Charcoal HQ

12:00 PM

Definition of spelt

: an ancient wheat (Triticum spelta synonym T. aestivum spelta) with long spikelets containing two light red flattened grains; also : the grain of spelt ◆Both the plant and the grain are also called farro.

ArtOfCode

@Wrzlprmft tense, participle, might as well be the same thing :) spelt does happen in British English, but it's not the original or technically correct form.

Rory Alsop

@M.A.R. nah, we say the same up here in Scotland :-)

M.A.R.

chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/69060/… -- I'm tempted to report this

Glorfindel

@M.A.R. flagged as off-topic (and downvoted for lack of research)

M.A.R.

Why do you always edit replies to me thrice? -__-

Glorfindel

12:03 PM

@M.A.R. sorry, I won't do it again, if I remember.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: 7 month old cat throws up wet food by littlemisskitty on pets.SE

M.A.R.

Nah it's OK

DavidPostill

@RoryAlsop Och aye the noo

SmokeDetector

fp- by Glorfindel

M.A.R.

I don't have a cat around to jump in horror

SmokeDetector

12:05 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, pattern-matching website in body: Factors That Influence Nose Surgery Cost by rhinoplasty india on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

Yvette Colomb

@SmokeDetector k

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title: How to help a postgraduate student to write a book? by Anonymous Teacher on academia.SE (@Wrzlprmft)

tpu- by ArtOfCode

J F

spam or rude?

Cerbrus

Hm, why are there 21 failures with autoflagging, today? Usually, it's 3 at most

Glorfindel

Doesn't matter

Cerbrus

12:16 PM

spam.

Glorfindel

@Cerbrus some users signed up who didn't have account on major spam magnets

Cerbrus

Shouldn't that not register as a failure, but select a different user instead, then?

ArtOfCode

@Cerbrus it does select a different user, but it also creates a flag log

J F

IMO it should only register a failure if it was unable to cast the required number of flags.

Cerbrus

So, those 21 failures are probably all accompanied by an "success"?

ArtOfCode

12:18 PM

@Cerbrus they are

doing some investigation into those users now, I'm just going to disable autoflagging on inapplicable sites for them

Cerbrus

"Failure" seems so harsh for something that's basically a incorrectly selected (/configured) user

Magisch

@Cerbrus Failure to flag, moving to the next user

Lord knows we can't track declines yet, so I dont think there's any ambiguity.

Cerbrus

I understand that, but the system shouldn't have tried to cast that flag, in the first place

And I guess that comes down to the user's config

Magisch

@Cerbrus How's the system supposed to know the user doesn't have an account on that website?

Unless the user correctly specifies, the system only knows when the flag api call fails.

Cerbrus

@Magisch I bet there's a way to check that with SE's api

Magisch

12:22 PM

Without adding yet another api call in front for checking?

J F

/me/associated

Cerbrus

api.stackexchange.com/docs/…

Ninja'd by @JF

J F

Better: only user_id, site_url and site_name (filter=!-rVxSz-s)

Cerbrus

Although it only returns 30 sites for me

J F

@Cerbrus That’s probably the default page size

Cerbrus

12:25 PM

looks like it. has_more: true

PageSize max = 100

Wrzlprmft

@SmokeDetector This guy really baffles me. I am really pondering to ask a question on Community Building about him and invite him to answer it.

Mithrandir

@Wrzlprmft What kinda question?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body, repeated URL at end of long post: Esto mejora la estructura testo ultra by Alleary60 on workplace.SE

Glorfindel

@Mithrandir the most FAQ on the SE network, by now (the postgraduate student writing a book)

SmokeDetector

tpu- by Glorfindel

J F

12:29 PM

Another way to determing if the user’s got an account: api.stackexchange.com/2.2/…. Returns [{}] if the user has an account, [] otherwise.

Cerbrus

@JF That's an api call per site

Ideally, while configuring the filters, only sites the user has an account on are available, I think...

Then it'd be up to the user to select additional sites when he creates an account, though.

Wrzlprmft

@Mithrandir Why would anybody do this? It’s obviously ineffective. It’s not trolling (and if it is, it’s again very ineffective). It’s not advertisement. At least initially, that guy seemed to be honestly interested in getting an answer, but he blatantly ignores the advice given to him.

Cerbrus

@JF: This'd be an issue for the metasmoke repo, right?

Mithrandir

I think it is trolling...

J F

@Cerbrus Yes

ArtOfCode

12:33 PM

There, conditions edited

Cerbrus

@ArtOfCode: I'm thinking of submitting an issue to add some logic to those conditions, so you can only select sites you have an account on... The /users/{ids}/associated api exposes the required data, so it shouldn't be too problematic to filter the dropdown... What do you think?

ArtOfCode

sure

Glorfindel

@Wrzlprmft you probably already knew he asked this question on Meta SE. This morning, he replied to my comment on one of his questions, asking me to migrate the questionto the Open Science proposal on Area 51.

But honestly, I don't know what to do with him other that to flag his posts into oblivion.

Wrzlprmft

@Glorfindel Exactly, which is why I assume that he once was genuinely interested in an answer. I also saw the comment you are referring to (he even acknowledged the response on the Meta post).

@Glorfindel I do not expect a cure either (he is obviously immune to guidance); I am just curious what his motivations are.

Glorfindel

I think they were genuine to begin with, but now that we've shown him the door, he has evolved into trolling.

Mithrandir

12:41 PM

@Glorfindel He did that on Lit too...

Wrzlprmft

@Glorfindel … and he cannot even do that properly.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, pattern-matching website in body: immaculate skin by meenugirlss on apple.SE

tpu- by Glorfindel

Loong

@Wrzlprmft Did you see the comment on the blog? stackoverflow.blog/2015/08/…

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching website in body: testo ultra Conclusión by Onves1944 on apple.SE

Glorfindel

@Loong good catch.

SmokeDetector

12:42 PM

tpu- by J F

Cerbrus

Issue submitted: Filter available sites in flagging conditions, based on user's accounts.

Not sure if it's a bug or a FR

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, repeated URL at end of long post: Malexpro La concentración by aloshajenas154 on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

tpu- by Cerbrus

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title: myhealthpeak.com/sonix-garcinia-review/ by manalmanal on apple.SE

tpu- by Cerbrus

Cerbrus

Keyboard shortcuts <3

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Is there a way to output static files from a Ruby on Rails build? by Felipe Jordão A.P Mattosinho on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

fp- by J F

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, repeated URL at end of long post: offersreviews.org/malexpro/ by Vnzu Langford on apple.SE

tpu- by J F

J F

1:00 PM

I think I’ve figured out why the AIM userscript doesn’t work for new messages. It turns out that returning a function from a function doesn’t call it — you have to do that yourself.

Glorfindel

@JF ah, sounds good.

And just like something that happens when developing JS.

Cerbrus

> "returning a function from a function doesn’t call it"

Yeap, that's be a correct assumption.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, blacklisted website in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: sin terminar la cumbre. Usted puede considerar un foreplay by lagutocog24 on workplace.SE

tpu- by J F

Shadow Wizard

@Art why did you delete your comment here? Wasn't it correct?

ArtOfCode

@ShadowWizard apparently not

SmokeDetector

1:05 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeating characters in answer: Difference between ServerRoot, DocumentRoot, and Directory by iksde-hitler on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

tpu- by J F

Byte Commander

That username... >.<

Shadow Wizard

nuked

Magisch

JS is arcane to me

I'm used to good old at least semi procedural programming

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch why? No variable types?

Magisch

@ShadowWizard bunch of things

I'm the kind of guy to use option explicit in ms access because I'm viscerally disgusted by ambigous typing

Shadow Wizard

1:14 PM

@Magisch hehe, one my very first day as programmer I've learned about Option Explicit in classic ASP. Loved it.

ArtOfCode

Dynamic typing can be quite useful - you get to make things shorter by reassigning to a variable across multiple types. Python and JS are good at that.

Magisch

@ShadowWizard And because I'm even more viscerally disgusted by stuff like Dim myVar and then Set myVar = SomeBullshitObjectReturningProprietaryFunctionIHaveToLookUpInAReferenceWritten10‌YearsAgo()

I like to categorically remove the error and confusion source that can come from errors caused by improperly dynamic typing.

Cerbrus

var typeLess = eval('(function(){return '+(213445523.43654 + '').split('3').map(e => e * e).join('*') + '/6; })()')

Muahaha

Not the best example, but okay

typeof NaN === 'number' is just as fun :P

SmokeDetector

naa- by Yvette on Is there a way to output static files from a Ruby on Rails build? [MS]

Magisch

Dim vatdisplayoutput as String
vatdisplayoutput = CStr( calcvat_exact_dec(CDbl(Forms![Offer]![sumprice]),2))

@Cerbrus

Shadow Wizard

1:23 PM

@Magisch fun!

J F

@Magisch indent with 4 spaces

Magisch

that works in chat

TIL

Cerbrus

@Magisch What language is that even?

Magisch

@Cerbrus vba

Shadow Wizard

eww

Magisch

1:26 PM

englisch translated version of something from our main app

calcvat_exact_dec is actually berechneMWST_mit_Stellen_FormatI(Summe as Double, Stellen as Integer)

ArtOfCode

new Array(16).join("a" - 1) + " Batman!"

Cerbrus

@ArtOfCode Array(16).join([]/[]).replace(/N(N)/g, ' $1').slice(0, 44) + ' Bat' + ([]/[]) + '!'

wat the man?

@YvetteColomb *-h

1:30 PM

Array(16).join([]/[]).replace(new RegExp((([]/[])+'')[0] + '(' + (([]/[])+'')[0] + ')', 'g'), ' $1').slice(0, 44) + ' Bat' + ([]/[]) + '!'

Oh it's getting batter and batter

Yvette Colomb

@Mithrandir I did contemplate removing it lol

instead of wth it's wtm

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer: Solr error while indexing using post.jar by CINDY ALLEN on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

ArtOfCode

@Cerbrus this does have too many sodium atoms, though

SmokeDetector

tpu- by J F

Yvette Colomb

@SmokeDetector k

Cerbrus

1:32 PM

I'm only looking to replace ' Bat'

ArtOfCode

@Cerbrus do some char code magic

Andy

Quick survey: How many people use Windows to develop when working on SmokeDetector?

ArtOfCode

@Andy half-raises hand

Ashish Ahuja

@Andy I don't exactly develop Smokey, but I have cloned it and can run it on my computer. I've tried that. I use Ubuntu and Mac OS X

Magisch

I made a local copy and failed to get it running twice

Does that count?

Cerbrus

1:35 PM

Oh man.... jsfuck.com returns a wall of text just for ' Bat

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Can I install windows 10 in windows 8 laptop using the same product key by Emilie on superuser.com

tpu- by J F

Ashish Ahuja

@Magisch which OS? It seemed to work the first time for me

Magisch

Windows 7 64 Bit

Ashish Ahuja

eh, I have not used Windows from months now.. don't know about that then..

Magisch

@AshishAhuja What're you on? Linux?

Linux isn't allowed in my company end of

Ashish Ahuja

1:38 PM

@Magisch yeah

Andy

@Magisch Yes, the reason I'm asking is because there is a module that fails to load in Smokey on Windows and I was trying to determine how big of a deal it was.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Postgres schema and data compare tool by Rafael Salgado on stackoverflow.com (@dorukayhan)

tpu- by Mithrandir

J F

@SmokeDetector [cv-pls] asking for a tool/off-site resource

Ashish Ahuja

@Andy is it regarding the username matches link filter you are working on?

Magisch

@Andy Haven't got the exact error codes written down but starting with ws.py it threw some error

Andy

1:40 PM

@AshishAhuja No

@AshishAhuja It is the sh module that gitmanager uses

ArtOfCode

@Cerb: String.fromCharCode(64^96, 66&66, 1+8**2+(96^64), parseInt("1" + "1" + "6", 10))

Ashish Ahuja

@Andy ah

Andy

ImportError: sh 1.12.9 is currently only supported on linux and osx. please install pbs 0.110 (http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pbs) for windows support.

Cerbrus

@ArtOfCode Oh beautiful

ArtOfCode

@Andy add pbs to requirements.txt?

Andy

1:42 PM

I haven't looked super closely, but the pbs module seems to have different syntax, so a straight replacement isn't going to work

I'll throw an issue on github and we can work around it there. It's not a show stopper for me

Cerbrus

Array(16).join(Math.sqrt(-1)).replace(new RegExp((-{}+'')[0] + '(' + (([]/[])+'')[0] + ')', 'g'), ' $1').slice(0, 44) + String.fromCharCode(64^96, 66&66, 1+8**2+(96^64), parseInt("1" + "1" + "6", 10)) + (''*{}) + '!'

ArtOfCode

@Cerbrus replace your empty strings with []+[]

Cerbrus

[] will do, even

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: Why should I insist on more in relation by notibork smith on drupal.SE

tpu- by ArtOfCode

Cerbrus

new Array(16).join(Math.sqrt(-1)).replace(new RegExp((-{}+[])[0] + '(' + (([]/[])+[])[0] + ')', 'g'), ' $1').slice(0, 44) + String.fromCharCode(64^96, 66&66, 1+8**2+(96^64), parseInt("1" + (-~[]<<4), 10)) + ([]*{}) + '!'

J F

1:48 PM

!!/alive

SmokeDetector

@JF Of course

Cerbrus

Note that last parseInt

SmokeDetector

Restart: API quota is 3456.

[ SmokeDetector ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body, blacklisted website in title, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body, pattern-matching website in title, repeated URL at end of long post: maxhealthtips.com/proshred-elite/ by zoylina789 on workplace.SE

tpu- by Glorfindel

Mithrandir

Eeek. Where's the MS link?

Glorfindel

@Mithrandir no room, too much reasons.

Though, if you want one: https://metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/posts/by-url?url=//workplace.stackexchange.‌com/questions/85519

Mithrandir

1:51 PM

I know, I did it myself already :) Thanks, though.

@SmokeDetector k

ArtOfCode

there's also /posts/latest

Magisch

Charcoal is fast approaching evolving into a multi-language full fledged product

o_O

Glorfindel

@Magisch why? It's English only :P

DavidPostill

@Glorfindel For some definition of English :)

Magisch

s/language/programming-language

enderland

2:15 PM

Man, we are getting hammered with spam on Workplace recently compared to years past...

Mithrandir

That's why the flag-to-deletion was lowered.

Magisch

@enderland we're here to make short work of that

quartata

It would be cool if Smokey reposted posts that were tpu'd but still needed flags

Checking Metasmoke is effort

J F

@quartata AIM dims the ones that are deleted.

Magisch

AIM kinda sorta does that by fading out reports that are already deleted

quartata

2:18 PM

@JF But then you have to go through the transcript and all that

DavidPostill

But it doesn't always work ...

Magisch

right, but almost no reports stick around for longer then 10 or so minutes

reposting would be some noise

quartata

I was thinking more on the scale of once an hour

I have occasionally seen things stick around that long let me check

DavidPostill

Someone should fix the bug(s) that means a page reload is required for accurate report feedback.

J F

@DavidPostill Working on it. Kinda hard when there’s not much spam.

Mithrandir

2:20 PM

Someone: Post spam for @JF :P

quartata

crickets

J F

*eats one* Tastes like chicken.

quartata

Smokey refuses to answer your prayers clearly

Mithrandir

*hits ball with bat*

quartata

!!/alive?

SmokeDetector

2:22 PM

@quartata Of course

Mithrandir

!!/lick

SmokeDetector

@Mithrandir licks ice cream cone

ArtOfCode

Question: should we consider posting announcements on other highly-spammed sites' metas? A number of mods seemed to think that would be the Right Thing to do a couple days ago. What do y'all think?

I'm thinking not the full thing we posted on Meta.SE, but a cut-down version like Software Engineering did.

"TL;DR: Spam on $SiteName is now being automatically flagged, details here, yell at us if you have questions"

Mithrandir

It wouldn't hurt, but I don't see why yes.

Andy

At this point, no. If you'd asked me a few days ago, I would have said yes, but with the post on MSE, the migration from MSO, the discussion in TL and number of votes the post has gotten, it has been seen by community members and mods.

Magisch

2:29 PM

@ArtOfCode Dont care, if the site mods see value in it go for it

Might be pointless. Ask the site mods if they still want it

enderland

@Andy A large percentage of site moderators don't read all the transcripts of TL nor MSE/MSO

Magisch

@Andy It barely got 470 views

Andy

The argument for moving it to MSE was so everyone would see it. It's now there. If site specific posts are requested, then the mods misinformed us as to where to post it.

@enderland, Not MSE?

Magisch

with 350 some on MSO before it got migrated, maybe 800 some people saw our post

enderland

@Andy of course not, you forget that anyone who is in this chat room is probably way more SE obsessed than nearly everyone else involved with SE

ArtOfCode

2:31 PM

and I'm not thinking all the sites, either - just places like AD, Drupal, and Graphics

Andy

I'll agree with going back through the transcript, but it's on MSE. The biggest argument for moving it there was that it's mother meta.

enderland

@Andy no, that wasn't the biggest argument

Magisch

@Andy Do you want to open that debate again?

enderland

anyways I don't want to rehash this over and over again, but you guys seem oblivious to why people were frustrated

ArtOfCode

This is ignoring any arguments we had over location two days ago. The question is purely "we have this thing on MSE; is it worth posting mini-announcements on heavily affected sites pointing to that"

enderland

2:32 PM

because of that I would strongly recommend you don't go posting on other meta sites

Andy

@enderland You're right. That was a very bad summary.

Glorfindel

!!/report english.stackexchange.com/q/374958/116151

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: What is androbe? by androbee on english.SE

ArtOfCode

fwiw I think enderland is right that a lot of people don't read MSE

SmokeDetector

tpu- by Mithrandir

enderland

2:33 PM

I don't even regularly read MSE and I'm... way too involved in SE for my own good

Magisch

Probably more members of drupal.SE read MSO then MSE

ArtOfCode

@enderland oh, we're not oblivious, just that a bunch of us disagree[d]

Magisch

I don't regularly read MSE and I frequent 6 metas

Glorfindel

@JF ^^^ I found one for you.

J F

thanks :)

enderland

2:34 PM

@ArtOfCode again, that's the problem. you see it as a different issue than the people who were upset, which is why I again will say:

1 min ago, by enderland

because of that I would strongly recommend you don't go posting on other meta sites

Andy

I agree

Magisch

so enlighten us @enderland

What issue did the other people see

Andy

@Magisch, we discussed it a few days ago.

Magisch

Not like any non-mods among us could even know since we aren't privy to TL talk

Andy

In this room.

Magisch

2:36 PM

I want to hear another perspective on it

You know, in case I was wrong

ArtOfCode

@enderland why, though? I'm not suggesting we turn up on meta in combat mode and say "we're doing this thing, tough if you don't like it". I'm saying we turn up and say "this is what's happening, we've discussed it with SE, details are here, let us know about any concerns you have"

Andy

@Magisch You are coming off as very abrasive.

Magisch

Not my intention

Kyll

@enderland Why were they?

Honest inquiry, I have pretty much no idea what's going on right now

Magisch

Maybe the finer points of english language elude me in that case

Cerbrus

2:37 PM

From a less informed user's point of view: I was surprised it was on meta.SE. SO gets more traffic, more spam, and more views...

ArtOfCode

@Magisch tl;dr: one point of view is that we should be informing the communities this affects, because not to do so comes across as not caring what they think

enderland

@ArtOfCode Just imagine that a handful of regular users showed up here out of the blue, made a pinned chat post that told you "you guys aren't good enough, we're here to help and take over charcoal for you, SE approved it, sorry have a good day bye"

it's not the same thing but the feeling is going to be communicated the same

Andy

@Kyll, Not speaking for enderland, but it was my understanding that recent announcements have been confined to MSO. These announcements are missed by the other sites on the network, many of which aren't programmer related so there is not as much overlap as you'd think. Then, when something is rolled out (top nav), it's to late for those sites to be involved in the process. The post on MSO read the same way to many.

2

Magisch

In that case, per-site meta would be better

enderland

@Cerbrus it's not a SO specific topic, just the same as I wouldn't post a feature request for Workplace on MSO just to "get more views"

Magisch

2:40 PM

as far as informing as many people on as many different SE sites as possible goes, MSO would be the best single place, as only hardcore SE cracks regularly visit MSE. But failing that, individual announcements would work I think

ArtOfCode

@enderland but that's the former of my two examples, which I'm explicitly not proposing we do. I'm proposing we say "tell us about any concerns", which is the polar opposite of sorry have a good day bye.

Magisch

Pending what enderland says, which is something I can empathize with

enderland

@ArtOfCode but you're missing my point. There's no way to really avoid coming across that way

Cerbrus

@enderland Nor a "call to action" on SO, right?

Magisch

enderland may be right though

Kyll

2:40 PM

@enderland Isn't there? What about at least trying to draft it and check on the draft then?

ArtOfCode

@enderland No, I understand that, but I disagree. I think it's entirely possible to avoid that

Magisch

It'd be hard to shake the feeling that we're at least implying a "the mods aren't good enough at this" for people who are self conscious

enderland

@ArtOfCode it's going to come across as: "we're doing this to your site per the blessing of SE, if you dislike it you need to tell us you dislike it"

Kyll

@enderland it may be so yeah, hence why we need to frame it very well if we do it at all

ArtOfCode

What if we left SE out of it?

quartata

2:41 PM

@ArtOfCode Is there a better way to scrape Metasmoke other than.... scraping Metasmoke?

Cerbrus

@enderland what's wrong with that?

ArtOfCode

@quartata the API? :P

Andy

@quartata There is an API.

enderland

@Cerbrus so because a precedent being set by a single user (which in case you didn't notice, was HIGHLY controversial anyways)?

Magisch

@ArtOfCode Then we can at least expect a bunch of people to go "We never gave you permission for this, stop sockpuppeting on our site wtf"

enderland

2:42 PM

7 mins ago, by enderland

1 min ago, by enderland

because of that I would strongly recommend you don't go posting on other meta sites

Kyll

Seriously, I don't get the absolute positioning

Cerbrus

Please don't nest those

Kyll

Draft the thing, double-check and triple-check and dodecatuple-check it as we usually do

enderland

@Kyll You see it as a matter of being right, which technically is the case, but are completely missing the effect it actually has on real people

Magisch

The question is

ArtOfCode

2:43 PM

@Magisch and that's the point at which we say "unfortunately we didn't have the resources to do that, but we did discuss it with SE and now we'd like to hear your opinions".

quartata

Also if this is about reposting on site metas i'm inclinded to agree not to do it if only because it isn't really something in the scope of just that site

Cerbrus

@enderland I think you're overestimating the effect

Magisch

Do we want a lot of people to know about this

If our answer is yes, art of code is right

quartata

It belongs on mother Meta

Magisch

@enderland You're at this point arguing against making people aware of it, which also has merits

Kyll

2:44 PM

@enderland I don't see it as any matter, for there is nothing to discuss on. Of course we're not going to copy/paste the thing on all Metas. We'd need to at least have a draft of what it may look like to be able to judge anything

Magisch

But if we're going that way it begs the question why we made a meta post to begin with

enderland

@Cerbrus am I? I doubt that given a lot of the... conflicts that this chat room has created inadvertently over the past years with other sites

quartata

@Andy oooh

ArtOfCode

@enderland you mean the whole two of them?

Magisch

I only remember one

enderland

2:44 PM

@ArtOfCode the perception exists regardless of quantity

Magisch

Which I apologized for

ArtOfCode

there was one about a year before that, @mag

Magisch

and the mod told me not to worry about anymore and accepted my apology

Cerbrus

@Kyll This. I think this is a bit too hypothetical to get cautious / judge-y.

Magisch

I assumed good faith and took him at his word, and I still do.

quartata

2:45 PM

Wasn't there something with the original Charcoal going nuts too?

enderland

I think if you can clearly answer, "what added value will posting this on a site specific meta be?" then yes, go ahead and post it

Kyll

@enderland Raise awareness and get some useful feedback from these communities?

Magisch

@enderland Make more people in that community aware of it (the original goal of our meta post)

ArtOfCode

@enderland exactly what a bunch of people argued for the other day - informing the communities this affects.

Cerbrus

Just for my info: @enderland: are you an employee, also?

enderland

2:46 PM

right now the only value I see is an, "oops, we started auto flagging stuff on your site without even mentioning it to you" rather than "btw we're doing this to you"

quartata

@enderland It still just feels like it would get migrated to mother meta and then closed as a dupe

Magisch

Through my understanding including the site communities in the process was the chief goal in moving it to MSE in the first place

Cerbrus

@enderland What's the difference?

ArtOfCode

And giving them a chance to express their concerns on their own site, instead of relying on someone going to MSE, which as you said they might not.

quartata

since it's global

Kyll

2:47 PM

@enderland Yeah but you can't see that value without seeing at least a draft. Right now it's entirely hypothetical...

enderland

@Cerbrus the motivation? I've seen literally no hint of "oh, maybe we should have asked site communities before we started auto flagging spam on their sites" from anyone in this chat room so far

Magisch

@enderland So you think instead of informing them now we should just keep doing it and not tell them? (and have the excuse of "we told y'all by pointing to the MSE post with sub 500 views?)

quartata

Unless it actually has very specific site consequences like if we're posting in their room

Kyll

Seriously, draft up the thing and involve us as usual. We'll discuss then. This is all a waste of time right now.

Cerbrus

^

enderland

2:48 PM

A meta post is basically an announcement, rather than a conversation. if you want a conversation, drop a link to the MSE post in each site's public room

In chat?

yes

Eh, let's not

We're already pretty much decided that we'll keep doing this

Cerbrus

That's not manageable

enderland

2:48 PM

@Cerbrus but individual meta posts are?

Andy

@Cerbrus Why? Especially on sites where Smokey posts to a dedicated room, this is a great idea.

Magisch

So outside of adressing specific concerns in writing and making small changes to the system there isn't really a debate

ArtOfCode

Okay. I'm going to write a draft. To be clear: this does not mean we will post it. I'll write a draft, ask for feedback (including you, @enderland), and then we can make the call.

Mithrandir

Pin a message in the rooms where Smokey posts messages?

enderland

@Magisch right. so why even bother posting it on their metas? that's exactly the attitude which you guys have which is why posting on their meta will cause problems

Cerbrus

2:49 PM

@Mithrandir At most

quartata

I don't see why you can't just ping these people in the TL

Magisch

@enderland To let them know, of course

enderland

@Magisch sigh. you don't get it at all

ArtOfCode

@enderland if a site really doesn't want it, we'll turn it off for them, that's not an issue.

Magisch

You know we started writing up the meta post as soon as we went 3 flags

Cerbrus

2:49 PM

If you want feedback from users, you need a meta discussion. Chat is too fast paced and horrible to keep track of what's been said.

enderland

@Cerbrus Magisch just said there isn't a discussion - chat being an announcement of the MSE post is probably best

Cerbrus

Those announcements will be fire-and-forget.

Kyll

@ArtOfCode Thanks

Cerbrus

Nobody is going to be referring back to a chat announcement made 4 months ago

enderland

again, I've yet to see a clear, meaningful reason to post this. I can think of several but none are being discussed here at all by any of you

ArtOfCode

2:52 PM

There is a discussion to be had. If we're being technical, we should have informed communities this was happening - we didn't because, as I've said, we didn't have the resources. But there is a discussion - and if the result of it is that X site doesn't want it, we'll turn it off.

Cerbrus

So what do you suggest, @enderland?

rene

@ArtOfCode one possible outcome is post a link to the draft in the TL. Mods can then decide to post on their own meta.

Kyll

^ I like this idea.

enderland

@ArtOfCode a good template would be something like, "For X weeks we've been running an experiment with autoflagging spam. We want to ensure that your community wants this feature, so we've turned it off temporarily - overall it has a 99.5+ accuracy rate. Here is a link to all the autoflagged posts from your site during the duration"

ArtOfCode

@enderland clear, meaningful reason: (a) informing people what's currently happening (b) giving them a chance to express their concerns (c) giving them a chance to get us to knock it off, if there's consensus they don't want it

enderland

2:53 PM

@ArtOfCode you will have a lot better reception if it's opt in vs opt out

Cerbrus

I'd go for opt-out instead of opt-in.

ArtOfCode

Likewise, because in reality the likelihood of people not wanting this once they understand the details is I think low.

enderland

@ArtOfCode so let them decide that!

Cerbrus

I'll refrain from mentioning a sticky nav bar being opt-out.

quartata

@rene I think that suffers from the same problem mentioned earlier which is not all mods read the TL. I suppose you could pin it to up your chances of them noticing but

ArtOfCode

2:54 PM

sure, yeah - but meanwhile, we keep flagging under the relatively safe assumption that they'll want to keep it

enderland

@Cerbrus sure. but you are 100% believing in the value here and have no concerns about it and know the inmost workings of the system and everything. you have NO reservations about the system, don't feel like your site community is being invaded by autoflaggers or anything else

Cerbrus

What problem could one possibly have with spam being deleted at a 99.5% accuracy?

Seriously

rene

@quartata OK, we can't fix disconnected mods and disconnected communities. We're only good in dealing with spam.

enderland

@Cerbrus that's the issue that Magisch has. you fundamentally cannot see any reason why other people won't 100% buy into your product you're selling them and as a result, have framed your entire approach around that (false) premise

ArtOfCode

@Cerbrus that's not the (potential) problem - the problem is that a bunch of foreigners have turned up and started doing things that are usually community-handled without telling anyone

Right. Lemme go write this draft.

Cerbrus

2:56 PM

@ArtOfCode Shouldn 't that have been announced the moment we started flagging on other sites, then?

enderland

Not to mention it means that the visibility of what is happening on-site is hidden from moderators of the site

ArtOfCode

@Cerbrus technically, yes

enderland

@Cerbrus yeah, it should have, which is why I said:

9 mins ago, by enderland

@Cerbrus the motivation? I've seen literally no hint of "oh, maybe we should have asked site communities before we started auto flagging spam on their sites" from anyone in this chat room so far

Cerbrus

So what's the point in suddenly turning it off, now?

Why make it opt-in?

It's been running without problems on those sites.

ArtOfCode

@enderland this isn't true - most spam gets handled by the community and not seen by mods anyway, especially on the sites this would get posted on.

enderland

2:58 PM

@ArtOfCode "the community" or Charcoal?

ArtOfCode

@enderland around half and half, or 4:2, most of the time.

Cerbrus

@enderland: You're aware that those auto flags can't unilaterally delete a spam post, right?

Transcript for