TRPG General Chat

Yuuki

7:00 PM

I guess the lich would have to "accept" the resurrection...?

David Coffron

@Yuuki you'd have to kill it first (including destorying its phylo)

Colin Gross

@Yuuki Nothing. The spirit has to be free and willing.

David Coffron

then only if its willing to be rezzed (which is probably is, since it can just become a lich again)

Yuuki

@ColinGross So it has to be a killer whale lich?

SPavel

@ColinGross "The spirit is willing but the flesh is spongy and bruised"

@DavidCoffron Order of the Stick brings up a relevant point: will the creature retain its identity if it were thus resurrected?

NautArch

7:01 PM

@SPavel Death by snoo-snoo?

SPavel

@NautArch Undeath by snoo-snoo!

Colin Gross

Don't liches have to stuff their souls in something to become a lich?

David Coffron

@SPavel umm... yes?

GreySage

@SPavel Lich yes, Vampire/other undead no

SPavel

@DavidCoffron So an undead creature's soul is the same as the dead creature's soul?

David Coffron

7:02 PM

@ColinGross if you destroy the phylactery, the soul is elsewhere

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel That would be sorta funny, but a worthy project. Perhaps Brian Ballsun-Stanton (a former diamond mod here) could help write it. He's got a PHD in philosophy, IIRC.

David Coffron

@SPavel an undead creature's soul is a new soul (the killed creature's soul goes to the afterlife)

GreySage

@DavidCoffron Except for Liches

Mike Q

Chapter 1. What is a Player?
Chapter 1-A. What does it mean to "play"?
Chapter 1-A-i. What does it mean to "mean"?
Chapter 1-A-i-a. What does it mean to "be"?

David Coffron

@GreySage yeah. they trap their soul in a phylo

Yuuki

7:03 PM

Imagine trapping your soul in a baklava.

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Except the lich..

David Coffron

What is "language"?

Yuuki

Oh wait, that's phyllo.

NautArch

@DavidCoffron What is my purpose?

David Coffron

@SPavel I think a lich still has a soul. Just the original wizard soul is in the phylactery

SPavel

7:05 PM

@DavidCoffron So if a lich is killed and then resurrected, will the newly alive wizard have the personality/knowledge of the lich, or his original one from a thousand years ago?

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Is that soul sharing anything like a time share?

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel original. Per the errata for TR.

SPavel

@MikeQ If an RPG started with "here is what it means to play this game" I would respect it a lot

Colin Gross

@SPavel There's a 200 year limit on True Res

David Coffron

@SPavel I think the original one. YOu are resurrecting the wizard not the lich (although that wizard decided to become a lich so is still on that path)

SPavel

7:06 PM

This is clearly sub-optimal for the lich.

Colin Gross

@SPavel Which would then just not be willing

Yuuki

So becoming a lich results in soul duplication?

Colin Gross

@SPavel Although.. that makes a great lich-mus test for if the thing wants to continue being a lich or not.

David Coffron

@ColinGross Unless the wizard decides being resurrected and then just re-lich-ing is the best way to return to the world

Yuuki

Do I have to fight Missingno become a lich?

Colin Gross

7:07 PM

If True Res didn't work, it must really want to be a lich

Rubiksmoose

Does the "dead no more than 200 years" bit start at when they died first (pre-undead) or when you kill the lich? E.g. if a wizard died in the year 100, was immediately raised as a lich, and then is killed by the players in the year 400, can they still resurrect him until the year 601 or are they out of luck? — TylerH Apr 16 at 15:15

SPavel

Life hack: Obtain child prodigy, train him as a wizard while his brain is still plastic, lichify him, retain brain plasticity forever

Bonus: empathy never develops

David Coffron

@SPavel Level 17 child wizard? good luck

SPavel

Bonus 2: You can reboot the child to quickly update knowledge by kill/res/re-lich

Colin Gross

@SPavel I would imagine powerful wizardry as a profession self selects for lack of empathy.

SPavel

7:08 PM

@ColinGross Why?

Colin Gross

@SPavel Power generally does that.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose In the lich description, the wizard dies. The time starts counting when the lich is created

SPavel

@ColinGross No, power erodes empathy, not vice-versa

David Coffron

"The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich..."

SPavel

@ColinGross theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/07/…

Rubiksmoose

7:10 PM

@DavidCoffron Yeah I think that is the way I would rule it as well

Colin Gross

@SPavel Those with power are less likely to be empathetic. Mechanism not specified.

SPavel

@ColinGross Mechanism is specified, read my link

Having power has a brain damage-like effect on people

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Though technically they un-die. So that may actually reset the clock. Just like if they were resurrected.

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron What happens if the body is in a time loop for >200 years, but the loop starts and ends within a 200 year span

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I think the lich is a new crature entirely (new soul, new personality, etc.)

Rubiksmoose

7:11 PM

"The wizard falls dead, then rises as a lich..."

@DavidCoffron I don't think it gets a new soul.

Colin Gross

@SPavel I read that article a while ago. That does not preclude those with little empathy to start having a greater probability of ending up in power.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I think all creatures have souls in 5e

KorvinStarmast

@ColinGross That squares with some of my experiences with D&D players ... and any number of on line MMORPG players ...

SPavel

@ColinGross Empathy is very important for gaining power.

Mike Q

@DavidCoffron Even plants and oozes?

Rubiksmoose

7:12 PM

@DavidCoffron Liches have phylactories that serve as their souls is my understanding.

Colin Gross

@SPavel I disagree. The ability to manipulate people is pretty useful though. It does not require empathy.

Rubiksmoose

and I'm not actually sure that is true. I don't think zombies have souls.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose why not?

SPavel

@ColinGross Empathy is a HUGE advantage if you want to manipulate people

Rubiksmoose

"Soul Sacrifices. A lich must periodically feed souls to its phylactery to sustain the magic preserving its body and consciousness."

KorvinStarmast

7:13 PM

@SPavel I don't go to the Atlantic for science, but that is an interesting article.

Colin Gross

@SPavel I disagree. Manipulating people to their detriment is harder if you actually identify with their feelings.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose You are made out of meat, yet you must eat meat. It doesn't mean you are not meat.

@ColinGross Empathy != sympathy

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron Because they are reanimated corpses? They are sustained by magic not souls.

Yuuki

@ColinGross Manipulating people is harder when you don't understand their feelings.

KorvinStarmast

@ColinGross That depends, I've seen it work in a variety of ways ...

David Coffron

7:14 PM

"It does so using the imprisonment spell. Instead of one of the normal options of the spell, the lich uses the spell to magically trap the target's body inside its phylactery." Any creature can be targeted by imprisonment so what happens if I do the lich version of the spell on an undead?

Colin Gross

@SPavel I understand that. Sympathy is actually feeling what they are feeling. Empathy is recognizing the emotion of others as one that you have and being able to put yourself in their shoes.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I smell a question. :)

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron It gets trapped but offers no sustenance.

Yuuki

What if you cast freedom of movement on a lich's soul/phylactery?

Delioth

@ColinGross It's harder (on your conscience) if you internalize their feelings. I.e. if you're sympathetic. Identifying and understanding their feelings is empathy, but that doesn't require actually internalizing those feelings. I have a quote for this somewhere

Yuuki

7:16 PM

(What if you cast grease?)

Mike Q

@Yuuki The phylactery isn't grappling the soul, so nothing

Delioth

> It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

David Coffron

@Yuuki Nah, you need 9th level dispel magic

Yuuki

@Delioth This is why humor is the best medicine?

SPavel

@DavidCoffron It's like eating splenda vs sugar

All the taste, none of the calories

Yuuki

7:18 PM

Why would you eat splenda or sugar?

SPavel

@Yuuki Then you make the lich feel dirty.

NautArch

@Yuuki pixie stix

Yuuki

@NautArch waves hand You don't want to give me pixie stix.

waves hand You want to go home and rethink your dietary choices.

Rubiksmoose

o/ [waves back obliviously]

KorvinStarmast

@Yuuki As a Toydarian, I am impervious to your Jedi mind tricks.

SPavel

7:21 PM

@Yuuki Damn right I don't, these are my pixie stix

Get your own

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast I think spirit and soul are different... one of the lich's lair actions says: "the lich calls fourth the spirits of creatures that died in its lair..." Calling fourth souls would require that they be free or something. But spirits seem to be fine.

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Spirits are at least 80-proof

Yuuki

So the lich can only call forth people that died of intoxication while in their lair?

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I have a suspicion that the meaning in that ability description is intended to be equivalent, and I am not sure if anyone has asked JCrawford to confirm that. In context, it seems the only sensible way to read it ...

SPavel

@Yuuki And prolific mathematicians

David Coffron

7:23 PM

@KorvinStarmast And what happens if I resurrect every creature that had died in a lich's lair? Does that ability pull their spirits from their bodies?

SPavel

@DavidCoffron One could argue that the spirit is already "called forth"

Yuuki

@DavidCoffron And then the barbarian kills the lich for taking his whiskey.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron I am not convinced that there is an in game distinction, but if anyone finds it in the text that would be useful.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Even if not, I wish there was some information about what consitutes spirits and souls because many abilities reference them

KorvinStarmast

For example, the references to souls are mostly indirect; via text in various spells.

Rubiksmoose

7:25 PM

"Dark Servants. Sinister necromantic magic infuses the remains of the dead, causing them to rise as zombies that do their creator’s bidding without fear or hesitation. ...
Most zombies are made from humanoid remains, though the flesh and bones of any formerly living creature can be imbued with a semblance of life. Necromantic magic, usually from spells, animates a zombie. ... The magic animating a zombie imbues it with evil, so left without purpose, it attacks any living creature it encounters."

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Yeah, at which point remember rule 0.1 ... read the rules in plain English. In plain English, spirit/soul are usually equivalent.

Yuuki

@KorvinStarmast It's like they knew that if they defined souls, players would be setting up a soul economy/market.

KorvinStarmast

I am tempted to send JCrawford a tweet on that ...

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron even though it isn't stated explicitly the above text really suggests to me that no souls are involved here.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Agreed. I think it is a case-by-case basis.

I'm sure some undead (like vampires perhaps) do have souls, but others don't

Rubiksmoose

7:27 PM

@DavidCoffron oh certainly.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose And gas spores definitely shouldn't have souls (but treants probably do)

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Why not?

KorvinStarmast

Aaach, banshee not in SRD ... so nvm

SPavel

This isn't your average Christian cosmology, why can't objects have souls

David Coffron

@SPavel because that would mean a lich would probably just spam kill gas spores to sustain itself

SPavel

7:28 PM

@DavidCoffron If that's what it wants, why not

David Coffron

@SPavel Every lich I ever put in a campaign from now on will have gas spore farms lol

SPavel

Where do you draw the line? Do rats have souls? Ravens?

In some belief systems, objects have souls.

David Coffron

@SPavel That's the problem, I have no in text guidance.

GreySage

@DavidCoffron Every lich should have gas spores. They are both functional adventurer traps and aesthetically pleasing.

SPavel

Maybe the lich gains sustenance by smashing up pots. Maybe the reason that the Hero of Time never ages or dies is because he has slain Death itself...

David Coffron

7:30 PM

Does a lich have to be a humanoid wizard?

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel I mean nothing that I am aware of from lore it rules suggests that non sentient things have Souls.

SPavel

Gas spore lich

David Coffron

@SPavel Gas spores aren't smart enough to be wizards lol

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Gas spore wearing a ring of intelligence

doppelgreener

@SirCinnamon if undead minions have souls there would probably be a "we're setting their souls free from a horrific unlife" moral justification component to killing them.

Sir Cinnamon

7:31 PM

@doppelgreener What if they're going to hell though

SPavel

@doppelgreener I thought we established that undead have their own souls, distinct from the souls of the original beings?

doppelgreener

would they know that?

GreySage

@SirCinnamon Then they deserve it

Sir Cinnamon

Is service as an undead better than being part of the Blood War

Delioth

@doppelgreener Depends on the GM/world

Rubiksmoose

7:32 PM

@SPavel I think that varies greatly on the undead honestly.

Sir Cinnamon

@GreySage What if they traded their soul to a devil in exchange for money which they gave to orphans

doppelgreener

though D&D doesn't handle the concept of morals very well anyway, and moral quandraries don't work very well in a universe where the alignment of an act is objectively determinable as a universal fact.

SPavel

@SirCinnamon The chances of promotion are better

@SirCinnamon That is an Evil act because it increases the amount of Evil in the world, and also orphans are famously bad at fiscal responsibility

doppelgreener

(it handles morals fine, just not in the way our world handles them)

David Coffron

Sir Cinnamon

7:33 PM

@SPavel Those Baudelaires did their best to preserve their fortune

David Coffron

@SPavel seems legit ^^

SPavel

@DavidCoffron I put on my robe and wizard hat...

doppelgreener

Drax the Destroyer - I wasn't listening

►

SPavel

@doppelgreener Say what you want about Drax, at least he is honest

doppelgreener

he's great

SPavel

7:35 PM

"You are lucky that you are ugly. Beautiful people never know if others are being honest with them."

David Coffron

@SPavel One of my favorites. The cinematic version is so great (even if it strayed away from the comics quite a bit)

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron I love Drax as well.

David Coffron

I hope we get to see Avatar of Life Drax in the next movie (although I doubt it)

SPavel

I'm kind of confused about the movie order

because we had Avengers Infinity War, a movie about the fate of the universe

followed by Ant-man and the Wasp

David Coffron

marvelcinematicuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Delioth

7:38 PM

Ant-Man and the Wasp takes place before Infinity War

SPavel

Which has no stakes at all, comparatively

Yeah but it's released after

David Coffron

lots of things have concurrency

Mike Q

@SPavel There are actually multiple timelines, which split when Dr Strange fought Ganondorf

SPavel

For the viewers, isn't it a bit of a letdown

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Also Captain Marvel supposedly takes place in the 90s.

David Coffron

7:40 PM

@SPavel I mean that' been happening throughout. We had Doctor Strange (fate of the planet) right before GoG2 (fate of... fatherly love?)'

SPavel

lol there are AoS episodes after Infinity War?

David Coffron

@SPavel That part is wrong. They happen right before/during

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Fatherly love? Way more was at stake with Ego

Delioth

@SPavel Not really. Marvel's shown before that they don't need to escalate the stakes with every movie (re: Thor: Ragnarok -> Black Panther)

David Coffron

Age of Ultron followed by Ant-man?

Rubiksmoose

7:41 PM

@SPavel Also I really wouldn't want the aftermath of IW (no spoilers) to be handled in AMatW

Mike Q

Once the universe is in jeopardy, you can't really raise the stakes in a meaningful way. "Okay but now the multiverse is in jeopardy" is essentially the same thing.

SPavel

@Delioth The politics around panther make its stakes more meaningful

Delioth

Or Thor: Dark World -> Winter Soldier

David Coffron

@SPavel Also Black Panther is objectively cool

SPavel

@Delioth I can't actually remember what the stakes in Dark World were

David Coffron

7:42 PM

@SPavel the universe mostly

SPavel

Wasn't it just like, Thor and Hulk punching things

Delioth

Dark Elves threatening to destroy all the Realms

David Coffron

Dark Elves were going to make everything black

SPavel

Right, goths

Mike Q

@SPavel Something about elves, and Princess Amidala was possessed by the red stone thing, and I think Thor and Loki teamed up (again) and Loki betrayed him (again) and faked his death (again)

SPavel

7:42 PM

Goths vs preps

David Coffron

@MikeQ Loki does that a lot huh?

SPavel

Or I guess jocks

David Coffron

@MikeQ Plus the intern's intern

Delioth

It was another "fate of the universe" deals. And then we went on to other movies and the new ones were still great even though the stakes were lower.

SPavel

Anyway it doesn't count if the movie is forgettable

Honestly they should just make the villains fight

David Coffron

7:43 PM

@SPavel implying that Inifinity War isn't forgettable (kidding)

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Infinity War was just...dumb

David Coffron

@SPavel agree to disagree

SPavel

But it's not forgettable

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose there was this story i completely adored as well about someone's little brother falling in love with Drax: web.archive.org/web/20141231084657/http://…

(gifs might take a bit to load)

Mike Q

@SPavel I'd say it falls in at least the upper 50th percentile, in terms of quality

SPavel

7:45 PM

@MikeQ I didn't say it was bad!

The explosions were cool

They did manage to juggle ~4 different stories coherently

Delioth

I mean; Black Panther objectively has less on the line than many of the prior movies. Winter Soldier is roughly the same way. As was Iron Man 3, Spider-Man: Homecoming, Civil War... really, even GotG was a de-escalation from Thor:Dark World

David Coffron

@MikeQ I'd probably go Black Panther > Winter Soldier > Doc Strange > Iron Man > Avengers > GoG > Ragnarok > Infinity War

SPavel

But IMO the idiot ball got passed around a LOT in that movie

Mike Q

@SPavel The idiot ball is the driving force of most movie/TV superhero stories, so... not a surprise there.

@DavidCoffron In terms of what, quality?

Delioth

And the fate of the universe not being on the line doesn't mean the movie is a letdown

David Coffron

7:47 PM

@MikeQ how I enjoyed.

So highly subjective meaningless criterion

SPavel

And the whole "heroes meet each other for the first time and crank the snark up to 70 million out of ten" thing gets old

Rubiksmoose

I enjoyed Spiderman a TON. So that is in my top 3

goodguy5

holy surprise 134 rep, batman

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose Oh yeah. I always forget about that one when rating. It's in top 5 somewhere for me

Mike Q

@SPavel That's because half of them came to the existential crisis that they were basically the same character

David Coffron

7:48 PM

@MikeQ 2/3*

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener That is incredibly heartwarming!

SPavel

@MikeQ Marvel is just trying to one-up the amazing scene in the animated Justice League movie where Batman and Green Lantern meet

doppelgreener

@Rubiksmoose it is!!!!

it makes me like drax a lot more. it is a good thing he exists.

SPavel

This one

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener Me too. And definitely put an interesting spin on the character.

Yuuki

7:51 PM

@doppelgreener Part of me likes that Marvel did this as part of comedy writing rather than trying to obviously pander to an audience (cough cough The Good Doctor cough).

David Coffron

@SPavel That's hilarious. Haven't seen that

doppelgreener

@SPavel that dialog is gold

SPavel

@DavidCoffron Then you'll also like this

David Coffron

@SPavel Freaking Hal

Mike Q

@Delioth The magnitude of the stakes don't necessarily relate to the quality of the movie - when written badly, it's used as a crutch to artificially inflate the tension

Rubiksmoose

7:54 PM

@MikeQ Raising Steaks: The Undead Cow Moovie.

Mike Q

@Delioth It's even moreso apparent in tabletop gaming. Someone could have a terrible campaign about saving the universe, or a really awesome campaign about a lost cat. In fact, sometimes having smaller stakes is better because it's easier to relate to them.

David Coffron

@MikeQ #SuicideSquad

Delioth

@MikeQ Exactly - which is why it's a great thing that many of the Marvel movies, when seen in order, seriously lower the stakes from the prior movie (which is also why Ant Man and the Wasp being a less "important" movie doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a letdown to the fans)

NautArch

@SPavel god, i love batman

doppelgreener

@SPavel there's a gifset of that one which is fantastic because it just has the monsters beating on Hal on an endless loop, without anything after it.

SPavel

7:56 PM

@doppelgreener I could've sworn that the second time he gets knocked down, the monsters appear and beat on him the exact same way

But I must have been remembering that gif set

Rubiksmoose

@Delioth Honestly, universal stakes gets really tiring. It is nice to have a movie where the stakes are lowered honestly.

Like Homecoming. Friendly neighborhood Spiderman.

SPavel

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel lol

David Coffron

Why are the stakes in Marvel movies so low?

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