

kviiri

@Akixkisu Exception proving the rule is the natural reading. You're free to disagree but these are the things where natural language does not conform to naive logic

Whether they're in the same phrase is irrelevant. They're distinct things.

Akixkisu

07:39

I agree.

I think that the whole argument is weird.

kviiri

I mean similarly one could claim that the "parking prohibited Mon-Fri" sign doesn't actually say you are allowed to park on Saturday or Sunday, but I think most people trying to leverage such (eg. to charge extra parking fines) would be subject to popular contempt as well as probably lose in court

Akixkisu

Especially since naive logic is used for the inference constructing an artifically specific rule.

Since it only specifies Parking not on Wednesday.

Not parking not an Monday through Friday.

kviiri

Well say you have a zone where the signs on entrance say "No parking Mon-Fri", and within that zone a smaller zone that says "No parking on Wednesday". I would assume I was free to park in the interior zone on a Thursday.

There are of course other factors to this, basically IRL the more care people have taken to outline the exceptions to a rule the more strongly they practically reinforce the rule.

Akixkisu

There is no zone that say no parking Mon-Fri. THere is a zone that says, Park everywhere unless specified otherwise. And a small zone that says no parking on Wednesdays.

kviiri

That's not equivalent to a situation we're treating. In our case, the explicitly stated allowances of a spell scroll are a subset of the explicitly stated allowances general to magic items.

Akixkisu

07:46

Which is parking everywhere.

Then you make the case that there is something more specific, not parking on given day.

kviiri

But I didn't really mean the parking metaphor to be taken to represent this particular problem, but rather the general principle of exceptions proving the rules.

Akixkisu

Generally a totally valid approach.

Often sound, not in this case, however.

kviiri

Why do you not consider it sound here, then?

Akixkisu

It is a strong assertion that is not backed-up by lines of text.

We have two instances

kviiri

Well, in a sense. "Authors are using the language the way everyone else is using it" is a strong assumption but it's a pretty reasonable one to make isn't it?

Akixkisu

07:49

p 139 and 200.

200 re-iterates with emphasis that an exception applies.

kviiri

@Akixkisu I mean to make this equivalent to the spell scroll case, shouldn't the smaller zone be "Parking allowed on Wednesdays"?

In which case I would assume that it's not allowed on other days, barring further evidence.

Akixkisu

Generally we start from a point where there is no component cost, no spell slots - no restrictions (in that department).

kviiri

@Akixkisu That's where I disagree. If they wanted to repeat the general rule, they could've repeated that with less effort. Instead, they chose to single out a particular type of component.

Akixkisu

Here you say something more specific applies.

That introduces restrictions.

I'd like to see them spelled out.

Because the general rules says that this can be the case.

But that it is spelled out when it is that case.

So where does it do that?

Mark Wells

@kviiri Exactly that. If no components were required, then this would be completely redundant. We generally assume that rules text is intended to do something.

kviiri

07:53

It doesn't, explicitly. Just like the "Parking allowed on Wednesdays" sign doesn't explicitly say parking is not allowed on the other days.

Akixkisu

And the general rule says, that iff that is the case it is spelled out explicitly, which is the whole argument.

kviiri

Hence "natural reading".

Akixkisu

If it didn't say that it is going to be explicitly spelled out, I'd agree with that reasoning.

Mark Wells

@Akixkisu I guarantee you that no D&D rule says "iff". That's the problem, you're trying to approach this like it's formal logic.

Akixkisu

But the natrual rewadiong doesn't allow that exceptuion.

You argue that the implicit reading when it specifies explicit reading as a condition is more natural.

kviiri

07:58

Where is that specified?

Akixkisu

"doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise."

kviiri

There are many ways to "say otherwise".

I agree it's very unclear though.

I mean, suppose for the sake of the argument that the spell scroll's description said "...cast its spell without providing any material components that cost up to 100 gp". Would you allow someone to cast Wish with it without providing the expensive components?

err, wish doesn't have material components. What spell was I thinking of

Let's say, True Resurrection that costs 25k worth of diamonds and holy water.

Akixkisu

You could cast the spell if you provided the 25k of diamonds, the spell scroll takes care of the holy water.

kviiri

@Akixkisu Okay. Why do I need to provide the diamonds?

Akixkisu

nvm, you could simply cast the spell.

kviiri

08:08

I think that kinda proves my point regarding natural reading? :P

But I do see that there are different thresholds for when things start looking like exceptions.

Akixkisu

Again, differnt argument that doesn't apply to that case.

kviiri

I fail to see how it doesn't apply, but I think we're basically looking at this from angles that simply can't reconcile

Akixkisu

I think I'd be a much better argument if you argued that components are either M, S, or V. And that M specifies not V or S.

But you'd have to actually do that for it to be compelling.

(Which you can easily do by citiing PHB 203).

kviiri

I mean, we're arguing DnD rules, I generally assume to people know their way around the basics. Never crossed my mind that someone might not know what the three component types were

I mean, someone in the scope of such discussion.

Akixkisu

I don't agree with the argument but it is sound.

If argued that way, this way it makes that logical leap.

kviiri

08:20

That's not an argument, it's just me explaining why I didn't specify things. I'm on chat, not writing an academic paper

Akixkisu

Which is an issue of natrual reading (which when you argue that way you sacrifice for naive logic).

Sure.

kviiri

I don't understand what you're saying, or trying to say, anymore. And I don't really see any benefit in continuing this discussion. You're not going to convince me, I'm not going to convince you, no one is going to be convinced by the outcome of the discussion, and while I like debating rules for sport every now and then I think we're well past the point where this is enjoyable to me at least.

Akixkisu

I mean we are done, anyway. I agree with that ruling, but I think that the answer on particular makes a logical leap which you think is trivial and I don't think is trivial.

Not your case, the actual answer of the q.

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illustro

10:09

@kviiri a better metaphor for this situation is a general sign that says, you enter Cologne, "Free Parking in all of Cologne every day", and then a sign on a single street in Cologne that says "Free Parking on Wednesdays". By your logic, we should infer that this sign mean that there is no free parking on any day except Wednesday.

An equally logical and valid conclusion in the parking metaphor is that the street specific sign is redundant Essentially, you are making the assumption that sign makers (or in our case rules writers) never include redundant information. In real life, and in the rules text, redundant information is included in a lot of situations (including magic item descriptions).

Akixkisu

10:24

@kviiri A specification of up to value specifies that up to value and not more than value. Material components do not relate in that way to somatic or verbal components. Disregard the annoyed "nvm" comment.

@illustro especially if the rules are separated by 60 pages of text.

kviiri

11:05

@illustro I would indeed infer so. There's a reason why that text is added on the sign.

But as I said, I am done discussing this. I don't think I'm going to convince either of you.

The specific manner of redundancy matters to me, and it matters to you too. We just have different thresholds.

illustro

That's fine, after reading your conversation with Akixkisu I get your position more than I did before. I don't agree with it, but I at least understand where it is coming from now.

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Q: Can the target of the Dissonant Whispers spell choose to use its reaction to move if it succeeds on the save?

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illustro

I think we have different approaches to interpreting redundant information. You start from a position of "the information must be relevant because it was specifically included (and perhaps specifically changed), and thus we must infer things from it's addition". I start from a position of "it doesn't contradict the other information I have, and is thus simply a redundant restating of information I already have"

Basically you require proof positive that it is redundant, whereas I require proof positive that it isn't redundant

Those two starting positions aren't reconcilable

BESW

11:24

Lenses are not inherently mutually exclusive, they're contextual. There's no point in talking about street signs when the subject is Wizards of the Coast's game text, it's like comparing cucumbers and sea cucumbers.

kviiri

Yeah, I only did it to demonstrate the general principle of exceptions making rules. But as it often happens, such comparisons tend to get a bit of a life of their own

BESW

To effectively parse the implications in a passage of text that's been isolated from the larger work, re-integrate it. What patterns of communication does Wizards of the Coast use in 5e? Do they consistently repeat general rules in feature text, or do features consistently only mention rules if they're exceptions?

In my limited exposure to 5e text, I have not seen signs of care taken to standardize their voice or remain consistent in the ways that they communicate information, and thus would find any argument either way to be on shaky ground without evidence of consistency in how they handle general vs exception rules in this particular kind of text.

AncientSwordRage

Random thought: Would using 3d4 (or similar dice roll techniques) + a point buy system work for determining 5E stats? You could allow re-rolling but then penalise the total number of points

BESW

@AncientSwordRage Hmm. What's the purpose?

What change at the table are you hoping to see from this modification?

AncientSwordRage

@AncientSwordRage my main thought is that you have to make the rate good going from 3-9 whilst still hampering going over ~15

@BESW a balance of randomisation from dice and consistency from point buy - it's also a nice thought experiment based on the concept of mulliganning

BESW

11:33

I like the way it'd smooth out the curve.

If it were me, I wouldn't add mulligans, it'd run counter to the goal of consistency.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW do you think 1 point to boost by 3 from 3 to 6, and then 1 point to boost by 2 for 6-9? How does point buy work again

@BESW possibly? I mean if you can 'spend' 3 points on rerolling a 3 it might smooth better than having to bump points in

BESW

It's been... [maths] eight years since I did point buy, sorry, I haven't kept the numbers in my head.

AncientSwordRage

what I dislike about rolling is that theres a real (i.e. non-zero) chance of getting a 3-6 in a stat which seems unplayable (to me at least)

BESW

What about leaving out point buy altogether and just do 3d4+6?

AncientSwordRage

@BESW that removes the agency of point buy

BESW

11:37

Ah, so point buy is for agency as well as consistency.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW yes

I think that may have been my original intention, apologies for confabulating

BESW

No worries. I hope somebody else can help out, I'm ruined for maths right now.

AncientSwordRage

@BESW oh no.

doppelgreener

@Carcer you can only get it the way around you want it if you take the time to check where the label is and then make sure that's on the inside. sometimes it was already there, but it still wasn't the way around you wanted it until you checked.

BESW

I'm currently hip-deep in text phrasing for my next game system.

illustro

11:40

@AncientSwordRage are you assuming that they would roll for stats "down the line" (ie Str, then Con, etc) or be able to assign the scores post rolling and point buy to specific abilities?

AncientSwordRage

@illustro ¯_(ツ)_/¯

BESW

@doppelgreener Some bags have the label printed on, and it fades and rubs off over time.

AncientSwordRage

@illustro I think it depends on if you get players to determine race/class first

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage is that necessarily important? it would work fine if i pick race and/or class anytime either side of rolling

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener I mean if I picked a calls that needs Stat X and I roll poorly in it I'll feel worse than if I roll first then pick a class/race that works on those stats

Carcer

11:45

@doppelgreener that sounds like a... Bag of Schröding

9

AncientSwordRage

@BESW exciting

@BESW chicken-dinner.com/5e/5e-point-buy.html

doppelgreener

@AncientSwordRage when i have to roll exactly for each stat (like "roll to find out your int", not "roll for six stats and then assign them arbitrarily") then yeah that system needs to have race/class picked second. in a system where i can assign stats arbitrarily, it should be fine to let the player choose whatever race & class they like while also rolling stats.

i.e. race/class/stats would be its own step in creation. "roll for stats; no re-rolls. also, pick your race and your class. no specific order needed. once you have these three worked out, move on to the next step."

AncientSwordRage

@doppelgreener Agreed

BESW

@AncientSwordRage yeah, I revived an old draft for Pleasant Dream Jam and I'm working on integrating the latest batch of feedback.

illustro

Part of your reasoning for the system was agency. I was curious if you were curtailing agency in some other way and this was a way to reintroduce agency into the situation, or if you were planning to add more agency into the situation

Carcer

12:01

I waste my best puns on this audience

illustro

I appreciated the pun Carcer

AncientSwordRage

@Carcer this puny audience

@illustro it's more thought experiment for the sake of it

Carcer

@illustro thanks

doppelgreener

A pun walks into a bar and ten people die. Pun in, ten dead.

6

BESW

@Carcer I appreciated it.

Carcer

12:07

@BESW also thanks but I worry I am setting a precedent where I must individually thank everyone who appreciates my jokes

BESW

@Carcer I would appreciate that.

Carcer

my jokes are enjoyed by literally three, maybe four people at a time. I can't possibly find the time to thank all of them

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doppelgreener

@Carcer I appreciated it too :D

Carcer

@doppelgreener thanks doppelgreener but you're the last one

if anyone else appreciated my pun please keep it to yourself

I really ought to be working

doppelgreener

12:14

lol

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Q: Are all questions that are even tangentially related to Computer Based RPGs or computer games off topic for this stack?

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RevenantBacon

OK, I'm gonna say, I disagree with the closing of that question.

I've read it and it seems fine.

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