TRPG General Chat

kviiri

14:01

Monster Hearts is a rather special game in theme

No system's suited for everything and everyone but I'd exercise particular caution with that one because it deals with very intimate and possibly painful issues. Same paging is more important than usual there

goodguy5

I'm excited to look through this dominon rpg

SPavel

@goodguy5 Does it model all the Dominions (Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc)?

goodguy5

ha

I think it's just "open source dnd12"

nitsua60

14:25

@BESW I have a question about practices in the design/graphic arts field. I've been working with our in-house person on something, and the iterations she sends me are named things like "PROJECTNAME1," "PROJECTNAME2," "PROJECTNAME3," etc. Yesterday she sent me "PROJECTNAME_FINAL."
So... I don't get to ask for any more changes, right?

=D

In RPG news, I failed as a GM last night: I really should have killed the PC, but I fudged and let them live. I woke with regret.

goodguy5

@nitsua60 imo, all iterative files should be named with PROJECTNAME_<date in the format of YYYYMMDD>

but that could be because I'm a programmer

Sir Cinnamon

@goodguy5 All iterative files should be named "PROJECTNAME" and tracked by versioning software backed up on a remote server

:P

goodguy5

I said I was a programmer, not a data specialist

Anaphory

@SirCinnamon That. Nearly always that. Except when working with humanities scholars, they are allowed to have dates, because everything else is too much hassle.

@goodguy5 Even more so. Data specialists need to be able to point to one specific version, which a date is enough for. Programmers need to be able to track changes to see when a bug was introduced, that requires something more clever than tracking dates, so you can compare things easily and have close no overhead for tracking versions.

Sir Cinnamon

Plus what if it changes twice in one day D:

Tiggerous

14:38

@nitsua60 I'm part of an in house creative department at my place of work. I'm a copywriter, but I work quite closely with five designers. We number drafts in the way you stated. Nothing is ever marked final until the stakeholder gives their approval.

goodguy5

Programmers don't track "files". We track checkins ;)

also, I'm being... flippant

doppelgreener

it is getting windy in the bird zone

i repeat, it is getting windy in the bird zone, over

Tiggerous

@nitsua60 In this instance, either there's been a miscommunication and they think you've approved the proof, or they're giving a subtle hint that they expect you to approve this version.

@nitsua60 However, where I work, as long as it hasn't gone to print, you can always ask for more changes. Whether you get them depends on how important / trivial they are and how late you're asking.

NautArch

I had no idea (or maybe I did) that questions on hold can accept an answer.

doppelgreener

@NautArch they can

it's pretty normal that if someone gets a question closed after getting some answers, they just accept one of them because they might as well

NautArch

14:44

@doppelgreener I may ask a Meta about that. if we've decided that the question is on hold for whatever reason, it seems odd to allow an answer to be accepted.

doppelgreener

@NautArch it's not up to us; question owners have sole control over the accepted answer. also, the fact it may be off topic / unclear doesn't preclude that an answer winds up actually solving their problem.

NautArch

@doppelgreener I can see that. Just weird that we've said "this question isn't yet stack ready" but we'll allow an answer for it to be accepted.

Rubiksmoose

15:07

I've actually thought similarly

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I get keeping voting open (sort of), but accepting an answer seems odd.

Alphaeus

morning folks

kviiri

hi

Rubiksmoose

Morning!

NautArch

howdy howdy @Alphaeus

Alphaeus

15:11

Hey guys (and or girls), how's it going?

The Oracle

0

Q: Why are Questions marked as ON HOLD allowed to have an answer chosen?

If the community has marked a Question as On Hold (for whatever reason), it seems odd that we can allow the Querent to choose an answer. Basically, if the question isn't stack ready yet, why do we allow an answer for it to be chosen? If anything, that's bypassing the On Hold aspect. While answer...

discussion

kviiri

Pretty lazy around here, I've been watching the eagle instead of working on my thesis

Alphaeus

lol, well, trust me -- you will get the thesis done eventually, but being lazy sometimes is necessary to keep you sane while you are doing it.

SPavel

"watching the eagle" would be a great euphemism for daydreaming in a nomadic steppe culture

or getting high instead of minding the livestock and zoning out

And then the other goatherds quickly shoot down some vultures and pose them around you, so when you wake up, it looks like they are getting ready to eat you

Alphaeus

lol

"Watching the eagle" would be a great euphemism for anything

I think that's going to be my new explanation for the next day or two

"What are you doing?"

"Watching the eagle."

Ofc, living near DC and working for the gov, people will probably think I'm doing some covert operation.

"Pstt, I'm Watching the Eagle. Keep track of the Goose, over."

SPavel

15:25

@Alphaeus I'm sure there's a ton of "watching the eagle" by the government bureaucrats

Alphaeus

@SPavel yeah, you're right mate. ;) They're all watching the eagle

GreySage

15:49

@Alphaeus Hey, if you could get paid to watch the eagle, you would too.

SPavel

Eagle has good lighting right now

kviiri

Yep

Lens flare!

SPavel

"Estonian eagle" Instagram filter

Alphaeus

16:10

@GreySage Well, I may not watch the eagle, but I herd the cats

SPavel

But do you cut the mustard?

GreySage

16:24

@SPavel Did the mustard come from an Alchemy Jug?

NautArch

i think i just made a terrible lunch mistake

Simon H.

mustard and cheddar?

SPavel

@NautArch Did you eat mustard out of an Alchemy Jug?

Mike Q

@NautArch Did you accidentally eat a co-worker?

NautArch

@SPavel I got the Jamaican Jerk taco.

my mouth is still on fire

Simon H.

16:33

oOF

SPavel

@NautArch Next time, don't get tacos from the jamaican jerk

NautArch

@SPavel well played

SPavel

Also - milk is the best way to quell mouth-fire

Or yoghurt

NautArch

@SPavel yup, and i've got neither

so i had a doughnut

closest thing to bread we had in the office

SPavel

lol

NautArch

16:35

and i took a preventative immodium :)

getting old sucks

SPavel

Sounds like you should have just had the donut for lunch

I can respect a lunch donut

Simon H.

donut + coffee

SPavel

Half the time, my 1:1 with my boss takes place at the coffee shop down the street where they serve an amazing carrot cake

twitter.com/ghweldon/status/984173211519766528 this is amazing

The frustrating thing is that Manhattan has so many amazing food options, but they are not in the same place as the office parks

In midtown, real estate is optimized for crappy delis and generic soup/salad chains

Simon H.

there's a 45-46 second delay on the eaglecam

just makes you think

NautArch

@SPavel that just made my day

SPavel

16:41

@SimonH. Do you have eyes on the eagle?

NautArch

@SPavel east side, west side or smack in the middle?

Simon H.

@SPavel affirmative, sir, but it may not be where I see it

SPavel

@NautArch Thankfully not west

kviiri

The majestic eagle is watching the sunset

SPavel

The entire stretch of the 40s and 30s west of 6th is Worse Hell

Simon H.

16:42

that's so patriotic man

GreySage

@kviiri The majestic eagle is taking a nap

NautArch

@SPavel way back in the day i used to work at 33rd and lex. Spent a lot of lunches eating in the tudor city park.

SPavel

@NautArch That's not a bad area, I'm a few blocks up from there

NautArch

@SPavel 'fancy' lunch days were going down to rio grande

SPavel

ew, 3rd ave Murray Hill

NautArch

16:46

@SPavel hehe. I lived down at 23rd between 2nd and 3rd. I miss walking to work.

THere was a pretty good irish pub down 3rd called Molly's Shebeen. Not sure if that's still around.

SPavel

Yep it's still there

Though in that area I prefer Cannibal

NautArch

IT is! And they've got a food truck now, too.

@SPavel definitely wasn't there when I was.

SPavel

I was looking for an apartment in that area but everything is crap and expensive

NautArch

well, i don't think it was.

SPavel

Ended up in Upper East Side, 15 minute train ride to work and more space for less price

NautArch

16:48

I lived above a cheap chinese food restaurant and an empanada place. We were just down the street from the new SVA buildling. We had a roofdeck, which was awesome. Until they built a highrise next door.

SPavel

Nice

NautArch

and by roofdeck, i mean a roof that had a deck on it. It wasn't fancy.

We held a huge party up there and I strung speaker wire up from my room on the 2nd floor to the roof (about 3 stories up). Hooked it up to an old speaker which apparently couldn't handle it. Set it on fire.

SPavel

When I was helping my gf look for a place, we went to see this studio near Barclays Center that advertised "private outdoor space" - turned out that it was basically a utility closet with a fridge shoved inside, and a door that let out onto the roof

The landlord "let us know" that if any work had to be done on the roof, the workmen would go through the "apartment"

Then we walked over to an apartment on the waterfront, which had sagged so much that there was a good 2-3 inch gap on one side of the window between it and the frame

The broker said - no worries, the heat from the radiator is very strong

NautArch

@SPavel I also lived up at flatbush and 8th ave. Moved out during Barclay's construction before it was finished.

SPavel

That's a pretty good area now

Good pokemon spawns at Grand Army Plaza

Simon H.

16:53

eagle has moved

GreySage

YOU CAN SEE THE EGG

Sir Cinnamon

hello egg

NautArch

@SPavel I looked out over the plaza from my bedroom window and the city skyline from my living room. Kinda miss that apt. ALthough the year I moved in was the first year they stopped doing fireworks displays on the east river.

SPavel

@NautArch One of my friends lives in a high rise in LIC, they still do fireworks on the East River

NautArch

@SPavel I think they brought it back after I left.

SPavel

16:57

@NautArch Did you pick a fight with Giuliani, so he suspended fireworks in retaliation?

Did that motivate citizens to literally run you out of town

is that what happened

Ryan

@SevenSidedDie @doppelgreener it really sends mixed messages when my question receives multiple upvotes and answers including from a moderator only to be hammered by another moderator.

NautArch

@SPavel no comment

@Ryan what question?

SPavel

@Ryan Moderator cold war, it'll pass

Doppelgreener's economy is unsustainable and will fail any day now

Ryan

9

Q: What are strategies to roleplay through a saving throw my GM must make?

As I try really hard to always be improving my in-game persona through better roleplaying, one area I find difficult is when my abilities cause the GM to roll a saving throw. Are there any strategies either I can take, or try to talk to her about, to make it a bit more seamless? For example, wh...

spells system-agnostic roleplaying

SevenSidedDie

@Ryan We mods aren't a monolith, so it doesn't mean anything.

kviiri

17:02

That's one of the 4e things I think 5e should've kept - in 4e, if something's an attack, then it's an attack.

NautArch

@Ryan I don't know enough about other systems, but this seems legit to me. Asking how to blend RP with tabletop requirements.

SevenSidedDie

Notably though there are three other non-mods on that hold too. It may be more important to engage the community on what the (perceived) trouble with that question is, rather than the mods.

GreySage

As much as we may look/act like it sometimes, the entirety of RPG.SE isn't a giant hivemind. We just play one on TV.

Ryan

@SevenSidedDie I brought it up to see if you all discussed it in mod chat before closing it. I have no interest in editing or reopening it. It's not too broad as evident by multiple upvoted answers. I'm going to mark one correct and move on with my life. Just saying that it sends some real mixed signals.

Simon H.

It's a good question. It's not broad, it's just really tough to answer, and it clearly applies to any system that has roleplaying elements.

GreySage

17:06

@Ryan You're getting mixed signals because there are mixed signalers.

Ryan

Seems some believe its system dependent and some don't. I'm not going to engage and argue which of those sides is right

SevenSidedDie

Oh, scratch that. The hold is explicitly in the comments because of removing the D&D 5e tag. So, that's something to consider.

Ryan

I didnt add that tag, someone else did after numerous people had already answered

and others asked me why it was added, expressing disagreement with it

kviiri

I think that question works better as a system specific one

NautArch

@Ryan and we have a specific rule here NOT to add system tags without the asker confirming or doing it themselves.

@kviiri Are there systems where there would be a different answer?

kviiri

17:09

@NautArch Possibly, I dunno.

SevenSidedDie

Unless you have lots of experience with 10+ different RPGs and can judge what depends on system and what doesn't, it may be worth taking the lack of reopen votes as a large signal that there is broad consensus that it being D&D 5e matters.

kviiri

But that question is intimately tied to the mechanics of 5e and therefore I think it ought to be asked as a 5e question.

SevenSidedDie

@NautArch (It was confirmed as 5e being played.)

Mike Q

@kviiri I don't think so. The example in the scenario was 5e, but the question could apply to any system or game

goodguy5

It may be being asked about 5e, but it's not a 5e question

At narrowest, it's a dungeons-and-dragons question

kviiri

17:11

@MikeQ And likewise, have a different answer for any game.

SevenSidedDie

Not really. There are systems where the question has very different answers. My own answer was only written after I knew it was D&D 5e.

goodguy5

It also works for Fate. Slapdash.....

Simon H.

How is this specific at all? It's asking how to demonstrate to the DM what's being done without breaking character. If the system has roleplay and mechanics, this could easily apply to it.

goodguy5

Gurps, as well, I think

SevenSidedDie

(This may be an issue for meta. Chat doesn't have policy standing due to lack of visibility.)

goodguy5

17:14

man, I haven't played gurps since college...

Simon H.

What's a single system this can't apply to, and we can start from there.

goodguy5

Is there a reason now that .... "any10" or whatever it's called?

Sir Cinnamon

Has anyone suggested having spell cards, and as you describe your spell you play the card and banish your dm to the shadow realm like youre the top duelist

goodguy5

XD

Simon H.

Wait, I forgot how to get to Meta

this UI is confusing me

Mike Q

17:18

@SimonH. Fast travel

GreySage

@SimonH. RollForShoes, narrative is the mechanics, there are no saving throws (or rather, EVERYTHING is a saving throw, so there is no ambiguity)

NautArch

@SevenSidedDie is there an example of where it doesn't work?

i just don't know enough about different systems. But it seems every system has mechanics and every system has (the opportunity for) roleplay.

Simon H.

If RollForShoes doesn't work, then is it acceptable to get a full list of every RPG with roleplay and separate mechanics?

doppelgreener

BLADES AGAINST DARKNESS is now in open beta. This is a Blades hack about weird dungeon crawling in a fantasy-western setting. I've played this a few times and am in love with it! Check it out and give it a try. https://twitter.com/mummylaundering/status/983889447669325824

Tweeted by john_harper on April 11, 2018 at 7:15 PM

goodguy5

I was thinking about rollforshoes and if that would work or not

SPavel

17:22

@doppelgreener Why is this being tweeted by Lenin though

doppelgreener

@SimonH. There's thousands of RPGs. Main site doesn't do game recommendations, we can name a few to you, but you're unlikely to get a full list of anything.

Mike Q

I think the underlying question is a universal communication problem. If you want to communicate something to someone, and you use a language that they don't understand, then they probably won't understand you.

Simon H.

@doppelgreener No, I'm just looking for tags for Ryan's question

It was put on hold while they look for better tags

doppelgreener

This is asking about how to execute a system specific feature (saving throws) and negotiate through the potentially complex interactions involved in such a mechanic. We need to know about the system being used in order to advise about it, and how its saving throws work, to understand what needs to be communicated how and at what stage. That it could potentially apply to other systems doesn't mean we should not ask the question to be clear about their situation to answerers. — doppelgreener ♦ 6 mins ago

SPavel

Feels like 90% of meta questions are tag-related

NautArch

17:24

@GreySage so there is no gap between roleplay language and the mechanics involved? YOu speak in mechanic terms or is that the roleplay language is 'translated' by the DM without a mechanic to refer to?

SPavel

And the other are complaining-about-mods

Therefore we should get rid of tags, mods, and meta

NautArch

@SPavel and Stars.

SPavel

Stars are not related to meta

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Okay, that's a good point. But if I asked a question about a similar miscommunication, but with a different mechanic in a different system, would it be considered a duplicate?

doppelgreener

@MikeQ No

kviiri

17:26

I once asked whether I should change a question regarding dice math for Dungeon World to a more generic question because a lot of games use the same roll. IIRC then the decision was that I shouldn't and I think it makes sense

Mike Q

@doppelgreener How about same mechanic, different system? Like roleplaying spellcasting in 3.x, PF, 13th age, etc

SPavel

Just because the dice have the same probability for numbers doesn't mean that the numbers mean the same thing

Sir Cinnamon

The eagle is preening its wings

doppelgreener

@MikeQ If it's fundamentally the same issue and the systems share the exact same mechanic working the exact same way such that all answers to the previous question fully apply, probably yes that would be a duplicate

GreySage

@NautArch You speak in roleplay language ("I do x" or "My character does x"), and then you roll some dice and the DM rolls some dice, and what the DM rolls is independent of what you roll. You roll based on your mechanics (your skill level), DM rolls whatever he thinks is good (based on narrative).

kviiri

17:28

@SPavel Well, depending on your exact definition for "the same thing", they do in DW and AW.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Well that's my point. The details may vary a bit by system and situation, but the underlying issue is fundamentally the same.

kviiri

Or don't mean the same thing even within the same system.

Simon H.

@doppelgreener I understand that. What I'm asking is, if the answers work for multiple systems, should we use the system-agnostic tag or should we tag every RPG it applies to?

SPavel

@kviiri No things are the same thing

doppelgreener

@MikeQ You're implying all saving throws in all systems always work exactly the same and it doesn't matter what system they're using. Sorry, not buying it. I want us to know their system.

SPavel

17:29

Saving throws don't even work the same across editions of D&D

NautArch

@GreySage Are you rolling using specific skills or is it just a standard die number against their standard die number without modifiers or requirements?

doppelgreener

@SimonH. Neither. They tell us what game they're experiencing this issue in. We tag it with that system. That's all.

kviiri

@SPavel Well using such logic we should've closed the question as too broad, because no two rolls in DW would be the same either despite them all using the same 2d6 + bonus and the same target numbers of 7 for soft hit and 10 for hard hit.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Not exactly. I was implying that a system-agnostic answer of (communicate their intent using language that the GM understands) could apply

Ryan

@doppelgreener what system has a saving throw so radically different as to alter the foundation of the question?

SPavel

17:31

@kviiri Working as designed, "Close as too broad" is a super-downvote

GreySage

@NautArch You roll xd6, where x is the level of the skill that applies to what you are doing (lowest skill is "Do Anything 1"). You compare your total to the DM's total. There are no modifiers.

doppelgreener

@MikeQ except that's not how we handle questions here. People ask us about their specific situation. They tell us their specific situation's details. We don't tag based on what it could potentially apply to.

NautArch

@GreySage And it doesn't matter for the DM to know what you are rolling with (they just need the #) and the DM only has to supply their number to compare it against?

doppelgreener

@Ryan Why is this an issue compared to telling us your system?

Seriously, I don't get that. Why would anyone be fighting to withhold information about the author's circumstances?

Ryan

@doppelgreener I play in more than one system and all have saving throws that this question applies to. You've yet to tell me a system with a saving throw that doesn't

doppelgreener

17:32

@Ryan Describe them then.

In your question, mention the games you're playing.

Ryan

You're avoiding what I asked

GreySage

@NautArch Nope and yup. There are different schools of thought about how the DM decides how many dice to roll, but in general (from what I've seen), its based on the difficulty of the task, not how good the PC is at doing it.

NautArch

@GreySage So in the case for Roll for Shoes, you really don't have to explain what skill you are using beyond your narrative description and the DM doesn't need to know either.

GreySage

@NautArch Exactly

NautArch

This is a use-case that shows the question isn't system agnostic because there is a system that doesn't need it.

doppelgreener

17:35

Different editions of D&D, especiallly 4e, handle saving throws at different times with different mechanics and information and behaviour attached to how and whether they succeed or fail. They involve different information needing to be communicated back and forth. That's just the one system. You've invoked a system specific feature. You tell us what system specifically that feature is from. Then we answer.

NautArch

Also, that's cool! @GreySage

GreySage

@NautArch It is indeed.

doppelgreener

It's hubris to say "nope, this applies to all systems, all of them, doesn't matter. I'll just make the answerers rely on assumptions about what's going on for me." It's also not helpful and a distraction to refuse to inform the people trying to resolve your situation what your situation is.

David Coffron

@Ryan if your question applies to multiple systems in your eyes, just ask the question a second time for the other system. You may even get different answers since many systems have subtle (and some not so subtle) differences in how saving throws are applied.

Ryan

"Please edit the question to limit it to a specific problem with enough detail to identify an adequate answer." - would you then argue that all of the answers currently received are inadequate? @doppelgreener

Simon H.

17:37

If the same question was asked about PF, it wouldn't be a duplicate?

doppelgreener

@DavidCoffron right now it's fine to just mention what the systems are in the question. If there's an issue around major differences that's material enough to warrant that, we can sort that out in comments.

Ryan

@DavidCoffron and doppelgreener already said those secondary questions would be probably closed as a duplicate

doppelgreener

@Ryan This isn't about the answers.

Ryan

@doppelgreener its about the close reason

David Coffron

@Ryan they would be closed as duplicates if there is no fundamental differences (the Democratic approach to close votes would mean multiple people would recognize that the systems are similar enough and then you have your answer

kviiri

17:38

Bounded accuracy rocks

Ryan

further its about the tagging. "Not related to any one particular system or rules. You want solutions to the question that are not directly tied to a game's mechanics. " - this gives me, the asker, direct control over what I'm seeking. I am seeking broad solutions that are applicable across games.

doppelgreener

I've described the reason I closed it.

kviiri

Reading 4e monster manual, Epic tier monsters have AC in the 40's...

David Coffron

@Ryan then your question should not mention saving throws as that is a game mechanic

Simon H.

@DavidCoffron so it will be tagged with ONE system and when it's asked about multiple similar systems, those questions will be closed? seems problematic.

David Coffron

17:40

@SimonH. Then people with enough expertise in the systems who identify the need for both questions as non-duplicates will vote to reopen with arguments to that end

doppelgreener

Y'all, tags just describe the question. The author is using some systems, they can describe those in the question and we can work out how to tag that after the fact.

Mike Q

@doppelgreener What if the asker explicitly allows a system-agnostic solution (e.g., if Ryan edits the question and says a system-agnostic answer is okay)? Would the question still need to be closed even if it doesn't have a system tag?

doppelgreener

@MikeQ I would close it as too broad, asking for a system agnostic solution of a system specific feature.

> You should only ask practical, answerable questions based on actual problems that you face. — rpg.stackexchange.com/help/dont-ask

Ryan

@doppelgreener then I want you to acknowledge you're saying all current answers are inadequate. You can't have that close reason and viewpoint and accept or upvote any current answers.

doppelgreener

@Ryan I'm not.

David Coffron

17:44

@Ryan answers are not voted solely based on whether they answer the question. Good frame challenge answers deserve upvotes too for example

Ryan

@doppelgreener not what?

Mike Q

@doppelgreener Fair enough. But the asker is the one who chooses which answer to accept - doesn't that mean they have discretion on whether an answer is adequate, even if it's system-agnostic?

doppelgreener

Man, that's a boilerplate general-purpose template.

I'm not saying that, nor am I going to acknowledge saying what I'm not saying.

@MikeQ Yes. That doesn't mean we can't decide the question isn't providing enough information and close it.

SPavel

@MikeQ The Stack as a whole determines if a question and answer is acceptable quality to be on the Stack.

nitsua60

@Tiggerous Yeah, that was my joking interpretation =)

SPavel

17:47

The asker can accept any question, even one that the Stack considers low quality, that's not really important in the grand scheme of things. The value of the Stack is not to the asker or to the answerer, but to the hundreds of other people with the same question

3

nitsua60

^^

277

Q: We're working on a new stat to help convey the reach of your posts here

We've got a new statistic on the shiny new Profile Page Prototype. It's not perfect yet. And we did a pretty crap job of explaining what it's all about! Let's talk. What you do here isn't just about solving one person's problem. A while back, a user contacted us about his friend's account. His...

discussion profile-page feedback people-reached

Mike Q

@SPavel I thought that is what upvotes and downvotes are for.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose discuss here on Xanathar's optionalness or create a new room?

nitsua60

More on Spavel's comment there ^^, esp. at "You've got to get this to get us"

> See, once you realize that it's not just about the one asker, or the four voters, but rather the fifteen thousand searchers with the same problem... Well, suddenly, a whole ton of things that seem prickly and self-important, like editing out "Thanks in advance!" aren't about being "a bunch of power-happy pedants," they're about helping all the people who will ever have that problem to find the best answers. And find 'em instant-like.

SPavel

@MikeQ Upvotes and downvotes are individual levels of influence. But the Stack as a whole wields Close Votes.

Ryan

17:50

Exactly and it requires 5 community members to do that, or one moderator. A moderator should not be hammering a question that received over 1,000 views and mostly all upvotes as well has numerous positive upvoted answers. That makes no sense.

It's also worth noting that I never once said its 5E

Someone else edited the tag in without asking me

One of the positive answers discusses it framed around Pathfinder

David Coffron

@Ryan then that person made a poor edit. You should add the tag you find relevant

SPavel

@Ryan Views don't mean the question is quality

doppelgreener

I agree adding that tag in wasn't appropriate.

Mike Q

Maybe I'm missing something here. If a question is closed, but already has some answers, can the asker still mark an answer as the accepted one?

Ryan

@MikeQ yes I can

doppelgreener

17:52

Closing can occur regardless of votes and views.

Mike Q

@Ryan Oh. Okay. Then what's the problem?

NautArch

@Ryan I think the way to look at this is behind your assumption that your question applies to all systems. Initially, I thought so, too - but after clarification on how Roll for shoes works it's clear that there is at least one system where your question doesn't matter. Unfortunately, that then turns it into a "we need to identify the system so as best to answer". The question can be linked as relevant, or even a dupe hen it applies when it comes up in other systems.

David Coffron

^^^ I recently started a close vote on a year old question. Sometimes questions slip through the cracks

NautArch

The eagle keeps lifting it's rear feathers at me.

Ryan

@NautArch i dont know Roll For Shoes but then System Agnostic as a whole is broken because anyone can make up a game breaking that tag function if thats the view

kviiri

17:56

"System agnostic is broken" has been discussed here before

It is indeed a bit problematic.

SPavel

There are system-agnostic questions.

There are not that many, but there are.

Ryan

oh this obscure game I learned in the Congo by a particular tribe contradicts this. Better clarify what system you're using even though it applies to every other system but this obscure game nobody has ever heard of

Sir Cinnamon

Is an answer to a system agnostic question supposed to answer the question for every possible system? Because that's impossible if so

SPavel

The issue with system-agnostic is a system has "what kind of game are we playing?" baked into it

Sir Cinnamon

@Ryan Hit me up with a pdf of that!

kviiri

17:58

@SirCinnamon Yea, that's a part of the issue

SPavel

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/208/… this is a very good example of a system-agnostic question

Sir Cinnamon

@SPavel But even that question doesn't apply to EVERY rpg

just most/a lot

kviiri

I think earlier it was pretty common to see "system agnostic" questions that were openly questions about a DnD game but the asker just kinda wanted a fix that works anywhere.

Mike Q

So to catch up on what's being argued: Even though the underlying problem is system-agnostic, the question being asked is not?

Is that the issue here?

NautArch

@MikeQ and that there is clearly at least one system where it doesn't apply.

David Coffron

18:02

@NautArch anyone want to link the question? I can't find it...

NautArch

@DavidCoffron this question. Or just go directly there

SPavel

@SirCinnamon I can't think of any RPG where that question does not apply, can you?

Ryan

@SPavel Congo RPG. Its crazy I tell you!

SPavel

Even for a hypothetical Doing It: The Sex-Having RPG About Bumping Uglies in Extreme Graphical Detail, 2nd Edition Revised & Expanded there will be approaches that succeed and fail, because sexuality is a sensitive topic regardless of mechanics

NautArch

@SPavel Isn't that FATAL?

David Coffron

18:07

@Ryan why don't you just remove the mention of saving throws. "What are strategies to maintain roleplay while communicating game mechanics to the GM/other players. "

SPavel

@NautArch No, DI:TSHRPGABUEGD fans look down on FATAL for its unbalanced mechanics and lack of realism

Also, its overly-wieldy acronym

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Because that still hits the same problem with Roll for Shoes.

SPavel

(I am slightly regretting not making the subtitle Bigger, Better, & Uncut now that the edit window has closed)

David Coffron

@NautArch does it? Every system has "game mechanics"

Mike Q

@SPavel I thought we're not allowed to speak about that game here

SPavel

18:10

@MikeQ What game?

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Per my discussion with @GreySage, it doesn't seem to apply. The mechanics are universal and don't require knowing what the character is doing or what they're using.

David Coffron

@NautArch I'm pretty sure they do. You can reuse already acquired skills, no?

Also, "how do I maintain roleplay when informing the GM of my level of a skill" is a valid question in that system and fits into the system-agnostic one. Every system has game-mechanics by definition

NautArch

@DavidCoffron I've never played but was asking GreySage about the mechanics and that how it was described to me.

Simon H.

I agree with doppelgreener now. It's a shame that the conversation is restarting now that some people have moved on.

NautArch

In that it seems like you narratively say what you're doing and roll some dice. The DM then rolls their dice, but it is independent of what the character has done.

David Coffron

18:18

@NautArch not quite. There are skills you acquire with higher skill level (and XP). What you do matters for which skills you collect over time

@SimonH. I am not arguing about it, but trying to suggest a fix for Ryan

Simon H.

The argument is that games like RollForShoes don't have the same application, therefore the tag should be about D&D 5e in specific, and if anyone asks a similar question in the future and the same answer applies, it can be marked as duplicate and the asker can be directed to this one.

David Coffron

If Ryan wants a system-agnostic version of his question, I think that question exists (But must be worded differently)

NautArch

@DavidCoffron Okay, but does the DM need to know what skill the player is using, or do they just need to know the die result (assuming the player provided accurate info)?

nitsua60

@SimonH. That's why chat can be problematic sometimes--if this conversation had happened in the context of some meta Q&A, the record would be there and get many more eyes.

Simon H.

@DavidCoffron That may be too broad a question...

David Coffron

18:20

@NautArch the skill matters, because different skills roll different numbers of dice

NautArch

@DavidCoffron But does that matter to the DM?

Is that info The DM needs to know, or info the player needs to know to roll the right dice and provide the right number to the DM (where the DM only needs the number?)

Simon H.

With as many TTRPGs as there are, could you ask such a question about every single one?

David Coffron

@NautArch im.pretty sure the DM rolls the same number of dice as the player

NautArch

@DavidCoffron That wasn't how @GreySage explained it to me. Need someone who has played the game and understand the rules to confirm because that's definitely not me. I was just looking for an example where the question didn't apply (and honestly surprised there was one)

goodguy5

we are still talking about that question huh

NautArch

18:25

@goodguy5 and only that question. And eagles. And food that's way too spicy for me in my old age. And other things. But yes, that question.

kviiri

Eagle is laying its head down to sleep

Simon H.

most system-agnostic questions are about table politics rather than actual mechanics and specific play techniques. it doesn't seem to apply, in my opinion.

goodguy5

oh. I love spicy food!

mo hottah;; mo bettah

SPavel

@goodguy5 There was a guy that got blisters on his throat from carolina reapers

There is such a thing as too hot

Simon H.

It's hot to discourage eating, lol

goodguy5

18:27

I know it seems counter-intuitive..... but could we use the 5e tag AND the system agnostic tag?

"this question was asked about 5e, but applies to any system"

NautArch

@goodguy5 I love it. My digestive system, not so much.

@SPavel just saw a recent article about a guy who basically gave himself a stroke with the reapers.

goodguy5

@SPavel yea, I try not to fork with more than 400-500k SKUs

Simon H.

@goodguy5 what?

SPavel

@goodguy5 No that's not what tags are for

goodguy5

/shrug

Rubiksmoose

18:29

@NautArch We can do it here I think. We can take it elsewhere if it gets too much.

Mike Q

@goodguy5 I think you mean "this question was asked about 5e, but a system agnostic answer could be correct", which the stack overmind tends to frown upon

The question was grounded in a system-specific scenario, so by stack convention, a system-specific answer is better than a system-agnostic one

Simon H.

However, a separate system-agnostic question may be possible. I can't figure how, but it may be.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I definitely get what you're saying with regard to Xanathar's optionality, but it does seem like WoTC set the book up that the clarifications and rules bits are optional and not at all at the same level as the PHB.

goodguy5

I feel like any system agnostic question would get closed as a dupe

Mike Q

@SimonH. It's certainly possible to ask, but I'm sure that someone would inevitably ask for a system tag, and then we'd loop back to where we are now

Rubiksmoose

18:35

@NautArch Except when it says: "this is the way the rules are". How do you read that as being ignorable?

Simon H.

@goodguy5 if you managed to figure out how to word it as a system-agnostic question, however that may be, it would have to be fundamentally different from the original.

If it was closed as a dupe, then that would mean it didn't succeed as a system-agnostic question

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Where does it say that? (not denying it, just can't find it myself)

goodguy5

"When roleplaying, how can I use verbal flourish, while still clearly relaying the mechanics to my players/gm?"

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh yeah that wasn't meant to be a direct quote but a paraphrasing of a sentiment.Let us focus on a distinct example "The rule for falling assumes that a creature immediately drops the entire distance when it falls. " Which says "this is the way the current rule on falling is"

NautArch

@goodguy5 See the roll for shoes argument where that may not be the case.

goodguy5

18:38

I thought I understood roll for shoes well enough... how is that not the case

Simon H.

@goodguy5 the rules and roleplay are not separate

Mike Q

@goodguy5 Because even the best answer will be very vague

Simon H.

your rolls determine your roleplay in roll for shoes

goodguy5

Wouldn't it be something like....

NautArch

Gotcha - but the preface to those rules overrides that. The introduction to CHapter 2 seems pretty explicit with " It gives you new rules options" AND "The chapter opens with optional rules meant to help you run certain parts of the game more smoothly. " and "The material in this chapter is meant to make yourl life easier. Ignore anything you find here that doesn’t
I help you, and don’t hesitate to customize the things that you do use. The game’s rules exist to serve you and the games you run. As always, make them your own."

goodguy5

18:42

"I want to scare bob with a fart, which I haven't done before"
"I knew this day would come. I prepared. Beans for breakfast lunch and dinner for days. Giddy with anticipation for Bob's impending doom. When he get's near the awning, I yank down my pants and double over, attempting to unleash hell on his world"

NautArch

@SimonH. @goodguy5 Again, I have never played but was going off of what @GreySage told me. And that seemed to be that while the player needs to understand the mechanics to roll their dice, the DM doesn't need to respond to those mechanics. The DM dice rolling is independent from what the player has done.

Simon H.

> The minisystem goes like this:

Say what you do and roll a number of d6s.
If the sum of your roll is higher than the opposing roll (either another player or the DM), the thing you wanted to happen, happens.

github.com/brunobord/micro-rpg-catalog/blob/master/…

goodguy5

hrm.... yes

David Coffron

@SimonH. Except knowing how may dice to roll is determined by skills which are out-of-game. Right?

goodguy5

I'll have to think more on this and read over the 5X8 worth of information again

@DavidCoffron this is very much the point I was trying to make

Simon H.

18:45

@DavidCoffron You start with* only one skill. The DM does not need to know this, as it is simply a modifier.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose My interpretation of Xanathar's was that Wizards have their base rules from the PHB, DMG, and MM. They realized that there could use some clarification on some of those and expansion on others, and that's what Xanathar's is. Except they went out of their way to say in the introduction to Xanathar's and to Chapter 2 that these new bits are all optional.

goodguy5

@SimonH. you start with only one skill

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Sure, but it is ridiculous to make people have to put that an existing rules clarification is "optional" when it just had the misfortune of being in an optional chapter. It seems silly and pedantic and doesn't really serve any point in improving answers IMO.

NautArch

@goodguy5 @SimonH. You are still referencing what the player needs to know about mechanics to determine their roll. The DM is not referencing what the player has done but is referencing what they need to do.

Simon H.

@goodguy5 Right. But again, you don't need to tell the DM that you have a modifier, only the sum total.

NautArch

18:46

@Rubiksmoose They explicitly state that those rules are optional, though. If they didn't want them to be, they wouldn't have said it three times.

goodguy5

have a meeting so can't keep going on about this, but it seems confusing.

NautArch

I'm not denying that it's weird that they didn't make Xanathar's Standard (possibly as discussed so as not to require another rulebook purchase), but that is the actual case.

Simon H.

@goodguy5 good luck out there soldier

goodguy5

thanks

I'm running the meeting too, which I hate doing

NautArch

:43971406 sorry, meant 'standard'

Rubiksmoose

18:48

@NautArch I know I wasn't try to be picky but it is dangerous to let that wording slip out there lol

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose I'd already caught myself a few other times and swapped with standard (and i'm not sure that's the right word, either.)

Simon H.

In the case presented by Ryan, the DM knew everything he needed to know in order to mediate the encounter because it was a saving throw on his part.

Rolls were not asked, which is another reason why the answer is different in different systems.

Not all systems have saving throws, making this situation otherwise impossible.

David Coffron

@SimonH. The question would need rephrasing, but a system-agnostic version could be made including replacing "saving throw"s with "game mechanics" imo

Simon H.

@DavidCoffron "How to convey mechanics to the DM without breaking character"

basically?

David Coffron

Yes basically

Mike Q

18:53

@SimonH. Yes because you can have the same underlying problem, in the same system, in a different scenario

example: Instead of saying "I attack with my fists" and rolling, the player gives an embellished description of martial arts styles and expects the GM to interpret that as an attack roll

Simon H.

@DavidCoffron @MikeQ I'm just worried such a question could be cutting it close in terms of the system-agnostic tag. Most system-agnostic questions are about table politics that apply to roleplaying in general.

Mike Q

@SimonH. Yes, but I don't think that's a restriction on how the tag must be used

Simon H.

@MikeQ The answers could be totally different for different systems. It might be closed for being too broad.

Go ahead and ask it, though...

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