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4:00 PM
I like how they gave caster poor BAB to try to keep them away from using weapons but then realized that it would make them horrible at hitting with their spells so they added touch AC.
 
@MikeQ (I liked your answer on that meta that you chose to remove; I applaud your efforts to be of assistance)
 
Clerics have always been better than fighters, to be fair.
@Yuuki If you were looking for a self-buff transmuter, I think Sorcerer is the way to go
 
@RevenantBacon Given the spell lists, I'd say that magus could serve as fighter/evoker, fighter/abjurer, or fighter/transmuter, in AD&D2 terms. Bard could serve as fighter/illusionist or fighter/enchanter*, and Summoner could serve as fighter/conjurer.
 
@RevenantBacon Eh, I wanted to play around with the Transmutation school specialization's physical attribute enhancement.
 
I dunno, bards don't get a huge number of good evocation spells. Did you mean enchanter?
 
4:04 PM
Using a different class would've defeated the purpose.
 
@RevenantBacon Yes, whoops. Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed my message.
 
@Yuuki If that's what you were going for, I can see why it was an issue. 1/2 BAB is going to make it... tough to hit an enemy without touch attacks.
 
@NautArch das troo too. I'll try it again near end of June, or maybe september.
 
I gotta say, that's definitely one of the things that 5e has in its favor. Everyone's attack bonus progresses at the same rate, but martial classes just get more attacks as class features.
 
@JohnP and if they have a car on their lot that you want and it's been sitting there awhile, they're going to be desperate to get rid of it.
it's literally costing them money
 
4:08 PM
I'm also trying to figure out who I want to place in my party. Harrim is right out because he's super depressing.
@RevenantBacon I also like that 5e doesn't have iterative attacks.
 
@Yuuki As many bards as possible.
 
@MikeQ Well, Linzi is a given.
And I need to facilitate her crush on Valerie so there's one more.
 
I like having Jaetheal (because her stats are super duper OP) Linzi, because she can't actually die, and the rest is always a bunch of custom Mercs.
 
@NautArch that is how my brother in law saved 13000 off sticker two months ago on a 2019 pick up truck with 3 miles on it. The thing had been on the lot for over a year in Houston.
 
In yesterday's session, our bard convinced a ghost to stop existing by lying to them.
 
4:09 PM
Oh god, I hate having Valerie in my party
 
@NautArch I used this to my advantage as well, not only was the car I bought sitting on the lot for a while but they gave me the line that it was getting a lot of interest. I knew this likely wasn't true for a couple reasons 1) they had the care on a riser which was a huge hassle to get the car down off of 2) the brakes showed that it hadn't been driven in quite a while. So I bargained them down quite a bit.
 
@MikeQ that sounds like a fun session. :)
 
I kinda wanna get a cheat mod and just swap around Valerie's STR and CON.
Think that would make things much better.
 
@Yuuki are you amd Mike playing the same pre genned character / party?
 
huh?
 
4:11 PM
@KorvinStarmast No, I just recommended a bunch of bards because that would be more entertaining
 
@MikeQ ha! Tell us the story!
 
I have not played the Kingmaker CRPG nor will I
 
@Yuuki I am misunderstanding the conversation, sorry.
 
@NautArch It was a very eventful session in an Iron Gods campaign, so there may be spoilers. I'll come up with a spoiler-free version.
 
@MikeQ I just got that pun ... slow today, must check to see if decaf was in the pot ...
Heh, on this cover of Iron Gods it looks like the main figure is wielding a chain saw.
 
4:15 PM
That's because they are wielding a chain saw. Iron Gods is the tech-themed campaign. With robots. And separate technology rules.
@NautArch There's an area that is famously haunted by a ghost. The ghost has unresolved business, but said business is long dead and buried thousands of miles away. The ghost is also unkillable. So based on our intel, there's no plausible way to resolve this challenge. Enter bard, stage left.
As the ghost charges us, the bard uses a readied action. To bluff. And says that we recently spoke with the ghost's friends, and tidied up their unresolved business for them. Logically it makes no sense, but the rolled total was over a 30.
Ghost thanks us profusely and ascends to some divine plane. The locals then write down this miracle (?) in their holy history books.
 
that's awesome!
 
4:30 PM
@MikeQ So the ghost was unkillable but it wasn't unskillable.
 
Hum, sorry to interrupt but, do you think giving a 1 dice portent (like the diviner subclass of the wizard D&D 5e) to a whole race is op? I was so sure it was ok, but looking at it after a while I think it's too much? :S
 
@Helwar Yeah, too much. That's going to be a tough thing to balance.
 
@Helwar Hm... is that all they get? It's kind of like advantage on one check throughout the day.
 
@DavidCoffron Not like advantage at all.
 
They have +2dex and +1 wither wis, cha or int
 
4:33 PM
As a comparison point, goblins get a partial Cunning Action
 
I also think it's too much now... Maybe limit it to their own rolls instead of affecting the rolls of other creatures?
 
@Helwar What's the theme you're going for?
 
@MikeQ They also have disadvantage on using heavy weapons.
 
@NautArch And the partial Cunning Action isn't all they get, they get Fury of the Small too
 
Their race has ties with the dream plane and some have a small amount of prescience @DavidCoffron
 
4:34 PM
What else does this custom race get?
 
@Helwar Could a lucky die serve that role? Then it is very close to advantage on a single roll
 
@DavidCoffron lucky die would be much better.
 
@NautArch It's better to have lucky die than die lucky.
 
@MikeQ THey get +2 dex and +1 to either wis, cha or int.
@DavidCoffron so one roll a day they can choose to reroll?
 
@JohnP If you're born to hang, you'll never drown.
 
4:36 PM
@Helwar That's easier to balance around (although they could probably get a bit more than just that and ASIs)
 
Makes sense
 
The hobgoblin feature might be worth taking a look at for race feature that improves rolls
 
@Helwar only for their rolls, or can they use it on someone else?
 
@Someone_Evil gonna open Xanathar then
 
@Helwar Hobgoblin is in Volo's Guide to Monsters
 
4:37 PM
@DavidCoffron yeah, and honestly a lot of those monstrous races don't really seem as balanced.
 
@NautArch well the portent was on themselves or creatures they could see
@DavidCoffron stupid me, I also have it. Saved me to look through the wrong book XD
 
@Helwar Yeah so if the one lucky die could reroll yours, or force an enemy to reroll it would be like 1/3 as good as Variant Human (with an additional +1 to Dex and not as much choice on ASIs)
 
@DavidCoffron but might also get things like darkvision, etc.
 
@NautArch That's why I asked about what else the race gets; sounds like the "just portent" was what it was before. But switching to lucky means the race has room for one or two other minor features while staying balanced
 
@NautArch - Zomg, the last dealer's internet manager just sent me an email asking what they can do to close the deal...good thing I'm past the major outrage.
 
4:39 PM
@NautArch Oh yeah they have Darkvision, didn't even think about telling you as it's almost omnipresent
 
@Helwar What's the full race stat block? I think @DavidCoffron is right in that we need to see the big picture.
 
ok gimme a sec
have to translate to english
 
@NautArch Or at least the big paragraph.
 
@JohnP tell them exactly what you want and walk away again if you don't get it. Odds are...you will.
 
@NautArch Nah, I saw the credit score they assigned and the valuation on the trade, definitely too far apart. But, I'll send him something.
 
4:41 PM
It has way more than "just portent", but it was the most defining factor
 
@Helwar Gotcha
 
@JohnP As long as you've done your research and are confident in your numbers, make it a hard line. If they want the car off their lot, they'll make the deal.
 
@Helwar So like a subclass-less Elf with Premonition and Tail instead of Fey Ancestry
 
Subrace 1 is: +1 Int, +1 language, +1 tool proficiency
Subrace 2 is: +1 wis, either mask of the wild or fleet or foot (choice)
Subrace 3 is : +1 cha, prestidigitation cantrip, 1/day cure wounds
 
4:45 PM
Okay, so: 2 skills proficiencies (acrobatics and perception), similar trance function but also with added ration, and then the rolling bit.
 
@DavidCoffron was translating the subclasses, but yeah mostly
 
Plus the subrace stuff.
Do you guys track rations?
 
It felt ok when I was doing it, but now that I'm looking into it it might be too much yeah u_U
 
I think it would be balanced with the lucky die version of Premonition and only one of the two proficiencies at first glance. Getting a second proficiency pushes it above elves imo
 
@NautArch While they are in civilized lands no, they just substract an amount of money when they leave. Out in the wild yeah
 
4:46 PM
@Helwar You have a deep connection to the Boeing 787?
 
@DavidCoffron gotcha
 
@Helwar okay, just making sure if it's a relevant mechanic.
 
@Yuuki I... don't get it? haha
 
@Helwar The 787 is also called the Boeing 787 Dreamliner.
 
I could do without the Keen senses, to be even more different to elves, and leave the tail proficiency
 
4:48 PM
And under Premonition, you've stated that there's a deep connection to the Dreams Plane.
 
yeah yeah, I got it now
it's still a bad pun... but I can't complain I do worse
Side question... How many of you use darkvision correctly?
I just noticed, after years of playing this silly game, that even with dark vision you see as in dim light, and that means disadvantage on rolls?
 
@Helwar just disdadvantage on vision-based perception checks.
not all rolls.
i think...
 
yeah yeah
but attacks are perception based, aren't they?
 
@Helwar nope. attacks are attacks. Perception checks are an ability check.
 
hum... ok. Then it's not so bad
and still gives light a reason to be xD
Unless your group had a Human, Dragonborn or Halfling, bringing light was useless :/
 
4:55 PM
@Helwar Also remember that it has a range. Your Darkvision races may be blind to creatures 61+ feet away
 
That I did do correctly
last time I used it (it was a long ago) I was pestering with drow attacking from outside their view range
 
@Helwar well you also have to keep in mind that if the drow is also in darkness 121+ feet away, the monster may be unable to see them (since monsters also have ranges on Darkvision)
 
@KorvinStarmast Thanks for the comment. That was a good question to raise.
 
@DavidCoffron yup
 
Light's not useless with darkvision, remember that darkvision only lets you see as if dim light, which is good enough for fighting but imposes disadvantage on perception checks
even if you have darkvision, if you're not being stealthy yourself you benefit from a light source
 
4:58 PM
@Carcer That's what I was talking about. I just noticed that >_<
 
@Helwar ALso noticed in my choice of fire genasi for my wizard that his dark vision is shades of red rather than shades of grey.
 
Wait it is? gonna check
 
@doppelgreener also would like to tip the old chapeau for your answer made in peacekeeping mode. :-)
 
the fire genasi has that flavour to it yes
 
yes it is! coolio
 
5:00 PM
sorry I waded in there without reading the prior conversation
my apologies
 
no apologies needed :)
 
@NautArch I hadn't noticed that tidbit. Interesting.
 
@NautArch I can't decide whether 50 shades of red would be better or worse than 50 shades of grey.
 
Thermal vision is always better, you can see what is hotter!
 
@Helwar well back in my day there was none of this darkvision business and we were all seeing infrared to begin with
 
5:02 PM
@Yuuki Hm. Considering the "grey" part of the title is a double entendre about the morality of black and white, I expect that "red" would probably refers to the stages of anger, so it would probably be worse (assuming it keeps the sexual theme)
 
@Carcer Yup. I remember that
 
Hm... Are there any light sources that go more than 60 feet (so as to be better at seeing enemies than Darkvision 60). I know the bullseye lantern but that's specifically in a cone so not perfectly useful
 
@KorvinStarmast i really hope it's helpful
 
In my setting I have decided that any race can be planetouched (instead of humans being the base for everything). Rules wise, I just use tiefling/genasi/aasimar and that's all. But with smaller races, stapling "small" in there doesn't unbalance it, does it?
 
@Helwar I don't think being small mechanically gives you anything except disadvantages, does it?
 
5:05 PM
@Helwar Not really. It is kind of minor in terms of what it affects. They can't use heavy weapons without disadvantage and can squeeze in smaller spaces
 
@DavidCoffron Iirc, when you have a font of light, your darkvision extends after the light ends?
 
@Helwar Not in 5e
 
@DavidCoffron hm? Darkvision isn't spoiled by light.
 
It's a 3.5 thing?
 
it was the case in <=2e that the presence of other light sources spoiled infravision but as far as I'm aware from 3e on darkvision can happily overlap normal light
 
5:06 PM
@Carcer No, but say you want to see someone 70 feet away, Darkvision 60 wouldn't do it, but light wouldn't either unless there is a light source I'm missing (apart from the cone of a bullseye lantern)
 
ohhh
I misunderstood you
yeah the radius of darkvision is just from you, it doesn't start where the darkness is
 
If you aren't concerned about perception, Darkvision 60 is better than any light source from what I can tell
 
I dunno where I got this, but I thought if you had darkvision 60, and a light source of 60, you see normal within the light, and then extend 60' of darkvision
It might be homebrew from my old DM that I take for granted? Or an old edition thing?
 
@Helwar yeah, I'm not sure where that's from exactly. 3e does have low-light vision, which allows certain races to see several times further in poor lighting conditions than normal
but I'm pretty sure it didn't have any rule that let darkvision start at the edge of some other light's reach, and darkvision didn't exist pre-3e.
 
well I call it darkvision, it was low light vision then as you said
 
5:10 PM
@Carcer That's how it worked in 4e, kind of, but 4e didn't have ranges. You just have a type of sight
 
remember I'm translating from spanish
it was called "Vision en la oscuridad" then too
 
In 4e, darkvision would let you see normally in all darkness, so you had literally no benefit to light
But low-light vision meant that within the range of your light (including dimly lit), you'd see normally, but in full darkness you couldn't see.
 
It extended the low-light range of your light source, didn't it?
 
Ah! A driftglobe is a reusable source of greater than 60 feet light. 60 feet bright and 60 feet dim
 
sheesh I might have to go up and unstash my 3.5 books :P
 
5:13 PM
@Helwar 4e didn't have ranges. It was on at any distance
 
@Adeptus Have you ever played How to Host a Dungeon? I've found it works nicely at the empire/state level, too.
 
Oh I meant 3.5
I liked 4e but didn't play it long enough to memorize anything
 
@DavidCoffron you could also attach a light source to a familiar
 
@Carcer Ooh! or dancing lights. That's a ranged light source (albeit only 10 feet of dim light)
Interesting.... darkness will dispel all four lights if it overlaps with just one of them
 
@DavidCoffron since it only gets you dim light I figure it's a non-starter for these specific purposes
oh no you can have them up to 120ft away
yes alright that's still potentially helpful
 
5:19 PM
@Carcer Yeah but the coverage isn't close to comparable to the light spell (even if you ignore the dim instead of part-dim/part-bright). It's like a net of 1/4 the area (assuming 2D, even less in 3D) covered if you add up all the lights. Definitely only good if you really need to see something far away
 
@KorvinStarmast I also complimented her on her excellent answer.
 
Imagine the scene of an army of swordmages preparing to siege an evil castle, when a wave of arrows soars overhead of them all casting the battlefield into darkness as the light spells illuminating the area around them are all dispelled by a darkness cast on each arrow. Definitely a waste of those spellslots on part of the evil wizards since the swordmages can recast light for free, but for intimidation that does nicely
 
@DavidCoffron And the army of swordmages made the ground tremble, shouting as one "LET THERE BE LIGHT!", and the battlefield promptly gleamed with the light of a thousand spells...
 
@Yuuki For someone who likes large-scale computing, I'd go with 50 Blades of Cray
 
@JohnP Man I wish there were good group-battle mechanics/siege mechanics in 5e; they make cool stories.
 
5:29 PM
@DavidCoffron Sounds like a great 3rd party sourcebook idea..
 
@DavidCoffron Have you tried Kingdoms and Warfare yet? (Oh, no, you haven't. Just remembered it's not out for a while. Stupid KS-funding makes me think I already bought the thing....)
 
@kviiri Frontier
Projected to compute at a speed of 1.5 exaflops (Exaflop is a quintillion double precision computations a second)
 
@JohnP You mean the game company?
 
@nitsua60 Would you like to play a game?
Heh. No, the Frontier is the next gen supercomputer coming supposedly in 2021. Joint between AMD and Cray.
 
I was just going to check whether Cray is still doing the biz. I'm hopelessly out of touch with traditional supercomputing.
 
5:35 PM
@JohnP I once had a dream that I was in Saw XIII, and I was trying to look up on Wikipedia the plot of Saw XIII so that I could avoid/get out of the traps... but you can't read in dreams! So frustrating!
 
@kviiri "We Marveled At Our Own Magnificence As We Gave Birth To Ai"
 
It's all cloud this, cloud that, rent a datacenter from Amazon or Google or such.
@JohnP I have a love for a few algorithms despite them not being always the optimal choices --- and for AI, it's MCTS.
 
@kviiri Cloud is just renting someone else's problems hardware
 
@JohnP I work in the biz, I sure know that :P
 
@kviiri MCTs? Medium Chain Triglycerides?
 
5:37 PM
@DavidCoffron did you try Matt Colville's version?
 
@JohnP Monte Carlo Tree Search. It's genius, really.
AlphaGo used it, iirc.
(heavily augmented with neural networks)
 
@kviiri Oh... python, right?
I've honestly done very little with machine learning.
 
@JohnP I mean, it's an algorithm. You can implement it in ~any language you like, or even pen and paper if you're careful and don't fear hours and hours of manual computation :>
MCTS isn't machine learning (in the traditional sense), I'd say it's a weird mongrel between traditional game AI methods like minimax and fancy self-teaching systems.
 
> don't fear hours and hours of manual computation :>
@kviiri You.... do know what chat you're in, right?
 
The basic premise of MCTS is that from a given situation, both players randomly making moves until the game ends will give a decent idea on whether the situation is a good or a bad one.
It can be reinforced to "eventually" converge towards the minimax solution by carefully choosing which branches of the game-tree to explore, treating it as a multiarmed bandit problem.
 
5:45 PM
@NautArch I had to ... sorry.
 
Multiarmed bandit problem? Just stay out of melee range.
 
@MikeQ Maybe there's better rewards at melee range.
 
@KorvinStarmast I have not.
 
@kviiri Type V demon / Maralith ...
 
@KorvinStarmast pluto may not be a planet:P
but love the do bears actually poop in the woods?!
 
5:47 PM
@DavidCoffron I reviewed it when I got the PDF, and our group has yet to get into a battle that big ....
@NautArch heh, when the ruling came in a few years ago "well not really a planet" I felt as though I had lost a child ...
... and the punch line to a few jokes ...
 
@KorvinStarmast - I know you know what I just commented about pluto, but I'm trying to amuse myself this morning.
 
@JohnP I would never use comments to drop in a joke, except the times that I do ...
 
@KorvinStarmast Heretic is a bit strong, no? I'm just the messenger. :p
 
6:05 PM
Has anyone here bought one of those Casper mattresses?
 
@KorvinStarmast Monstrous Manual (2e) states that they hibernate.
 
@JohnP Which really makes the answer off now.
 
@NautArch - You can remove the comment, I edited out that part. It was a misreading at first, and the phrasing was off.
 
@JohnP consider it done.
May want to clean up the last paragraph, too.
 
@NautArch I think it's good now. And thus I creep slowly closer to 10k.
 
6:16 PM
@JohnP I'm always wary of the "do what you want" lines because that's always available.
but that's a personal thing with me
 
@NautArch True, but since there is no 5e lore that establishes it, you'll get some player that says "But..."
 
@JohnP good enough for me. +1
 
oh man... my uncle's partner had an anaphylactic reaction and is back in ICU...going to need to go by hospital on way home :(
 
Ow :( best of luck to them!
 
@JohnP :( Does this happen often?
 
6:28 PM
@NautArch No, but he's older than my uncle by abt 20 years (almost 80 now) and has been having a lot of problems recently, this is the latest episode. He's been in hospital about a week now, I'm guessing his body chemistry is so messed up that he reacted to a pain med in a new way.
 
oh, man. I'm sorry.
 
Tempted to ask on the owlbear cub question if he hibernates.
 
Should the owlbear hibernation question be rolled back? Incorporating your answers seems...bad.
 
@NautArch Yeah, based on my past medical experience, he's in a downward spiral. :( This will tear up my uncle bad, he's been with him for ~35 years, and somewhat estranged from the family (Grandpa, his dad, was an extreme 'phobe).
@NautArch It does tend to invalidate teh answers. "I got the answer I wanted, but let me ask this, in spite of these sources, do they hibernate or not?"
 
Yep, I think answer incorporation is generally a bad idea. Except maybe if the answer makes bad assumptions and the question needs to be clarified, but in that case the question should've maybe been put on hold in between
 
6:34 PM
Weirdly, it also seems like they'd read the entry and missed it.
which i guess isn't that odd
 
Yeah rolling back is a good call. Do they just want more evidence? Explanation why all other sources don't mention it?
Or maybe just trying to fix a flub up in their question (overlooking the answer)
 
I think it was to fix that they missed the text. but I may be reading too much into it.
 
6:50 PM
@JohnP cool, looks like you have an answer in the hopper!
 
@KorvinStarmast @JohnP I also really wanted to continue that comment thread with "Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!" but it seemed like it was totally unnecessary and possibly really frustrating to the answerer.
BUt i'll say it here.
NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION
 
@NautArch yeah, I was being a bit silly.
 
loved every line of it :P
not surprisingly, the encounter builder limits you to content you actually have and not shared with you via a campaign on dndbeyond.
but i'm also really liking the encounter builder
 
I couldn't help myself. I asked if the owlbear cublet hibernates... :p
 
@JohnP only a...small amount
 
6:56 PM
groans and seeks a jar of honey
 
@NautArch Huh. I'll have to give that a little consideration.
 
@JohnP okay, but don't sleep on it. I'd like an answer.
 
@NautArch Small wonder. That kind of thing will keep you up at night.
 
Votes to reopen this?
 
7:15 PM
@KorvinStarmast - I'm tempted to respond on your sedative comment by shifting movies, to wit: "Give him a SEDAGIVE?!?"
 
Does anybody know if there's a good method of finding pre-errata text for 5e-dnd, well, besides just owning a pre-errata book?
 
@Medix2 mmm...possibly some of the illegal pdf's floating around, or possibly archived errata announcements from dndb?
 
@Medix2 I think @V2Blast has had various endeavours in that field. As I understand it, there's a lot of trying to find someone with the right edition of a book
 
@Medix2 are you looking for something specific?
 
Yeah it seems that way, at least I've got people with the original copies of DMG and PHB
 
7:22 PM
They should have all the rules in a git repo. And have someone review the PR on the UA Ranger already.
 
@JohnP Nah, nothing in specific, I just had to use it for this answer and realized that could happen with things I don't have easy access to
 
@Medix2 Example: 2018 PHB errata - media.wizards.com/2018/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf
Ah, which echoes the link you found for yours.
 
Unearthed Arcana: Subclasses, Part 3. Featuring The Armorer (Artificer), the Circle of the Stars (Druid), and the Fey Wanderer (Ranger).
 
"Subclasses part 3" is really a poor name considering how many of the other UAs also introduced subclasses
 
@Medix2 I also really wish the character sheets had a history to them.
 
7:33 PM
@NautArch Dip them in some lightly brewed black tea and then dry them in the oven at a low temp.
 
> Armorer: I am Iron Man.
 
@Xirema oh yeah, 5e removed spell failure
wew
 
@JohnP You read my mind. "Thank you, Doktor!"
 
@Yuuki Well, as a % chance anyways. In 5e, having proficiency in armor means being able to cast spells while donning it, and not having Disadvantage on Attack Rolls while donning it.
> Mind Sharpener: While weaing this infused item, whenever the creature fails a Constitution Saving Throw to maintain concentration on a spell, it can use its reaction to succeed instead.
👀
 
@Xirema Kinda disappointed that 10th-level druid feature is missing three important words.
 
7:40 PM
@Yuuki do not use?
 
(My God, It's) Full Of Stars
 
I genuinely can't tell if my specific/general reasoning here makes sense. It just feels off for some reason
 
It's obviously a reference because otherwise, the name is kinda dumb.
 
@MikeQ UA has a fairly consistent track record of not very long-term useful names
 
@Medix2 Seems to be a rather clear-cut case of exception making the rule. If the scroll specifically says one can spells without material components, it's a very natural reading that the intent is that other components are required per usual.
 
7:49 PM
@kviiri yeah, i'm on board with that and upvoted @medix2 . DIdn't downvote the other answer.
 
8:12 PM
Been thinking about this question: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/165235/…
and I'm thinking the vampire Misty Escape ability doesn't work right, as written
like it says they turn into mist instead of falling unconscious. huh? monsters don't generally fall unconscious at 0 hp.
 
"Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than having it fall unconscious and make death saving throws."
 
Right, there's that. So if it's "instead of falling unconscious", does that mean they make death saving throws?
 
@MarkWells They do, as a general rule. The GM is implicitly given the option to just have them die straight away.
 
I think what it's supposed to say there is "instead of dying"
 
At the very least I'd say dying includes falling unconscious, but also monsters are allowed to die, but technically should fall unconscious on reaching 0 HP
 
8:17 PM
(and then they get to just stay at 0 hp while they flee and recover their strength)
 
The actually interesting bit is, the ability description doesn't state the Vampire doesn't have to make death saving throws at zero hit points, which on the other hand does seem like an oversight to me.
 
"Normally there is no way for a creature to be at 0 hit points and still be conscious and taking actions. However, the Vampire is clearly an exception, based on the text of its Misty Escape feature. It is very unclear whether any of the usual rules that apply to unconscious creatures at 0 hit points also apply to Misty Vampires at 0 hit points." (From this answer)
 
Yes, nothing there actually says they can't die from falling to 0 hp, except that they do a bunch of stuff afterward.
 
Alternatively: "That specific rule short circuits the entire section in the PHB on reaching 0 hp and the DM can't (except via rule 0) have a vampire take the optional path. So vampires do none of those things; they roll no death saving throws so they can have no failed death saving throws." (from this answer)
 
(hence the edge case in that Q: if you open the coffin and start stabbing the vamp, does it die? I'd say no, purely because that makes the staking mechanic irrelevant.)
 
8:20 PM
@Medix2 I'd disagree with that reading being RAW, but it probably matches the intent.
 
That's fair, just pointing out some previous discussion
 
@kviiri RAW would be that they turn into mist and then have to make death saving throws, since Misty Escape doesn't say they don't. I'm thinking probably nobody actually plays them that way.
So then the other edge case is what happens if you dump them out of the coffin while they're at 0 hp and paralyzed
 
@MarkWells Yep, that's my reading as well, as it specifically is "instead of falling unconscious" and unconsciousness and the death saves are distinct effects of being at 0 hp
 
If they remain paralyzed then you've won. They can't recover HP, so they stay paralyzed forever. Then destroy the coffin so some Renfield doesn't stick them back in it, and game over.
If they don't remain paralyzed then they are permanently at 0 HP and unkillable.
 
Given these are vampires, wouldn't those be undeath saving throws?
 
8:31 PM
_Re_death, technically.
 
8:45 PM
@MarkWells yeah, it's an interesting outlier
@Medix2 monsters have different rules from PCs, perhaps, is the way to look at the vampire mist thing ...
@AmethystWizard sorry if I am coming across as a nag; not meaning to.
 
@KorvinStarmast Well, the Monster Manual explicitly refers to the PHB for rules on hit points, so by RAW they don't in this sense.
"A monster usually dies or is destroyed when it drops to 0 hit points. For more on hit points, see the Player’s Handbook." is quite literally all they have for general monster death rules
Sadly, they leave that "usually" woefully ill-defined. I think it'd be great if they actually went out and said that that rule is a convenience thing, and that GMs should exercise discretion in applying it
 
(The PHB's suggestion to have major villains fall unconscious and make death saves at 0 hp is kind of dumb. What's that supposed to accomplish? "We fear that Sauron, the great enemy, has returned to menace the world again, because Elrond forgot to say 'I stab him 3 times' when he was at 0 hp.")
 
You only need to stab it twice (they are crits which count for two fails)
 
9:03 PM
The DM may want to keep NPCs conscious so that the PCs can defeat them but spare their lives for plot reasons.
If the players don't specify what they do with the defeated NPCs, the DM could just ask them, or assume that the NPCs are dead.
 
@MikeQ I think this is the correct intent of that option. Most DM's will have a good sense of what their players will do anyways though. If it's a party of murderhobos, then it's generally safe to assume they make sure the job is done. On the other hand, if they all worship the goddess of mercy and second chances...
well, I'm sure you can see where that would lead
Tangential side note: in most previous editions, when undead are reduced to 0 HP, they are just flat-out dead(or destroyed). There's none of that "dead at -Con" business.
 
And make sure the DM and players agree on whatever convention is used. Personal example: If the party's cleric tries to cast Spare the Dying on an enemy who dropped last turn, and the DM asserts that NPCs instantly die at 0 hp, then the player will be annoyed.
 
Oh, yeah, I've definitely done that. "Can we question these guys?" "Sure, one of them is still alive. You have Spare the Dying, right?"
 
@kviiri I think that's explicitly intended to be that non specific to give DM's latitude ...
 
@KorvinStarmast It's probably intended that way, yes, but I wish it was indeed explicit in that.
 
9:09 PM
@kviiri I am glad that it isn't. But I understand other views on this ...
 
@KorvinStarmast Wait, you think it's intended to be explicit but are glad it isn't? You lost me.
 
One of my first questions was about spare the dying in that context ..
@kviiri I think it is intended to Not be explitic.
Explicit. Arrgh, typing spazms
 
Ah, hm
What harm do you see in the rule actually clarifying that then?
Eg. saying something like "The GM can choose whether or not to let monsters make death saving throws depending on whether they feel it is appropriate given the situation"
 
On further reflection I think I'd handle the vampire getting tossed out of the coffin by having it Misty Escape right back in. Then it has two distinct states: 0 hp, out of coffin -> mist form, fleeing back to coffin. 0 hp, in coffin -> paralyzed and recuperating.
 
I think the MM wording is particularly bad because the "usually" could refer to something else entirely --- that various monsters are more-or-less immune to death from zero hit points.
The PHB version is not really that ambiguous but that, too, could stress that the GM can choose based on the situation and I don't see what the harm in that would be.
 
9:16 PM
@kviiri I'll just say that I don't find the PHB/Basic rule text on that unclear in any way. The DM chooses when to apply Dead or Making Saving throws.
 
@MarkWells Really, the solution is to bust the coffin and/or carry it out into bright sunlight while the vamp is recuperating.
 
@KorvinStarmast Then what would be the problem of actually saying that?
I mean, instead of doing the roundabout and unusual "Well usually this happens"
 
As DM, most of the time it is simpler to use "dead" ... but sometimes it is better for the play at that point to have a not quite dead NPC/Monster. It depends on the situation.
 
It feels as if they were going out of the way to avoid outright saying it's the GM's call despite the semantics pointing that way.
 
@kviiri I don't think it's necessary, that's all. It appears to me to be, since it in the PHB, a warning or a caveat to players to be alert to that possibility.
 
9:19 PM
@KorvinStarmast PHB is the source of the basic rules for GMs and players alike, so I think it's a bit misplaced if that's its only intended function.
 
@KorvinStarmast Did you intend to change &times; to an X on that question? I believe the times symbol is read more correctly by accessibility software (it also looks a lot better imo)
 
But it's way past my bedtime already, and I don't think this is really worth arguing over
 
@Someone_Evil yes, I did, you are right, ought to revert.
@kviiri sweet dreams, and you are right about that! :)
 
It's not like any RPG doesn't have some unusually worded rules here and there
Thanks!
I sure hope so x) realized a nifty algorithm thing I've been working on doesn't do exactly what I wanted but otoh also that a solution I'd like is probably easier than what I was going to work on so... it's a win?
 
@RevenantBacon Oh, yeah. And if removing it from the coffin forces it into mist form again, then that works great.
 
9:24 PM
But now'mma head to the feather islands as we call 'em.
G'nite
 
@kviiri Later tater
 
nighto
A new set of UA playtest content is out for D&D 5e: "Subclasses, Part 3", containing the Armorer for the artificer, the Circle of the Stars for the druid, and the Fey Wanderer for the ranger. There's also a feedback survey for the previous UA, "Subclasses, Part 2", as well as an overall D&D product survey.
3
 
9:44 PM
@V2Blast Do we need to have that on the star board twice (at least the new UA)?
 
9:59 PM
@JohnP I'm sorry to hear that. Turning out to be a shitty week for mod-families =(
 

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