@Miniman I just thought - would a mage be the equivalent of a Golden Sun "Adept"?

I just got the fastest upvote I've ever seen. It really annoys me when people comment about how the voter couldn't possibly have read the answer, but this was like...I hit submit, and by the time my answer had appeared on the screen, it was already at +1. I never even saw +0.

That was me.

@Ben What's a mage? There's a lot of different definitions depending on setting.

I don't know why it was so fast though

@Miniman 5e Sorcerer. Sorry lol

@Ben Colour me impressed!

@Ben Probably, then. Given that Adepts gain their powers by longterm exposure to psynergy stone (cf Garoh), it's definitely more sorcerer-ish than any of the other classes.

@Miniman I was reading the question when your answer popped up. Read your answer and thought "yup"

Of course, Djinni greatly complicate the issue.

And then there's the Tomegathericon and the other items like it.

Well there are all sorts of weird and wonderful things in the world, each affected by the same source, in different ways. That would allow synergy (ha) but not exactly perfect synergy.

@Miniman If you're a Jupiter adept, setting Mercury and Venus Djinni.

@Yuuki Nice

Although that's specifically white mage.

@Yuuki I think there is actually a combo which gives you the "Mage" name, although I don't remember what it is.

It's a little sad how the classes in that game are a little less obvious than they should be

@Ben The only one that really bothers me is Growth. It's the only Psynergy needed for puzzle-solving that you're not guaranteed to have, and you're not given any indication of how to get it.

@Miniman ...I think they might force it on you at one point.

So if you never thought to put a Mars Djinn on a Venus Adept or vice versa, I'm not even sure you could finish the game.

Because you never get djinn at an even rate (Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Mercury, Venus, Mars, etc)

@Miniman that is one thing I liked about BoF3 puzzles, they ran off of character skills you were guaranteed to have when they ran off of them at all

So from memory, I think you do end up with one too many venus/mars djinn, and Felix and Jenna/Isaac and Garet are (by default) the first two members in the party

technically they were all unique out of combat abilities but wtv

I can't cite that at the moment though, but I do remember never having that confusion when I played the game

@Miniman I thought so too, I swore it was one of Jenna's classes.

@Ben Hmmm, maybe. I think it would also have served as a good introduction to how the class system works if they'd had a tutorial at some point. You know, just have Flint/Echo say "Hey, did you know that you can grow this vine if you give me to Garet/Jenna?"

Although apparently Flame User goes Flame User -> Witch -> Hex -> Fire Master -> Justice.

Oh!

@Yuuki what a strange name succession

It's 4-5 Jupiter Djinn Ivan, Sheba or, Karis.

@Yuuki I remember that - it's weird when Garet's final form is the one who gets a spell that uses "the fires of justice".

@Yuuki Wtf is a Karis I've never even heard of that.

@Miniman She's from Dark Dawn.

@Yuuki Lalalalalalalala did you say something?

Eh, I actually liked it.

@nitsua60 The way to do that, I think, is not to deny actions. The goal of combat is to achieve your objective. In physical combat, sometimes that means killing the enemy. In social combat it may simply be enough to convince a third party, force a perp to contradict himself, make a favorable deal. If the prize is seized by one side, the other side continuing to act doesn't matter anymore.

@Yuuki If I'd never played a Golden Sun game before, I would have loved it.

Of course, you can also just limit the number of moves and whoever had the most success wins and then the face-off ends.

A good system would address that. Another way: to move you must expend a resource, are you willing to keep spending resource or will you take the loss here?

@SPavel Yeah, but "convince" is a mechanic that I've never seen work comfortably. I'd be fascinated to see it in play, but I'm a little wary.

@nitsua60 "First person to get to 10 convinces the judge to rule in their favor"

The judge is an NPC

@Yuuki As it was, it just didn't measure up for me. They removed any semblance of difficulty, the story was nonsensical and predicated almost entirely on "Stupidity Is The Only Option", and the total disregard for anything resembling continuity was shoved in your face at every turn.

Convincing PCs is different, yeah

@Yuuki I wanted to like it, but I didn't get past the tut. I mean, that's not enough to judge by, so I'm exempt from this.

Maybe I'll give it another shot sometime

@Miniman I just had a look at the sorcerer class, and you could make an "Adept" of each element, except Earth - that one's not so prevalent

But you would need Mage Hand haha

@Ben I'll admit that a large part of my enjoyment stemmed from "finally, another Golden Sun game!".

@Ben Bigby's too.

@Yuuki Agreed, but I unfortunately didn't get drawn into it the same way.

@Miniman Bigby could be earth-flavored. Force feals earthy.

Plus, it's been a long time since I played so I may not be remembering everything.

@Miniman Just a giant Mickey-mouse looking glove haha.

@nitsua60 The Earth Adepts in the game have a variety of powers that involve using a giant invisible (to non-Adepts) hand to do stuff.

@nitsua60 Perhaps... Shield would definitely be on the list too

@Miniman Oh I see.

@nitsua60 vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/goldensun/images/d/d2/…

@Ben Two mage hands... cool =)

lol

@Yuuki Me too, and I do love some of the changes they made. Like, I almost wept with joy when I discovered that Mars Adepts, with their incredible powers of fiery destruction, are now actually capable of lighting a candle without another candle sitting next to it.

@nitsua60 There's a whole list of spells, all animated in a similar fashion. Move, Lift, Scoop, Pound, etc

IIRC, Scoop and Lift required items.

@Ben I've got a cat-box that could use that treatment.

@Ben Lash, Force, Catch...

@Yuuki All of them did.

@Yuuki Everything except Move.

Yeah, Move is the weird outlier.

@Miniman I liked lash the most haha. Pinch the end of the rope like a thread haha

@Yuuki You might say it was sort of... hand-waved in term of explanation

hey there @nitsua60

@Yuuki When Saturos and Menardi told me Felix had solved most of the puzzles, I was like "...what?!?" And then I realised that he has Move and they don't.

@Shalvenay hiya

They would be pretty much incapable of solving any of the puzzles in the game.

@Miniman Wait... LAWL

It seems a bit odd that all the ancients decided that of the various elements, Venus would be required to do anything in any of the shrines and towers.

@Yuuki Maybe it's a personality thing - I'm not sure they ever explicitly address it, but it seems clear that elemental personalities are in play.

@Yuuki IIRC, Move wasn't a Venus Psynergy

Mars is hot-headed, Mercury is nice, Jupiter is smart, and Venus can’t talk.

I was a bit of a perfectionist, so it bugged me every time I looked at the Psynergy's to see that Isaac/Felix had a Mars Psynergy, that I could do nothing about

@Ben We don't know, do we? I thought psynergies don't actually identify which element they are out of combat.

> Move is a Mars-element Utility Psynergy skill that is inherently known by Isaac, Garet, and Felix

Huh.

I always thought Garet knew it because he's a little bit Venus-ish.

Pound was a Mars Psynergy, Lash was Jupiter

@Ben Wiki?

Uhh...

goldensun.wikia.com/wiki/Move

Carry and Catch were VEnus

@Miniman I kinda think it’s a Vale thing, but Jenna had to go and prove me wrong.

Same as scoop

@Yuuki She is a 14 y/o girl. She doesn't want to conform to the rules of society

@Yuuki Well Jenna is the same as Karst, right? PLOT TWIST!

(Because they both have the group-healing Mars abilities at high levels.)

@Miniman I recently learned that some people pair Felix and Karst based off a single one-off line.

@Yuuki That's pretty weird.

@Yuuki That being...?

Especially when the Sheba-Felix ship has so much support.

@Yuuki I always found that funny. They do that so the player can "identify with the protagonist", and I liked Felix when I first played the series. But I started with TLA, and wnt back to the original, and Felix was a bit of a brat haha

"Brat" might not be the right word, but he definitely had a strong personality. Haha

@Ben Hey, me too! It's really weird playing the original after TLA.

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@Ben It’s at the Mars Lighthouse, I think, after you defeat the two-headed dragon.

@Miniman It was a bit. I felt like the original was a completely different setting... talking trees and such...

@Yuuki Two dragons, not a two-headed dragon.

Geez Yuuki! Get it right! :P

yeah! no more racism against Double Dragons! :P

@trogdor That name is ambiguous, to be fair haha

lol

Spoilers for a decade(s) old game, but Karst is dying and says Felix’s hand “feels warm”.