TRPG General Chat

Someone_Evil

10:01 PM

Re recent meta discussion: Is having diverse answers a stack goal?

Mark Wells

@G.Moylan Go for it.

BESW

@Someone_Evil That's a red herring. Their questions were downvoted/deleted for failure to provide support, and for mocking religious faith.

Someone_Evil

I get that (can't see the second myself though), I was thinking more in general

Carcer

having good answers is a stack goal

G. Moylan

@Someone_Evil our diversity of playstyles and experiences by definition should mean we have diverse answers, particularly in the GS category. RAW questions are more fact-based

and probably won't vary nearly as much

Carcer

10:06 PM

diversity of worldview and experience in participants helps us find good answers

3

but I don't think we're specifically aiming for individual questions having diverse answers.

BESW

"Diversity" is not a thing on its own, it can only have meaning within a context of a group of things which are or are not diverse in a specific way--culture, age, gender, etc. And diversity on its own should not be a goal (then you're just quota-ing), it should be a tool to achieve a goal--and its merit can then be gauged against the goal it's being used to achieve.

Ben

Gewd Morning all

BESW

eg, one purpose of amplifying many different perspectives is that it helps us avoid harm to people that a less diverse group of perspectives might overlook. But if one of the perspectives in the group is genocidal, that is technically increasing our diversity of perspective.... but it fails to help us meet our goal of reducing harm to marginalized groups.

user15026

I don't think shooting for diversity to check off a box to say that we did is a good goal. I think it will end up likely coming naturally because we're all different, so even if we play the same game, we will likely see different interpersonal stuff or interpret the words in the rules differently, etc.

BESW

(That may seem extreme, but it's a specific example we've actually faced, and had people protest its removal with abstract "free speech" arguments that were countered with harm-prevention reasons.)

@Ash Yeah. Though we do need to be careful not to dismiss diverse perspectives when we find them simply because we don't understand them and so assume they're wrongbad.

user15026

10:19 PM

Yeah, that's super not good - not understanding/not being familiar doesn't mean the other thing is omg bad nope get it out, it just means that it's, well, new. (This is true of many things - I mean I think some of the desserts my new friends prepare look unappealing, but if I had just judged it based on "I don't think dessert should look like that", I'd've missed out on some supremely delicious food.)

Carcer

diversity of perspectives generally tends to help any community produce better output

almost regardless of what it is they're actually trying to make

also seriously who's flagging BESW

user15026

If everyone is coming from a good faith, positive, safe, accepting space, theoretically yes

BESW

@Carcer Absolutely, I'm a massive fan of celebrating diversity. Just--on the Internet in particular, it can get abused as an end-run around Popper's paradox.

Carcer

well, it's the explicit justification my workplace uses for having representation targets for gender and sexuality and that

user15026

@BESW Popper's paradox? (I am reminded of Mr. Popper's Penguins which I suspect might not be right at all)

user15026

10:22 PM

@Carcer okay, that's different, though, that's approaches quota stuff which...can be it's own problem.

Carcer

popper's paradox is that if you want to be tolerant you must not tolerate intolerance

i.e to be tolerant you must be intolerant, at least of certain things

Shalvenay

@G.Moylan so, are you saying that people who graft fruit trees are creating Franken-nymphs, then? some wood nymph gets a random arm from some other unrelated wood nymph stuck on them :P

BESW

@Ash Karl Popper, 1945: "Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance." If you try to be absolutely tolerant, you wind up tolerating attitudes which will wipe out tolerance completely.

Carcer

yeah, that.

Someone_Evil

@Shalvenay Uhh... I think you mean Fanken-nymph's monster, awckually

Carcer

10:24 PM

@Ash there's nothing fundamentally wrong with setting targets for representation

user15026

@BESW ah, yes, so I was completely wrong with my thoughts of penguins.

Carcer

I guess I should clarify that I work in a very large media organisation with considerable churn so we can set high-level representative targets without it getting down to the level of "well, we need to hire a woman for this specific job to make our quota"

Akixkisu

@BESW The Open Society and Its Enemies - Volume One: The Spell of Plato; for anyone that wants to read the fantastic work.

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, the boundaries of tolerance are set by the fact we inherited xenophobia from chimps, basically

user15026

@Carcer I did not say there was.

BESW

10:26 PM

@Ash I think of this as an example of what Baha'u'llah called the Lesser Peace: that intermediate stage in humanity's progress toward justice where we realize that supporting justice for others is selfishly beneficial to ourselves, rather than enacting justice out of selfless dedication to the principle (which would be the Greater Peace).

user15026

@BESW Thank you for framing it in a thing my heart knows.

Carcer

heh

I know a lot of us think it's a good idea first because it's fair, but the whole "well actually it makes us work better" argument is what we use to drag the grumpy old gits along with us on the way.

user15026

I know part of my sensitivity here over representation targets is that they're easily abused, I've been people's token queer friend etc and it's....not great

Carcer

yeah it's definitely troublesome at that individual scale, I agree with you

user15026

Oh, it's also a problem at other scales

user15026

10:30 PM

(quota targets like this, if not handled well, can be isolationist)

BESW

@Carcer Definitely! It's the implementation that can be a problem, while we're in this transitory "having to justify good behaviour by giving it a profit motive" stage.

user15026

Like okay, yes you have x marginalized humans but do you let them speak up/have ideas/participate/integrate, or do you have them just over there, existing

Carcer

the approach is that the organisation should be advertising jobs and producing inclusive output in such a way that our staff makeup naturally approaches the actual distribution in the population rather than skewing old white male, so never "we're hiring you and not them because you're an X and we need more Xes" but that we're getting a more balanced distribution of applicants in the first place so that our hires will naturally be more diverse.

Shalvenay

@BESW more like "explain the profit motive to the analysts who think almost entirely in spreadsheets of quarterly numbers"

BESW

@Ash I'm reminded of a couple years ago when several major romance publishers announced they would be deliberately publishing more diverse authors... in their own separate diversity imprint.

user15026

10:33 PM

@Carcer "so that our hires will naturally be more diverse" theoretically, if you assume the people doing the hiring aren't biased

user15026

@BESW And then later said "why is this not selling" and killed the imprint!

Shalvenay

@Carcer yeah, definitely. that can require some fairly drastic changes to one's recruting pool though

Carcer

@Ash my lot also have mandatory unconscious bias training plus extra training of that nature which anyone who is going to sit on an interview panel and make hiring decisions has to do

trogdor

@Ash yeah,.... this is kinda a thing in my workplace

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Carcer

10:35 PM

so yes that's a problem but one you can be aware of and try to counteract

user15026

@Carcer well, I'm just going to hope that that is working, then, as well as you feel it is, lacking the ability/wherewithal/need/desire to really poke at it and speak with the humans most directly affected, as that's not relevant to right now

user15026

I'm more just trying to point out that all the training etc in the world might not guarantee that you're hearing the voices you think you are.

Shalvenay

@Carcer I think some of the experiments in blind hiring processes are interesting, myself

Carcer

sure, nobody's perfect

which is also emphasised in the training. You can be more aware of your biases but you cannot completely rid yourself of them, that's not how humans work

the hiring process will never be perfectly impartial and fair but we can take the measures that are available to get as good as we can at doing it

user15026

Mhm.

BESW

10:37 PM

It bugs me when people treat "impartial" as if it's the same as "fair."

Ben

So my coworker brought in the original WH40,000 Rogue Trader Manual today

Carcer

that's pretty old ben

Ben

Yup. Haha

Shalvenay

@BESW yeah, fairness != equality

user15026

My husband brought some 40k related books that tell you how to paint stuff and so on with him when he moved up here and I mostly like them for the amazing and sometimes very ridiculous colour combos. The books are reasonably old I think, a good few years.

Shalvenay

10:41 PM

sometimes, an impartial process can't be fair, even

user15026

Like I tend to think of 40k as being relatively OMG SERIOUSFACE but...it's not entirely.

Carcer

my goodness it's really not

especially in the earlier editions when it was much more explicitly parody

Ben

Carcer

orks are cockney football hooligans for goodness sake

Someone_Evil

I'm given to understand the simplest counter argument to 40k being serious is their orcs.

Ben

10:45 PM

@Carcer Space marines drinking from tankards in a bar

With their helmets still on

BESW

I think Hodes called that out specifically as an example of effectively removing the historical baggage from orcs... albeit at the expense of adding a whole new set of baggage.

user15026

See most humans I know that play are like yes this is my seriousface wargaming thing and I am like "hm....are you sure"

trogdor

@Ash in my limited experience, basically inside the universe everything is serious, but looking at it from a perspective of "this isn't real" it's incredibly silly

Carcer

yeah, the orks are the most obviously comical

user15026

@trogdor yes, that's been my newfound understanding.

Someone_Evil

10:46 PM

Hah, show me for not reading messages as I am writing mine..

trogdor

@Ash and I think basically, as with the orc example, that the creators at least at first understood that divide?

Someone_Evil

@Ash I think the playing can be serious, the lore doesn't seem to try. And should be ok

Carcer

@Ben last panel

BESW

@Ash I've met a lot of people who... don't understand the how and why of the silly, and take the most bitingly parodic bits as straight.

trogdor

but I don't know how it's evolved for them xD

user15026

10:47 PM

@BESW Yeah,that's likely why I thought it was seriousface, because I suspect some of the people I konw who play are interepting it that way

Carcer

I think it's probably safe to say that 40K's disappeared up itself a bit as time's gone on

Ben

@Carcer See, that's thinking things through. hahaha

trogdor

@BESW it's that age old problem I think, you can make something really sarcastic and or ironic and parody based, but some number of people are going to take it straight every time

Carcer

as it has accumulated "deep" lore and serious novels and works of fiction and stuff

trogdor

@Carcer yeah that seems to me to be what happened

Someone_Evil

10:48 PM

@BESW It might be worth checking if they are familiar with the material being parodied. If you don't know that even the fact that it is parody can be hard to spot

Carcer

@Someone_Evil that's also an issue, it's old enough that a lot of players now don't really have the context and are only familiar especially with the newer editions where it appears to be playing it much more straight

@Ben "emergency induction port"

@trogdor you are thinking of Poe's law

sort of. I guess.

Poe's Law-adjacent.

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trogdor

@Carcer I suppose possibly

Carcer

it's in the family of Poe's Law

of people not recognising parody and taking it seriously

trogdor

Mm

Yeah I mean I'm not arguing against it

It's at the very least a similar sentiment

Black Spike

11:01 PM

40k? It was meant to be funny. But:
1) People forgot it meant to be funny
2) Someone noticed it could make money by not being as funny (due to "1")

Carcer

Make the Imperium Funny Again

2

Black Spike

I've even been told off for calling it "Catholic Space-Nazis" :(

Carcer

Black Spike

YOINK

But they can't take the 'fun' out of Fungi! Orks, orks orks orks orks orks orks orks

Carcer

don't you miss the days when there were half-eldar ultramarines

Black Spike

11:05 PM

Carcer

okay, bedtime. cheerio

Black Spike

@Carcer nite nite

Is 40k a thing over in "the colonies"?

Ben

@BlackSpike [points as myself?]

Black Spike

I really enjoyed building up "ma bois" ... but
1) I always lost
2) people didn't laugh enough
:(

Someone_Evil

@BlackSpike With a lack of context from all sides and the possible bad feeling over that term, it might be better to specify more directly (and simply).

Ben

11:11 PM

Someone_Evil

To clarify the lack of context, other countries than England had/has colonies and England had other colonies than the (now) US. (I'm assuming that's the context you meant.)

Black Spike

@Someone_Evil ok. I'm British. I was referring (in a failed-humorous manner) to any-and-all ex British colonies, with emphasis on USA. Sorry if I caused offence. I put "quotes" round it (to show I wasn't serious)

Someone_Evil

@BlackSpike You didn't to me. But a member of another country that has been subject to dominion (be it less brutal, etc.) , I can see how it may be to others.

Ben

I thought it was referring to me haha

Someone_Evil

Don't get me wrong I have used that term myself, preferring to do so when context is already established, and the tone calls for some small stabs at their expense. Even then it often falls flat.

Ben bring up the other, and possibly more important point; it is not a very clear term (out of context). Australia (among others) remembers their history with the UK/England more than maybe UK/England does sometimes

Black Spike

11:20 PM

@Someone_Evil I shall try to use more respectful language.

Ben

@BlackSpike Respect is one thing, tact is another. Like @Someone_Evil mentioned, it's not inappropriate; just depends on context haha.

Someone_Evil

@BlackSpike Don't let that get in the way of making jokes, though humor and context is highly related.

Ben

But to answer your question @BlackSpike, I do believe so. I have a few friends over in the states that at the very least know of others that play it.

MikeQ

@Someone_Evil If you can't name the children of the cook who prepared each of your rations, then you get no rations

Black Spike

@Ben @Someone_Evil it's all interlinked. humour relies on context.

Ben

11:24 PM

In other newsfeeds

Black Spike

@Ben cool. I live just up the road from GW HQ

Someone_Evil

@MikeQ Fortunately we have tables to roll on for that problem

Ben

@BlackSpike Oh cool! In truth, I kinda gave up on the Tabletop aspect of the game. I didn't have the right mentality to paint a whole army. I'd spend 4 hours painting one mini. Lol. It looked amazing when it was done, but that's just impractical haha.

Black Spike

@Ben haha! Yeah, I don't have the patience for that. Don't hold the mini close-up.... does it look OK at arms-length?

Ben

@BlackSpike That's what I was doing wrong XD

Someone_Evil

11:27 PM

As an FYI: The arrow to the far right when you hover over a message lets you reply to that message with your message. It can be really helpful to clarify responses when multiple topics are discussed, either by different or same users.

Black Spike

(esp. with Orks ... I got multiple squads of 30 .... slap some paint on 'em , call 'em table-ready!)

I went with "interesting ideas" rather than "high-quality execution" :D

trogdor

@Carcer lol

Pretty much

@BlackSpike ah ok o hadn't understood you meant it that way but yes at least some number of people in the USA are into it

Though I think there is a much higher percentage in this country of missing the jokes

Ben

@BlackSpike Please tell me that's a bagpipe flamethrower :D

Black Spike

@Ben hehe just a piper-squig :)

Ben

@BlackSpike Google is not being helpful lol. What's a piper squig?

Black Spike

11:37 PM

Although the pipes have been described as a terror-weapon!

Ben

Oh wait.

Black Spike

Squigs are the catch-all Orkish pets

Ben

Bells are ringing...

Yes. I remember now haha

Black Spike

Orks are naturally bald. They attach "hairy squigs" to their heads to look like "hair". Some strange and bazaar "Weirdboyz" put them on their chin! :o

I made a Klan McHaggis squad. Drums n pipes, a sword-dancer, and a Boss with a claymore (sword, not explosive mine!)

Someone_Evil

If your interested in non-ex-British colonies anecdotal data: I can confirm 40k has some presence in Norway as well, but I can't speak to how much. My LGS had more Age of Sigmar last I checked (didn't check very thoroughly), but my guess is that's more a recent-release factor than popularity.

Black Spike

11:41 PM

y'know of caber-tossing? IRL it's a log, not a rokkit! :D

@Someone_Evil I fell off the scene before AoS came out. Followed a bit of the law-suits that lead to it ... interesting to hear Norway has a scene

Someone_Evil

It's probably fair to say there are all kinds of nerds all over the world.

Black Spike

@Someone_Evil tru

@trogdor we've lost most of the joke here in UK :( the Black Library novels are v serious :(

trogdor

@BlackSpike yeah I figured, but I think here we barely understood the joke to begin with

Here not being so much here geographically but as a country

As a whole

Black Spike

The GW 40k humour was -very- UK based. "(Ghazkhul) Mag Uruk Thraka" only just worked here, so I can see anyone else missing it ...

Ben

I'm just reminiscing about our DH/RT games, and our go to joke refers to one situation, where we had hired some Kroot. Since we couldn't speak Kroot, we named them Hudson, Jersey, and Mississippi.

Anyway, we had received word that a psychic would be having a premonition about a lost world, with a hugely valuable treasure, and anyone present during the premonition would be given the location of this planet. We showed up, our Rogue Trader received the premonition, then all hell broke loose.

Black Spike

11:57 PM

So I just take my Evil Moon boys, and build stuff I find funny. Klan McHaggis, the Battle Bus (a 1930's omnibus kitbash), the fire trukk (got my Burna-Boys in it. same kit as bus). Kinder kans (kinder eggs .. USA don't get them?) ... Spanna-head unda his umbrella, ella, ella (Kustom Force Field)

Miniman

@Someone_Evil I feel compelled to point out that the phrase "non-ex-British" can be interpreted as indicating that Norway is currently a British colony.

trogdor

@Miniman oh man I didn't even see that unintended implication

XD

Ben

We ended up dragging our half conscious RT out of the room, as he let loose with his flame thrower, and to let the Kroot know what was going on, he just started screaming over the Vox: "HUDSON! IT'S ON FIRE HUDSON! IT'S ALL ON FIRE!"

Black Spike

@Ben "would be having a premonition ".... getting kinda 'Inception' there, no? :D

Ben

@BlackSpike the warp works in mysterious ways :P

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