TRPG General Chat

okeefe

16:21

Does anyone actually enjoy Fate Core or its derivatives? What's going on in your game that Fate seems to really shine?

NautArch

@okeefe I haven't yet played, but i know other chatizens like @doppelgreener and @BESW are very into it and absolutely love it.

okeefe

@NautArch Cool, maybe one of them will chime in.

NautArch

Doppel is the more likely suspect at this time of day :)

doppelgreener

@okeefe Thoroughly. I've played Fate Core, Accelerated, Morts, Atomic Robo, Masters of Umdaar, and Dresden Files Accelerated (just the playtest). Those last two are based on Fate Accelerated. I love Masters of Umdaar to bits, and we've used Fate Core and Atomic Robo to generate a very enjoyable modern science fantasy adventure campagin.

We're also using Fate Accelerated to play a custom game of Stargate SG-13, which follows a team that's picking up plot threads left unexplored by SG-1.

okeefe

@doppelgreener Is Robo's book a better introduction than the Fate Core book? I have both but read the latter (twice) and felt it was too wishywashy in its advice.

doppelgreener

16:30

@okeefe I'm not sure. I haven't ever tried to use it for an introduction.

okeefe

If you have time, could you describe a situation where you felt like Fate shined?

doppelgreener

On that "where does it shine" question -- I enjoy it because it lets me craft a character who's exactly as awesome as I want, and explore them for all their strengths and faults. I get to be encouraged to explore flaws, losses, and setbacks, but it's also OK if I don't do that. We get to mechanically encourage story tropes the ways we see fit, as well, which is awesome for the tropey SG-13 game.

@okeefe Yep, read here & then that big chunk of text I leave a few messages after:

Dec 12 '15 at 13:49, by BESW

Tonight's game was pretty amazing, but it was also rather confusing. I'll try to describe it in the morning when my brain's more online, unless Troggy or Greener beat me to it.

okeefe

Thank you. So far, Fate is a hammer waiting in my toolchest that hasn't found the right nail. I'm not sure when I'd reach for it!

doppelgreener

Apart from the bonkers fun Fate enables, it's also super useful for me as a GM. It lets me go in with my prep being about who the major players are, what they're like as people and what they want and how they behave, and the flavour of the environment the characters will be in (what kinds of things will they see? hear? smell? what goes on in this environment? what's the weather like?).

I then improv so hard for the entire session, flying by the seat of my pants the whole way and readily adapting to the things my players have thrown at me. My most problematic points as a GM were where I had something scripted out and an expectation for how the scene would look -- I went and robbed some players of agency in bad ways and it sucked for them. My most fun were when the players threw a curveball at me so I got to take it and run with it.

SPavel

@doppelgreener Here's my secret - I never do prep

doppelgreener

16:37

It's super, duper friendly and adaptable for improv since mechanics are few, global, and extraordinarily adaptable. I generate a stat block before the session for the major NPCs/enemies, and a couple of model stat blocks for the kinds of people/things the characters might run into that might need one, and then riff off of those during the session. Any other time I can drop down a stat block the moment I need it by saying "this is what they're good at, and what they're not good at".

@SPavel That seems very doable.

Now, myself, I don't have much energy when I'm by myself, and I'm busy on top of that. When I was running D&D games I'd be expected to come up with a ton of stuff for the campaign and for each session and it wasn't workable, and left me restricted in what I could possibly do. Fate GMing by contrast is a breeze and works so well for me. I have lots of energy to pour out when I'm around people, so improv works fine.

SPavel

@doppelgreener Unfortunately I don't do prep in 3.5 which is much worse than not doing prep in Fate

doppelgreener

@SPavel I took a look at the methods for doing that and given the amount of moving parts in 3.5e never felt comfortable with that

Yuuki

> "What are you trying to tell me? That I can improv?"
> "No, I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to."

doppelgreener

I feel like you'd need to have a lot of time spent on training wheels (i.e. games with prep) first before knowing how to make judgement calls with no prep.

SPavel

@doppelgreener why would I need methods

I just show up and wing it

doppelgreener

16:40

@Yuuki Hahaha!

Rubiksmoose

rpg.stackexchange.com/a/115092 Is my comment out of line here?

SPavel

A vast expanse of my memory is wasted on all the 3.5 content that exists

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose nothing wrong with using the SRD for citation if the text is accurate for the game

SPavel

That plus online, no-voice games makes it easy

In person, you at least need stat blocks

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener oh, but it is not an official rules source right? There are explicit disagreements between it and the official rules sources so I assumed we would not prefer it to be used.

SPavel

16:42

but I usually do that at the start of the campaign, like "wouldn't it be cool if a hydra was a dragonfire adept, wait a minute, I'm the DM"

And then at some point the PCs fight elite hydra commandos of the Drakonreich

doppelgreener

@okeefe Another thing Fate does extremely well -- the major reason I switched to it in the first place even -- is that it provides a platform that inherently values different modes of interaction equally. The physical, social, and mental dimensions are all handled with the same universal mechanics. My friends and I were playing a D&D 4e campaign I'd still love to explore, but our most fun parts were between the fights.

Exploration, maneuvering risky terrain, talking smack to a giant rock elemental older than the island they were standing on and getting into trouble for it, etc -- all the bits between the actual combat were bombastically fun and the combat was not so much. That's part down to that I was still learning to make D&D combat engaging... but it was also totally optional when we moved on to Fate.

That's not uncommon for games outside D&D of course; D&D is one of the outliers nowadays in that it nearly exclusively focuses on physical violence as a resolution mechanism, but it was amazing to us a few years ago.

Yuuki

@doppelgreener Do spells count as physical violence or mental violence?

🤔

doppelgreener

@Yuuki Bit of both

SPavel

It'd be great to have some games where the non-murder resolution mechanics are as deep as D&D's combat

Sadly, these things tend to become simplified

doppelgreener

@SPavel Nowadays I don't go for any game with mechanics as deep as D&D's combat, because I'm equally happy with games with mechanics that fit in a single digit number of pages, or a fairly small booklet anyway. The important thing is that Fate just creates a universal mechanical structure for resolving challenges that's equally adaptable to various things, and applying it to murder is generally one of the most boring ways to use them.

SPavel

16:49

@doppelgreener Oh, I didn't say I would play it

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener I'm really hoping to try Fate after I try my Powered by the Apocalypse game. I bought the Fate core book and it looks really good.

SPavel

But it would be great, conceptually, to have someone sit down and write up a 50-page system for how one might verbally dismember an opponent

doppelgreener

Like, Lasers and Feelings just has you roll Lasers or Feelings and compare it against your number. Done. That's its resolution system. Apply it to anything you want, and so far in our games we've never done something we couldn't categorise clearly as being Lasers or Feelings.

SPavel

What if I have feelings ABOUT lasers

doppelgreener

@SPavel Does Unwritten RPG count? It's a game based off the Myst franchise that is about exploring and discovering the worlds left behind by an earlier civilisation. No violence in it.

(It's based on Fate, and introduces some new mechanical ideas and removes all notions of attacking and conflict)

SPavel

16:51

If it's based on Fate it's probably too simple

I suppose one could just grab the Hughes guide and add numbers

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose other than you both being wrong (althougH I probably am wrong), I do not think you need to delete it. We've covered on the site that the SRD is not official, and linking to unofficial resources, whether or not they are the same, is not something we should be encouraging. ALthough 7sided just posted otherwise..so maybe we are listing the SRD as official?

doppelgreener

@okeefe Also, at some point in a Masters of Umdaar game, I was playing Mercia, the Amazon swashbuckler hero of a hundred and eight stories. She was awesome, I got to make her awesome, and the game and story let us enjoy and celebrate her awesomeness. At some point, the party got swallowed up by a sandworm, except for her — she got entangled in rope trying to net it and subdue it. (It seemed like a good idea at the time.)

Ultimately the sandworm decides it's had enough of a snack and concedes the fight — it's going to leave, and avoid being killed or totally subdued. So it buries down into the glass sands it lives in. Two of us are "safely" inside its stomach... Mercia is not. She's still entangled in the rope at its side. So she decides to peel a scale loose and use it for cover, and ride the damn thing under the sands.

It's awesome and fun, and we wind up riding it to the underground spring we were looking for, then we blow it up from the inside to get free.

That's not the thing I want to convey though. The thing is — Mercia, we decided, had a seriously rough time from that fight. She had a worm tooth in her leg, and was taken for a ride on the outside of a sandworm through a desert. It's amazing she lived.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Yeah I'm super confused about the whole thing. I have people telling me the citing DnDB is not right because it is unofficial (when it is pretty clearly official) and then people saying that citing the SRD is fine when it is explicitly NOT official.

doppelgreener

... So we decided she should definitely take a severe consequence to reflect the injuries she sustained and survived. They were bad and she needed treatment. But Fate gave me a safe space to just decide "this character is seriously hurt, let's represent that" when I could have just ignored it and done nothing. It gave me a tool to do that with, and I did it because it would help me explore the character and would lead to future fun.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose i stand corrected. @nitsua60's post on Official Rules does state the SRD as official. It was that other question where there was an irregularity between the two that raised the question of whether or not it was legitimate?

doppelgreener

16:59

@okeefe In short Fate is one of the games that successfully encourages players to conspire against their own characters for fun and drama, and they benefit from the character and story development that falls out of that process.

4

okeefe

@doppelgreener It feel like for the games you're describing there's already a rich world that they players already know, and your characters are plopped into the thick of it. I guess I'm more used to games where I'm introducing or we're co-creating the world as a group. There's less shared background.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Wow I could have sworn that it was stated in that post as unofficial. Must have been that other post

okeefe

It's one reason I though Robo might make a better introduction Fate than Fate Core's generic genericness.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose same, especially after the conversation on polymorph(?) But it's always been in that post (I checked edit history)

doppelgreener

@okeefe Oh, a gameplay intro? Yes. Definitely. Absolutely. Fate Core is primarily a document for introducing you to how the system works and how to modify it, and was made as a springboard for people to develop their own Fate games... but it's definitely hard mode for getting started with a game. I'd even strongly recommend Masters of Umdaar.

Rubiksmoose

17:05

@NautArch It might be overkill but I'm writing up a meta post on it.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose double tap

okeefe

@doppelgreener They know how to roleplay, but we would all be new to Fate.

doppelgreener

In fact, I do strongly recommend Masters of Umdaar. Here it is, it's free: drivethrurpg.com/product/155458/…

Masters of Umdaar is a laser fantasy game (think He-Man and Thundercats and similar 80s cartoons) that operates in a world of classic black-and-white evil. You have the oppressive Masters and their henchmen, all of which are classic disney evil, and then everyone else, the Good Guys, who are trying to resist them or even overthrow them or at the very least survive in spite of them. The Masters are tyrants or worse.

It comes with a premade adventure about the Starblades, five ancient swords that can be assembled into a superweapon. One of the Masters wants to find them, and so you're trying to find them first so they can't assemble the superweapon.

SPavel

can you play as the Masters

Honestly, their side sounds more fun

The "heroes" are passive and reactionary

doppelgreener

@SPavel It's written for playing as the heroes, but maybe.

There's lots of names in that stock adventure which feature a lot of apostophres (like K'vir, or Su'ul, or H'rrthmaw which we don't even know how to pronounce) so we employed The Law of Fantasy Apostrophes: all apostrophes in names are pronounced 'boing'. It helped a lot.

SPavel

17:13

Change them to upper class British names

K'vir? More like the Right Honourable Sir Kevin Thisbury, 17th Baron Upton-Dunwich

doppelgreener

@SPavel Sir Kevin is a starblade but that still works.

SPavel

@doppelgreener A sword can't be a knight

doppelgreener

Apparently this one is. It is one of the five Starblades of Su-boing-ul.

Yuuki

@SPavel Not with that attitude.

doppelgreener

@Yuuki Technically it's SPavel's attitude that even made K'vir -- I mean, Sir Kevin -- a knight in the first place.

SPavel

17:16

@doppelgreener You mean Dame Eleanor Harringsworth Cheltinghamford

Yuuki

@doppelgreener K'vir? Does that make its followers "the @kviiri"?

Wait no, that's two i's.

doppelgreener

:O

SPavel

@Yuuki Two i's because it's plural duh

doppelgreener

They could've embellished a bit for the demonym.

SPavel

@doppelgreener That cost extra

Yuuki

17:18

@SPavel IIRC, "the Right Honourable" is usually also followed the name of the office for which they are "right honourable".

Like "The Right Honourable Lord Mayor of London".

SPavel

@Yuuki Sir Kevin is Right Honourable for every office.

Yuuki

Well then you need to list every office.

lrn2herald

SPavel

@Yuuki Sir Kevin is too considerate for such an onerous obligation.

Yuuki

It's not about consideration, it's about propriety. What's next, calling deceased individuals "Sir"?

That would be an abomination.

SPavel

@Yuuki That's discriminatory to the many liches in Her Majesty's service

@Yuuki And that is offensive to the Abominations in Her court

Yuuki

17:21

@SPavel Liches aren't deceased, they're undeceased.

@SPavel Court.

SPavel

"Deceased" is a state one acquires after having died, you can't be undeceased. The undead are still deceased.

The Oracle

1

Q: Is it fine to cite the SRD in answers even if WotC does not consider it an official rules source?

Based on a discussion on an answer. Jeremy Crawford has said: The sword of sharpness deals an extra 14 slashing damage when you roll a 20 on its attack roll. The SRD incorrectly says otherwise. Note that the SRD is not an official rules source for D&D. Does this mean that the SRD is unsuit...

doppelgreener

@TheOracle @Rubiksmoose asking on meta is a good course of action there

Yuuki

@SPavel Based on people who've been caught after faking their death for tax purposes, you probably can be undeceased.

Which brings up the question of how inheritance taxes are levied against liches.

Or whether they are levied at all.

doppelgreener

@okeefe I'm happy to answer any other questions you might have. If you play Atomic Robo, I suggest using the E-Z rules. They contain good stuff, like "don't fill everything out" -- that's super useful.

SPavel

17:25

@Yuuki I would imagine that an intelligent undead creature has the option to register either as a beneficiary or as a continuation of the prior entity for tax purposes

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Thanks. Like, I wasn't even trying to be a rabble rouser. I thought incorrectly that this was old news and settled policy.

SPavel

If the previous individual has already been found to be deceased, it's too late to register as a continuation entity, obviously

So none of this "man is resurrected 1000 years after his death, has millions of gold in bank account" bunkum

Acts7Seven

Well Played Old Spice: new PC. 5th edition

1mqawllBh142wrtTUuKtR5zpKHo0as6Ik

SPavel

what

Acts7Seven

drive.google.com/file/d/1mqawllBh142wrtTUuKtR5zpKHo0as6Ik/view

"The Gentleman" playable character

SPavel

17:29

Why is having an MBA only one level below becoming a being of pure energy?

GreySage

@Yuuki Taxes aren't levied against Liches because they kill the tax gatherers and turn them into undead minions.

doppelgreener

Our original paradigm of Fate character creation:
- Create a full character with every stat, aspect, and stunt slot filled out.
- Play the game. The GM does their level best to incorporate everything.
- Wind up feeling a bit uneasy that half your aspects and stunts haven't seen any use and several of your stats aren't actually quite right for what you're winding up doing in play. Use milestones to change them.

Our current paradigm of Fate character creation (taken from that E-Z character creation method in Atomic Robo):

2

(cc @okeefe ^)

SPavel

@GreySage That is why a smart government hires the lich to be a tax collector

Acts7Seven

...

Download this new Old Spice Gentleman Class for the greatest role playing game of all time, which we cannot mention for legal reasons, to fulfill that fantasy dream you have always had since reading this post. https://goo.gl/jBAK4n

Tweeted by OldSpice on February 7, 2018 at 10:16 PM

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose I've done that a few times before. I even thought the whole community would agree with the destruction of the time tag, but much to my surprise people wanted to keep it. I realised my personal interpretation of reasons for tag removal didn't line up with the community's and had just assumed they did.

SPavel

17:31

Also this would explain why liches are evil - every time they die their wealth gets estate-taxed, and they are mad about it

Yuuki

@SPavel It's more a consequence of "you might as well get your MBA if you're going to become a being of pure energy" than anything else.

NautArch

Got my first downvote @Rubiksmoose. Not expecting folks to like my answer :)

GreySage

@SPavel Imagine if every time you experienced a minor set back the government took all your stuff and gave it to your distant descendants. You'd be ticked too.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh man. I actually liked yours better so you have my upvote for all that matters lol

SPavel

@GreySage Coincidentally, this does happen to me every year around April

Whether or not the government will bother to pass the cash on to my descendants, once I have them, is another story

Rubiksmoose

17:35

@NautArch A cleric 5/Wizard 4 could learn a 5th level spell from a scroll right?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose not according to crawford

That's why I thought that tweet was relevant.

If he can't copy and cast normally, he can't cast normally from the scroll alone either.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch ohhhhh yeah then I agree with you even more.

Maybe you should make that a more prominent part of your answer?

NautArch

Yeah, at lunch now but will try and edit and clarify

Yuuki

Hmm... what's the intended use of a scroll? For casters to avoid using a spell slot?

Or just canned magic?

NautArch

I'd say avoid slots, otherwise they're just potions

GreySage

17:43

@NautArch The char couldn't learn the spell specifically because he can't learn 5th level spells yet. He still has a 5th level slot, and can cast 5th level spells, he just has to upcast to do it. If you cast a 5th level magic missile spell, it is a 5th level spell for all purposes (see counterspell, sorcerer metamagic).

okeefe

@doppelgreener Ok, this ez mode makes a looot more sense for getting started.

NautArch

Hey cant cast 5th level spells, @GreySage

He has a 5th level slot, but can only cast up 3rd level cleric spells or 2nd level wizard.

He can upcast one of those as a 5th, but that's not the same as casting a 5th level spell

doppelgreener

@okeefe It's super. As a more experienced individual it also makes me reconsider what I even need stunts for. I made an alchemist character a while back for the modern science fantasy story (which uses Atomic Robo's mechanical framework), and spent a lot of time considering ahead of time what kinds of stunts or skills or aspects I'd need.

Around the same point we deciding we'd be interested in trying this E-Z method, so at some point BESW said to me (paraphrasing): How about you just have her Concept say she's an alchemist, and you give her the Alchemy skill. You can use that skill and fate points to do alchemy stuff, and we'll assume you can do alchemy whenever you've got a minute spare to draw transmutation circles and activate them. Then we'll see what you need from there.

... and for the handful of sessions we played with that character, that was all she needed.

We decided she could pick up stunts to be able to do any singular specific kind of alchemy immediately with no preparation (she has a tattoo or sigil that is a pre-drawn alchemy circle for that kind of transmutation) but I didn't reach a point I needed that.

GreySage

"When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic
missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into."

So if you cast magic missile using a 5th level slot, it is a 5th level spell

doppelgreener

@okeefe -- @BESW and @trogdor enjoy Fate in entirely different ways as well, so you might be interested to still get their take.

GreySage

17:54

Page 201 in PHB, casting a spell at a higher level

NautArch

@GreySage I think it's that case in terms of countering/dispelling, but it is an upcast spell. It IS a 5th level for the sake of that, ut it is a 3rd level spell upcast in a 5th level slot. It's not the same as a 5th level spell. ANd in this case, I do agree with Crawford as well - who differentiates it the same way.

BESW

@SPavel Greener didn't quite sell the Umdaar conceit; it's not about heroes resisting the Masters. It's about treasure-hunters seeking ancient technology-like-unto-magic that's lost or hidden in trap-filled temples and dungeons deep in the dangerous wilderness.

The Masters oppose you because they want the artifacts too, but whether you seek the artifacts to oppose the Masters, become one yourself, or for your own reasons like just wanting to get rich, is up to you--and maybe (probably!) everyone else in your group has their own different goals.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose did a it of reordering of my answer - is that better/worse? You have any suggestions (even though you have a competing answer?)

okeefe

@doppelgreener I'm more just feeling for any sort of reason to put Atomic Robo (or another Fate) on my read list.

GreySage

@NautArch Ok, I'm curious how you would run Twinned Spell metamagic then. "you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell's level". No specific clauses, just based on the spells level. If I twin Chromatic Orb upcast to level 2, do I spend 1 point or 2?

BESW

18:00

@okeefe Every time Evil Hat releases a new Fate product, it feels like they've gotten better at explaining it and winnowing out the bits that don't work so well.

NautArch

@GreySage gimme a sec, have to look at metamagic rules(haven't played a sorcerer)

BESW

Atomic Robo's a lot crunchier than Fate Core, but it's very good at what it wants to be. Core can be a bit... weird, partly because it's the first attempt at explaining the new Fate iteration and partly because it's trying to explain the whole philosophy of Fate as well as be a setting-agnostic game engine without any story of its own to latch onto.

Fate's best when you've got a strong shared story concept to tie it onto, and it'll always seem off without that.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I can look in a few! (I don't care for competing) it all about getting the best answer for OP!

NautArch

@GreySage I would say 2, and that goes with my answer as well. As you said, the rules do state to count the spell level it's cast at as it's spell level.

My point is that there is a difference between upcasting a spell and casting a spell that starts at that level.

BESW

I feel ARRPG is much better than Core at being a Fate game, and explaining itself, because it's a particular Fate game. Core's more of a how-to-design manual.

NautArch

18:03

They simply don't have access to those spells. They have access to the ability to cast something at that power level, but not those spells.

GreySage

@NautArch Exactly, they can cast a 5th level spell, but not those specific 5th level spells. I argue that a spell being cast only has 1 level, and if you can cast a 5th level spell, then you have the ability to cast 5th level spells.

BESW

@SPavel Check out Bubblegumshoe?

GreySage

it's no different than if the spell on the scroll is on your spell list but not a spell known (if you're a wizard).

NautArch

@GreySage except the rules are explicit in that you CAN'T cast 5th level spells.

Maiko Chikyu

Personally i use Fate as a guideline to run the game i have in mind

I mean instead of using it like D&D i add new skills and new troubles as i feel like it

doppelgreener

18:09

@BESW Oh, nice, thanks for that.

I totally forgot about that @_@

Maiko Chikyu

Guys if i were to run an Overlord game. I mean a game like the anime which system would be ideal?I am currently thinking WOD but i am not sure.

Yuuki

IIRC, World of Darkness is kinda cludgy.

Lots of moving parts and is kinda intertwined with its setting.

So you wouldn't really be playing an Overlord game so much as you would be playing as WoD characters cosplaying as Overlord characters.

Maiko Chikyu

Fair enough

Which system would you advise?

Yuuki

18:24

I honestly don't have enough experience in enough systems to give a recommendation.

It might be best to just use the system you're most familiar with.

NautArch

18:52

the spoiler redactions in this question/answer makes it kind of funny at a glance.

Yuuki

Huh. Next time I go on an underwater adventure, I'll have to remember to bring a glass knife.

doppelgreener

@KorvinStarmast that worked out well :D i've removed that string of comments between us to de-clutter beneath your post

Rubiksmoose

19:11

@NautArch I do like it better!

@NautArch I thought the exact same thing! I've not seen that before.

kviiri

@Yuuki We are legion

SPavel

@kviiri A legion is only a few thousand dudes

I'm pretty sure even mid-tier Instagram cats have more followers than a legion

Yuuki

19:27

@SPavel But what about a legion of mid-tier Instagram cats?

SPavel

@Yuuki Then you're stuck with herding cats, and are reduced to madness

kviiri

Legions are charged legs

SPavel

19:41

@kviiri anions, cations, legions? Representing negative charge, positive charge, and infantry charge?

doppelgreener

Onions

As opposed to offions

SPavel

@doppelgreener That's how I remember it - anions sounds like onions, which are bitter, so negative. Cations start with "cat" which are fluffy, and so positive.

Yuuki

Onions aren't really bitter though?

GreySage

@SPavel anions start with an-, just like anti-, which negates something, hence are negative.

SPavel

@GreySage My way is better

GreySage

19:51

@SPavel Maybe, but that is how I remembered them.

Yuuki

Anions sound like onions, which are sweet when carmelized, so positive. Cations start with "cat" which scratch you when you try to feed them fish, therefore negative.

kviiri

@Yuuki more negative than negation?

SPavel

@Yuuki Your cat is faulty

GreySage

How old should my sorcerer be when his hometown is destroyed by a dragon? I figure he will be in his 20s in-game.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I like your answer on the MC spell scroll question btw.

NautArch

19:57

@Rubiksmoose I added more info to the Crawford tweet. It was missing the first half of the question which may have mislead it's impact.

SPavel

@GreySage Trick question, a 20 year old would never be staying in his home town

kviiri

Man, "ion" in English language just doesn't know how it wants to be pronounced when a part of different words.

SPavel

@kviiri >Man, English language just doesn't know how it wants to be pronounced

FIFY

GreySage

@SPavel I meant that his hometown was destoyed when he was a child, and then (some years later) he will be in his 20s

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Nice one! I tried for a few seconds to get to it but gave up because I am lazy I guess.

shakes fist at newfangled technology

Yuuki

20:02

@SPavel I don't know, have you seen the current economy?

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose I feel your pain, I don't get how Twitter works at all (which hasn't stopped my from using it)

Yuuki

Maybe he's staying at home because living on campus at the nearby wizard college is entirely too expensive.

GreySage

@Yuuki Phff, Sorcerers don't go to college, they're self-taught

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage yup me neither. I'm just not terribly efficient at it.

Yuuki

@GreySage So what you're saying is that he stays at home because the only way he can make money due to his lack of education is working at the local MacGronald's?

And the minimum wage is too low to sustain a life above or even at the poverty line?

GreySage

20:11

2d6

Dice Service

•

GreySage

Bam

kviiri

@SPavel Eeyup.

NautArch

@GreySage I don't use it, except for looking up stuff JC says. I was hoping my link contained the original part 1...but it didn't. Quotes FTW.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch @GreySage hot take: Crawford tweet and MC casting rules are irrelevant because they only apply to casting spells with slots. Thoughts?

NautArch

20:17

I debated linking to the sage advice link instead. It contains the whole thread.

@Rubiksmoose That's a possibility. But it's a clear case of you don't have access to spells of X level because your individual casters don't. It's not a 1:1 match, but it's pretty clear what he's saying (in my mind)

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose I would say that they are irrelevant because they both concern spells known, not spells cast, and I think that not knowing a spell but wanting to cast it is kind of the exact scenario Spell Scrolls were made for.

NautArch

@GreySage but JC specifically talks about finding a 2nd level spell in a book (functionally the same as a scroll in terms of 3rd party casting) and not being able to copy or use it. In the case of a scroll, he could use it but with an ability check because you can do ability checks to cast things you normally couldn't.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I mean I agree with what I think the rules say, but can you answer me this

"he can use those 2nd-level slots only to cast 1st-level spells" this, to me, is a general statement saying that you can ONLY upcast into those slots not casting any other 2nd level spells in it. That speaks to casting not knowing in my mind

but then I turn around and am now thinking it doesn't matter anyways because it is talking about using slots.

GreySage

@NautArch I think JC is responding to that tweet and to what it says and nothing else. A spell in a book is not the same as a spell on a scroll, otherwise a wizard could use his own spellbook as scroll if the circumstances were dire enough. If the tweet applied to scrolls, JC would have said that he could cast the spell, just with a check required. If the tweet applied to scrolls as-is, no scroll of a higher level could ever be cast, period.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage That is a very good point!

GreySage

20:31

@Rubiksmoose I think i agree with this, you can only upcast 1st -> 2nd because you only know 1st. Even if this meant that you couldn't use 2nd level slots for 3rd party casting, scrolls don't use slots, so it wouldn't matter.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage Very good way of putting it.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose I would also say that if you somehow knew a 2nd level spell at level 1 (from a homebrew race or something weird), you would be able to use those 2nd level slots for that spell, because you aren't using them for a wizard spell, just this other thing you randomly have (theoretically)

NautArch

@GreySage Which is why i said it wasn't a 1:1 case. But I think the rule on you don't actually know 2nd level spells is what's relevant. The specific rule aroudn scroll casting in that you can TRY to cast a higher level with an ability check overrides the general that you simply can't.

Momonga-sama

Howdyho

d20

Dice Service

15

Momonga-sama

20:36

d13

d12

Dice Service

1

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch for some reason your answer has gotten the most upvotes and the most downvotes. Way to be divisive!

GreySage

@NautArch I don't think it is a rule that you can't cast scrolls higher than your normal level, but even if it were, those would be 2 equally specific rules saying directly contradictory things. The only way forward in that case would be to get errata or specific feedback from the designers.

@Rubiksmoose All those answers are steadily getting longer too

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage as well as the comment threads beneath them.

Joel Harmon

@Miniman As sketchy as a horse drawn carriage.

Rubiksmoose

20:40

@GreySage yeah this is just one of those times where the rules are unclear. Unless someone pulls some clinch tidbit from some obscure place this is going nowhere.

Joel Harmon

@Rubiksmoose I think this is because he's the sole representative of a hard "you have to roll"

Rubiksmoose

@JoelHarmon rolling is hard!

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose Rolling is why I play DnD and not just imagine stuff in my head.

Joel Harmon

@Rubiksmoose There's always that one that just refuses to stop on the table, or hits one of the minis...

GreySage

@JoelHarmon Those darned dice...

BESW

20:42

@JoelHarmon That's why we roll in a wooden salad bowl.

GreySage

Was it here in chat that someone posted a minor cursed magic item "Darned Dice"? I remember reading it a few days ago

Rubiksmoose

2 days ago, by SPavel

**Darned dice**
These wooden dice are typically carried in a worn leather bag; a DC 10 Appraise check reveals that it is cheap bonded leather disguised to look expensive. An *identify* spell shows that these dice are especially lucky, and provide an average result that is +1 higher than normal for dice with this many sides. In reality, these dice provide no bonus whatsoever. When rolled, 50% of the time these dice will roll off the table, or out of the designated dice rolling area.

Minor transmutation; CL 2, Craft Wondrous Item, *cheat.* Price: 50gp.

GreySage

Thats the one

Joel Harmon

@BESW For Christmas one year, a friend made dice rollers for everyone in the group (and a few others who weren't in that game). Work great, and also useful for keeping the dice together.

BESW

> Darned dice. You can repair anything with needle and thread, whether it makes sense or not.

Yuuki

20:46

> Darned dice. You can treat wool as razor wire when attacking vegetables.

Joel Harmon

Darned dice. You can repair anything by cutting it into small pieces first.

NautArch

@GreySage THere isn't. The rule is you can't cast spells higher than your normal level. The exception is when casting a spell scroll in that you can now TRY when you previously couldn't even try. But the relevant bit is not actually being able to cast 2nd level spells normally even though you have 2nd level spell slots. THat's the equivalence I was trying (and failing?) to say.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch oh man. I got the answer.

GreySage

@NautArch Ok, I understand and agree with most of that. I just argue that you are able to cast 2nd level spells normally (as I lay out in my answer), which breaks the equivalence. The Tweeted question is asking about being able to learn a spell, while the Scroll question ultimately boils down to being able to cast a spell, which is a different thing.

Joel Harmon

@GreySage I agree here. Quoting myself from a comment, "I'm unclear on how casting Cure Wounds (normally a 1st level spell) from a 5th level slot isn't a Cleric spell of 5th level".

NautArch

20:56

@GreySage He does clarify learn AND cast in his tweet, but yeah. I just hink that the multiclass specific casting rules override the general upcast rule - and that said rule is specifically for things like counterspell/dispel, etc where you need to know the spell level. The multiclass rule still resides in that you can have higher level spell slots, but you do not know higher level spells and can only use them to upcast lower level spells.

If you then bridge that with the general upcast rule, it makes the multiclass rule null and void.

Rubiksmoose

8

A: Does a Multiclassed spell slot higher than your choosable spells enable you to use a Spell Scroll without making an ability check?

Rules as intended - You need to make the check It is worth noting that the multiclassing rules are optional and not all the rules are written with them in mind. This seems to be such a case caused by the lack of considering multiclassing rules when writing other parts of them. However, Jeremy C...

@NautArch @GreySage @JoelHarmon Check out the edit

Joel Harmon

My interpretation is the spell scroll rule is intended to limit scrolls to your overall character power, not necessarily your specific class's power.

NautArch

@JoelHarmon i'm not sure i understand where you're going with that.

Joel Harmon

@NautArch Your clr5/wiz4 is in a party with a drd9. Both are capped at level 5 spells. I'd say they can both freely cast level 5 scrolls, but are taking a risk with a 6 or higher.

GreySage

@NautArch So if you are single class, and upcast a spell, the spellcast is of the level of the slot, but if you are multiclass, and upcast a spell, the spellcast is something else? The only options I can think of that make sense are either the base level or the level of the slot.

Joel Harmon

20:59

I admit it's nebulous, but it's a "how powerful should anything else at my character level be" gut feeling.

GreySage

@JoelHarmon That makes a lot of sense

Rubiksmoose

As a multiclass spellcaster, the spells you can cast are determined for your classes separately. In the example below, make the check. #DnD https://twitter.com/Sands_Tavares/status/846812106968256517

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on March 28, 2017 at 7:58 PM

NautArch

@JoelHarmon Ah, I think that's where we differ. THe language between Spells and Spell Slots. I think they're two different things when you start multiclassing.

@Rubiksmoose i'll add that to my answer.

confirms i was in the right direction.

and i'll remove the other tweet link. it's confusing the issue.

Joel Harmon

@Rubiksmoose I think this is a big enough change from your previous answer that, as a site management issue, you should have posted it as a new one.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose and great twitter-fu finding that!

GreySage

21:01

@Rubiksmoose That seems to decide the matter pretty solidly. I think I disagree with his ruling (and would rule otherwise at my table), but with that additional data the universal rule is clear

Joel Harmon

@NautArch I stick by my initial assessment, backed by other answers, that a low level spell cast from a higher level slot is a spell of that class and the higher level.

Yuuki

I don't think that's what's being argued.

NautArch

@JoelHarmon then you have to ignore the multiclass rule of you can't cast from that spell slot unless it's an upcast. If an upcast IS that level, then you can't upcast either.

Yuuki

Is it? I've only been paying half-attention to this, really.

Rubiksmoose

@JoelHarmon Yeah I thought of that. I'm working on an edit to bring it back in line.

Joel Harmon

21:03

@NautArch I think we can definitely agree the wording could have been better.

NautArch

@JoelHarmon but given the clarification from JC on @Rubiksmoose find, it's clear that the specific multiclassing rules override the general upcasting rules. It's all about your casting by class.

Joel Harmon

@NautArch But it also brings up the interesting question of whether you need to start tracking the source of your slots. Your clr5/wiz4 has three 3rd level slots, but one of them is from multiclassing. Does your interpretation mean he can only cast two Animate Dead spells per day, because the third slot is mixed?

NautArch

@JoelHarmon What do you mean "but one of them is from multiclassing"

all of their spell slots are from multiclassing. What they have access to is from their class list (3rd level max for cleric, and 2nd level max for wizard.)

And I kind of get it. Multiclassing lets you expand your access to spells/knowledge/abilities. You can do more, but not as well. By allowing you to actually cast at that higher level even though multiclassing limited you, you have removed that limit.

Joel Harmon

@NautArch I meant that, as compared with a cleric5/commoner4, they have one additional spell slot. I believed this one spell slot would fall under the "upcasting only" rule, but I just re-read the MC rules and changed my mind.

GreySage

@NautArch I still disagree with this statement. I think that JCs tweet is an entirely new rule that just applies to casting from a scroll. a Cleric2/Wizard2 can still upcast to 2nd level spells, they just can't cast 2nd level scrolls (for reasons)

Rubiksmoose

21:12

UGH I don't know what to do about my answer. I think it is good as is, and is the same as my original, but is also a worse answer for dividing myself.

oh well

Yuuki

@GreySage Probably because they're lacking raisins.

Joel Harmon

@Rubiksmoose Looks like it's deleted now, but I liked the RAI/RAW distinction.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I disagree, but I think it actually makes complete sense. He is saying that spells are determined if you can cast by class individually. So, to see if you can cast a spell scroll, look at each class and see if the one that has it in the spell list can cast spells at that level.

NautArch

@JoelHarmon I generally like raw/rai distinctions, but I think my answer is supported RAW also.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose Indeed

BESW

21:15

@Yuuki [gestures above] This is another cool thing about Fate: it's not actually possible to have that sort of conversation/confusion.

NautArch

@GreySage fair enough - i just think the reasons are specifically laid out in the multiclassing rules.

Joel Harmon

@NautArch I think it's clear both sides think they're supported by RAW.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose I think the current state of your answer is good. You provide the correct answer (by way of tweets), but also explain the rules as-in the books (which is all most people look at)

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage thanks for the sanity check :)

NautArch

I guess I remain the lone gunman that the specific rules on multiclass casting beat the general rule on upcasting.

Yuuki

21:22

@BESW I definitely need to give Fate a try, although the only TRPG place I know of is a bit of a drive.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch No I agree, I think. I actually don't think there is a conflict though with this new spin.

Joel Harmon

@NautArch You and your 14 upvoters.

BESW

@Yuuki You might be able to arrange an online game with some chatters.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch I don't think upcasting is relevant at all because we aren't using slots. Spell scroll rules are the goto.

NautArch

@JoelHarmon and my 5 downvotes! But I meant in here :) To me, between the mutliclass limitation that you can have higher level slots but can't cast higher level spells unless upcasting a lower level spell, the rule on use each class to determine spell casting levels, and that making an upcast spell equivalent to a higher level spell breaks the first rule I listed, the wrong seems clear.

@Rubiksmoose I think GreySage argument was based on an upcast spell being the same as casting ahigher level spell.

Yuuki

21:25

@BESW I've noticed that I have a problem with speaking up in online games. At least, ones conducted over voice chat.

Except to make a joke now and then. Perhaps I was born to be the comedic side character?

BESW

@Yuuki Makes sense. I prefer voice AND video, myself. But also it helps to have a group that works to make sure everyone's heard.

SPavel

If I do voice, I am too tempted to do accents

GreySage

@NautArch Indeed it was. I'm still confused as to your interpretation of this. In your answer you specifically call out that you CAN upcast to use that 5th level slot. What level of spell would a 1st level spell upcasted to 5th be (in a MC situation)?

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel is this a bad thing?

NautArch

@GreySage It's a 5th level spell if trying t counterspell it. But you are upcasting the 1st level spell. If you MAKE it a 5th level spell stand-alone, then multiclassing says you can't do that (you can only upcast from a lower level in a 5th, you can not cast a 5th).

Joel Harmon

21:32

@NautArch I think I'm with GreySage. Upcasting a spell to level 5 is casting a level 5 spell. I don't view this as contradicting anything in the multiclass rules.

Also, I can't help but think we're going in circles here. :)

@NautArch That seems like an odd interpretation of "the spell assumes the higher level"

GreySage

@NautArch Making it a 5th level spell in every way except it's not actually a 5th level spell seems ridiculous to me

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose No

GreySage

@NautArch I don't actually see anything in the multiclass rules saying you can't cast higher level spells, only that you need to use your lower level spells to do so

SPavel

But it does undermine my image as a serious adult person who wears a suit and tie

(my suit and tie are phenomenal by the way, I am surrounded by engineers who dress like college students so the contrast really helps)

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage "this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells"

Joel Harmon

21:36

@Rubiksmoose Right. And when you use such a slot, it becomes a higher level spell.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose Exactly, you aren't knowing or preparing high level spells, you are only casting them (via upcasting lower-level spells)

Rubiksmoose

on the other hand I don't see this as being contradicted by allowing upcast spells to simply be that level either.

GreySage

I don't see there being any conflict. The thing on scrolls is just A Thing.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage agreed. I think we've gone too deep. I really don't think there are conflicts. I could actually probably even write a full RAW answer based on that tweet saying you have to roll, but eh.

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose I feel like this (whether upcast spells count as higher level spells in reality, and if there is a rule in MC that you can't cast those spells) is the crux of the disagreement. It also ultimately doesn't matter, given that we agree on everything you can do with those spells and slots and what you can't.

Rubiksmoose

21:40

@GreySage agreed.

Joel Harmon

In summary, if a DM at my table made a call either way, I wouldn't really complain. I'd just like to know before hand which way it would go, so I could do proper risk assessment.

Rubiksmoose

@JoelHarmon also, as with many heated questions. It doesn't really matter that much. It is just a check. They'll probably make it regardless.

SPavel

22:00

My #dnd centaur character had to disguise herself somehow

Tweeted by NealaAppaloosa on February 7, 2018 at 9:36 PM

nitsua60

22:22

@SPavel I often have that passing thought, but then realize that the moment you end up saying to players "no, your character can't think that" or feel that or believe that it very quickly gets icky. In combat the exertion of one's will over another generally comes through as "you can't throw punches anymore because you're out cold." And we seem to have grown comfortable with that. In social scenes, though, mechanically exerting one's will over another...

Well let's just say I've never seen a way of doing that which was comfortable.

(Seen uncomfortable versions of it, but they're explicitly intended to be uncomfortable. But not the sort of discomfort I really want to bring to my "for funsies lets snag the dragon's gold" game.)

@Rubiksmoose Cite whatever you want, and tell people what you're citing. That's my laissez faire take on it.

BESW

However, there are games about social interaction where there's limits imposed by the game's mechanics and it's okay... because the group chose the game knowing those limits and why they exist.

eg, A Penny For My Thoughts scripts the table interaction to a pretty intense degree, and Misspent Youth scripts the kinds of resolutions you can have, and My Life With Master scripts the kinds of interactions you can have.

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 I like it. It means less policing and antagonizing about sources and the only conflicts would be those cases when sources disagree. So yup fully agree. Seems to be Meta's thoughts as well.

BESW

But each of those games is very explicitly about a particular kind of social interaction and has focused themes made clear going in. If you're playing Misspent Youth you know that "can't we all just get along and let each other do what they want" is a non-starter because it's a game about resisting an oppressive regime.

So when the mechanics kick you in the face for trying that, well. What did you expect, Pollyanna?

Similarly, Golden Sky Stories has Strong Opinions about what it is: "It isn’t a game where you fight with others. It isn’t a game where you compete with others. It’s a game where everyone works together to create a story." If you try to subvert that paradigm the system will kick out your attempt as a bad input.

The Oracle

22:56

2

Q: Buttons in the email settings pages look wrong

On Edit Email Settings, the save button has illegibly colored text: (I deleted my email from this field just for the screenshot. It looked like that even when I had one entered.) The same happens on the Newsletters settings page: Buttons should look like this instead:

bug design css

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