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10:01 PM
Re recent meta discussion: Is having diverse answers a stack goal?
@G.Moylan Go for it.
@Someone_Evil That's a red herring. Their questions were downvoted/deleted for failure to provide support, and for mocking religious faith.
I get that (can't see the second myself though), I was thinking more in general
having good answers is a stack goal
@Someone_Evil our diversity of playstyles and experiences by definition should mean we have diverse answers, particularly in the GS category. RAW questions are more fact-based
and probably won't vary nearly as much
10:06 PM
diversity of worldview and experience in participants helps us find good answers
but I don't think we're specifically aiming for individual questions having diverse answers.
"Diversity" is not a thing on its own, it can only have meaning within a context of a group of things which are or are not diverse in a specific way--culture, age, gender, etc. And diversity on its own should not be a goal (then you're just quota-ing), it should be a tool to achieve a goal--and its merit can then be gauged against the goal it's being used to achieve.
Gewd Morning all
eg, one purpose of amplifying many different perspectives is that it helps us avoid harm to people that a less diverse group of perspectives might overlook. But if one of the perspectives in the group is genocidal, that is technically increasing our diversity of perspective.... but it fails to help us meet our goal of reducing harm to marginalized groups.
I don't think shooting for diversity to check off a box to say that we did is a good goal. I think it will end up likely coming naturally because we're all different, so even if we play the same game, we will likely see different interpersonal stuff or interpret the words in the rules differently, etc.
(That may seem extreme, but it's a specific example we've actually faced, and had people protest its removal with abstract "free speech" arguments that were countered with harm-prevention reasons.)
@Ash Yeah. Though we do need to be careful not to dismiss diverse perspectives when we find them simply because we don't understand them and so assume they're wrongbad.
10:19 PM
Yeah, that's super not good - not understanding/not being familiar doesn't mean the other thing is omg bad nope get it out, it just means that it's, well, new. (This is true of many things - I mean I think some of the desserts my new friends prepare look unappealing, but if I had just judged it based on "I don't think dessert should look like that", I'd've missed out on some supremely delicious food.)
diversity of perspectives generally tends to help any community produce better output
almost regardless of what it is they're actually trying to make
also seriously who's flagging BESW
If everyone is coming from a good faith, positive, safe, accepting space, theoretically yes
@Carcer Absolutely, I'm a massive fan of celebrating diversity. Just--on the Internet in particular, it can get abused as an end-run around Popper's paradox.
well, it's the explicit justification my workplace uses for having representation targets for gender and sexuality and that
@BESW Popper's paradox? (I am reminded of Mr. Popper's Penguins which I suspect might not be right at all)
@Carcer okay, that's different, though, that's approaches quota stuff which...can be it's own problem.
10:22 PM
popper's paradox is that if you want to be tolerant you must not tolerate intolerance
i.e to be tolerant you must be intolerant, at least of certain things
@G.Moylan so, are you saying that people who graft fruit trees are creating Franken-nymphs, then? some wood nymph gets a random arm from some other unrelated wood nymph stuck on them :P
@Ash Karl Popper, 1945: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance." If you try to be absolutely tolerant, you wind up tolerating attitudes which will wipe out tolerance completely.
yeah, that.
@Shalvenay Uhh... I think you mean Fanken-nymph's monster, awckually
@Ash there's nothing fundamentally wrong with setting targets for representation
10:25 PM
@BESW ah, yes, so I was completely wrong with my thoughts of penguins.
I guess I should clarify that I work in a very large media organisation with considerable churn so we can set high-level representative targets without it getting down to the level of "well, we need to hire a woman for this specific job to make our quota"
@BESW The Open Society and Its Enemies - Volume One: The Spell of Plato; for anyone that wants to read the fantastic work.
@BESW yeah, the boundaries of tolerance are set by the fact we inherited xenophobia from chimps, basically
@Carcer I did not say there was.
@Ash I think of this as an example of what Baha'u'llah called the Lesser Peace: that intermediate stage in humanity's progress toward justice where we realize that supporting justice for others is selfishly beneficial to ourselves, rather than enacting justice out of selfless dedication to the principle (which would be the Greater Peace).
10:27 PM
@BESW Thank you for framing it in a thing my heart knows.
I know a lot of us think it's a good idea first because it's fair, but the whole "well actually it makes us work better" argument is what we use to drag the grumpy old gits along with us on the way.
I know part of my sensitivity here over representation targets is that they're easily abused, I've been people's token queer friend etc and it's....not great
yeah it's definitely troublesome at that individual scale, I agree with you
Oh, it's also a problem at other scales
(quota targets like this, if not handled well, can be isolationist)
@Carcer Definitely! It's the implementation that can be a problem, while we're in this transitory "having to justify good behaviour by giving it a profit motive" stage.
10:31 PM
Like okay, yes you have x marginalized humans but do you let them speak up/have ideas/participate/integrate, or do you have them just over there, existing
the approach is that the organisation should be advertising jobs and producing inclusive output in such a way that our staff makeup naturally approaches the actual distribution in the population rather than skewing old white male, so never "we're hiring you and not them because you're an X and we need more Xes" but that we're getting a more balanced distribution of applicants in the first place so that our hires will naturally be more diverse.
@BESW more like "explain the profit motive to the analysts who think almost entirely in spreadsheets of quarterly numbers"
@Ash I'm reminded of a couple years ago when several major romance publishers announced they would be deliberately publishing more diverse authors... in their own separate diversity imprint.
@Carcer "so that our hires will naturally be more diverse" theoretically, if you assume the people doing the hiring aren't biased
@BESW And then later said "why is this not selling" and killed the imprint!
@Carcer yeah, definitely. that can require some fairly drastic changes to one's recruting pool though
10:34 PM
@Ash my lot also have mandatory unconscious bias training plus extra training of that nature which anyone who is going to sit on an interview panel and make hiring decisions has to do
@Ash yeah,.... this is kinda a thing in my workplace
Q: Are one-shot sessions before the main adventure helpful for a party of new players?

StackLloydTL;DR: As the DM, I want to prepare my group of newbie friends for the best first experience I can give them. I'm concerned about halts to give explanations ruining the flow of the game and negatively affecting immersion in the story. I thought I might have them play short one-shots in various se...

so yes that's a problem but one you can be aware of and try to counteract
@Carcer well, I'm just going to hope that that is working, then, as well as you feel it is, lacking the ability/wherewithal/need/desire to really poke at it and speak with the humans most directly affected, as that's not relevant to right now
I'm more just trying to point out that all the training etc in the world might not guarantee that you're hearing the voices you think you are.
@Carcer I think some of the experiments in blind hiring processes are interesting, myself
10:36 PM
sure, nobody's perfect
which is also emphasised in the training. You can be more aware of your biases but you cannot completely rid yourself of them, that's not how humans work
the hiring process will never be perfectly impartial and fair but we can take the measures that are available to get as good as we can at doing it
It bugs me when people treat "impartial" as if it's the same as "fair."
So my coworker brought in the original WH40,000 Rogue Trader Manual today
that's pretty old ben
Yup. Haha
10:41 PM
@BESW yeah, fairness != equality
My husband brought some 40k related books that tell you how to paint stuff and so on with him when he moved up here and I mostly like them for the amazing and sometimes very ridiculous colour combos. The books are reasonably old I think, a good few years.
sometimes, an impartial process can't be fair, even
Like I tend to think of 40k as being relatively OMG SERIOUSFACE but...it's not entirely.
my goodness it's really not
especially in the earlier editions when it was much more explicitly parody
10:44 PM
orks are cockney football hooligans for goodness sake
I'm given to understand the simplest counter argument to 40k being serious is their orcs.
@Carcer Space marines drinking from tankards in a bar
With their helmets still on
I think Hodes called that out specifically as an example of effectively removing the historical baggage from orcs... albeit at the expense of adding a whole new set of baggage.
See most humans I know that play are like yes this is my seriousface wargaming thing and I am like "hm....are you sure"
@Ash in my limited experience, basically inside the universe everything is serious, but looking at it from a perspective of "this isn't real" it's incredibly silly
10:45 PM
yeah, the orks are the most obviously comical
@trogdor yes, that's been my newfound understanding.
Hah, show me for not reading messages as I am writing mine..
@Ash and I think basically, as with the orc example, that the creators at least at first understood that divide?
@Ash I think the playing can be serious, the lore doesn't seem to try. And should be ok
10:47 PM
@Ash I've met a lot of people who... don't understand the how and why of the silly, and take the most bitingly parodic bits as straight.
but I don't know how it's evolved for them xD
@BESW Yeah,that's likely why I thought it was seriousface, because I suspect some of the people I konw who play are interepting it that way
I think it's probably safe to say that 40K's disappeared up itself a bit as time's gone on
@Carcer See, that's thinking things through. hahaha
@BESW it's that age old problem I think, you can make something really sarcastic and or ironic and parody based, but some number of people are going to take it straight every time
10:48 PM
as it has accumulated "deep" lore and serious novels and works of fiction and stuff
@Carcer yeah that seems to me to be what happened
@BESW It might be worth checking if they are familiar with the material being parodied. If you don't know that even the fact that it is parody can be hard to spot
@Someone_Evil that's also an issue, it's old enough that a lot of players now don't really have the context and are only familiar especially with the newer editions where it appears to be playing it much more straight
@Ben "emergency induction port"
@trogdor you are thinking of Poe's law
sort of. I guess.
Poe's Law-adjacent.
Q: How can I help our ranger feel special about her beast companion?

Orisa is your shieldI am not DM, just a player. In our party of newbies we have a (PHB) ranger who just recently got her beast companion (a panther if you're curious). The problem is our party also found a cat with wings - a tressym - and it was taken in by our bard. (Technically, it is part of a quest and meant to...

@Carcer I suppose possibly
10:56 PM
it's in the family of Poe's Law
of people not recognising parody and taking it seriously
Yeah I mean I'm not arguing against it
It's at the very least a similar sentiment
40k? It was meant to be funny. But:
1) People forgot it meant to be funny
2) Someone noticed it could make money by not being as funny (due to "1")
Make the Imperium Funny Again
I've even been told off for calling it "Catholic Space-Nazis" :(
11:03 PM
But they can't take the 'fun' out of Fungi! Orks, orks orks orks orks orks orks orks
don't you miss the days when there were half-eldar ultramarines
okay, bedtime. cheerio
@Carcer nite nite
Is 40k a thing over in "the colonies"?
@BlackSpike [points as myself?]
11:10 PM
I really enjoyed building up "ma bois" ... but
1) I always lost
2) people didn't laugh enough
@BlackSpike With a lack of context from all sides and the possible bad feeling over that term, it might be better to specify more directly (and simply).
To clarify the lack of context, other countries than England had/has colonies and England had other colonies than the (now) US. (I'm assuming that's the context you meant.)
@Someone_Evil ok. I'm British. I was referring (in a failed-humorous manner) to any-and-all ex British colonies, with emphasis on USA. Sorry if I caused offence. I put "quotes" round it (to show I wasn't serious)
@BlackSpike You didn't to me. But a member of another country that has been subject to dominion (be it less brutal, etc.) , I can see how it may be to others.
11:17 PM
I thought it was referring to me haha
Don't get me wrong I have used that term myself, preferring to do so when context is already established, and the tone calls for some small stabs at their expense. Even then it often falls flat.
Ben bring up the other, and possibly more important point; it is not a very clear term (out of context). Australia (among others) remembers their history with the UK/England more than maybe UK/England does sometimes
@Someone_Evil I shall try to use more respectful language.
@BlackSpike Respect is one thing, tact is another. Like @Someone_Evil mentioned, it's not inappropriate; just depends on context haha.
@BlackSpike Don't let that get in the way of making jokes, though humor and context is highly related.
But to answer your question @BlackSpike, I do believe so. I have a few friends over in the states that at the very least know of others that play it.
11:23 PM
@Someone_Evil If you can't name the children of the cook who prepared each of your rations, then you get no rations
@Ben @Someone_Evil it's all interlinked. humour relies on context.
@Ben cool. I live just up the road from GW HQ
@MikeQ Fortunately we have tables to roll on for that problem
@BlackSpike Oh cool! In truth, I kinda gave up on the Tabletop aspect of the game. I didn't have the right mentality to paint a whole army. I'd spend 4 hours painting one mini. Lol. It looked amazing when it was done, but that's just impractical haha.
11:26 PM
@Ben haha! Yeah, I don't have the patience for that. Don't hold the mini close-up.... does it look OK at arms-length?
@BlackSpike That's what I was doing wrong XD
As an FYI: The arrow to the far right when you hover over a message lets you reply to that message with your message. It can be really helpful to clarify responses when multiple topics are discussed, either by different or same users.
(esp. with Orks ... I got multiple squads of 30 .... slap some paint on 'em , call 'em table-ready!)
I went with "interesting ideas" rather than "high-quality execution" :D
@Carcer lol
Pretty much
@BlackSpike ah ok o hadn't understood you meant it that way but yes at least some number of people in the USA are into it
Though I think there is a much higher percentage in this country of missing the jokes
@BlackSpike Please tell me that's a bagpipe flamethrower :D
11:36 PM
@Ben hehe just a piper-squig :)
@BlackSpike Google is not being helpful lol. What's a piper squig?
Although the pipes have been described as a terror-weapon!
Oh wait.
Squigs are the catch-all Orkish pets
Bells are ringing...
Yes. I remember now haha
11:38 PM
Orks are naturally bald. They attach "hairy squigs" to their heads to look like "hair". Some strange and bazaar "Weirdboyz" put them on their chin! :o
I made a Klan McHaggis squad. Drums n pipes, a sword-dancer, and a Boss with a claymore (sword, not explosive mine!)
If your interested in non-ex-British colonies anecdotal data: I can confirm 40k has some presence in Norway as well, but I can't speak to how much. My LGS had more Age of Sigmar last I checked (didn't check very thoroughly), but my guess is that's more a recent-release factor than popularity.
y'know of caber-tossing? IRL it's a log, not a rokkit! :D
@Someone_Evil I fell off the scene before AoS came out. Followed a bit of the law-suits that lead to it ... interesting to hear Norway has a scene
It's probably fair to say there are all kinds of nerds all over the world.
@Someone_Evil tru
@trogdor we've lost most of the joke here in UK :( the Black Library novels are v serious :(
@BlackSpike yeah I figured, but I think here we barely understood the joke to begin with
Here not being so much here geographically but as a country
As a whole
11:49 PM
The GW 40k humour was -very- UK based. "(Ghazkhul) Mag Uruk Thraka" only just worked here, so I can see anyone else missing it ...
I'm just reminiscing about our DH/RT games, and our go to joke refers to one situation, where we had hired some Kroot. Since we couldn't speak Kroot, we named them Hudson, Jersey, and Mississippi.
Anyway, we had received word that a psychic would be having a premonition about a lost world, with a hugely valuable treasure, and anyone present during the premonition would be given the location of this planet. We showed up, our Rogue Trader received the premonition, then all hell broke loose.
So I just take my Evil Moon boys, and build stuff I find funny. Klan McHaggis, the Battle Bus (a 1930's omnibus kitbash), the fire trukk (got my Burna-Boys in it. same kit as bus). Kinder kans (kinder eggs .. USA don't get them?) ... Spanna-head unda his umbrella, ella, ella (Kustom Force Field)
@Someone_Evil I feel compelled to point out that the phrase "non-ex-British" can be interpreted as indicating that Norway is currently a British colony.
@Miniman oh man I didn't even see that unintended implication
We ended up dragging our half conscious RT out of the room, as he let loose with his flame thrower, and to let the Kroot know what was going on, he just started screaming over the Vox: "HUDSON! IT'S ON FIRE HUDSON! IT'S ALL ON FIRE!"
11:59 PM
@Ben "would be having a premonition ".... getting kinda 'Inception' there, no? :D
@BlackSpike the warp works in mysterious ways :P

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