The Upper Room

Cerberus

04:00

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, it depends on how you look at it. But Tartarus pretty similar, like most ancient concepts of punishment after death.

AJ Henderson

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 technically hell isn't really mentioned, it's kind of an unknown exactly what it is other than the fact that it is unpleasant and where those who reject God go. It's also described as being a lake of fire and sulfur, but that's also in Revelations, which may or may not be highly metaphorical since it was a dream

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, I suppose. But Hades is a grim place, it's not at all fun.

AJ Henderson

hades is the term used throughout the new testament

Cerberus

Not the Hebrew word?

AJ Henderson

even though translated as hell in some modern translations

Cerberus

04:02

Well, Hell is probably a better translation.

AJ Henderson

the point though is that all we really know for sure is that it is unpleasant and where people and beings that reject God go and it is a place of eternal suffering

beyond that, not much is spelled out

Cerberus

Aren't there seven circles of Hell?

And Limbo?

AJ Henderson

christianity.about.com/od/whatdoesthebiblesay/a/…

Cerberus

And Jeroen Bosch?

AJ Henderson

@Cerberus depends who you ask, but if you ask me, no there are not

Cerberus

04:04

AJ Henderson

I say that as a non-denominational protestant speaking from a Biblically based theology

Cerberus

(As you see, Surrealism is rather older than Dali.)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Well, in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus describes two afterlifes: heaven, and Hades, where there is torment.

AJ Henderson

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, there is certainly a place of suffering as an alternative to hell

that much we know

it's just scarce on details

Anonymous

@Cerberus Well, I meant to say that Christian philosophy about love and grace can be quite attractive and idealistic. And its emphasis on promise of salvation for repentance sounds emotionally comforting...

AJ Henderson

04:07

and my general opinion is that it isn't worth bothering to theorize on it too much since I'm not going there

Anonymous

@Cerberus And Jesus' life and teachings can be, well, admirable, given the situation that he was in at the time.

Cerberus

@Anonymous I don't know...if you are really attracted to that, won't you just become a Christian? Or, if you do not believe in the central tenets of Christianity, will this emotional comfort affect you at all?

@AJHenderson Not where? To Hell? How do you know?

@Anonymous That is true.

But the part of his teachings that is not necessarily religious can also be found in non-religious figures.

Like peacefulness, charity...

Or how do you say that, turn the other cheek.

AJ Henderson

@Cerberus because I know I have a saving faith in Christ

thus I am forgiven and don't get sent to hell

Cerberus

You're no real Calvinist, are you? No predestination?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AJHenderson Unless Theodore A Jones's interpretation is correct, in which case you become unglued, or unstrung, or something.

AJ Henderson

04:19

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 yes, but I know that my core theology is correct, in part from revelation in faith and in part from having seen what seems very strongly to be God working in my life with several situations that seem well and truly both pivotal and highly unlikely occurring in my life.

the combined impact is that I'm personally 100% confident in my core beliefs

it might not be sufficient to convince someone else, but it met my burden of proof

but I also distill my core beliefs down to the absolute minimum which I believe to be true with absolute certainty. Most interpretation based stuff isn't part of that core view

@Cerberus I'm actually both pro-predestination and pro-free will

I believe that the argument that you can't have both is a logical falicy

even if I was pre-designed in such a way that it was known that I'd make a given choice, it doesn't mean it isn't my choice

and doesn't mean I don't make the choice freely

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@AJHenderson Whoops, I was only joking about that. Seems like TAJ likes to throw around threats of damnation.

Cerberus

Kant has free will v. predestination as one of his classical antinomies.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Anyway it's time for me to head off.

AJ Henderson

yeah, getting near that time for me too

Cerberus

@AJHenderson But Calvin vehemently disagreed with you with respect to knowing you will go to Heaven.

Same here, nearing bed time.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

04:26

hey, that reminds me. Cerb has three heads. So does he head off? or heads off?

Cerberus

Hah. Hah.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

heads off

AJ Henderson

@Cerberus I would disagree with Calvin in that regard

Cerberus

Cerberus heads off.

@AJHenderson Noted.

So adieu!

AJ Henderson

but not in the notion that God must initiate calling or that we have to respond if called, but I believe that to preserve free will God only calls those who he knows would choose it.

if that makes sense

it's a hard concept to explain in person, let alone in chat

because it kind of screws with your mind a bit

Cerberus

04:30

Calvin says that you simply cannot know God's plan with you, and that whether or not you will make the right choices out of your own free will has already been predestined.

But I must go to bed.

G'bye!

Does Elisha speak?

04:48

0

Q: Can we not feed the trolls on chat?

I'm posting this knowing full well that I'm guilty of it myself... We've already discussed trolls in comments and in questions/answers, but chat has never come up in this Meta as far as I can see. That leaves chat, as a free-for all. We occasionally get users that use chat just to stir up argu...

discussion

Jack Douglas

07:55

@TheodoreA.Jones Please pop in here to chat if you'd like to rather than us try in here (see above!)

@Cerberus Do you have a reference in Calvin's writings for that? From my limited knowledge, I think it is a myth, eg see here: biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol11/calvin_lane.pdf

well, maybe a misunderstanding rather than a myth…

Caleb

08:47

@TheodoreA.Jones Hey whoa there man, that's not OK. This is a public chat room, but you do have to earn the privilege of participating. You may not come in here and tell other people to leave. If you'd like to continue participating, you must observe some of the social norms including not insulting people. You don't have to like or even agree with these norms, but your choices are to play by them or not play at all. Think about it for a while, then participate or not based on your choice.

wax eagle

10:00

@Anonymous I'd prefer openly to clandestinely :). I'd consider atheism a bad thing, but your mileage may vary

Mark Anthony Songer

12:37

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

So, I'm fairly new here but have picked up most of the nuances as far as I can see. However, I do have a question about the voting numbers. On one question I asked (hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/q/5789/2604) there is the normal voting symbols and number to the left of my question but immediately below that is a smaller number that looks like it would go by a comment but there is no comment there. What is this smaller number?

AJ Henderson

13:38

@MarkAnthonySonger does it have a star next to it? normally that's the number of people who have Favorited your question

though page layouts can differ slightly from site to site

yeah, that's the number of people who have favorited it

it's basically SE's version of subscribing or bookmarking a question

Anonymous

@waxeagle The alternative is the "Closet Atheist". Sort of like "Closet Homosexual".

@waxeagle Are you using the modern definition of atheism or the ancient definition of atheism? In ancient times, people had a different understanding of atheism.

@waxeagle For instance, if I had worshipped the gods, and you refuse to worship the same gods in the same manner, that would be considered "atheism".

wax eagle

@Anonymous essentially? Generally internet atheists aren't shy about it.

@Anonymous modern AFAICT, he's the one who made the claim to being an atheist, not me.

Caleb

14:32

2

A: Can we not feed the trolls on chat?

I just want to give some guidelines as best I can. The important thing here is that we don't mind crackpots. We want to welcome them, want to engage with them and learn about how they came about their beliefs. They are as welcome here as those of us who hold more orthodox beliefs. However, if t...

2

wax eagle

14:52

I hope I put enough emphasis on comporting ourselves well and not descending to the level of agitators

(were 3 bullets to that effect enough?)

I can add more

Mark Anthony Songer

@AJHenderson Ah, thanks, AJ! There is no star there but I'm going to assume that is what it means

wax eagle

@MarkAnthonySonger should be a circle with a light grey star, if you click the button it will be yellow or blue or something

orange with a white star

Caleb

15:12

@waxeagle I think 3 out of 5 is an appropriate ratio. The whole post was good ... that and it's relevance to chat was why i posted it here.

wax eagle

thanks. I wanted to make sure people are aware that we're watching stuff like this closely and that it's not just us

and that for the most part the mods of religion sites get along, collaborate and try to present a unified front across the network :).

Cerberus

> We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction.

> We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from [2211] access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment

@JackDouglas — Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, book III chapter 21 section 7.

> Paul declares that it cannot be known unless God, throwing works entirely out of view, elect those whom he has predestined. His words are, “Even so then at this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work,” (Rom. 11:6) — Calvin, ibidem, section 1.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus and you interpret that as "Calvin say[ing] that you simply cannot know God's plan with you" right?

Cerberus

15:29

Yes, and also as "good works cannot change your predestined fate".

TRiG

News: New Platform Launched for Christians to Speak out in Favor of LGBT Equality

Cerberus

But I haven't read all of his work, and he may very well say contradictory things in other passages.

Greetings @TRiG.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus do you see a contradiction between "good works cannot change your predestined fate" and "good works are evidence of God's prior sovereign choice of election"?

Cerberus

No.

Jack Douglas

OK :)

So what exactly has Calvin said that you interpret as "you simply cannot know God's plan with you"?

Cerberus

15:40

But I do see a contradiction between the latter and "We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth".

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus so "free mercy, without any respect to human worth" is incompatible with "good works are evidence of God's prior sovereign choice of election"?

isn't it just a question of order?

Cerberus

I would say so, yes?

Jack Douglas

Calvin believed that good works were inevitable in the elect, but that good works did not cause election

Cerberus

How can good works be a sign of one's predestined salvation if salvation is "without any respect to human worth"?

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus God freely elects those without good works and causes those whom he elects to perform good works.

Cerberus

15:43

@JackDouglas Inevitable, perhaps; but not proof. More like a necessary condition, perhaps? A condition for us to draw the conclusion that we will be saved, rather than a condition for God to save us.

@JackDouglas I'm sure he may do that, but I think many people doing good works are still doomed, according to Calvin.

(So not a sufficient condition.)

Caleb

15:57

@Cerberus Necessary yes, but not necessary condition in the sense of prerequisite. More like necessary effect or resulting condition.

Cerberus

So you don't think Calvin meant that God may still have doomed some who do good works?

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus He is using 'good works' in a technical sense

Caleb

@Cerberus Yes, very much so -- with the caveat that they aren't actually good works because—not being done in Christ—they don't actually please the father and only appear as good works to egocentric humans.

@Cerberus There are none who do good works, so that's a moot point.

Cerberus

@Caleb Right, that is a way to reconcile things.

@Caleb Why not?

@JackDouglas How do you mean?

Calvin does not seem to explain what he means by "good works" in that chapter.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus the Bible uses a different definition of 'good' to the definitions we commonly accept: in this case Paul defines good (or 'not sinning') as being only those deeds that proceed from faith. Calvin would be comfortable assuming his readers are familiar with his (or Paul's) definitions.

An aside: one of the highest 'sins' under the biblical definition is assuming the right to judge for oneself between good and evil

Cerberus

16:13

Sure, I'm sure Calvin would agree.

But he keeps saying salvation is entirely unrelated to opera.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus have you another quote for that? I'm afraid I haven't read all his works :)

Cerberus

You haven't??

shocked

Jack Douglas

My guess is that he is asserting the lack of causal relationship not any relationship whatsoever

Cerberus

Possibly.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus :)

Cerberus

16:19

He does say it is a "sign" somewhere else, but that's not very conclusive either.

Jack Douglas

These guys were speaking in the context of a raging battle between themselves and the Catholic church and what they say has to be understood in that context. When Norman Schwarzkopf spoke about "Hail Mary" during the Gulf War we didn't assume he had changed the subject and was suddenly talking about American Football (or religion!) :)

I'm not sure it is possible to interpret what they are saying without immersing yourself in the history of their times to at least some degree

Cerberus

Sure, it is about indulgences and the hierarchy.

Sola fide, sola scriptura.

Jack Douglas

Are you interested in Calvinism for a particular reason may I ask?

Cerberus

Not really.

I don't remember why it came up...

But my country has a Calvinist tradition, although it is now all but dead.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus Not Switzerland?

Cerberus

16:30

Holland.

I'm actually not sure how ubiquitous Calvinism was in Switzerland, despite being his birthplace?

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus pretty ubiquitous by the end of his life I think

I'm not far from Holland, nr London, England

My friends used to live there: they liked it very much

Cerberus

Great.

I like England too, although I have only been there once, on vacation.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus It's also not got much Calvinism left ;)

Cerberus

Yeah, it is the same everywhere in Europe...

Jack Douglas

Are you religious yourself, do you have a faith?

Cerberus

16:38

Nope.

You?

Jack Douglas

Was athiest, now Christian, but still confused!

I have a science background, Physics degree etc, and it was that that led me into religion I think

@Cerberus so athiest? agnostic?

Cerberus

Haha, still confused?

How long were you an atheist before returning to the faith?

And why did science lead you to it?

@JackDouglas Something like that, yes.

Christianity is to me mainly an historical phenomenon. I hardly know any Christians in person; and those that might believe don't talk about it.

I guess religion was never something one talked about here.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus As far back as I can remember until I was about 30

I went to University looking for answers in Physics to the big 'why?' questions

My personal journey there left me bitterly disappointed: I'm not sure why I'd built up such high expectations

KitFox

@JackDouglas Well, see, there's your problem right there. hitches up pants

Jack Douglas

I picked the Bible up almost randomly vaguely understanding that it contained claims about life after death etc, but fully expecting to find it utterly 'sneerworthy'

KitFox

16:53

Hey @TRiG! I guess The Upper Room is the new The Bridge these days.

TRiG

@KitFox I often hang out in these parts.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus That is how it feels here too except in small pockets you have to actively look for…

TRiG

@KitFox Rarely see you here, though.

Jack Douglas

@KitFox me?

KitFox

Oh. Let me fix that.

So you laugh.

Jack Douglas

16:55

What are 'pants'?

KitFox

@TRiG True that. I have been finding myself in other chat rooms these days, wandering aimlessly.

@JackDouglas Trousers, if you're BrE.

Jack Douglas

Sorry for my extreme dumbness

KitFox

Sorry, I didn't think to check first.

Cerberus

@JackDouglas Were you raised in a religion?

Jack Douglas

@KitFox Wait, you are EL&U that means you are super clever with words and will make me look ridiculous if I speak to you :P

TRiG

16:56

@KitFox I'd always ignored SE chat before being almost forcebly dragged into this one way back in the mists of time. So since then, this is the one I hang out in most, probably. Mainly being annoying.

EL&U chat is also awesome, but often moves far too fast for me to keep up with.

KitFox

@JackDouglas Nah, that's just an act. I'm really num'r than a hake.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus No, though my mum retained a sort of 'comfort blanket' Christianity. She married outside her faith and my Father's views gradually overwhelmed her I think

Cerberus

@JackDouglas Yeah I'm sure they are there. The problem is that some of the most outspoken Christians here are evangelical or extremely orthodox ones, who are generally not very well loved. The moderate ones don't talk about it.

KitFox

@TRiG When I was reading the transcript, you were well-thought-of, or so was my impression.

2

Jack Douglas

@TRiG This is true ^^^^^

Cerberus

16:59

@TRiG You were praised here yesterday, I think, or at least brought up an a positive example...

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus Are they 'not well loved' because they are seen as cold, out of touch and judgemental?

KitFox

Fanatical and insane, I'd guess.

Also judgemental.

TRiG

@KitFox Well, ish.

Jan 28 at 18:14, by El'endia Starman

@TRiG I'm guessing he didn't really have anything in mind. Far and away, you're one of the most dissenting users of this site that we keep around and actually appreciate. :P

KitFox

Oh El. I should see if he's doing NaNo this year.

Cerberus

@JackDouglas We have two main orthodox sects: the evangelicals, who are seen as pushy; and the extremely orthodox ones, who are seen as judgemental and repressed, as in no activities on Sundays etc. Although actually the evangelicals are also seen as repressive in that they want laws against abortion and such. But those are small minorities. The two largest groups are Catholics and the Reformed group, who can be anything from somewhat orthodox to extremely liberal.

@KitFox I don't know, we don't have anything like your Westborough Church.

@TRiG I like "keep around".

Like a pet.

KitFox

17:04

He is rather nice when he sits in your lap and purrs.

Cerberus

I'm sure.

KitFox

See now? I have a star too.

makes sassy face

hee hee hee Excellent rubs hands together

Anonymous

@JackDouglas I thought Christianity as a whole was supposed to be a nice comfy comfort blanket.

@JackDouglas Imagining that God will always be at your side sounds so comforting.

Caleb

@Anonymous Your mistake. Quite the contrary actually, at least for the duration of this life.

Cerberus

I.e. it depends on your sect.

KitFox

17:16

My sect life is none of your business.

4

Does Elisha speak?

1

Q: What should be done with a question based on a false premise?

So, this question: Is it moral or immoral for Satan to punish souls for immoral acts? is predicated on completely false premise. The assumption is that Satan is in charge of Hell - an assumption often made by non-Christians - but one often made nonetheless. The answers (correctly IMHO) point...

discussion

0

Q: How can moderators, site helpers, and administrators become more noticeable on this site?

Seriously, without going to the user's profile, these people look like everybody else. Maybe moderators should have color-coded names or have special profile pictures or speak in a distinct dialect or anything that makes them more recognizable from everyone else, so that it's easier to contact a ...

feature-request

Jon Ericson

@KitFox Have another star! ;-)

KitFox

bows with a flourish

> In Dante's Inferno, that may have been the case ...

Really? I don't remember that at all being the case in The Inferno.

wax eagle

can't say i've read it :(

KitFox

17:31

Really? We read it in freshman English.

Well, a translation of it.

wax eagle

my freshman english course was comp...I think our Cultural heritage of the west course assigned at least part of it but I probably didn't actually read it

Jack Douglas

@KitFox are you trying to intimidate us?

:p

@Anonymous That rather depends on what kind of God is at your side

For me the thought is a mixture of comfort, awe and genuine fear

but perhaps your emphasis was on 'imagining'? ;)

Anonymous

@Caleb You mean, Christianity is supposed to be a pain-in-the-neck?

KitFox

@JackDouglas Not at all. I don't know what they teach in freshman English these days.

I guess I shouldn't say that I didn't think The Inferno was intimidating.

Anonymous

@KitFox I think it depends on where you live, what school you go to, what teacher you have, and what book is chosen for the specific course.

Jack Douglas

17:39

@Anonymous that's what the Bible says

@KitFox I used to pride myself on not having read a book of any sort for 15 years

(I can actually read, though I'm a bit slow)

Anonymous

@JackDouglas Well, maybe it's a way to suggest that it's a good thing to be a martyr. Like the other member here - Islam - who tries to be a representative of Islam.

@JackDouglas How slow?

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous not very slow, and I'm not dyslexic. Partly it's lack of time these days and partly impatience. Back then it was some macho nonsense

fortunately I married a woman who loves books so my children have a good example

@Anonymous you mean what Paul was saying?

Anonymous

@JackDouglas Well, the epistle to Timothy was traditionally believed to be written by Apostle Paul, or Saint Paul.

James T

@KitFox Quite right: Dante's Satan is completely powerless. Perhaps Milton's Satan was intended?

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous well whoever wrote it seems to be saying persecution is inevitable, not desirable: "all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted"

KitFox

17:47

@JamesT Possibly...

Better to reign in Hell, I suppose that would convey the impression that he reigned.

Anonymous

@JackDouglas And apostasy or backsliding is generally frowned upon. So, theologically, once you've made a commitment to Christ, you'll pretty much be bound for life.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous frowned on by whom?

Anonymous

@JackDouglas What denomination are you? You told me that you were from the UK. Are you Anglican or Anglo-Catholic?

@JackDouglas The Church officials, presumably.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous I've attended both evangelical Anglican and 'free' evangelical churches (Anglican can mean almost anything here it varies so much from church to church)

Anonymous

@JackDouglas So, are your wife and children Christian too?

Jack Douglas

17:52

@Anonymous do you mean 'do they profess faith'?

or 'are they elect'?

Anonymous

@JackDouglas Ummm... Do they attend church with you? Do they attend Sunday school? If so, then I'd recognize them as being raised Christian.

@JackDouglas I thought Anglican was supposed to mean Church of England or the Queen's church.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous they attend church and sit through the service with us: yes we are raising them Christian. You might find wikipedia helpful on just how broad Anglicanism is!

Anonymous

@JackDouglas Plus, there are so many American denominations that stem from the Anglican church! Episcopal, Methodist, Quaker, to name a few.

@JackDouglas Do you think Christianity is really an umbrella term for many disparate faiths all lumped together, like Hinduism?

KitFox

You must be a Skeptics.SE user.

We had a running joke about how the questions there were worded.

"Does X really Y?"

Anonymous

@KitFox You mean "Is X really Y?"

@KitFox Are you talking to me?

KitFox

18:06

Yes.

No, I meant does.

Like "Does tinfoil really protect my brain from mind-control rays?"

Anonymous

@KitFox I have been on the Skeptics.SE before, and I have asked one question. I am not sure if you would consider that being an user on the site.

"User", in my opinion, seems to refer to regular users.

KitFox

Depends on the context, I suppose.

Jack Douglas

@Anonymous Do you mean is that how I use the term?

Cerberus

@Anonymous In a way...but aren't all of the names of the major religions just that? The sects have some things in common, but there are also many differences.

2

Anonymous

@Cerberus And it seems to me that people like focusing on the differences, and failure to abide by orthodoxy is heresy.

Cerberus

18:11

Yeah.

In most religious communities, heretics are punished more severely than heathens, I believe.

KitFox

Sure. Ignorance is one thing, trolling another.

Cerberus

It also depends on your definition of "religion". Some people equate a religion to a small set of tenets that one has to (profess to) believe in; then perhaps most or all Christians are part of the same religion. The Catholic Church would have this set be extremely large, including all Papal bulls and such. Other Christian sects would base their sense of belonging to the same sect on a much smaller set, or not mainly on tenets at all.

Historians and sociologists, again, usually see tenets are only one of the many elements that make up a religion; they also don't think there is one fixed definition of "religion" that is evidently superior to other definitions. Ethnic, cultural, social, behaviourist, self-perceiving and other criteria are considered very important.

Cerberus

18:28

Text walls. Always the best way to silence rooms.

KitFox

Well, there's your problem right there.

Expecting folks to read.

Jack Douglas

I'm still reading it

Cerberus

Damn, I should not have posted that single-line line.

Anonymous

@Cerberus Using "Darn" is more polite. ;)

@Cerberus You know what "Damn" implies.

Cerberus

Oops.

I know some Christian sects don't like it when you use religious terms in vain...

I said "darn" and "gosh" all the time yesterday in this room.

Jack Douglas

18:39

@Cerberus we don't like it when we do :p

Anonymous

@Cerberus Instead of saying Jesus' name, you might as well say, "Geez..."

Or "Gazooks" instead of "God's hooks".

Cerberus

@JackDouglas Is that so? I know there are sects that don't like it when other people do it either...

@Anonymous Yeah I know.

God's hooks, really?

Jack Douglas

The idea that someone who rejects Jesus needs to clean up their language or stop smoking or whatever is pretty laughable from a Christian perspective :)

Cerberus

What the heck is that supposed to mean, God's hooks?

@JackDouglas Well, is there one Christian perspective?

(...notice "heck".)

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus Those guys are not concerned with 'winning' you, just 'judging' you. None of that is to say we don't appreciate the kindness you're showing by refraining…

@Cerberus to me, yes, there is true Christian and false Christian

others may use the word differently

Cerberus

18:42

@JackDouglas Well, or they think they are doing me / the world / God a service.

@JackDouglas Isn't that a bit...presumptive?

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus The question they should be asking is whether you perceive it that way!

Cerberus

Yeah?

Can't people be helped in ways they do not recognise as such?

Like...alcohol taxes?

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus probably, idk: I don't worry too much about that because I'm too busy worrying about what whether it's in line with God's angle

@Cerberus yes, true, but at a minimum empathy is required to help anyone

Cerberus

@JackDouglas Understandable.

@JackDouglas I don't know about that...

Not "knowledge about the world"?

Jack Douglas

How do you mean? maybe an example would help?

Cerberus

18:45

If I know x will harm anyone subjected to it, I may seek to prevent x from affecting a stranger I will never meet.

I can perhaps help people in Africa by removing import restrictions against African agriculture, even if I have never met those Africans.

So no real empathy.

Jack Douglas

Is it helpful to prevent someone from suicide?

Cerberus

It can be?

At least I'm sure many people would say it can be.

Jack Douglas

I guess you have to define 'helpful', but I do take your point

Although perhaps there is concern for your fellow man motivating your action

Cerberus

Sure.

But people who think using religion terms in vain may harm my soul would seem to be concerned for my well being.

Or whatever their reasons are.

I'm not saying they are always trying to help when they ask others not to do so.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus perhaps sometimes they are but often is the outworking of a downward-looking sneering and false superiority

cf the Pharisees in the Bible

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2018:9-14&version=ESV

Cerberus

18:51

Perhaps the distinction between "why people say they do x" and "why people really do x consciously" and "why they really do x subconsciously" is important.

Usually the three overlap to some degree in someone's action, but not entirely, and sometimes only barely.

Jack Douglas

@Cerberus I think it's really important

we can fake for a while but what really motivates us reveals itself eventually

Cerberus

Right, (excessive) pride is nearly universally considered...questionable, at best.

Jack Douglas

it's behind most of the nastiest things I do

Cerberus

Hmm...

But there are so many other sins, cardinal ones, too...

Jack Douglas

19:11

@Cerberus there are so many ways to love God and your neighbour too I'd argue :)

Cerberus

I'm sure.

Jack Douglas

@TRiG Do you know the answer to this? I'm very curious to know whether it is even true

wax eagle

@JackDouglas I can affirm that it's true, don't know the reasoning

my guess is that it's a similar rationale to the reason they don't celebrate the rest of the common holidays, that they are derived from pagan practices

Jack Douglas

no Christmas either then? Or is it celebrated differently?

wax eagle

@JackDouglas nope, just ignored

AJ Henderson

19:51

@JackDouglas I do have to admit I always found people who have a problem with Halloween but not Christmas to be a bit amusing since one thing we know for sure is that Jesus wasn't born anywhere near December

Cerberus

The English Puritans outlawed Christmas celebrations...

And Easter.

KitFox

@waxeagle Is that it? My aunt is a Jehovah's Witness, she said they didn't celebrate birthdays because it was prideful and also not nice to celebrate when Jesus was dead and stuff.

But she was a late convert and we don't talk much.

wax eagle

@KitFox honestly I don't know, that was my impression, but it's been a while since I've regularly engaged with an active JW (We can't seem to get any to participate here), and generally they aren't exactly forth coming about their beliefs

KitFox

Not forthcoming? How many have you had on your doorstep?

wax eagle

the ones who participate here end up posting copypasta direct from the watchtower

KitFox

20:00

;)

wax eagle

@KitFox heh :) sadly not many, I'm never home during the day and even if I was I live in the sticks

AJ Henderson

20:14

@KitFox we had some JWs show up on our doorstep the day that we were hosting a Youth for Christ staff picnic that afternoon. We almost invited them back for the afternoon just to see hilarity ensue.

Does Elisha speak?

0

Q: What is wrong with this answer?

I asked a question yesterday and have received only this answer so far. I personally would not downvote it (nor upvote it), but it has received 6 downvotes without a single comment. So what's up with that? You know I hate drive by downvoting, so I would like to hear what people think about the p...

discussion answers

Anonymous

20:43

@JackDouglas I hope I am not a Pharisee! I was just saying that 'damn' and 'hell' are known to have euphemisms.

Really, I was more focused on the linguistic aspect of religion.

@JackDouglas What if a person does not really reject Jesus and does not really accept Jesus but admire Jesus?

Affable Geek

23:02

It's going to be a close race with @DavidStratton to see who gets the "Stewardship" badge on close votes. Right now, I'm 4 "Review Close Votes" away, and he's only 13. Is there any way to get alerted when such a thing shows up in the queue?

(Yes, I'm petty - David's amazing, but to be so close on this one badge is fun :)

wax eagle

heh and it's a badge for doing good stuff on the site, I see no problem with some friendly competition :

)

Does Elisha speak?

23:20

0

Q: First person vs. Third person?

I understand that there are many Christians here, and like other religions, adherents can be very personal and sentimental toward their gods or God. On the other hand, this is a Stacks Exchange, and the Stacks Exchange is intended to be an academic website, catered to well-formulated factual ques...

discussion

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