The Upper Room

Anonymous

01:28

Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
Acts 2:41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Eh. Close enough.

@TheodoreA.Jones I see that you have included in parentheses that God authored the Bible and sent his word through angels.

Biblical inspiration

Biblical inspiration is the doctrine in Christian theology that the authors and editors of the Bible were led or influenced by God with the result that their writings may be designated in some sense the word of God. Etymology The word "inspiration" comes from the Latin noun inspiratio and from the verb inspirare. Inspirare is a compound term resulting from the Latin prefix in (inside, into) and the verb spirare (to breathe). Inspirare meant originally "to blow into", as for example in the sentence of the Roman poet Ovid: "conchae [...] sonanti inspirare iubet" ("he orders to blow into ...

If you scroll down the page, then the closest form of biblical inspiration that matches what you believe is Dictation Theory, which, in my opinion, is very similar to the Islamic view of the Qu'ran.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe that 40 men authored the Bible, and the characters conversed with God through angels.

So apparently, Theodore A. Jones is not a Jehovah's Witnesses; he is most likely an Evangelical.

David Stratton

@TheodoreA.Jones - I just reviewed a couple of your suggested edits. I rejected both of them for the same reason, and as a courtesy, I'm posting this to explain. It is not O.K. to change the meaning of another user's post to match your own theological point. If you have an answer to post that is different than another one, post your own answer. This isn't a rejection of your theological points, just a friendly explanation of what is and isn't acceptable on a StackExchange site.

3

The key issue is that the edits changed the meaning of the post, not what you posted, in and of itself.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton Does your profile picture portray your child? He looks adorable!

David Stratton

@Anonymous - Yes. He's our fearless child. He's standing on top of our van. We walked out into the garage to see him out there, on top of the van, playing with the garage door opener.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton How in the world did he get up there?

David Stratton

@Anonymous Just stood on the bumper and climbed up the front. It's a Chevy Venture, which makes a surprisingly easy climb for adventurous little boys.

Anonymous

01:44

@DavidStratton I was just wondering, do you agree with Theodore A. Jones' belief in biblical inspiration - that God wrote the Bible wholly and truly?

David Stratton

I haven't been reading many of his posts, so I can't answer that yet... I'd have to read some of his stuff. I se he's ben active in here, too, but I haven't bothered to go and read the older posts.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton Did he scrap the paint off?

David Stratton

hang on and I can find a question on the site that tells what I believe about how God wrote the Bible... What I believe is basically called Plenary Inspiration...

Anonymous

@DavidStratton OK. Never mind. You don't believe the same thing as the other guy.

David Stratton

No. He had bare feet. That's the least of what our little one has done. Every day is an adventure with him. When he was two years old or so, he figured out how to open the window and crawl out of it to avoid nap time and go play outside instead.

Crawled out the window and went straight for the road. I saw him just as he was walking onto the road.

Flooded our basement three times in two weeks... All sorts of mischeif he gets into.

Anonymous

01:49

@DavidStratton So, how did he manage to avoid falling out of the house? There is usually a height from the windowsill to the floor. And the bedroom is typically on the second floor, unless it's a ranch-style house.

David Stratton

fortunately for him, the people that built this house put the air conditioner unit right under the window.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton Maybe it's safer to lock him inside.

David Stratton

H ecrawled doen to that and that's only three feet tall, so that was no problem for him to jump down.

Yep. He's six now, and much easier to handle.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton How old are you?

David Stratton

44.

I started old, and he was a surprise.

Anonymous

01:52

@DavidStratton So, he was born when you were 38, and at that time, he was a "surprise" or unexpected.

When did you convert to Christianity?

@DavidStratton Why did you convert to Christianity? What compelled you to convert to Christianity?

David Stratton

1999 December, I believe. It might have been January of 2000.

As far as what..... Long story.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton So, you have been a Christian for 13 years or so, and your child is presumably born in 2007, approximately. He's the only child?

@DavidStratton I like long stories. :)

David Stratton

No, he's not. There are four others.

Anonymous

@DavidStratton How old are they?

Five children! You must have been fertile!

David Stratton

I'm hesitant to post too much about my kids anywhere online, so forgive me for not giving specifics, but they range in age from 19 down to 6.

Anonymous

01:58

@DavidStratton Wow. You became a father at 25.

David Stratton

So, I'm just curious about why you find teh Christianity.SE site so fascinating....

Anonymous

@DavidStratton So, that means your firstborn child was raised atheist.

@DavidStratton I find it mystical.

David Stratton

So, forgive me, i don't spend too much time in chat, so i don't really know all that much about you other than your posts. I feel like I should know you better, given how long you've been around, and I apologize for not asking sooner. If I'm not mistaken, you're not Christian.

What are your beliefs?

Anonymous

@DavidStratton None whatsoever.

David Stratton

My first two weren't mine originally. They came with the marriage.

So atheist, or something else?

Anonymous

02:02

@DavidStratton Pretty much.

I have to admit that I actually like reading academic peer-reviewed journals in Religion and Philosophy and Biblical Studies.

Sometimes, they may talk about interpretation or hermeneutics of biblical scripture, which can be very thought-provoking and insightful.

David Stratton

there is a lot that's interesting out there. It's surprising how much variation there is within just Christianity. You'd expect differences in completely different religions, such as Christianity vs. Wicca, but it's all quite interesting to me, too.

I like this site mostly because when I come here I'm not surrounded completely by like-minded people, but everyone that follows the rules seems to get along and understand each other pretty well.

Of course, there are some like-minded people, but there are enough alternative views to keep it interesting.

@Anonymous] It's been nice chatting with you, but it's time for me to go. Talk to you again another time!

Anonymous

@DavidStratton Please check out my top answers on the SE sometime! :D

David Stratton

02:53

@TheodoreA.Jones - Just wondering if there's a reason you're not just posting your own answers? Once you've gained enough reputation, you'll be able to comment on answers you disagree with, instead of making invalid edits that are just going to be rolled back anyway.

I have the feeling you'd have a lot to contribute to the site, if you'd just follow the site guidelines. have you seen the help pages yet?

Theodore A. Jones

@DavidStratton Friend what I post are direct quotes that have been written in the scripture. I may have also made a comment or two. But it is the quote of what is written which exposes that the above assumptive is a contrary conclusion in regard to the quote.

David Stratton

@TheodoreA.Jones So... You're in effect saying "Hang the site guidelines I'm on a holy quest... I have God on my side, and I could care less about inconveniences such as etiquette, learning how to participate constructively, or following the same rules that apply to you heathens", is that about it?

2

I'm not arguing the Truth of what you're posting, I'm just saying there is a specific format and you'd get your message out better if you'd learn it is all.

The way you're going about it, it's all going to get deleted and do nobody any good.

Theodore A. Jones

03:12

@Anonymous The paren. is a ref. to Heb. 12:2 and in regard to Acts 7:53&Gal. 3:19.

How that twist got into your head was from your own misjudgement of using it.

TRiG

@TheodoreA.Jones Boo yah you suck is not, actually, a productive way to engage.

paging @Caleb.

Remind me next week to answer with a rebuttal. Of course we don't know all the details but we have some good clues. It's about glorifying himself and his son. — Caleb Sep 22 '11 at 21:12

TildalWave

03:49

Hi folks, came here on the wings of moderation, chat flagged ... @TheodoreA.Jones I'm not sure what you're referring to, but sounds to me it warrants a new answer, rather than edit of a previous one? There is IMO such a thing as "too substantial edits" LOL

Theodore A. Jones

@TildalWave Since you have not stated what you are referring to I have no idea of what you are referring to.

TildalWave

@TheodoreA.Jones Well I only read a few last posts so I'm referring to your last argument over those suggested edits

Krazer

04:05

@TheodoreA.Jones A soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.

TildalWave

behave or beehive?

David Stratton

@TheodoreA.Jones Credibility as a "Christian": Lost. "Religious circle jerks"? Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Matthew 15:11 "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."

Theodore A. Jones

@TildalWave Argument not posting them? If you people think the content of the last few post are inappropriate, callous, divisive etc. and make it your ordained task to remove them so be it. Contact with me is unnecessary in my opinion.

David Stratton

@TildalWave - feel free to delete my comments as offensive as well, if you like or if you feel they are over the line. I probably should have ignored it, behaved, and gone to bed. I'll take no offense.

TildalWave

@TheodoreA.Jones Well you see, this is where you're now presumptuous and wrong about it too. I didn't even read any of your suggested edits, in fact, I don't even frequent on this site. I'm only here because a chat flag was raised, that's all. And reading the few last posts on the flagged dispute, I thought to suggest there might be a point in posting separate answers instead. It's your choice then, what you do with a friendly advice.

David Stratton

04:14

I started out wanting to just give friendly advice, things just went south, somehow.\

Theodore A. Jones

@DavidStratton Your comment was not clear in regard to your intent.

TildalWave

@DavidStratton I don't think anything here is over the line that warrants moderation. It's a content dispute. Granted, you could all try to have a bit more patience with each other, but that's just my opinion. And another one is, that all this energy could be converted to more productive use for all involved. ;)

Theodore A. Jones

OPPOS reply was intended for tidal wave

TildalWave

@TheodoreA.Jones Tildal, not Tidal ;) But OK, I get that a lot.

David Stratton

Yeah, I started out trying to give friendly advice, but things went south. I'm going to duck out anyway. I should've left it alone once I realized it was going south.

Theodore A. Jones

04:20

@TildalWave posting an answer has been disallowed in regard to the content of my post since they do not conform to the contemporary multiplex of so called "Christian" assumptions.

TildalWave

@TheodoreA.Jones I think I could use a link to whichever question you're referring to, I can't be certain what you even meant by your last reply to me here. But the site's descriptions is IMO pretty clear:

> Christianity Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for committed Christians, experts in Christianity and those interested in learning more.

AJ Henderson

@TildalWave - oh hey there TildalWave

don't think I knew you hung out over here sometimes

TildalWave

@AJHenderson Hey! I don't, it was just some chat flag that brought me here. I'm not saying that I won't in the future tho, mind you. ;) But am currently rather busy on Space Exploration, we're still in the early public beta stage... You know the drill. :)

AJ Henderson

yeah, I do, I'm not over here all that often either since I tend to be kept busy between IT Sec, Photography and AV Production

but it's been a slow and long weekend

Krazer

@AJHenderson it's the best time to take a east for a bit~

TildalWave

04:29

Yup it's just been brought to my attention it's Labor day in US, I've been wondering why the site stats went down so much last few days :)

AJ Henderson

@TildalWave yeah, all the questioners went on vacation and all the answerers are hanging around chat wondering where all the questions went

and I'm 2 upvotes from mod tools on photography

which is killing me

Theodore A. Jones

@TildalWave Well now here we go. Succinctly stated Christians they ain't.

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones just as an FYI, I do believe that is also one of the site policies is that anyone who claims to be "Christian" will be allowed the label. It's probably one of the most uncomfortable rules, but one that is really necessary for civil discourse between parties that otherwise have mutually exclusive views but both believe themselves to be Christian. It can just be outlined that it doesn't track with some other groups viewpoint.

2

Theodore A. Jones

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 Theses "christians" over here are having none of that. Which is why they ain't what they are claiming.

AJ Henderson

there are certainly groups present within the community that claim to be Christian which I doubt that is the case, but this isn't the place to make those accusations.

but if a theological topic comes up, I will certainly present my view on it as long as they aren't specifically asking for some other group's view

@TheodoreA.Jones you don't know how any of the other people in a more or less anonymous chat room live, so I'm not sure how you can claim that anyone isn't obeying the law any more or less than you are.

TildalWave

04:39

@TheodoreA.Jones Perhaps, but there's another problem - redefining the meaning of Christianity would subsequently redefine the purpose of this site. So it's then a matter that should be discussed in Christianity Meta. I'm not saying your suggested edits were trying to do that, mind you (remember, I never read them), but I can see how that could potentially be a problem (if it was considered as such).

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones - how do you deal with Matthew 26:27Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of theb covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

Jesus himself stated that his blood is poured out for the forgiveness of sins

Theodore A. Jones

@AJHenderson Like I said 'here we go'. Haven't I already said to you previously that the word law in that statement is NOT referencing the OT written code of law? As far as the way people live I really don't give a tinker's dam.

AJ Henderson

how do you know if they follow whatever law you think it is

@TheodoreA.Jones and you also never did clarify where you get your justification for the alteration of the meaning of law in that verse

I mean, I could say that I think that Christ's crucifixion was actually a goat on the cross because in that verse Christ actually meant goat

but unless I have some evidence to back that up, it's just a crazy claim that is unfounded and untrue

even if you just think it is something that has been personally revieled to you, do you know of anyone else ever to have had the same revelation?

or do you honestly believe you are the first saved person since Christ walked the Earth?

I've tried to make sense of your arguments, even if I don't personally believe them, but they don't even hold together based on scripture unless you decide to throw out large portions of scripture. I'm about as open minded as they come in regards to hearing people out, but your viewpoint either doesn't hold together or you are not explaining it well

though I would be very interested in your response to Matthew 26:28

but alas, I must go to sleep now. Work in the morning

have a good night

or day

depending on whatever time it is where you are

Theodore A. Jones

@AJHenderson I don't think something in plain sight printed in who knows how many Bibles to be a personal 'revelation' just to me. Citations were referenced in my previous posts. See Heb. 7:12 as a start.

Who knows if he will even awake in the morning?

AJ Henderson

05:26

@TheodoreA.Jones have you ever found anyone else with your view?

none of the scriptures I have seen you reference support your view

unless you define Law to be something that you seem to have made up

fredsbend

05:42

I would like to request the mods delete this message. That is kind of a grotesque sexual image.

TildalWave

06:21

@fredsbend Well point taken, but there's just too much sensitivity in all of this IMO. Since I'm not a mod on this site, I don't know what the established procedure is regarding some implied profanity, so I'd prefer leaving it to site mods. But OK, I'll delete and if they so wish, they can later undelete it, I guess :\

fredsbend

@TildalWave We can wait for them. There is no rush.

I'm pretty sure that was the flagged message and the phrase in question was the reason.

Theodore has been difficult and somewhat obnoxious, but we have put up with much worse in the past.

@TildalWave If you wouldn't mind deleting my two messages with those phrases that would be great.

TildalWave

I bet you did. And FWIW, this wasn't even worth additional exposure that it now got. Mostly, it's just best to ignore it and not add fuel to the fire, in a manner of speaking. ;)

@fredsbend Done. Did I miss any?

fredsbend

06:40

@TildalWave Nope. Thanks.

TildalWave

No problem. Was rather interesting to stop by, albeit for all the wrong reasons. :) I'm slowly signing off for the day, you all have a good day!

Caleb

08:19

@fredsbend FYI that phrase in question is synonymous with "echo chamber" in some circles. However the number of circles where that is the primary meaning rather than being a sexual innuendo is increasingly small, so it's best avoided.

Thanks @TildalWave for the cleanup (and sage advice to all here).

And for everybody else's benefit: I'm here with a local mod hammer and I'm not afraid to use it. I know this is chat but this might be a good point to drop a link as a reminder:

8

Q: Guidelines toward a polite, academic tone

Because of the strong feelings associated with much of the subject matter at Christianity SE, the need for a polite, academic tone is particularly important. However, some people coming to Stack Exchange might not be familiar with what constitutes a polite, academic tone. Providing guidelines o...

@TheodoreA.Jones RE: recent batch of suggested edits ... editing is highly encouraged on this site but it is also done within certain boundaries. Editing to add your own commentary, rebut the original post or "fix" doctrinal points you think are wrong is not allowed. Edits may add content and improve the post, but you have to stick to keeping it in line with the authors original intent as judged by your peers who will review edits before they go live.

3

Please refrain from editing to correct doctrinal issues and clarifications should only be made when you are sure you are saying exact what the original author intended to say. If you disagree, leave it alone.

@TRiG Only a few weeks overdue. I've stuck it in a tab -- if I can figure out what I was going to say...

Wikis

10:25

Puzzled why this meta question attracted so many downvotes. Any ideas? meta.christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/2082/…

Caleb

11:21

@Wikis I would suggest that it's not useful for future visitors. It does not correctly identify a problem. It presents a dramatized view of a situation that didn't happen the way it is explained there (even the comments on tangential issues show a misunderstanding of of the content being commented on).

If anything useful happened it was setting the record straight so that one person stood a chance of properly understanding the site, but future visitors are not likely to benefit from the question itself.

It might also be because people straight up disagreed with the guy's interpretation of events and/or suggested solutions. Remember this is meta. And the posts reads as if he has an agenda for something he wants to see fixed. The votes might indicate people don't think there is anything broken there, or at least not the way he sees it.

Wikis

11:47

@Caleb: thanks for the reply, but I still don't get it. I thought he just presented three scenarios and said - which is it? You didn't read it like that? To me it was neutral.

Caleb

12:08

@Wikis No, I did not and do not read it as anything close to neutral. It reads like somebody who is not only confused on how a specific event happened and in general about the purpose of the site, but also has a specific dissatisfaction with the way something was handled and trying to get something to change. I think my reading was and is born out by the larger context of actions that user had taken, and the string of other objections they've raised toward our community norms.

It's fine that they asked trying to figure things out and hopefully they got the answer they needed -- but I don't think the question serves a useful purpose for future readers and I don't agree with the general premise all his hypothesis were built on (see my answer for specifics).

Theodore A. Jones

@AJHenderson Well let's see. There are fourteen apostles and one of them is God manifested in flesh. My self of course. And one other of recent note with whom I have never had any contact. I'll see if I can find that site and that persons post and send you its location.

Caleb

@TheodoreA.Jones What in the world? For the benefit of those of us trying to figure out what you're talking about and what you mean here, can I ask you to take a step back from the sarcasm? This message comes of as completely non-constructive blatant ridicule of something (I can't figure out what or who) or simply crazy. I will try to presume you mean neither of those, but right now I don't have a third angle to take. Can you give us some plain English statements without the overtones?

I think the question was about what group you identify with or who else you've found that holds the same beliefs you do. Was that the question? Besides whatever else @AJHenderson might have been asking, I'm interested in hearing a straight answer to that question myself.

Caleb

12:31

@TheodoreA.Jones Also could you clarify your use of punctuation? Who exactly makes up the 14? Did you include yourself in that list along with Jesus and the 12 disciples? A literal reading of your punctuation has you claiming to be God incarnate. Perhaps you want to clarify what you meant for us.

Theodore A. Jones

@AJHenderson Mr. Henderson. I was just highly rudely interrupted by an obnoxious upstart. Had a similar historical incident of interrupting my work happen in my younger days. The fellow who did that wound up spending a mouth in bed. If what you've requested of me is authentic suggest you make contact with me by emai. [email protected].

Wikis

@Caleb OK, well I'm not convinced but I appreciate your reply. Thanks.

Caleb

@Wikis I could be wrong, just explaining how I see it and suggesting a few ways I suspect other people could be seeing it.

Theodore A. Jones

@Caleb The fourteen are the twelve. The Lord is also stated by scripture to one of that group and Paul. I think 12+2 would be fourteen to a rational mind at least.

Wikis

@Caleb And I appreciate that, thank you.

wax eagle

12:54

@TheodoreA.Jones right, your grammar made it sound like you counted yourself among the 14

Theodore A. Jones

@Caleb There is no contemporary religious group that I am aware of that would not disagree with my proposal. Regarding the the Lord did say that there are only a very few that ever actually find out what the gate is that he has perfected for the individual to get into God's kingdom. The word few does not indicate that that group, if it is one, is other than a very small number. Since you are taking exception with his stated opinion by my estimation, allow me to also

Caleb

@TheodoreA.Jones Ok so that's a third option that I didn't see in your message at first. The implication that I am not rational isn't greatly appreciated, I was doing my best to give you a chance to explain where I'd gone wrong in interpreting you. Next time I suggest breaking separate topics up into separate chat messages. It sounded like you started a list then kept adding items to it. N + 1 + 1 + 1. There was no indication that you switched to a different topic, hence my confusion.

wax eagle

@TheodoreA.Jones please be aware that we take threats very seriously here.

Caleb

@TheodoreA.Jones So you are all alone? You estimate that a "few" includes yourself and maybe some other guy you saw write something on the internet a while back? Any others at all?

@TheodoreA.Jones Also, how am I taking exception with Jesus stated opinion? I missed something.

Theodore A. Jones

remind you that his Father, unlike, me has the intention of a permanent resolvement for those who are unlike minded with His only begotten son.

Caleb

13:07

@TheodoreA.Jones True. He aslo has the intention (and put action to the intention) of MAKING for himself a people who do have the mind of Christ. Hence why when Paul writes to various churches he specifically identifies the Christian believers as being different because (through regeneration and the Holy Spirit) have given the mind of Christ and a process started which will end with being fully resembling him.

Theodore A. Jones

@Caleb I can't affirm that there are no other's, at this time, who have been taught what I also know. But if that is the factoid, what of it?

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones if you know of no others with your view, can I ask how you resolve all the passages about fellowship of believers and meeting together? Do you believe that the church has died off entirely and if so, why do you feel that God would allow his church to die off? Is he not capable of keeping at least some small fellowship together?

I would just challenge that any other issues or interpretations aside, I'd encourage you to take a solid look at scriptures and see if they seem to indicate that God would allow his church to die off to the level you seem to believe. If not, then I would challenge why you can't find anyone else with your belief and encourage you to look and see if you can find anyone

I'm willing to consider that I could have it wrong, I am after all human and prone to error, however I would be highly suspicious of anything that only I seemed to know

you may be right, but if so, I'd think someone else out there should have the same understanding of truth

so please don't take my arguments to mean that I think you are wrong and I am right, it just doesn't seem to me that what you are saying jives with either scriptures or what scriptures says about the future of Christ's Church

@TheodoreA.Jones and I would also challenge you to demonstrate, with scripture, that any of the apostles had your view of law referring to something different than the greatest commandments as laid out by Jesus himself

those are currently the main problems I see with the argument you have presented

alas, I have to go to work though, so I will have to check back in later

Theodore A. Jones

13:29

@AJHenderson While Jesus was on this earth did he not indicate that in the future his arch enemy would sow bad seed? Not seeds, but a bad seed, relative to his warning of a pinch of a certain kind of existent leaven that has the potential to destroy the whole lump. The record of Gal. is the evidence that his teaching did transpire.

Caleb

13:51

@TheodoreA.Jones Sure, but did he not also indicate that the bad seed was sown in amongst a field that also had good seed? And that the tares should be let to grow up alongside the good crop lest the good crop be pulled up by accident? And did he not indicate that they would be sorted out at harvest?

Theodore A. Jones

There is only one identifier in Gal. that is a descriptive of what the seed/leaven is and is stated in Gal. 5:9-11. "In that case the OFFENSE of the cross has been abolished." and indeed it was. Your in concert wide gated stated opinion is a conjecture that is exactly a paradigm of that apostles warning.

@Caleb No. The chaff's separation is an event prior to the harvest. I am an elected chaff separator and that factoid is not of my own choice. At judgement no one will present any defense against God saying that he is unjust.

AJ Henderson

14:10

@TheodoreA.Jones are you claiming that you are to separate wheat from chaff (thus make judgement)? Separating wheat from chaff requires making a judgement of which someone is.

remember that this passage referred to people's spiritual development.

I am pretty close to writing you off as simply trolling though since you seem resistant to present a Biblical justification for your re-definition of law away from Jesus' own definition of the greatest commandments

you like making arguments on side points, but avoid the core issue

why are you trying to distract from this critical point?

and why are you so unwilling to give a firm answer that is based in scripture

Theodore A. Jones

14:29

@AJHenderson Isa. 2:3 "for out of Zion shall go forth the law" Isa. 51:4 "For a law shall proceed from Me. Acts 7:53, Gal. 3:19, Rom. 2:13, Rom. 5:20, Heb.7:12, Ps. 119

wax eagle

@TheodoreA.Jones quoting scripture does not interpret it. Especially when you pull things out of context like that. You must show that the context of a verse matches your use.

as AJ pointed out yesterday, I can pull any verse or phrase out of context and make it say anything.

Theodore A. Jones

The Sinai code was not read to the people at Jerusalem nor was it put into effect by angels nor was any mediator involved.

wax eagle

You obviously are well versed in the scriptures, and have thought a lot. What we're asking you to do is explain how you arrived at your conclusions. You can use scripture to support it, but you're own words are required here.

Theodore A. Jones

14:47

@AJHenderson No. I am just informing, as a royal priest, of what you are and why you have placed yourselves in that clique and that you have the opportunity to leave it if you have the faith to do so. For God is a God of mercy. You have been duped, but the issue of correct judgement is your responsibility in regard to what has been written.

Theodore A. Jones

15:05

Truthfully, as a man, I am not much empathic to your situation. You have the same scriptures as I do and should have believed them and not placed ecclesiastical assumptions over and above the scriptures. "Watch out for false teachers" was not an idle comment. You should have taken Him very very seriously, but didn't. The doorway for an escape may still be open, but as he warned you, the master of the house will indeed shut that door and there is absolutely no possibility of

wax eagle

> Plans fail for lack of counsel,
> but with many advisers they succeed.

Theodore A. Jones

an escape for anyone. Only eight escaped the flood based one man's faith to obey God and build the ark. Only one man was granted the grace to escape the destruction of those wicked cities. Your escape is predicated upon the faith to obey one command that is also a law. Refuse to do so and you perish. "For God is not slack concerning his promise. The guilty shall not go unpunished."

wax eagle

@TheodoreA.Jones Still not sure I've understood what that one command is.

Caleb

15:25

@TheodoreA.Jones How do you interpret God's promises to Abraham, specifically about an offspring / people that were to be numerous?

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones so are you referring to Jesus as the law then?

@TheodoreA.Jones ok, that's a fair statement, I would point out that is more the role of the sower than the action of separating wheat from chaff in the context of that parable, but I understand your meaning in what you said about it now.

I do think it still doesn't address the fact that the parable states that there is multiple good among the bad, and since it is dealing with people, it does bring up the question of where are the others that have your insight

Affable Geek

@TheodoreA.Jones I have to say, you really have a Jonah-like air about you. You seem to glory in the coming destruction of those who oppose you, give only the slimmest of explanations of your authority to speak on God's behalf, and give no credence to God's other attributes such as His mercy and love.

3

Likewise, the "beware false teachers" advice comes from John who predicated it with "Little Children, love one another." Both should be kept in mind.

I trust things will go bettr for you than for Jonah.

Theodore A. Jones

16:13

@AJHenderson No. The Word REPENT, the Lord's command given through the apostles, is both and command and a law. Heb. 4:12

@AJHenderson only one pinch of that leaven is need to destroy the WHOLE lump.

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones you aren't familiar with farming are you?

when there is wheat and chaff, you separate out the wheat, you don't throw it out because there is some chaff

I'm referring to the parable of the sower where seed falls on good ground and there is wheat and chaff and they get separated out, but it doesn't seem to indicate that it is mostly (99.99999%) chaff

wax eagle

@AJHenderson else you'd throw all of the wheat ever away

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones on what do you base the law being the word repent?

Hebrews 4:12 doesn't say anything about it being "repent"

Theodore A. Jones

"This is for you, your children, and your children's children" and approx 90 years post of that The Revelation was dictated to John. Relative to the two trees, one good the other bad. Homosexuals, pedophiles, lesbens etc cannot be in the make up of the hierarchy of the good tree, i.e. His church. But at present they are unilaterally, as fruit, in the make up of all contemporary churches' hierarchy. The good tree cannot produce this type of fruit.

AJ Henderson

16:28

@TheodoreA.Jones no they aren't

if you want to make the argument that many churches are unhealthy today, you will get my full agreement

but to say that they are all like that is naive and false

there are no practicing homosexuals or pedophiles in my church leadership. In fact, there are none that we know of in my church. If there were, we would minister to them and if they claimed to be following Christ in their sin, we would follow Biblical procedures and remove them from the fellowship (hoping they would be convicted of their sin, repent and return)

wax eagle

can we not lump homosexuality and pedophilia? While they are both considered sexual sins, they aren't at all the same.

2

AJ Henderson

we in fact don't allow anyone who is willingly sinning in any way to be in church leadership. Obviously our church leaders are people and thus do sin, but if a pattern of sin is determined, they step down

@waxeagle I would rather say that we should lump all sin in with them

not just them

no practiced sin is better or worse than another

a Pastor that lies habitually without repentance is just as unfit to lead a church as a practicing homosexual.

2

which isn't to say that someone with homosexual tendencies can't be a leader as long as they don't pursue sinful relations

ok, and my SVN refresh has finished, so back to work now

wax eagle

@AJHenderson Fair enough, though tbh our churches are full of sinners. Just hopefully not unrepentant ones

AJ Henderson

16:44

@waxeagle yeah, agreed, nobody other than Jesus is sinless or even capable of not continuing to sin currently

but repentance and a desire to not sin are the key factor

btw, sorry if I drop in very sporadically, checking SE is my build/svn/downtime activity while waiting on my computer doing work

so I tend to be in and out a bunch

wax eagle

that's fine, I should really go do some work myself

Caleb

17:10

@AJHenderson In all seriousness, why Subversion? Even if your team uses it you know you can use better tools yourself and still interface with them right?

AJ Henderson

17:21

@Caleb I was pulling a new copy from the main repository. We had a power outage on friday and it fried my local copy because I had been in the middle of an update and cleanup failed to fix it

though personally, I like SVN

Caleb

@AJHenderson Yuck, that's always ugly. But that is the sort of problem that a better local toolkit (git svn for example) would smooth over. Working copy cleanup takes on a whole different meaning when stop having one wrench and start having a whole toolbox to work from.

@AJHenderson Over CVS? Sure ;)

Affable Geek

It seems to be the day for version control issues. I'm cursing up a storm getting git to run on an old Windows Server 2008 box. I truly despise windows. It makes me understand why being "defenestrated" was such a bad thing.

Anyone know why a simple git clone would result in "unable to access 'C:\Program Files (x86)\Git\"/.config/git/config: Invalid argument?

wax eagle

once we got past the initial headache of installing TFS we haven't really looked back. But our version control needs are miniscule (basically just check in/check out stuff and some basic history stuff)

Affable Geek

Ah so as long as I stay in the Microsoft way...

Sadly, no can-do here. Actually, I'm trying to get Jenkins to pull from Github and run a script that it just pulled. Simple enough, if it weren't for all the stupid path issues.

(And its metaphorical cursing at this point, not real sailor talk... yet)

Caleb

@AffableGeek Version mismatch in your local toolchain? Sounds like something got half upgraded.

Affable Geek

17:31

I did try to install github's shell at one point. Uninstalling that might be fruitful.

Thank you!

Caleb

@AffableGeek Never used that, I avoid Windows as much as possible. And I'm mostly if not entirely successful.

Affable Geek

You lucky boy

Caleb

{heading home}

TRiG

@AffableGeek You have some mis-matched quotation marks there, which may or may not be relevant.

AJ Henderson

17:57

@Caleb git is nice for distributed stuff, but is much more of a pain for centralized management

it largely depends on how your development process is setup though

I also know SVN extremely well since I wrote an adapter to allow SVN and Visual FoxPro to get along back at an old job, so I'll admit I'm a bit partial

I'd prefer perforce, but that isn't free

and I prefer SVN to TFS any day

TFS is a pain

and highly limiting

I was stuck using that at my old job

@Caleb so I shouldn't point out that I live in Windows and work on .Net code huh?

;)

wax eagle

@AJHenderson you're not alone :)

though in that case why aren't you using TFS?

AJ Henderson

@waxeagle because TFS is awful

given the choice between CVS and TFS, I'd choose CVS

wax eagle

not really

AJ Henderson

you can't do any advanced management in TFS

you have far FAR more flexibility in SVN

or even CVS

I've worked with both

I've even been the guy in charge of running both

TFS works well for extremely simple needs

but is barely a step up from SourceSafe

fredsbend

@TheodoreA.Jones Heaven's a lonely place where you get to say snide things to about a dozen people for eternity. That's what's of it.

Also, you have been filling this room with nonsense for over a day now and no one here still has any clue what your "law" is. No one here knows what you think is required for entrance into the Kingdom.

wax eagle

18:08

gotcha simple definitely fits our needs :)

AJ Henderson

yeah, TFS is great if you just need easy setup and basic operation

SVN is complex and you need someone that understands it to run it well

but if you need powerful features, TFS isn't going to cut it

fredsbend

You're doing a pretty bad job disciplining, preaching, etc. But I have a sneaky feeling that you are just going to say it is because we are ignorant and not listening to you.

AJ Henderson

@fredsbend well that's not entirely true, I've got a vague sense that he thinks that the crucifixion was simply a murder and that we have to repent of killing Jesus rather than look to his sacrifice for salvation and that his law has something to do with that

but it's not a very precise idea and still have no idea how he bases it in scripture other than random verses that he has redefined words in

@waxeagle we're a ticket oriented shot that does revision management across codebases

so SVN's revision system matches up nicely

and patches work well for offline development

we don't tend to do enough long term independent development for something like GIT to be beneficial for the added complexity

wax eagle

yeah we're in continuous development on a single ap :)

no real versions to it, just regular (usually several daily) updates

fredsbend

@AffableGeek Though I wouldn't mind a big fish sneaking in here and ...

wax eagle

18:16

@fredsbend hey now, gotta be nice, even to the nuts :)

TRiG

@fredsbend Preaching isn't his aim. If he preached to you, he might actually convert someone, and that would be terrible. Once he'd converted you, he'd no longer be able to look down his nose at you and gloat over your terrible fate. Of course, he's been commanded to preach, so he needs to make some sort of show of doing so, but he makes sure it's ineffectual. Effectual preaching would be dangerous: dangerous to his sense of smug superiority.

;)

Disclaimer: These are ideas I picked up mainly from discussions about Tim LaHaye at Slacktivist. But they do seem to apply here too.

AJ Henderson

@TRiG I don't know, maybe, but it also could just be that he's completely convinced himself to the point he doesn't see it doesn't make sense and that it is circular reasoning

in which case, he may think he is making perfect sense, but the fact is it doesn't make sense

I mean, how do you make a convincing argument that when I say this book is red, I actually meant it was a blue hipopotomus?

TRiG

@AJHenderson Well, that would apply to pretty much everything else said on this site, so ....

AJ Henderson

@TRiG there's a fundamental difference in taking a book at face value vs redefining what the book says without any actual support to justify such an interpretation

fredsbend

@TRiG Sounds like a possibility.

@AJHenderson As does this.

But making sense and convincing any of us of anything ... Nope. Didn't happen.

TRiG

18:21

@AJHenderson Nah. I really don't think so. The entirety of Christian doctrine is castles in the air.

@AJHenderson I think the fundamental difference is that he's more arrogant than most.

AJ Henderson

@TRiG if you make the fundamental claim that the Bible is false, sure, but if both parties are claiming that the Bible is fundamentally true, then you have to have a discourse based on that. He claims that the Bible is true, but then proceeds to assign new and unique definitions to words to fit his definition despite them being clearly used in other ways elsewhere in the same book

TRiG

@AJHenderson I make the fundamental claim that the Bible is a self-contradictory mess, actually.

AJ Henderson

you may reject the starting point of the argument, but that doesn't mean that most general Christian theologies fit the assumption that the Bible is true, where as his is not supported by that same evidence

@TRiG I've gone looking for contradictions and have yet to find one

that can't be explained

Jack Douglas

@TRiG You love us really, why else do you hang out with us ;)

AJ Henderson

18:37

@TRiG that said, a lot of people try to read more in to it than they should. For example, the Bible isn't a history book and wasn't intended to be. It frequently uses descriptive language which may or may not refer to exact descriptions of events and it is certainly not a complete history even when taken completely literally since that isn't it's focus.

though personally, the only situation I have a bit of trouble with in the pure literal sense is that the time table for the flood is difficult since it would seem to have required a much flatter earth than we have now.

and that seems to put it to far back in the geological record

Theodore A. Jones

18:57

@AJHenderson :11059875 And the name your church goes by is? I think a little net search will probably compromise your assumption. Local assemblies are branches of a tree that is either good or bad. The issue of His illustration is the trees and what identifies them. A few years back a pastor of a Presbyterian church in a town where I lived got wacked by AIDS. Does this not identify the tree a bad tree? You are looking at the branches thinking that you have seen the tree.

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones I am in a non-denominational church

we are part of the Acts 29 network

and no church organization is going to be perfect, bad will happen, the question is how does the organization respond to it. We're human mistakes happen

I'll admit, we had a pastor that had to step down because he was living in sin, but he was asked to leave when it came to light and the community grew through it. There are always wolves in sheep's clothing

Anonymous

@AJHenderson I think only the shepherd can identify who's the wolf and who's the sheep, not the fellow sheep. ;)

Theodore A. Jones

@TRiG Only if the judgement call is made by observing the contemporary evidence.

wax eagle

@TheodoreA.Jones implying that a pastor of a church contracting aids with poisoning a church is not just bad theology it's bad science.

dangit I can't make the grammar on that work well enough. Suffice to say, there are plenty of non-immoral ways of contracting aids that using that alone as your justification for saying he has poisoned his church is insane.

Anonymous

@waxeagle I don't know. If a hospital fails to sterilize needles for patients, then that may be called "negligence", and it can be prosecuted.

wax eagle

19:08

@Anonymous not the moral fault of the patient though, which is the implication here.

Anonymous

@waxeagle But it's the institution's fault. Another scenario is drug abuse and sharing needles among people with HIV.

Does Elisha speak?

-4

Q: At what point will we have to close Christianity.StackExchange.com for being too localized?

Fellow brothers and sisters in Christ, I have a deep concern in the future of our beloved Christianity.SE. As many of you know, Christianity has been losing steadily to reason and logic, and even to some degree those who identify with it: we call them apostates, but they refer the term Atheists. ...

discussion

Theodore A. Jones

@waxeagle Incorrect. It is the "God gave them over" part of the equation for exchanging the truth of God for the lie.

@waxeagle His contraction of AIDS was the result of sexual relations with a male. And you have the teaching of His illustration backwards.

AJ Henderson

@Anonymous occasionally they show themselves when cornered, but in some cases you are correct

Anonymous

@waxeagle Since there is no cure for HIV/AIDS, any intention to spread the disease or virus - knowing that one has it or wants to do ill will toward others - is immoral and illegal. This includes sharing needles, using unsanitized hospital equipment, having heterosexual sex, having homosexual sex, or any activity that involves the sharing of infected blood or bodily fluids.

AJ Henderson

19:25

@TheodoreA.Jones if it was that he was having sexual relations with a guy, then why didn't you mention that instead of saying he contracted aids as your evidence? I'd agree that if he was doing that, he should step down or be removed from leadership.

Anonymous

►

AJ Henderson

and if he is unrepentant then he should be removed from the church

but contracting aids can occur for reasons of living in a fallen world that don't involve sin

even if it wasn't in that case

Anonymous

@AJHenderson I love the last verse of the music video.

wax eagle

@Anonymous I agree with that in general, yes. Again, that's not related to the morality of contracting it though.

AJ Henderson

@Anonymous can't watch videos at the moment, so you'll have to spell it out for me

Anonymous

19:28

@AJHenderson Well, I just wanted to show you the last verse, "Back then no one hurrahed Gregor Mendel but his God."

@waxeagle So, contracting the disease is sinful?

wax eagle

@Anonymous no.

the actions that lead you to contract it might be, but not the contraction itself

Theodore A. Jones

@AJHenderson And what is the noted and verifiable incidents of sexual perversion related to personages that make up the authoritative, administrative or teaching components of this group? Regarding that it only takes one example to identify that the tree is either good or bad.

Anonymous

@AJHenderson The verse is true. Gregor Mendel wasn't known for his experiment during his lifetime, until sometime after his death when people compared and examined his results, and found his observed proportions were remarkably accurate. I guess you can say that Mendel was working in God's plan after all, without the knowledge of his peers. ;)

@waxeagle ' which goes back to what I said, right?

@AJHenderson Maybe the lesson is to say that sometimes we don't know who's the sheep and who's the wolf until God will reveal it in the future. :D

Theodore A. Jones

19:44

@AJHenderson I am not finished with you yet.

@AJHenderson Weather he stepped down or was removed is irreleavant.

@Anonymous Aha, they are discoverable.

@JackDouglas Well Jackson is there a bit of a matter that needs wood shed'in?

AJ Henderson

20:03

@TheodoreA.Jones the church isn't a tree, teaching is a tree. Bad teaching will never produce good fruit. Good teaching will still have fallen people around it though

because we live in a fallen world

@TheodoreA.Jones saying that a human body is immune to having someone in power that is or becomes corrupt is foolish and inaccurate

David, a friend of God had an affair with a woman and murdered her husband

it is possible that the preacher may have been legit when he started but went astray. What is critical is that they are removed when their fruit shows them to no longer be serving rightly

it isn't possible for us to know the hearts of others

so sometimes we will put people in authority that shouldn't be, but we remove them when they show themselves

which will happen when there fruit is seen

I can't speak for the church with the pastor that got aids from sexual relations with a guy, but in our case, the guy's fruit was what lead to the discovery of the issue and his being asked to step down and his being asked to leave the church.

Caleb

@AJHenderson More of a pain? Even used with centralized management I find it much more painless. The distributed aspect is just one aspect and having the tools intelligent enough to make that work tend to make centralized stuff a walk in the park.

@AJHenderson That helps. It's not a bad system, but after I got used to branching works on git I find it painful to go back to subversion (which I know fairly well).

@AJHenderson Not if you want help or anything but sympathy from me ;)

@AJHenderson This is where I missed the boat for a while. I told myself my projects were too small or too easy to be worth the "upgrade". It turns out that the "added complexity" is a myth and my simplest needs are better met. I use the advanced features like better branching controls less for "long term independent development" than I do for keeping track ten minutes worth of edits trying to track down a bug.

AJ Henderson

20:21

@Caleb I suppose I should clarify, I use Perforce's merge tools

I'm not a fan of TortiseSVN's merge tools

@Caleb I actually have tried on a couple occasions to use a local GIT repository

I found my productivity decreased sharply every time I've tried to make use of it

not that it can't work well in some environments, but the way my current environment is structured, it isn't

Theodore A. Jones

@AJHenderson AJ! We ain't ah go'in down no rabbit's trail in my class! Understand? Didn't I ask you a question and isn't it true that you have not responded. Isn't the Great Commission stated like this? "Go into all the world teaching them to obey whatsoever I have commanded? "Give to the one who asks you" Isn't this a command of his? HMMMMMMMMMMM. There is not a single so called "Christian" church on the face of this earth today that even has a "Jesus Commandment" class. But this is the

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones I'm sorry, if I didn't answer I must have missed it or not understood what you were asking

Theodore A. Jones

only way to made his disciple. So whose disciples do you think they are that come rolling out of these religious factories?

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones I'm not sure why you think that there isn't any church or theological program that touches on the great commission

I'm honestly not sure what your point or the question in that was

but you still haven't provided any evidence to support your redefinition of law or your claim that there can't possibly be anyone bad ever in a genuine church

Theodore A. Jones

see twenty.

Called enough of them up and asked at random and asked, "Say do you have a class on Jesus' commandments that I may attend"? They answered No. 100% failure rate.

wax eagle

20:42

@TheodoreA.Jones sure, because most churches sunday schools run in cycles, focusing on various topics throughout scripture. I don't see why that would be a problem

Theodore A. Jones

W. Edwards Demming says with a stat like that and compared to the standard the whole production system is wrong, theory, process everything. Now you see eagle?

wax eagle

@TheodoreA.Jones not really, no

AJ Henderson

@TheodoreA.Jones it could also be that when you say Jesus Commandments it isn't at all clear what you are talking about

if you subcategorize them in to terms that people are familiar with, the answer will become yes

to pretty much all of them

google.com/…

@TheodoreA.Jones - it seems to me like you are looking for reasons to villainize the church as a whole based on the actions of a few that the Church as a whole would agree are not acting rightly instead of looking to see if they have any agreement with you. It seems like your goal is to prove that others are at fault by any means necessary rather than truly investigating what problems do or don't exist.

Theodore A. Jones

21:06

Every church that has been built upon the doctrine of substitutionary atonement or any variant of this concept unilaterally has a person or personages in their hierarchies that practice a sexual perversion of some sort. There are no exceptions. And it is a measurable constant of both RCCism and Protestantism which are both built on the doctrine of substitutionary atonement.

@AJHenderson you are probably right since no one ever reads them or articulates any of then in any contemporary church.

AJ Henderson

21:48

@TheodoreA.Jones which verses in particular do you think are not preached in contemporary churches?

my church does verse by verse studies of new testament books in-between the occasional topical sermon. We're working through Luke now and have spent 3 months just getting to Luke 4

we've previously done 9 months in Romans within the last 5 years

I've read the Bible, in it's entirety, twice cover to cover

you can't support your accusation that anything found in the Bible is not taught in any contemporary churches

it is simply unfounded and blatantly untrue

as I said, you are trying to invent a problem and are demonstrating time and again you have no interest in seeing reality because it might conflict with your view that you personally hold all the answers to life

and that everyone else is wrong

@TheodoreA.Jones why the focus on sexual perversion? Do you think that it is somehow worse than other sins and corruptions?

the wages of sin is death, there isn't a cheat sheet for which ones are kind of ok

they are all equally as worthy of death

and no leader or member of any group ever other than Christ himself has been perfect

@TheodoreA.Jones how do you resolve verses like Isaiah 53:4-6 4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

if Christ's sacrifice was not a substitute for our death, then why did the Lord lay on him the iniquity of us all?

what was the point of Christ's death if not to lay down his life. He had the power to prevent his death unless it was God's will.

Transcript for