TRPG General Chat

NautArch

20:00

@ColinGross I'm also guessing he had to increase the difficulty of the encounters to accomodate for the extra creatures. Be interesting to see if it's diminishing returns or not.

BESW

"Tabletop Tuesday: RPGs Designed by People of Color," by Brook H. for Pop Culture Uncovered.

Colin Gross

@NautArch For 2nd ed, not sure. We didn't for 3.5 and 5. There's only one skilled NPC though. City guard.

NautArch

@ColinGross it's been a looooooooooong time since I've played AD&D

Colin Gross

@BESW I wish D&D did a better job of that.

@NautArch I don't like going back because all the weights and distances and crap are difficult to convert.

I did recently contemplate playing pen & paper battletech again.

BESW

D&D isn't a very marginalized-friendly setting; I like seeing the alternatives, myself.

NautArch

20:07

@BESW I just don't know enough of the lore of D&D. It probably hurts how we play a bit, but it's also generally means we can do build the worlds we want and play mostly without much consideration regarding inter-race issues.

David Coffron

@NautArch every world has different racial tensions. D&D doesn't have a default lore

Colin Gross

@NautArch By and large it's a lot of subtle stuff in the context, descriptions, etc that is so far beneath my radar I never notice it unless I go looking or it's pointed out.

BESW

Not really. Anything with orcs is going to either accept or confront their roots in "what if real-life racist propaganda used to justify genocide were actually true?"

Simon H.

It's easy to use ttrpgs and even gaming in general as an escape from life's complexities.

BESW

And D&D... doesn't do much confronting of its own material.

Simon H.

20:17

@BESW Not just orcs. Drow and Duergar too.

NautArch

@SimonH. Kinda, but Mordenkainen's has some very interesting info on the Duergar. THose guys got the short end of the stick.

I don'tk now if it's new info or not, but it was really interesting and sad.

Simon H.

@NautArch I see. Is mordenkainen's worth getting, then? I'm tentative about spending another $50 on a D&D book rather than a new system.

NautArch

@SimonH. I have very much been enjoying reading it

Mike Q

@SimonH. I would recommend borrowing it from a friend first, if able. Then if you enjoy it and have the money to spend, buy your own copy.

NautArch

if you'dl ike to take al ook, you can email me and I can add you to dndbeyond

I created a Chatizen 'game' so folks could access my material

@SimonH. click me for info, send me your email

Simon H.

20:22

@MikeQ Oh, good point.

@NautArch Sorry, but I can't access dndbeyond right now.

Thank you for the offer though.

Mike Q

@SimonH. I think the link is a one-time message that contains info on how to access their dndbeyond material

NautArch

@SimonH. doesn't have to be right now :) But you'll have ongoing access.

Colin Gross

@BESW I like Eberron for a better setting than the other traditional ones. It has a very pragmatic even film noir feel to it.

Simon H.

@NautArch Oh, alright. I'll do that now.

Colin Gross

@BESW Specifically the Dar races (Goblin, Hobgoblin, Bugbear) of Eberron have an interesting, complex, and pretty well developed culture and lore to them.

BESW

20:27

@SimonH. Yeah, the material D&D draws inspiration from is derived in multiple traditions that need a good hard knock upside the head but D&D incorporated them mostly unquestioningly. It accepts entire groups of sapient beings as acceptable targets, it doesn't understand how religion works, it uses real-life exoticism and ableism as casual worldbuilding tools...

Mike Q

@BESW If you were a coastal wizard and could change stuff by fiat, how would you confront and adjust the socio/ethno/etc shortcomings of the system and lore?

BESW

@ColinGross And this isn't just a D&D thing, it's endemic to the "classic" fantasy space, but D&D actively codifies and reinforces it.

@MikeQ If I were a coastal wizard I wouldn't be able to change things by fiat because my Hasbro Overlord would ~~fire me~~ set me on fire.

NautArch

@BESW on a side note...i'm almost ready to start the murderbot books :) Just have to finish the final First Law book.

BESW

@NautArch OMG they are delightful.

Colin Gross

@BESW Underlying assumptions of most of the standard adventure tropes.

NautArch

20:29

@BESW I'm excited :) I was underwhelmed by the last book of the Demon Cycle.

Mike Q

Ok, if you could somehow overrule the coastal wizards' content by fiat, how would you confront and adjust the socio/ethno/etc shortcomings of the system and lore?

BESW

I'm kind of on the same page with Jemisin here: you could do a lot of work to rehabilitate deeply twisted traditions and never quite succeed at lifting the material beyond a commentary on its own past, or you could go do something new.

Colin Gross

@MikeQ That's why I like Keith Baker's take on thing. Goblins aren't uncivilized e.g. the tribes are important historical political entities even in their modern nation.

Mike Q

Alright. Then if you took the existing system and mechanics - let's say 5e because it's a common example - and put it in a homebrew world with your own lore, then do you think that would compensate for it? Or are the racism and xenophobia and ableism so inherent in the system that it cannot be salvaged? (Not a sarcastic question)

Colin Gross

Or Droaam, a nation populated by and run by "monsterous" races.

David Coffron

20:32

@BESW those tropes are incorporated into the lore of many stories though. When alignment is concrete like we see in D&D's classic settings, it makes way more sense to label people as worthy of killing. Orcs (to use your example) are evil.

Colin Gross

@MikeQ I don't think the mechanics of most of the game are particularly broken. The categories, descriptions, and traditional challenges seem dated to me.

kviiri

@Anaphory Scheduling has been a pain :<

Colin Gross

I like the campaign where the players might eventually sort out that they're the bad guys despite being seeing themselves as doing "good"

I'm sad the alignment system wasn't totally scrapped with 5e.

David Coffron

@ColinGross but in many D&D settings good and evil.have specific definitions. It's not a subjective thing like it i in our world

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Exactly. It's a p.o.s. system, but is built into the descriptive language.

Anaphory

20:35

@kviiri Aw, I hear you. I had some plans to play things over summer, nothing happened there yet, either.

BESW

That's part of the problem: the "what if entire groups of people were really so evil it's okay to treat them like animals" is a fantasy that gets used to justify real-world atrocities.

Don't succumb to "if it makes sense in the story world then problems with how the story world reflects on the real world aren't actually problems."

Because it's a story that's written by people in the real world, and played by people in the real world.

Colin Gross

@BESW Oh man... I really like the warforged of Eberron. A sentient species created by artificers and used as weapons of war. Only recently given person status, but are still magical-mechanical in nature.

David Coffron

@BESW In the real.world that type of behavior is atrocious but The Forgotten Realms (for example) is not the real world

@BESW the story is not supposed to reflect on the real world in every instance.

BESW

Right. But I don't want to play in a world that's "what if the Nazis were right."

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron That's kind of an overt example. The tropes that get pointed out to me are the rehashes of colonial expansion. Go somewhere and kill a thing or find treasure.

BESW

20:38

@ColinGross This is also a Major Thing, yes.

@MikeQ I don't know, but I don't really care for the mechanics either; goblin dice for days.

Mike Q

@ColinGross The "colonialist" one is an issue in most systems that encourage kicking down the door and murdering the inhabitants. The racial stereotyping is more problematic in certain systems, such as when the bestiary says that all members of X race are Y alignment, because that has implications in how the players interact with members of X race

Colin Gross

@BESW But it's subtle because a great deal of western european history is written from that perspective, so we're accustomed to it.

David Coffron

@BESW it's not what if the Nazis were right. It's "in this world there are evil creatures not related to any real life people"

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron That makes for cardboard opponents.

David Coffron

@ColinGross I didn't say the lore is interesting, but it's not a mirror of real life racial propaganda bc in the game world they are evil

BESW

20:40

@DavidCoffron Except they aren't unrelated, because orcs and naga and so forth draw on specific real-world stereotypes of real-world groups to get that colonial "savage expendable" feeling.

Simon H.

I think comparing real races to fantasy races is problematic.

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Yeah, it's just one of the oversimplifications that gets made that eventually got under my skin. It was eventually unsatisfying.

Simon H.

If we did, then would dwarves be a representation of people with dwarfism?

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Orcs and Goblins are hardly "colonial" in origin. The cultural lore behind them (and gnomes, and faeries) well precedes the colonial age/age of sail.

David Coffron

@BESW they give you that feeling because you draw those connections (human brains are good at that). That's not necessarily the inspiration

BESW

20:42

@DavidCoffron Good original intent does not excuse perpetuating bad outcomes for decades after the original intent-ers are out of the franchise.

NautArch

ALso important to note that Us vs Them is a Thing. And it's pretty ingrained in animals.

BESW

@SimonH. No, D&D dwarfs are mostly Tolkien dwarves and that's a whole other thing.

@KorvinStarmast Please don't conflate historical origins with modern iterations.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW I saw a comment (IIRC from Crawford) where he's looking into getting this whole 'race' thing out of D&D and trying to lean more toward culture (not race) conflict/tension, given the issues that time's passage has wrought. Beyond that, your choosing to overwrite your opinion as fact isn't attractive.

I think that was on Twitter, but it might have been a pod cast or something.

David Coffron

@BESW why is that a bad outcome. It's not connected to the real world in any way other than peripherally

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast He did have a Tweet about it.

NautArch

20:45

Let's Be Nice everyone. This is a touchy subject :)

BESW

@DavidCoffron I suggest you read the perspective of marginalized peoples on fantasy races, because they don't really agree that it's peripheral.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I thought Crawford tweeted it, and My remark was "not a bad idea" given time's passage.

Simon H.

@NautArch Agreed. I'm worried this might get out of hand.

NautArch

Back to a previous statement...has anyone else read the Demon Cycle?

Rubiksmoose

@_JustinVO_ @JosephCAllen @HMGrazzt Our use of “race” is anachronistic. Anachronism can be quaint—D&D is packed with anachronism—but as writers, it’s our responsibility to know when a word’s meaning has changed for enough people that our intended meaning is at risk of being unintelligible.

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on May 8, 2018 at 9:36 AM in reply to _JustinVO_

KorvinStarmast

20:47

@NautArch Series or a single volume?

@Rubiksmoose Yeah! Good catch. That's the one.

David Coffron

@BESW I've read literature on it. I still think it should be isolated from the real world. I personally would like to see less racial division in lore (as a marginalized person myself), but that doesn't mean we should needlessly disparage the current state of things. It's not supposed to be cruel or referential to horrors in the past. It just needs updating in language (which they are doing)

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Also here and here

David Coffron

Not to mention D&D is often set in medieval times which in the real world had lots of problems with racism, so it makes sense historically. If you were reading a historical fiction novel, you'd expect racism to be present. The same is true for a world set in that approximate time period (even if they add magic and dragon's and more).

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron IIRC there's a D&D-like system where "race" is replaced with "ancestry", and the setting and system doesn't feature huge disparities between the racial choices... I can't remember which system though.

David Coffron

@MikeQ that's a much better word.

NautArch

20:51

@KorvinStarmast series

haven't read any of parallel books, but just finished the main cycle and I enjoyed it, but the last books was a bit underwhelming and felt rushed.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Hmm, let's have a look.

@NautArch So were the harry potter series last few phonebooks. But they sold well enough. (in re felt rushed)

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron Ok, apparently it's Pathfinder 2, and while they're just changing the word, they're still falling into the same pitfalls. Some ancestries have flaws to certain ability scores, or have features based on the stereotype, etc.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ At least 5e stopped with the minus ability scores ... oh, wait, they brought them back in Volo's. Gaaaaaaaah.

Simon H.

@DavidCoffron I don't think that means we have to celebrate it, even if that's true.

We play D&D all the time, and if these are true representations of real-world races and discrimination of the time, then it's wrong to ignore that.

I just find it difficult to believe that they are, because the implications of that would be too negative for me.

BESW

@SimonH. Bigotry and institutional marginalization looked very different four or eight hundred years ago, so it'd actually be anachronistic to impose our modern versions of them in the name of "historical accuracy."

Mike Q

21:03

@SimonH. I'm not sure if it matters whether the fantasy races do or don't reflect real races. I think the problem at hand is that the system and lore kind of encourages the xenophobia, even if the races themselves are made-up.

BESW

@MikeQ This too. Not that it's wrong to play in settings with those sorts of problems, but I don't feel comfortable playing in settings that leave those problems unexamined and tacitly or explicitly supported.

KorvinStarmast

@SimonH. The Chainmail/wargame origins from way back started as a war game. "them versus us" You don't have to have Hobgoblins as the enemy; in can be another nation of humans; it can be dwarves versus elves. I seem to recall a story from Rob Kuntz that his original fighter Robilar had a bunch of orc allies at one point in the campaign;

David Coffron

@MikeQ I mean..

That's how those creatures are

KorvinStarmast

@SimonH. Keep on the Borderlands nearly required that you form alliances with some of the orcs/goblins/bugbears versus the various others or you'd end up with a party wipe. Heck our most deadly encounter was with that stab in the back human cleric back at the keep in our first party that tired that module ... .

Mike Q

@BESW Right, it's one thing to say that the setting has multiple ethnicities and racism exists. It's another thing to say that some ethnicities/cultures are good or evil or more expendable than others, and then reinforce those attitudes with game mechanics that reward that approach.

BESW

21:05

Minisode - The Thermian Argument

►

Yuuki

@BESW Beat me to it.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ That's well said.

David Coffron

You wouldn't say it's a stereotype that all buffalo have a penalty to Dexterity because they are less dexterous than other creatures

It's a fact of their anatomy

@MikeQ but in D&D they are evil. It's part of their existence

Yuuki

Why does it have to be described as a penalty to their Dexterity?

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Oh dear, I now have to make a rogue named Dextrous Buffalo. you made me do it. :)

Yuuki

21:08

Folding Ideas has some good ideas and raises some good questions. There are a few that I seem to recall disagreeing with but I currently can't recall off the top of my head, but that's emphatically not a sign of bad things.

Simon H.

@BESW Then you believe that gaming should share 1:1 representations of real-world morality?

I think that could be interesting.

KorvinStarmast

@SimonH. Paranoia might not work with that, though...

Yuuki

@SimonH. That's not what the Thermian argument is about at all.

Mike Q

@SimonH. If I understand correctly, their qualm is that the system's authors leave the moral issues unaddressed

BESW

@SimonH. I think that's an extreme interpretation of what I'm saying, to the point of being difficult to engage with.

Simon H.

21:09

Argh.

BESW

The Thermian argument is saying that stories are made and enjoyed by people in the real world, and thus 'it makes sense in the story" is not a legitimate defense against criticism for how the story interacts with the real world.

David Coffron

@MikeQ Xenophobia makes sense in a world where some creatures are evil by their nature.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Given the thorny nature of moral issues since about forever, not everyone is equipped to flesh out morality in the vehicle of a game. Finite time and space. But I think BESW's point that one is allowed to make that critique (X doesn't address the moral point) is not an unfair point.

David Coffron

Look at the Redemption Paladin for example. Most people in a modern sensibilities version of Forgotten Realms would probably agree that almost everyone has the potential to be good, but even they make exceptions for devils and demons who are evil. Period.

Simon H.

@BESW Right, and my argument is that means the story needs to be moral in a real-world context as well. I am wrong in believing so?

BESW

21:11

@SimonH. There's a few unstated logical leaps in there.

"Moral" is a slippery word that you've introduced; nobody else was using it.

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron Possibly. When the system pairs up certain races with certain alignments, then you have a moral architecture that says racism is good. And if that is an intended consequence, so be it, but if that is unintended then there is a blindness somewhere.

KorvinStarmast

There is a semi useful discussion in a GiTP thread where people discuss how much they address racism during their games at their table. Some tables are a lot more comfortable addressing those issues than others. that boils down to "What do you want to do in your free time?"

David Coffron

@MikeQ racism is good in a world where some races are inherently evil. That part is important

Our world doesn't have that aspect of morality that D&D world often do

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron True enough, although the problem arises when players become uncomfortable with certain in-game scenarios and objectives

Simon H.

@BESW I see what you mean. I see racial prejudice as amoral, and D&D's universe seems to contain some of that, and that's why I used the word moral there.

BESW

21:15

I'm not thrilled with worlds where the authors decided entire groups of sapients are going to be inherently evil. It's an interesting thought experiment, perhaps, and there are a few books which manage it, but as an element of play I don't like it.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I think that the inherently evil creatures in D&D tend to be the denizens of certain plains (fiends). I think you may have read my answer on how you can raise a Black dragon to be good, though it's a tough uphill climb. Want a link?

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast I've seen it. Depends on your interpretation of the lore

BESW

But that's just a very specific corner of the reasons I stopped playing D&D.

David Coffron

@BESW I agree with that. D&D would be better without that factor, but it isn't a moral failing on part of the developers imo.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I was drawing on the old 'nature versus nurture' idea, the opening in the MM, and the Int/Cha/Wis scores of a dragon. Lino Frank's answer was also a good one.

Yuuki

21:16

As a side note, it's totally all right to accept that D&D's ruleset and settings don't deal with these issues very well and still play the game. I don't feel the need to only play "perfect" games. The important thing is recognizing that these issues exist and accepting that they exist.

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron A while ago I had mentioned a campaign where most of the party decided it was okay to enslave and brainwash a bunch of children of a different race. When I objected to this, a bunch of OOG arguments ensued and I felt very unwelcome, and I ultimately chose to leave the game.

BESW

@Yuuki Absolutely. Nothing is perfect in this world, and so it's not only okay but necessary to like imperfect things.

I just advocate liking them critically, which means staring their flaws in the face without flinching.

David Coffron

@MikeQ ive been running a campaign for my brothers this summer and they chose to spare the Kobolds since there were children their but kill the goblins since that group of goblins didn't have kids present (in Sunless Citadel from tales of the Yawning Portal)

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki Nicely said, Yuuki.

BESW

For myself, I found that the things I liked in D&D could also be found elsewhere where I was more comfortable with the surrounding environs.

Yuuki

21:18

I know D&D has a problem with the subconscious colonialism inherent in its settings. I still play the game and I still discuss it with other people. Being aware of a system's faults also helps prevent those system faults from subconsciously becoming your personal faults.

David Coffron

That was their choice based on OOG morality and I let it be because it didn't have a huge impact on the game (even though letting the evil Kobolds live is not exactly a good thing strictly speaking)

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron I guess the difference is, as a minority, I'm not comfortable roleplaying a scenario that encourages racial superiority

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron The level of violence in D&D as a general case far exceeds what you or I accept in our day to day lives. (same is true for a lot of cops shows/cop movies)

David Coffron

@BESW good. I'm glad you found a better option for yourself. I wish I could find a game other than d&d (i have my owm problems with the game) with people who.will play near me

BESW

@MikeQ Yeah, one of the problems with the "evil in game" argument is that most versions of D&D purposely leave alignment vague enough that players insert their own real-world philosophies into those terms.

David Coffron

21:20

@MikeQ it's not superiority per se. It's striving for good.

BESW

So even if the Thermian Argument weren't a problem, D&D's version of it would be.

@MikeQ Bankuei said something similar.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Arrgh, the way that two axis thing was implemented in 1e was an attempt to make it less vague, and IMO it's not been helpful in preventing what you mention. (Dragging real world philosophies into it)

> Brian Bulston Stanton had an interesting answer on this SE on how philosophy looks at D&D alignment and chokes. Or maybe gags. I'll try to find a link.

BESW

@DavidCoffron Yeah, I found that the best way to "find" a group that plays what I want to play is to find friends who are interested in those things and teach them about RPGs.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast I'd be interested in this if you find it.

David Coffron

@BESW I have no friends that aren't miles away online...

Mike Q

21:25

@DavidCoffron By wiping out the evil, lesser races and taking their valuables? Yeah, I'm not okay with that.

Yuuki

@BESW This is how you end up with a Discord server with a channel that consists solely of D&D memes and "oh, it would be cool if we had this...".

David Coffron

@MikeQ Fair enough. That's your prerogative.

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron ... Er, sorry. Touchy subject, I guess. I don't mean to accuse certain playstyles of badwrongfun.

Yuuki

And nothing else ever happens.

user362639

HELLO

BESW

21:25

13

A: Anyone know of a good generic moral/alignment tracking system?

To open, an amusing comic. As a philosopher, this question is extremely difficult. In order to make a philosophically sound system that actually has any kind of utility (D&D 3.5 makes me sad or giant frog.) In order to roll your own, I'll suggest a few simple toggles that you can configure for y...

8

A: What are the consequences of the new (5 choice) alignment system in 4e versus the (9 choice) system of earlier editions?

None whatsoever. First, let's debunk the moral and ethical philosophies by the law-chaos axis in 3rd ed. Taking from the inestimable Frank and K's Book of Fiends: Let's get this out in the open: Law and Chaos do not have any meaning under the standard D&D rules. We are aware that espe...

Simon H.

@Mustachachu HALLo

user362639

IM SORRY FOR LEAVING FOR SO LONG WENT IN POOL

Simon H.

@Mustachachu NO PROBLEM DUDE IS YOUR CAPS LOCK BROKEN?

David Coffron

@MikeQ I didn't take it that way. Just not your version of "goodrightfun"

BESW

@DavidCoffron I hear you. My weekly IRL gathering became a weekly "watching movies with Trogdor" and now we've got three or four semi-regular online attendees or we'd never play games at all.

user362639

21:27

ItS NoT bRoKe

Simon H.

@Mustachachu oh okay. we were just having a discussion about racial issues in D&D while you were gone.

user362639

I just realized @SimonH. is your profile picture fox

user362639

from star fox

Yuuki

No.

It is in fact Fox from Smash Bros.

user362639

:/

Simon H.

21:29

@Mustachachu McCloud. Is yours tohru?

user362639

mabey...

Simon H.

@Yuuki The only one people care about nowadays... =(

Yuuki

@SimonH. I think there's a new Star Fox coming soon, right?

Or was that a spiritual successor?

Star Fox is still better than F-Zero though.

Although, tbf, I honestly can't think of anything they could do with F-Zero that isn't just "oh look, we just remade F-Zero with fancy graphics".

user362639

FALCON PUNCH

Simon H.

@Yuuki Supposedly a racing game from Retro Studios. Also, he's gonna be in a skylanders-esque dlc-loaded 'game' coming out soon on Switch.

Yuuki

21:31

HD remakes seem to be reserved for Legend of Zelda as far as Nintendo goes.

David Coffron

@Yuuki I want my 1st gen remakes still...

This weird eevee pikachu thing isn't what I wanted

Yuuki

Eh, I like that Game Freak themselves are actually trying something different.

user362639

I'm excited for adventures league tomorrow

Simon H.

@DavidCoffron Let's Go is not Generation 8, it's a Pokemon Go tie-in

I was relieved when I heard that

Yuuki

Sun and Moon actually felt like a new Pokemon game rather than a remake of older Pokemon games.

Mike Q

21:34

@DavidCoffron Have you played in systems/settings that have these things but lack the the pretense that the players are good? Not necessarily an "evil campaign", but more like a setting that acknowledges its biases? (Example: 40k's Imperium of Man)

BESW

@MikeQ Fate of Agaptus.

user362639

Oh yall are talking about the nintendo eevee, and pikachu game for switch

Simon H.

@Yuuki Sun and Moon gave me hope for pokemon's future. The 3d games were terrible in my opinion but sun and moon shook up the formula.

BESW

Heck, it's built into Bubblegumshoe.

user362639

with the pokeball thing for pokemon go

Simon H.

21:36

Yeah that's the dumbest gimmick I've ever seen.

user362639

yeah...

Yuuki

Eh, it's not required.

Simon H.

My real issue is that the graphics look just like the previous 3d games with blocky terrain and everything - and we're returning to gen 1 again.

Mike Q

@BESW I thought Bubblegumshoe was the 1-player-1-GM detective system. How does that fit?

BESW

No, that's Cthulhu Confidential.

Simon H.

21:38

There's no real value in them unless you never played the 3d games or first gen.

user362639

I haven't really played it but seems more of something that goes "hey if you have this add- on you can take pokemon from the phone to the switch"

BESW

CC is Gumshoe One-2-One; Bubblegumshoe is also a Gumshoe hack, but with a strong focus on social interactions and pressures because teenagers.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW Thanks for those two links, but I was thinking of another of Brian's points. Might be one on meta, I'll go and poke around.

Yuuki

I find it interesting that they're doing away with battling wild Pokemon.

You still battle NPCs, IIRC, but you don't battle wild Pokemon for experience.

KorvinStarmast

@MikeQ Traveller, original, I do not recall having alignment in it.

BESW

21:40

PsychMedia - Pokemon: Empowerment and Self-Efficacy

►

Yuuki

On that rot druid question, there's always tongues.

You could speak ROT13.

Mike Q

@Yuuki Or Create Water could eventually create fungus, over a period of time

Yuuki

Although I guess you could just speak normally and have ROT26.

Twice the rot, twice the fun(gus)!

BESW

@MikeQ I've known folks on Saipan who got mushrooms in their beds after being gone for a long weekend.

David Coffron

@MikeQ not yet. All I've played is a homebrew system where morality wasn't important (my dad's creation) and various editions of D&D

@SimonH. which is why I want gen 8

Simon H.

21:47

@DavidCoffron Pokemon games made me feel like I was going on a real adventure when I was younger. No other games really gave me that feeling.

BESW

In my experience the best "morality" RPG systems don't measure morality. They mechanize motives, risks, rewards.

Simon H.

I don't like where the series was headed before, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't excited for what comes next.

BESW

The morality emerges in the spaces between different mechanics and their interplay with the story, rather than being explicit in a particular mechanic.

Mike Q

@SimonH. All I know is, I'm #thankful for Team Skull. They were a much-needed breath of fresh air.

Yuuki

The best "morality" RPG systems have nothing to do with morality at all. New Vegas's reputation system was and is far better than the karma system.

Simon H.

21:49

@MikeQ Oh heck yeah, after team flare that felt great.

Yuuki

And even then, I have yet to find an RPG morality system that doesn't punish you in some way for being "in-between" rather than extreme towards one end of the spectrum or the other.

David Coffron

@Yuuki how does 5e punish you for being in between?

Yuuki

Hmm... I may have segued into video games because Pokemon.

:|

My bad.

David Coffron

Alignment only comes up for artifacts and rakshasas.

That's hardly a punishment since many games will never involve them

Simon H.

I've heard horror stories of DMs punishing players for not acting in their respective alignment extremes.

BESW

21:53

@Yuuki Fate of Agaptus has a fun interplay with the gods: if you displease them too much they'll try to smite you... and if you please them too much they'll try to help. But the gods are so incompetent that you don't want any attention from them of any kind.

Simon H.

I think that could hurt roleplaying because it punishes nuance and character building.

BESW

So it's a Fate game (where characters tend to stand out and be remarkable) with a subplot about trying to be mediocre in the eyes of the gods.

Mike Q

@BESW Does gaining favor with certain gods cause disfavor with their competing gods?

Simon H.

@BESW That sounds excellent.

BESW

@MikeQ Not really, the gods pretty much stay in their own turf.

@SimonH. There's a whole society built around promoting the most mediocre people to positions of power while the weirdos and exceptional folks stay commoners.

They have the most boring religious ceremonies possible, in the hopes that their god will be pleased to be worshipped, but not interested in showing up.

KorvinStarmast

21:56

@BESW It works out that I was remembering a question Brian asked at philosophy.se. Thanks for the assist on the links in any case.

Yuuki

@BESW I'm imagining getting the sacraments of a god just slightly off so they're not overjoyed with you but not such a deviation that they get angry.

Simon H.

@BESW Wouldn't having positions of power make them exceptional, in their own way?

BESW

@Yuuki Yup!

@SimonH. Hence needing the most boring, average, mediocre people in those positions, to balance it out.

KorvinStarmast

@BESW descriptive of that game style: is "subversive" accurate or does that not fit? The premise seems to be "stay under the radar" as a general mode.

Yuuki

"In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Poltergeist..."

BESW

21:57

(This particular society was nearly wiped out a long time ago when their god took pity on them for being lost and starving. He appeared to them with food and water... forgetting that's he's a massive pillar of fire.)

KorvinStarmast

At least the dinner was not served cold

BESW

@KorvinStarmast Mostly for that particular society in the game. The other societies have other ways of dealing with the gods.

But yeah, the party as a whole has an 'attention of the gods' mechanic.

KorvinStarmast

Sounds interesting. I'm off, a friend needs a team member in a trivia contest. best wishes to all

BESW

Fate of Agaptus as a whole feels to me like a good D&D alternative.

It's got the "adventuring party in fantasy world with different groups of sapients at odds with each other" thing going on, lots of Old Stuff To ~~Loot~~ Explore, some robust and flavorful combat mechanics.

trogdor

yeah I really want to try Agaptus eventually

Mike Q

22:07

@BESW What about mechanical stuff like classes and magic?

Yuuki

The key is to cast Fireball but not cast it too well.

BESW

Magic is in there, yeah. It's associated with a kind of "frenzy" mechanic every character uses to pump themselves up before battle.

user15026

@BESW This delights me as a thing. Like literally handflaps of delight.

BESW

Instead of classes, you pick from a set of aspects reflecting your character's role in their society.

For example, as an Elvorix you can choose from
Conformity is Safety
Bookworm
Beacon of Civilization
Bucking the Trend
Priest of [your deity here]

Simon H.

@Ash gregg-level handflaps?

Shalvenay

22:12

hey there @SimonH.

Simon H.

@Shalvenay Hello shalvenay.

trogdor

@Ash it is a hilarious level of worship XD

or kind of worship I guess as the case may be

BESW

@Ash Then there's the Vidaar, an illiterate seafaring warrior society that considers entering the priesthood one of the bravest things a person could possibly do.

Priests are admired and respected.... from a distance.

user15026

I don't know why this whole idea of like "we like you but not touching us"

BESW

Partly this is to avoid any blessings the gods might choose to bestow on a priest, and partly because the priests use very smelly cheese in their fortune-telling (it is also a holy weapon).

Seriously though Fate of Agaptus is so great. It's like if the Muppets did Game of Thrones.

Mike Q

22:23

@BESW Like this ?

trogdor

@BESW oh my God best description

@MikeQ sort of but not entirely

Shalvenay

@SimonH. how're things going?

BESW

Sesame Street isn't quite as grimsical as the Muppet ouvre as a whole.

user362639

ＣｕｒｓｅｄＩｍａｇｅｓ (152 ꜱʜɪᴛᴘᴏꜱᴛꜱ) ᴅᴇʟᴜxᴇ!

►

Simon H.

@Shalvenay kinda hectic, how about you>

user15026

22:40

@BESW wait wait wait wait there's smelly cheese involved?

user15026

THIS JUST GETS MORE MAGICAL

Shalvenay

@SimonH. alright here

Simon H.

@Shalvenay that's good to hear.

trogdor

@Ash it depends on who is doing the ritual but yes

user15026

Good game, then. I like cheese.

trogdor

22:54

lol

Cheese is pretty great, not sure about the smelly kind myself

But if it's my character that has to put up with that and not me then 10/10 would subject them to it again

user362639

23:12

? what is up with the cheese?

user362639

not sure whats going on.

Ben

@Mustachachu Everyone is talking about cheese. It seems.

I like it with ham in an omelette, myself.

trogdor

lol

user362639

BuT WhY

BESW

In the game Fate of Agaptus, "the clergy of Akka-Maas is famous for its use of foul-smelling ylark cheese, which they use in lieu of incense. It also serves as the base for augury and as ammunition in war."

That's what we were talking about.

Ben

23:14

What's not to love about cheese?

user362639

:/

Ben

Well… that's one, I guess.

user362639

They use it as ammunation

Luke Sommers

Back

Ben

Left!

Haha... thought I was gonna say "front" dincha

roll for dex-based bluff

d20

Dice Service

23:23

15

user362639

@LukeSommers HELLO

Ben

not too shabby

Luke Sommers

@Mustachachu Sup

user362639

:3

Luke Sommers

I need a name for my schizophrenic wizard...

Ben

23:24

@LukeSommers Todd

Luke Sommers

Why would I name him Todd?

Ben

Or Theodore, depending on your level of immersion

user362639

siphon the schizophrenic

user362639

I don't know

user362639

christopher

Ben

23:26

Well, I don't see why not? Usually people aren't named after their disabilities

Lol

user362639

:3

Luke Sommers

His "family" is a deceased dwarf and a deceased elf

His "brothers"

Ben

So you're after a more Elvish/Dwarvish name?

And what race is he?

Luke Sommers

He's a variant human

Not sure what kind of name I want

Ben

@LukeSommers I had a Human Raised by Dwarves. Named him Doug

Rubiksmoose

23:30

:45826494 oh wow I didn't notice that was Tohru. I thought I would hate that anime but I seriously loved it. My wife as well.

Ben

Then I adapted it to Dhurroug

user362639

:3

Luke Sommers

@Ben Interesting. I tend to not use common, modern names out of habit

Ben

I do that with a lot of my characters though. Had a Dragonbron named Toby - then adapted it to "Tobrinn"

Luke Sommers

Gotcha.

Maybe something to do with Einherjar?

Ben

23:34

I usually just go with fantasynamegenerators.com for fantasy names

BESW

@LukeSommers Ah, yes, the Tiffany Problem.

Luke Sommers

@BESW Meaning?

Ben

@BESW In my mind, the "Tiffany Problem" sounds a little out of context here lol

BESW

In medieval England, "Tiffany" was a common nickname for Theophania. Likewise "Chad" was a pretty common name in the 7th century.

[rummages for sources]

Shalvenay

@LukeSommers that people think the name "Tiffany" is a modern invention when it really goes back quite a long ways

Luke Sommers

23:38

Ah

Ben

Oh so the opposite of my thing?

BESW

"Mary" dates from the bronze age. "Candice" is a latinzed version of a 2000+ year old Kushite word for queen.

Luke Sommers

How about Damocles?

Damocles Mynata?

BESW

And of course we aren't talking about reality: you can name them whatever you like so long as you own it.

> I think "realism" is often used by authors and readers as a way to say "my most cherished biases." - Jaycee Jarvis

Luke Sommers

Is referencing the Sword of Damocles okay?

Ben

23:44

I had one character named "Dunn". Because he was revived through cybernetics (though the process wiped his memory), and he named himself that because that's what the guy said when he woke up "And done"

user362639

the history of names by BESW

Ben

Though he was illiterate so no one really knew how to spell his name

BESW

@Ben I probably would've gone with "Antoine."

@LukeSommers Okay with who? If you're naming a character for a TTRPG group then it's pretty much up to the people in the group what's okay and what's not.

Ben

@BESW Probably haha. Though I have a chronic case of "Fill out character sheet... come up with backstory after session 9 or 10"

BESW

@Ben Ah, I like doing that.

Shalvenay

23:47

yeah -- the Tiffany Problem is two-edged -- on one hand, it can be very helpful to have your character names not overlap with the modern world (at least for me it is -- it avoids weird cross-confusion in my head), OTOH, you are very right @BESW that most modern names have lots more history behind them than you would believe

Luke Sommers

@BESW You said "As long as you own it", I didn't know if you meant by law or something

BESW

Ah. I mean, so long as you take responsibility for the choice and its consequences if any.

Luke Sommers

Gotcha

BESW

You're playing a game with friends. Unless you're publicising or monetizing it, it's pretty much just your group of friends that matter in making these decisions because they're the only ones being affected by it.

Sharing the game with a wider audience changes who's affected by it, and so changes how you should make decisions about it.

Luke Sommers

I'm just making characters, I don't have a group right now

BESW

23:50

Ah, that's difficult.

Ben

Could name him "Jesus", but in another language, and just say it's pronounced "Clarence"

Luke Sommers

I've been playing Pathfinder for a while, not having ranks is strange

Ben

Sidenote: I do have a problem where I always assume a person is male. But I very much enjoy the fact that the Pathfinder PHB refers to Druids as female.

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