Root Access

@surfasb Really? I did such customization for a lot of people - for elderly things like "please remove all those advanced things and let me only the basic few ones", for other reorganizing of icons order etc. Ok, I am probably not normal according to MS :-D

surfasb

@Juhele Well this is according to their collected metrics.

How accurate that is is another debate.

Juhele

In fact after trying to customize WinMail few hours ago I would shout something likem "WTF!!!" - it looks like on MAC.

surfasb

You mean Outlook?

studiohack

@surfasb, no, there is a product called Windows Mail

free, IIRC

Juhele

@surfasb I mean the stupid thing that MS used to replace Outlook Express in Win7

surfasb

11:09 PM

@studiohack Ah, the replacement.

studiohack

oh, it replaced it? neat... may have to get that for my mother

surfasb

I thought we were talking about Office Ribbon??

studiohack

she still uses Outlook Express 6

surfasb

Ah well, Windows mail is yet another debate.

I prefer to stick to the subject.

studiohack

I use Outlook & it rules. 'nuff said.

surfasb

11:11 PM

But if we can agree the Office Ribbon was good for Office users, then let's move on.

You should read the stories about the Ribbon. It was NOT a light decision. There was intense resistance to it.

Plus, think about the guts it takes to radically modify a program that is widely considered as Microsoft's cash cow.

If they made no new versions after 2003, it would probably STILL be the best selling productivity suite.

I can only imagine how nervous they were to even propose such a change.

Juhele

Ok, it helped me to gain new LibreOffice users :-) And in fact, many people arond me still use office 2000 - 2003 and have no intention to upgrade ...

surfasb

Remember when the Lenovo Thinkpad tried to get rid of the red eraser?

I thought there was going to be a riot on the Internet.

Juhele

@surfasb Do you mean trackpoint?

surfasb

@Juhele Ya, I forgot what it was called.

Journeyman Geek

ya

surfasb

11:16 PM

People have never taken change well, even if it will be good for them.

Journeyman Geek

eh, trackpoints are awesome

Juhele

I think there is still trackpoint on their Thinkpads. And I have something similar on my Dell Latitude.

Journeyman Geek

they're a superior laptop mousing tool

surfasb

Whether people like or dislike a certain change is thus irrelevant to the merits of the change.

Ya, there was no way they are going to get rid of the trackpoint.

To even suggest it, you put your life in your own hands.

Psycogeek

@Juhele Outlook express was simple, took multiple accounts, worked without any strain, had all the buttons to control I did need, and none of the buttons that i did not need. clean fast , and i was used to it. Even if you hack live isnt it going to change every 6months and become obsolete with some new plan they change in it?

Juhele

11:19 PM

There was also significant change in Linux - changes between KDE3 and KDE4. Or GNOME and Unity in Ubuntu. :-)

Journeyman Geek

3-4 wasn't as drastic as gnome-> unity

surfasb

@Psycogeek They are changing it because the majority of those users are using a web interface.

Journeyman Geek

and i think the gnome forks (cinnamon et al) have more traction than the KDE3 fork (trinity)

surfasb

@Psycogeek Small free native clients just shouldn't be a feature of the OS.

Psycogeek

@surfasb they want to get in using mobile.

Journeyman Geek

11:20 PM

@surfasb: most OS devs seem to disagree

surfasb

@JourneymanGeek Like I said, change is hard.

Journeyman Geek

@surfasb: Change tends to add features, not remove them

Juhele

@Psycogeek Yeah, exactly what my sister needs now. However, it is almost impossible to run it in Win7. :-(

Journeyman Geek

@Juhele: just install thunderbird ;p

Juhele

@JourneymanGeek Agree. This is the way, that for example Open/LibreOffice uses - almost the same GUI - just add features. So no problem to find my favourite tools after upgrade. :-)

surfasb

11:23 PM

@JourneymanGeek Nah, it should be both.

@JourneymanGeek Otherwise you'd get overlap and overall bloat.

Psycogeek

@Juhele i was expecting that some hacker would create a way to stuff it back in to windows 7 someday. saw a few of, what looked like the idea of doing that in the making. it must be harder than it looks :-)

Journeyman Geek

@Juhele: OTOH, that means bloat

Juhele

@JourneymanGeek things are unfortunately so easy: superuser.com/questions/391355/outlook-express-in-win7

surfasb

The likeability of a feature will rarely if ever correspond with the merits of the feature.

Which is unfortunate.

It just goes to show how poor we are, as humans, at determining whether a change will ultimately help us.

We suck at math.

Journeyman Geek

@Juhele: edge case!

surfasb

11:25 PM

We overestimate our own abilities. etc etc.

@Juhele I guess the sister could of not used the built-in magnifier?

Psycogeek

@Juhele i am using the thunderbird, it has SKINS which can change it, but even after finding a skin I liked, it is not old school clean and pure , OE was almost DOS :-) in its look.

Juhele

@Psycogeek What about Claws Mail? Just installed it for my grandpa and he looked to be satisfied

@surfasb the built-in magnifier is just a toy and not seriously usable for visually impaired

surfasb

@Juhele Nm, the Zoomtext connects to a webcam.

Journeyman Geek

@Juhele: i wonder if it'd work with a text only mail client

Juhele

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, this is why I was thinking about using Resource Hacker to "customize" Winmail a little.

surfasb

11:30 PM

@Juhele Well, the only visually impaired person I know uses the magnifier.

It's just my context. He's legally blind and has only one eye. . .

Psycogeek

@Juhele nice raw look

Juhele

@surfasb No, you do not have to use a webcam. Zoomtext is working "inside" OS.

@surfasb Ok, I have probably more information as my vision is also not good as it could be :-) So working in OS using default settings is very very uncomfortable for me. I like my 24inch LCD in 1600x900, with Arial Bold fonts and large icons...

surfasb

@Juhele I'll agree that not all programs play well with a scaled UI.

That is not a secret.

Juhele

@JourneymanGeek Hmm, also though about text client, but those I saw were not well-arranged. They always looked so "hardcore" with console look etc.

surfasb

Not too hardcore, but not too softcore.

This is why I sympathize with graphics and UI designers.

Psycogeek

11:41 PM

@surfasb The programmers are always being inundated with 1 person who wants a feature, and 10 people who want a bug fixed. if the 1 was not so persistent about their feature for 1, the bug for 10 might have got fixed :-)

Juhele

@surfasb Hm, while for example this linuxexpres.cz/uploads/gallery/original/3282.jpg is very simple and clean but still user-friendly approach, this shakthimaan.com/installs/alpine-email-images/4-alpine-inbox.jpg is hardcore in my opinion. And Windows Mail compared to both is eye-candy :-)

surfasb

@Psycogeek It will always be like this. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Psycogeek

dittos The needs of the many must outweigh the squeaky wheel

surfasb

@Psycogeek It will never work that way. We as humans suck at math.

And statistics.

We can add debate and debate flow to that list on top of that.

Juhele

I do not like math. brrr :-)

surfasb

11:44 PM

:)

Psycogeek

@Juhele the regular windows mail, some aspects of it are hackable. i have never opened it to even see the outside. your trying to hack windows Live ? mail?

Juhele

@Psycogeek Yeah, if it is possible ...

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Stack Overflow Blog: Stack Exchange Open Source Projects

Posted by Jeff Atwood on February 18th, 2012

While we decided a long time ago that we wouldn’t be open-sourcing the core Stack Exchange Q&A engine, we do try very hard to open source as many useful parts of our code as we can.

As Stack Overflow is one of the most prominent Microsoft .NET-created sites for software developers in the world, we feel that it’s part of our mission to help lead fellow .NET developers — and the most effective way to do that is by contributing some of the code that we use to build Stack Overflow and Stack Exchange back to the greater .NET developer community as reusable open source packages. …

Psycogeek

i dont even know the diff, between windows mail and windows Live. it only took me 3 seconds in their forum, seeing all the hacked accounts at Live, to know that i wasnt going there.

Juhele

@Psycogeek according to this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Live_Mail it is the 2011 version

And we are not going to use any windows live accounts - just as a client for gmail and some other local mailing provider.

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