TRPG General Chat

6:01 PM

I'm objecting to stuff like 'how to roleplay [concept] with [considerations]' getting shut down for daring to be asked from a roleplaying/logic-primary/sociopsychological perspective, not system-primary/RAW/mechanical/'rollplaying' perspective.

(I'm just naming that one because I don't remember many other people's questions off the top of a hat.)

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh It is worth noting that that question remains open (IIRC) so in the end the stack decided it did not need a system. Sure, there was a bit of conflict, but people argue about less than that.

with respect to the question you asked anyways.

GreySage

@vicky_molokh With nothing invested in this conversation, my immediate opinion of those kinds of questions is: Either it's offtopic (because it's about acting and not about TTRPGs), or system considerations would at minimum help with forming an answer, because different systems do different things and require different things.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose Either that or a similar question was (my subjective phrasing: 'had to be') reopened through a moderator override and a note that such questions are in fact permitted.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh It was indeed that one that was reopened by a mod. It was also closed by a mod.

Mods are still part of the community and have their own opinions as well.

vicky_molokh

Closed by a mod who also holds a strong System Matters stance. I bring this up because I see it as a case of 'This question does not look stackable/answerable/specific enough to me' as 'This question is not stackable/answerable/specific enough for the stack as a whole'.

Rubiksmoose

6:08 PM

I think it is healthy to have that kind of back and forth and discussion when there are multiple viewpoints

vicky_molokh

Oh, back-and-forth and discussion is good.

I'm somewhat bothered by the shoot-first-and-discuss-later approach when it comes to matters divided by such stances.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I would strongly caution you from pigeonholing people's views with terminology that they have not said themselves. Especially seeing as that one tends to carry baggage.

vicky_molokh

> because it's about acting and not about TTRPGs

That's an interesting stance, that acting/roleplaying is not part of RPGs.

@Rubiksmoose I'm considering being more cautious in the future, but also as far as I remember the System Matters slogan was actually used in some of the follow-up discussions.

GreySage

@vicky_molokh Acting totally can be part of RPGs, but a question about Acting is not a question about RPGs. A question asking about the etymology of the word "Damage" would belong on the the English stack, not here, even though many RPGs use the concept of damage.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I mean I feel like this is one of those arguments where it would help if someone chose an example and discussed it. It is likely that you and vicky are imagining different questions entirely right now.

vicky_molokh

6:14 PM

@GreySage I think most RPG stuff can be moved outside the topic of RPGs if viewed through a sufficiently reductionist lens. Roleplaying can be moved to acting, anydice to mathexchange/stackoverflow, RAW discussions to wargaming/boardgaming (because they're played like wargames) etc.

Maybe even all of it.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I think that is wise. People don't like being told what their views are by the outside application of a label. Then you just devolve into arguing about the label instead of the actual ideas which is the more productive option to begin with.

Xirema

I think the issue here, speaking as someone who has made this mistake at least a few times in the past, is that if you're only familiar with a small subset of TTRPGs, you Dunning-Krueger yourself into an assumption [wrongly] that the rules and assumptions for Role-playing and narrative and agency are universal rules, and not rules specific to the system you're playing.

Or, a weaker version of that assumption: you think that the rules and assumptions that are in place for a specific game can be unobtrusively extrapolated to any other system.

Rubiksmoose

The most common example being that people think that their D&D problem is applicable to the entire RPG industry which is ridiculous. which is an amazingly and depressingly common idea and problem that we face here commonly.

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose Labels are two-edged swords. They can be muddying like you say, but they also serve to reduce endless tangents and focus on the important categories with known criteria.

> The most common example being that people think that their D&D problem is applicable to the entire RPG industry which is ridiculous.

Oh, I remember this situation from a very different perspective. Me: 'System-agnostic: I saw this problem in systems X, Y and Z'; commenter: 'But this is only a problem in D&D, not other systems!'

Xirema

A good example is the difference in narrative agency between, say, D&D, and Powered by the Apocalypse. In D&D, the player's narrative agency is describing what they want to do, rolling dice, and the DM narrating or explaining how successfully they do the thing. In PbtA, the player's narrative agency is explaining what they want to do, rolling dice, and then depending on the outcome, either the DM or the player gets the job of narrating or explaining how successfully it happens.

Rubiksmoose

6:20 PM

@vicky_molokh Are you talking about the discussion about your RP question? If so, I didn't see it (and they were wrong) or you may have misinterpreted their meaning.

vicky_molokh

IIRC it's on that question, yes.

Xirema

So in D&D, if I succeed on a persuasion check to get a spy to reveal their secrets, the DM describes to me what the spy knows. But in PbtA, if I succeed on a [I don't know the formal name of the roll PbtA uses...] check, I can invent details about what the spy knows and what they tell me that the DM may not have had in mind.

Rubiksmoose

You seem like you are arguing from that one question. The D&D issue is one we see seriously all the time on many many questions across this site.

Xirema

Of course, I'm being very abstract, and different tables play differently, blah blah blah, don't @ me.

But if someone came in with a question like "if my player succeeds at persuading a spy to divulge their secrets, how much are they allowed to decide what the spy knows?", I'd block attempts to label the question as "System Agnostic". Because the answers vary too much from system to system.

Rubiksmoose

Many people don't even realize that there are other RPGs besides D&D (or think that is the generic name for all of them)

vicky_molokh

6:24 PM

@Rubiksmoose I'm generally sticking to the stuff I remember better at the moment in the discussion.

Xirema

And it doesn't matter that D&D and PbtA both have systems that permit "persuading an NPC to betray their organization"; it's still a very different question depending on which game system is involved.

Rubiksmoose

@Xirema right on.

There is also the practical consideration: why not just tell us what game you are playing? This will result in better answers to your exact issue. Now, if you aren't actually playing any system this of course doesn't really help, but the vast majority of problems here are rooted in a problem a person experienced in or in the context of a single game system.

GreySage

Unrelated tangent, I dislike loading bars that don't actually indicate progress, like Windows' endless spinning balls. If you have a bar that fills up over time, let it actually mean something and not be just a visual distraction.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage I'd rather that than no indicator though. That is the worst.

vicky_molokh

> why not just tell us what game you are playing?

I did though. I named the game lines in which the situation occurred.

Rubiksmoose

6:30 PM

@vicky_molokh oh that wasn't targeted at you. It was the generic "you asking this hypothetical question".

Xirema

@GreySage Speaking as a programmer by trade who has attempted to implement accurate loading bars in applications, I have entire rants I could give about why your perspective is valid but also incredibly impractical and possibly one of the hardest problems in computer science.

MikeQ

@Rubiksmoose I'd skip if it's an issue that occurs in multiple systems

GreySage

@Rubiksmoose I would prefer no indicator, or even better, simple text that says "Loading..."

Xirema

(Hint; it overlaps strongly with The Halting Problem)

vicky_molokh

I've dealt with making loading bars (Unity 3D, coding in C#). It's not easy to get a prediction of what percentage of loading time is complete.

GreySage

6:32 PM

@Xirema Even inaccurate loading bars give the sensation that something is happening, as long as they aren't on an endless loop.

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ Why does that matter? There are lots of issues that are common to multiple systems, but the vast majority of the time the context and solutions to those problems change. And if they don't answers can always give a general non-system-specific answer that covers all of them!

vicky_molokh

There's also the problem that sometimes the big chunks of loading happen between frames (and frames thus happen seconds apart!).

MikeQ

@Rubiksmoose Ok, I'd skip the tag if it's an issue that occurs in different games across multiple systems. Like if it's a GM or player or roleplaying issue.

GreySage

@vicky_molokh Which is fine. I don't care about accuracy, I care about feeling like I'm being sucked into an endless void in which nothing changes and from which there is no escape, which happens with mindless repetitive animations. Faking accuracy is fine.

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ That would be a judgement call though, if the systems were 5e and PF and 3.5 about roleplyaing your probably ok. If they occured in those systems and are about spellcasting then the question doesn't work

vicky_molokh

6:35 PM

@GreySage Oh, I didn't mean it's an issue of inaccuracy, but rather that there are periods of 'nothing happening' on the screen even while the computer is doing a lot of progress.

MikeQ

@Rubiksmoose Right, the difference being that "about spellcasting" means that the question is dealing with (part of) a particular system

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ Sure, but arguably a problem you have in any given system is often associated with that system. Not always, but often. And that context is important. Again, this is something that is going to come down to the specifics of what you are actually asking and the particulars of the system(s) involved.

I would argue that specifying the system never hurts the question though.

If it occurred in the context of that system

It might not end up being relevant (in which case answers would be the similar to if you had left it system agnostic) but it could be incredibly relevant (in which case your answer is now a better solution for your problem in your game using the specifics of the system you were playing).

vicky_molokh

@Rubiksmoose I can think of a way in which it hurts in the context of RPGSE: it filters out people who are able and willing to answer the general question, but won't see it because they don't like the system and thus have it in the ignore tags.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I will say that if people are not experts in the system, they shouldn't be answering a problem that happened in the context of a system regardless since they have no idea what tools or context the system provides to solve the issue. So this seems to be working as intended it might (might) limit the audience of your question but the audience is better suited to answer it.

vicky_molokh

Then there's the issue that 5 system tags won't fit with the other tags on a single question.

Rubiksmoose

6:46 PM

I could also argue the opposite: there certainly people that are only interested in question about a system and might not be interested in SA questions at all. Thus, it might equal out or even get a better audience. (I don't have any numbers on hand that show either way).

vicky_molokh

Hmm. When an issue occurs over multiple systems, I think filtering out people who avoid SA questions is more acceptable, perhaps even helpful.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh sure I think filtering out is an important function of any tag as well as filtering "in"

vicky_molokh

I just think that a tenuously connected tag is a form of misinformation when it comes to filtering.

It essentially misleads people into thinking that [tag] is a big deal for the question, and at least in the top-five big-deal categories applicable for the question . . . in question.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh system tags are treated a bit differently. dnd-5e question are not inherently about the system ever necessarily. It is always just there to mark what system is being used.

In that way it is different from the other tags by design.

vicky_molokh

I'm now imagining a system-agnostic system-specific question by tags, which is rather on the ridiculous side when I think of it.

Rubiksmoose

6:52 PM

To be clear though if the question is truly system agnostic then that tag should be sufficient. SA should never be combined with a system tag

vicky_molokh

Exactly!

Rubiksmoose

Right and what I'm arguing is that many questions should have a system tag instead

vicky_molokh

Some yes. 'Many' - I am not sure about the proportions of those which can be answered from a non-system-centric PoV vs. those that can't be.

But I'm wary of hasty categorisations into the system-mandatory.

(Personal bias here - because I've been 'hit' by it.)

Rubiksmoose

Yeah I'm not sure of the breakdown either. My experience and recollection is comfortable with "many" but a rigid analysis could easily prove that incorrect (or confirm it)

@vicky_molokh here's the thing though. coming back to my big point, it often at the very least doesn't hurt. Your RP question aside (I'm still of two minds about it but it turned out fine according to the answers and it seems like the correct decision was made) for many questions, a system can only add context and information and is never a limit to the way you can answer.

MikeQ

The system tag often limits which answers are acceptable, or at least how they're received by the community

Expect comments like "-1 The question is tagged [dnd-6e] but this answer uses examples from [dnd-7e] therefore it's irrelevant"

Rubiksmoose

7:02 PM

@MikeQ But in that case, it is for the better. If an answer to a system-specific question answers in a way that shows ignorance of the system then it is not a good answer. And if the question is tagged with a system that is the system you should be referencing. You can still be more general, but I get your point.

vicky_molokh

> If an answer to a system-specific question

Thing is, it's not a given that it's a genuinely system-specific question rather than a system-specific pigeonhole that was enforced by people other than the asker.

Rubiksmoose

@vicky_molokh I don't see how who puts the tag in matters in any way. If it matters to the question, it will get put in. If it doesn't it won't. And it is on that point that we can and seemingly will argue when a question comes along that is ambiguous.

Anyways I'm a bit weary of arguing at this point. And this conversation probably could have gotten its own chat room. But let's let the discsussion move on if people want.

vicky_molokh

We've certainly hit diminishing returns on clarity improvements.

Rubiksmoose

I appreciate the debate though and I think I learned a lot about where you are coming from that will help me understand and empathise going forward.

It also helped to crystalize and challenge some of my own views as well

Rubiksmoose

7:27 PM

@GreySage I reedited one of the words in the toad question to revert it to saying "across" the mouth since it is unclear if that is what they meant.

^Disregard. OP clarified. :)

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose I think a better question is if fireball is cast form inside the toad, targeting the inside of the toad, does it still explode out?

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 that's certainly an interesting one.

I guess the answer would be "no" though.

goodguy5

I mean, it "goes around corners"

GreySage

@goodguy5 Another, equally valid question.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Sure but total cover there might imply no covers to go around.

Might be interesting to see answers to that though that was just from the hip

As a DM I think it would be fun to rule that it might when the toad opens its mouth to breathe or something, but I think that would be playing around with RAW a bit.

Either way, that toad is hurting lol

GreySage

7:48 PM

@Rubiksmoose Toads breathe through their skin most of the time.

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage oh yeah! silly biology

goodguy5

"It goes around the corners of the sinus passages!"

GreySage

When my wife was playing a Circle of the Moon druid I kept encouraging her to use Giant Toad/Frog as her wildshape. She refused, my arguments of how awesome it would be to eat her enemies were ineffective.

goodguy5

I would, however, argue that if the explosion were enough to make the druid revert back to "human" form, then that allows the fireball to explode normally.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 That thought crossed my mind as well.

goodguy5

8:11 PM

I think that the beowulf might be OP grabage

Rubiksmoose

That damage seems really high no?

goodguy5

Seems high to me. and the attack bonus seems high.

but it's a goblin attack.

A bunch of things get 6-8 damage at that level across two attacks.

also it's not even written right

Rubiksmoose

8:32 PM

@goodguy5 no it is all janky. Also there are #s where numbers should be? And text in places where it shouldn't.

goodguy5

I'm just going to stop looking at it.

Rubiksmoose

hahaha probably for the best

goodguy5

Anklosaurus is terrifying, though.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 looks like gandalfmeansme has you covered with their answer

goodguy5

yep

David Coffron

8:53 PM

Yeah. I think I overreacted with my judgment. The rules are so poorly worded and laid out that it isn't necessarily low research like I originally figured

Xirema

I'm suddenly giddy with the prospect of a nearly-7' tall half-orc summoning a 3-4' Mastiff to use as their mount.

goodguy5

verboten!

Xirema

(RAW, I think medium creatures are allowed to ride medium-sized mounts summoned with Find Steed, but NOT medium-sized mounts summoned with Find Greater Steed. There's some vernacular trickery going on between them that changes the result)

Carcer

@DavidCoffron well, counterpoint, if there had been any research done there the question would probably have looked more like "how do I apply these guidelines"

goodguy5

@Xirema See, I would expect you to argue the opposite.

lemme check beyond, rather than my janky 3rd party source

V2Blast

9:02 PM

BTW, Target and Amazon are currently selling the D&D 5e Starter Set for $9.59:
https://www.target.com/p/dungeons-dragons-starter-pack-game/-/A-53318738
https://smile.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Starter-Wizards-Team/dp/0786965592/

also, D&D Beyond encounter builder is in the works:

It ain't ready for a night out on the town yet, but it lives! @DnDBeyond encounter builder emerges from the primordial soup - look forward to seeing how it evolves and getting it out for some testing!

Tweeted by BadEyeAdam on February 13, 2019 at 2:33 AM

and WotC's releasing a Stranger Things-themed "Starter Set":
https://comicbook.com/gaming/2019/02/13/stranger-things-dungeons-dragons-starter-set/
https://www.amazon.com/Hasbro-Stranger-Dungeons-Dragons-Roleplaying/dp/B07G5X6N5P/

CTWind

Yeah, wouldn't be surprised if that's why the 'old' one's going on sale.

goodguy5

@Xirema hrm..... RAI is definitely no and I would veto any smug player attempting it.

I'm still not sure raw supports it, but I see why you'd say that. Just because something serves you as a mount, doesn't mean it can actually carry you.

But I suppose, what's the harm.

MikeQ

How would one go about appraising the value of a misprinted PHB ?

goodguy5

how misprinted

MikeQ

Flipped and turned upside down

goodguy5

9:09 PM

emptymirrorbooks.com/collecting/misprinted-books

likely none and you could be better off just taking it back

MikeQ

Eh, it's fun enough for novelty purposes, when folks are playing 5e in person

goodguy5

yea, I think most of it's value is to you.

Xirema

@goodguy5 That's kind of my sense as well. I'm just not sure if the "serves you as a mount" line in Find Steed is one of those "Specific beats General" lines or not.

After all, Flavor Text doesn't exist in 5e™.

goodguy5

love the use of ™ there.

but Riding dogs are listed as mounts in .... "equipment"?... but your halforc still can't ride them.

Carcer

I would interpret that it is still consistent if it serves you as a mount but you can't ride it yourself

you could instruct it to be a mount for another, smaller friend

goodguy5

9:19 PM

^basically what I was trying to say

GreySage

Gnomes

MikeQ

Quarter-orcs

goodguy5

isn't that a dupe?

0

Q: Can I pick up and drop a person in one turn, in dnd 5e?

So I am a level 6 barbarian, right, (I have 2 attacks) so I picked up a person as one attack and walked him over to a well and with my second attack I want to drop him. Can I do that all in one turn?

that seems so familiar

BESW

I feel like Find Steed should just summon Fluttershy to help you.

CTWind

@Xirema Every time I read this, I'm reminded of this argument I got in over taking rules text out-of-context to make it mechanically relevant.

Xirema

9:32 PM

@CTWind Yeah. I think as a rule going forwards, if I say "Flavor Text does not exist in 5e", it should be interpreted as tongue-in-cheek. Because it's something that's lower-case-a accurate while not necessarily being capital-T True.

trogdor

@BESW lol

a very reasonable solution

CTWind

@Xirema Don't worry, I got it :-P

Carcer

there is a simple logical explanation

flavour text does not exist in 5e but neither does internal consistency

@doppelgreener I think that grab and drop question might want re-opening (the answer is a trivial yes, but the querent seems to need reassurance)

trogdor

10:08 PM

@kviiri I actually picked up Invisible Inc a week or so ago (it was on sale for extremely cheap) I have not played it yet but only because I have two games I am already playing simultaneously

not literally but yeah

doppelgreener

@Carcer Thanks! Looks like it's reopened already.

Carcer

@doppelgreener I assumed you'd done it!

doppelgreener

NautArch did :)

dupe hammer, boom

V2Blast

@MikeQ Just so you know, that kind of misprint is really common. The only reason WotC doesn't get bad PR for it is because they will happily send you a new copy if you contact customer support (without even asking for the misprinted book back).

So such misprints are basically worthless

Carcer

@MikeQ I'd like to take a minute just sit right there

GreySage

10:21 PM

@V2Blast Good for them

Ben

10:34 PM

Good morning all!

V2Blast

@Ben: Good evening! :P

Mark Wells

@BESW Yoink. All Paladin steeds in my games are now magical ponies.

Ben

Happy Valentines Day :D

Mark Wells

Except for the one where the Paladin is Sailor Moon and her steed is a giant cat.

BESW

trogdor

10:37 PM

@MarkWells she has a giant cat mount?

wow

XD

V2Blast

Watching the Dragon+ segment with Bart Carroll and Jeremy Crawford from 2/6... Apparently Crawford was working on a segment about adjudicating allusions in 5e. He initially thought of putting it in the PHB, then the DMG, then Xanathar's, but didn't have space for it/time to focus on it. He said he might put it out as a UA to get feedback and then maybe it'll finally get published :P

BESW

I also use MLP fanart for Masters of Umdaar characters.

BARD: I cast minor allusion DM: do you mean-- BARD: he sees a dagger before him, the handle toward his hand

Tweeted by IdealTrajectory on July 21, 2018 at 6:14 PM

V2Blast

Haha, yeah, saw that a few days back

I think it was posted here

Crawford also confirms Vylix's answer here, 22 minutes into the video:

7

A: Does True Seeing work through Scrying?

Yes, it does work The deciding part is this sentence in the description of the scrying spell: You can see and hear through the sensor as if you were there. If you were there, while affected by true seeing, could you see and hear into the Ethereal Plane, see invisible creatures and objects,...

V2Blast

10:55 PM

I just heard the phrase "Otto's irresistible pop-and-lock"

Miniman

@trogdor Wow, @trogdor looks like an @trogdor.

Also, apropos of nothing (except awesome), Link's Awakening is being remade for Switch.

Nintendo finally figured out the magic bullet that would make me buy a Switch.

Yuuki

Don't you sleep on Rune Factory 5.

And the biggest announcement of the Direct:

in The Bridge, 9 mins ago, by Unionhawk

WHERE WE DROPPIN, BOYS?

Tweeted by KdinJenzen on February 13, 2019 at 10:28 PM

V2Blast

lol

user15026

@Miniman Link's Awakening is my favourite Zelda game, hands down.

Miniman

@Ash Me too. Easily one of my favourite games of all time.

Have you played the randomizer of it?

user15026

11:08 PM

I've not, because those sorts of things tend to go poorly for my brain.

Miniman

It's a lot of fun (at least for me). I don't play entrance shuffle (because I'm not a masochist), but I've really had a good time with a basic chest shuffle.

Getting the Fire Rod as your first item is a feeling that's hard to beat.

V2Blast

Apparently Horizon Walker rangers can use Distant Strike outside combat by just attacking an object or something else

(discussed around 52 minutes into the 2/6/19 Dragon+ episode)

Yuuki

Although I suppose the "If you attack at least two different creatures with the action, you can make one additional attack with it against a third creature" clause wouldn't apply.

V2Blast

Haha, obviously

Ben

TY @V2Blast for your editing :)

trogdor

11:31 PM

@Miniman lol, I have been lureing you mortals into a false sense of not getting BURNINATED

Fear the wrath of trogdor

Also what is Links Awakening?

I don't think I've even heard of that one

Ben

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening is a 1993 action-adventure video game developed by Nintendo Entertainment Analysis & Development and published by Nintendo for the Game Boy. It is the fourth installment in The Legend of Zelda series, and the first for a handheld game console. Link's Awakening began as a port of the Super NES title The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past, developed after-hours by Nintendo staff. It grew into an original project under the direction of Takashi Tezuka, with a story and script created by Yoshiaki Koizumi and Kensuke Tanabe. It is one of the few Zelda games not...

One of the earlier ones

trogdor

Ooooh ok

Nevermind I have heard of this one

I just forgot its name

It's one of the only ones I have not played

Err

I somehow ended up deleting instead of editing that

Anyway I was saying there so many Zelda games,I probably haven't played close to half of them

I have played I think the two oldest ones

Ocarina and Majora's mask too, ( though I didn't finish Majora's,... My brother did because I actually disliked the heavy use of the time mechanic)

And I think a couple of others I don't remember the names of and then the newest one I ever played was twilight princess I think

Oh and Wind Waker

Of course that was one of em

I think Wind Waker was my favorite

Ben

11:53 PM

I have played OOA, OOS, Link's Awkanening, A Link to the Past, OOT, MM, Minish Cap, a little bit of Four Swords, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess and Breath of the Wild

trogdor

Ah ha I see you also skipped skyward sword

I never played minish or four swords

Ben

I missed out on the particular console SS was released on haha

trogdor

I think for me it was either that or I had burned out on Zelda at the time?

Ben

@trogdor The latter is not possible

MikeQ

You missed out on Wand of Gamelon

trogdor