TRPG General Chat

4:00 PM

@SimonH. That is not an extra layer of strategy, it is forcing a player to play in a way that they do not want to necessarily.

Simon H.

@Rubiksmoose it's strategy because it forces them to think about how they use their ammo before they use it

NautArch

@SimonH. RIght, it's not just "I'll shoot at disadvantage long range" and the only downside is possibly missing. It's wasting arrows.

A Very Large Bear

@KorvinStarmast Augury is an example of a spell with a gp component that does not consume the component.

Simon H.

like, I have four arrows left. Should I shoot the giant full-health enemy attacking my teammates or should I shoot a couple minions to take them out and decrease the damage we take each round?\

Mike Q

@SimonH. What's to think about? Their #1 option is "put ammo in bow and shoot at something for damage"

Rubiksmoose

4:02 PM

@NautArch Can you explain your balance comment though? Melee fighters have nothing they need to track. Spellcasters have nothing they need to track. Why single out ranged and punish them? This sounds like realism at the expense of fun to me.

Unless, your table likes that thing explicitly.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose you raise a very good point

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose Spellcasters need to track spell slots tho

SPavel

@MikeQ How dare you want to play the character concept that you built, it's way more strategic and fun if you can only make 20 attack rolls and then you have to play a melee guy

NautArch

@MikeQ good coutnerpoint. And they need to track components at times.

Mike Q

The difference between limiting spells and limiting ammunition is that spells can do wacky stuff to warp reality to the user's will, and ammunition just makes things more hurt. Like a cantrip. It's like comparing apples and oranges, and the oranges can fly and summon demons.

Rubiksmoose

4:04 PM

@MikeQ and fighters have action surge and maneuver dice. But it is not a fair compairson.

A Very Large Bear

@Rubiksmoose Well a ranged fighter would have that too

Rubiksmoose

@AVeryLargeBear Exactly my point.

NautArch

@AVeryLargeBear But the balance may be offset by the melee fighter (not having to worry about physical resources) being much more at risk for damage.

Rubiksmoose

The playing field is equal. Class features with limited uses are tracked regardless. But fiddly ammo tracking is not.

Mike Q

@NautArch Yes, if the DM is only throwing melee enemies at the party, then ranged attackers will have an unfair advantage.

NautArch

4:06 PM

@MikeQ Okay...they are more at risk than a ranged combatant.

A Very Large Bear

My preference is to remove the non-critical fiddly bits as much as possible. So I wouldn't track arrows unless they were +1 or enchanted or whatever.

Mike Q

@NautArch Yes, that's the nature of melee versus ranged. If the concept of Euclidean distance exists in a system, then the system will always support using distance as a defense. The farther you are from the bad thing, the less likely it is to hurt you.

A Very Large Bear

My groups aren't particularly big on bookkeeping though.

NautArch

It seems like a lot of folks don't track the ammo, then. Do you track rations?

Rubiksmoose

My main argument is: if it does not encourage fun why include it? Do you think your players will enjoy having to do this? Do you as a DM want to have to keep thinking about it and reminding them to track it (they will forget) figuring out at the end of every battle how many arrows were spent and how many they get back (this will take time)? Does adding this add more fun to your game than it takes away?

GreySage

4:10 PM

@MikeQ Today in DnD: Adventures in non-Euclidean space

A Very Large Bear

@NautArch if the party is going for an extended trip into inhospitable land, I'll track it. But if they are near towns or there is the possibility of scavenging, then no

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel NO, it isn't weird. If you like most of the rules, but a few just don't fit, it's smart to tinker with a few. Your "sacred' thing is ... nonsense or hyperbole, not sure which.

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose If ammo exists, then it can be used as a reward. And maybe you could create special ammo with extra abilities - now the player gets to choose which ammo to use for different shots. Beyond that... it's mainly a limitation. Although not by much - arrows are cheap, and often recoverable

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Only if they are in a truly barren place. The rules for foraging are very easy in D&D anyways. And if you have anybody with goodberry or Create Food and Water it becomes basically irrelevant.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose My world has very strict owned estates with serious laws against poaching.

KorvinStarmast

4:12 PM

@Rubiksmoose 6-8 encounters per day? Or 15 minute adventure day?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose and goodberry is food only, not water.

@KorvinStarmast I'm planning on 3ish encounters per day.

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ Special ammo should be tracked I completely agree. Poison arrows, +1 arrows those are good. But also very easy to track and will be used sparingly and for special occasions. That adds fun I feel and the relatively low amount of them and times they will be used counterbalance the inconvenience I feel.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Because the melee fighters are getting swung at every round, that's why.

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose Yes, you could treat ammunition like spell components: Assume that the character has enough, with the exception of specific rare ones.

@Rubiksmoose So if you're dealing with a system where spell components are consumed and it's not problematic, then it is fair to have ammunition be consumed and it's not problematic.

A Very Large Bear

@NautArch That seems like an interesting plot hook, getting caught foraging on someone's land.

Rubiksmoose

4:16 PM

@KorvinStarmast Assuming nobody is targeting the ranged people with counter ranged or spellcasters?

GreySage

@AVeryLargeBear murderhobos laugh at your attempted plot.

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose And assuming that the encounter occurs in a big featureless space, and the enemies are just charging the players to engage in close combat

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose You asked why, I gave you an answer. The 'punishing ranged characters' is invalid as an argument. Is it also unfair -- the loading feature of a cross bow or a pistol, I guess?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Be interesting to see the breakdown between ranged vs melee amongst the monsters. But it seems you generally need to add those artillery while the the melee monsters are much more standard.

A Very Large Bear

@GreySage depends on how big and bad the guy they are stealing from is ;)

Rubiksmoose

4:17 PM

@KorvinStarmast arguments based off faulty assumption don't really prove or disprove anything.

KorvinStarmast

@AVeryLargeBear Thanks for that example.

NautArch

@AVeryLargeBear The ones whom they'd be stealing from are the Dukes of the realm. Second only to the King.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Don't forget that plant food can also be forraged.

A Very Large Bear

@NautArch That seems big and bad to me

Mike Q

@NautArch Yes, and melee monsters in a big empty square room is the easiest combat to run. But in theory, combats should be more complex, and the DM should use different types of encounters throughout the game. Otherwise, if all challenges are the same, then certain classes/players will absolutely have unfair advantages over the others.

KorvinStarmast

4:19 PM

@Rubiksmoose The assertion of punishment of ranged fighter is ungrounded as an argument. Any of them is free to engage in melee.

A Very Large Bear

@KorvinStarmast There are a bunch of others too. More than I remembered.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Yup, but those plants are also on the Duke's land. THey are free to try, but the lands are watched and if they are found, then punishments will occur.

And that handles food, but water is another tricky resource (as i've learned in my very brief chatizen sessions in TOmb of Annhiliation)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch For sure, just bringing it up as a thought. Often times people jump to stealing a deer off King's land and forget about yummy truffles and other vegetative delights.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Part of Out of the Abyss adventure was foraging for water/food.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch in fact water is much more important.

Mike Q

4:21 PM

@Rubiksmoose Or the king's pet plant monster, the truffle deer

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Rabbits and squirrels aren't missed, and take less time to cook.

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast This is the adventure I'm playing btw.

KorvinStarmast

Out of the Abyss?

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast yup.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Definitely, and had thought of it :)

Rubiksmoose

4:22 PM

We're about 2 years in in real time.

KorvinStarmast

How far along have you gotten in OoTA? (How many sessions per month?)

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast We do weekly 4-5 hour sessions.

KorvinStarmast

The tier 3 group I am in began Against the Giants over a year ago, and we just got to visit with the Fire Giants ... holy smokes, those guys hit hard!

Rubiksmoose

It is hard to say because I know that we are in a heavily homebrewed section of the adventure based off of character backstories.

KorvinStarmast

And OoTA is still running? Cool. How many encounters do you tend to get per session?

NautArch

4:25 PM

@Rubiksmoose Would Javelins/spears count as ammo? Or would you count them as individual weapons?

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Recently the DM has learned to really ramp up the number. I think previously we were getting maybe 3-4 which in retrospect was much too easy on us. Now we are getting at least 6-8.

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose per session or per day?

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Playing IRL or on line/virtual tabletop?

I have found IRL play to move much more quickly ... well, it does when I DM, and when my suggestions on pacing are heeded ... :)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Personally count them as weapons since they don't really get "used up" like ammo can. Just like throwing an axe or knife in my book.

@NautArch per day. Far from that per session usually.

@KorvinStarmast IRL.

I had some bad experiences playing digitally early in my RPG career and have never gone back. I am extremely lucky that I have a group willing and able to meet IRL.

KorvinStarmast

I am envious, my only sessions these days are VTT. (Still have not talked wife into trying D&D again ... if she would, we could probably join a weekly group ... or an every other week group ... )

A Very Large Bear

4:27 PM

@Rubiksmoose Is a day shorter or longer than a session?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose was thinking that :) Was confused how you'd get 6-8 encounters in 4-5 hours :)

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose I am guessing that "day" equals "adventure day" in this case?

Rubiksmoose

@AVeryLargeBear one adventuring day usually takes us maybe 3 sessions on average if I had to guess.

@KorvinStarmast Correct. Sorry for the vagueness there.

KorvinStarmast

Our Against the Giants group has been getting from 3-5 encounters per adv day, most of them hard or harder. (We have a few players who like to just leap into the fight and attract more baddies ....)

A Very Large Bear

@Rubiksmoose Jeez. Though tbf my current group is on the 15min adventuring day for the most part.

Rubiksmoose

4:30 PM

Currently we are in a magical labyrinth with tons of traps and puzzles so that also eats up a lot of time. Besides the normal goofing and RPing that we like to do.

KorvinStarmast

Last session we ended up with a permanent death, we think, since we had to retreat and the brave hero basically said "flee, I'll cover retreat even if it means I die ..." ... not sure if we'll find a way to get his body back from the giants ... group has not discussed that yet

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast There are always those players lol

NautArch

@AVeryLargeBear Same here. Rarely do we get multiple daily encounters. TOok me awhile (like years) to stop being so picky with my spell slot usage.

I always ended the day with lots left.

KorvinStarmast

The goofing and RPing can be some of the most fun. :)

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast Agreed. If not for those I don't think D&D would hold much appeal to me honestly. The fiddly mechanical bits have lost their interest to me over time.

David Coffron

4:32 PM

My group has spent 2 sessions (our first two) on about 3 hours... They LOVE chatting with the NPCs and take a while in combat, which is fine by me, but it means our adventuring days are going to be LONG.

KorvinStarmast

In my brother's game, my old soccer buddy from high school, and I, ran three consecutive sessions with zero combat; all social, investigation, and tracking encounters.

We had a blast. (And nobody else had bothered to show up, so we just moved the story forward ...)

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Yeah. I've been trying to work in more social encounters that use some of their resources so that can work balance wise (otherwise, I have to make the few resource-using encounters they do much harder)

Rubiksmoose

My bard wishes there were more social encounters so much. But strangely they do not come up often in the uninhabited underdark and dangerous magical labyrinths.

Also, to be fair, I am the worst at RPing a bard for some reason. I am not a smooth talker or artsy in any of the ways my Bard is.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose No social encounters in the labyrinth? But David Bowie is in there

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron XD I would laugh so hard if our DM puts something like that in here.

Sir Cinnamon

4:37 PM

@DavidCoffron You mean the name that strikes fear into the hearts of children: Jareth

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose I literally ran that in one of my first D&D 5e games and NO ONE I was playing with got the reference. I added homework to watch that movie before next week lol

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron HOW?! Good on you for assigning that homework. It is well worth a watch.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron To me, the key to a useful social encounter is that it moves the story forward by pointing to a resource, information, loot, discovery, etc. other social encounters though, are just for fun. Balancing that out IME has to be based on the table's attitudes. It varies so much.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Yeah I did a social encounter with a crazy cleric lady and they had tons of fun, but they didn't use any skills or magic to discover why she was crazy (which was relevant to the plot). At least they had a good time lol

KorvinStarmast

We had one encounter where we began our investigation into the extortion racket that was oppressing the town ... that began at a barn where we were trying to get fodder for our horses. My brother wove that in nicely.

The final showdown, of course, came a few sessions later and ended in combat (and freeing a few prisoners)

GreySage

4:47 PM

@KorvinStarmast Was the final showdown against oppressive gang horses?

Hobo_warrior

Witcher 3 comes out on switch in a couple months

Yuuki

So I'm like 20% sure that Aragorn and Gimli can see ghosts and Legolas is Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense.

> Frodo, on Legolas: Once I traveled to Mordor with one guy, never learned his name. Best friend I ever had. We still never talk sometimes.

Rubiksmoose

5:04 PM

@Hobo_warrior I.. don't think that is true actually.

Yuuki

I love my Switch and I doubt it can handle Witcher 3.

Rubiksmoose

At least I haven't heard anything about it nor can I find any news of this being announced (and I try to keep pretty abreast of news for both these things).

@Yuuki Yeah that is the other thing. Certainly not without a considerable amount of "optimization" I would think.

NautArch

@Hobo_warrior pretty much finally beat that game. Debating on a NG+ playthrough.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Such a great game. Still haven't finished but I've loved every minute of it. Probably one of the most memorable and best games I have everplayed.

goodguy5

How to Make Your Own Mead

►

TIL you can just make mead

I'm going to have to do that

SPavel

5:10 PM

@goodguy5 Mead was the first alcoholic beverage in history, "just making mead" is the easiest thing to do

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 I've got a whole book on it actually :)

@SPavel In fact, it is trickier to prevent things from fermenting honestly. The trick is making good mead lol.

goodguy5

Apparently, I just need three bottles of honey, a container of purified water, and a pack of yeast.

Mike Q

@SPavel Really? I thought that beer was first, even back in ancient Mesopotamia/Egypt/etc

goodguy5

zythophile.co.uk/2009/10/15/…

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose That is usually the trick to anything

It is easier to just go to the store

I am much better at earning currency than at making mead

4

goodguy5

5:23 PM

I'm going to find out if I am or not

Anaphory

@goodguy5 If you are not, you might become good at earning currency by making mead.

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Do report back!

doppelgreener

@SPavel that is a great way to think about it hahaha

goodguy5

@Rubiksmoose well, I won't know for a few weeks, but I'll be sure to let y'all know.

I'm going to need a lot more mason jars....

SPavel

You've heard of the Cold War, but what about the Cod War?

GreySage

5:27 PM

@SPavel Are you just browsing wikipedia at this point?

SPavel

@GreySage At which point?

doppelgreener

my operating theory now is spavel simply never stopped browsing wikipedia

SPavel

@doppelgreener The S is for "browseS wikipedia"

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener @SPavel is just an advanced wiki bot that got bored.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Everything is a Wiki if your permissions are high enough

soon, we will be able to edit people

goodguy5

5:31 PM

re: that vampire spawn question

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel I mean CRISPR...

goodguy5

"If a true vampire allows a spawn to draw blood from its own body, the spawn transforms into a true vampire no longer under its master's control."

does that mean that any vampire could go around free other vampire's spawns?

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel To be fair, this would make the responses to most problem players question much easier lol

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose I was thinking Bob's Rusty Backyard Shed of Experimental "Surgery" but CRISPR works too

@Rubiksmoose brew install play-style

Hobo_warrior

Now what’s going on here a.

A Very Large Bear

5:37 PM

@goodguy5 That would be my interpretation. Sure seems boring though.

Like, as a vampire, I have to have better things to do than play pranks on other vampires

SPavel

@AVeryLargeBear Yeah but you are also immortal, eventually you will run out of other things to do

Shalvenay

hey there @Hobo_warrior and @AVeryLargeBear, welcome to the RPG.SE lair :)

SPavel

When you've lived 10,000 years and done everything there is to do, all that's left is playing juvenile pranks on the other immortals

goodguy5

boring? That's a story arch, in my book.

"So... uh... adventurers. fun fact, I'm a Vampire, but chill out. Myself and my spawn keep this barony running. But a rival leader has started going around freeing my spawn.

You can either try to kill me, which would free ALL of them to do whatever they want.

Or you can take out the other vampire and restore things back to the status quo."

SPavel

Fill an elaborate effigy with sovereign glue and trick a rival into drinking its "blood" so they drink the glue and then it sets

A Very Large Bear

5:40 PM

@goodguy5 That does actually sound like a great hook

goodguy5

ikr

I'm a genius

GreySage

@Hobo_warrior I don't want to presume, but did you mean to accept/award my answer the bounty on your disturbing behaviour question?

A Very Large Bear

@SPavel would the 'blood' even be drinkable?

SPavel

@AVeryLargeBear You'd have a small time window

A Very Large Bear

Seems like a sticky situation all the way around

goodguy5

5:46 PM

Speaking of sets of D&D creatures pranking each other...

Would Troll-sports be interesting?

Troll Boxing and Troll Rugby coming to mind first

no need to worry about injuries on the field.

A Very Large Bear

I could see a Bloodbowl type sport being pretty popular

Though the bloodshed might be part of the appeal

GreySage

@goodguy5 Does a trolls regeneration extend to brain injuries? If so, troll football might make football actually worth watching for once.

SPavel

Troll gladiatorial arena

goodguy5

@GreySage for the sake of my example, yes

0xFFF1

D&D 5e
In the situation where you have a clone, die, transfer to your clone, then recover the body: Is the body a possible candidate for becoming an undead minion, such as with Create Undead?

SPavel

5:49 PM

Set up a few hundred trolls on each side, dress them up in the armor of famous historical empires, and let them have it at one another

A Very Large Bear

@0xFFF1 That feels like a good question to post.

0xFFF1

alright

goodguy5

that IS a good question....

I mean

> Choose up to three corpses of Medium or Small humanoids within range.

seems legit. I see no mention of a soul require

GreySage

@goodguy5 Just need a corpse and you're golden

Sir Cinnamon

If undead minions have a soul is it immoral to kill them

GreySage

5:53 PM

@SirCinnamon Souls are not sufficient deterrents to keep adventurers from killing things.

4

SPavel

@SirCinnamon Unless they are orc souls

Hobo_warrior

@GreySage yes, but I need to wait another 37 minutes

NautArch

The only thing is that it calls the body inert, but isn't any corpse inert?

goodguy5

posted

meeting time

Mike Q

@NautArch Depends on the physics engine. If an enemy falls at a weird angle, the body might vibrate and flail around.

SPavel

5:59 PM

Hobo_warrior

Spa

SPavel

the issue with D&D is it doesn't have strict ontology for what is a creature, object, etc and what properties that has

Hobo_warrior

@SPavel this whole time I thought u were some mod or something, because of that check next to your name now I realize it’s ur profile pic I’m so dumb 🤦‍♀️

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel and dead bodies are the perfect example of this.

Hobo_warrior

How long has everyone been using this site?

SPavel

6:01 PM

@Rubiksmoose Indeed. With a clear definition of what is a creature, there would not be a question

If a creature is body+animating essence, then after the animating essence is moved to another body, the first body is an object

Rubiksmoose

@Hobo_warrior 7 months now I think.

0xFFF1

i mean, other than potentially being able to have your old equipment on your new ghoul, all ghoulifying your old body would be is amusing roleplay

SPavel

If a corpse is an object and not a creature, then one also cannot cast cure spells on it implicitly

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Yeah and the real issue comes with the way some of the revive spells are written iirc.

Hobo_warrior

@#¢+§€#@#€&

doppelgreener

6:05 PM

@Hobo_warrior 7 years. :O

wow i have been here a long time.

Rubiksmoose

@doppelgreener We heed your words O ancient one.

Mike Q

Is there a way to look up site users by registration time?

SPavel

@MikeQ Chop down a user and count the number of rings

GreySage

@Hobo_warrior If you click on the users name, then user profile you can see how long they've been around.

Mike Q

@SPavel Because if you think about it, the time "everyone" has been using the site is limited to the most recently registered user

$ rimshot.exe

Hobo_warrior

6:07 PM

@GreySage oh

doppelgreener

Hobo_warrior

€£¥_^[]{}§|~

doppelgreener

point of reference: this site launched in August 2010

Mike Q

Why do socialists program in python?

Hobo_warrior

@doppelgreener BOO!!!

@MikeQ idk, why?

Mike Q

6:10 PM

No private properties

SPavel

@MikeQ Socialism is not against private property

Mike Q

@SPavel Really? That's not what the internet told me

And everything on the internet is true, such as this sentence.

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel Well I for one am willing to accept a silly joke as such without getting into too much of a socio-econo-political discussion. ;)

This doesn't sort by active time, but it does show most of the oldies on here because of their usually high rep: stackexchange.com/leagues/122/alltime/rpg

@MikeQ data.stackexchange.com/rpg/query/854152/top-x-oldest-users

@MikeQ Actually here is a better one filtering out users with less than 1000 rep. data.stackexchange.com/rpg/query/792988/…

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Would not a paralyzed body, while not dead, be inert? (Or very close to it)

NautArch

6:27 PM

@KorvinStarmast No, paralyzed creatures are still creatures.

and alive.

@KorvinStarmast petrified, though...

I'd still say not dead given that greater restoration fixes that

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch still a creature actually.

(RAW) there's a question here that deals with that.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch I was referring to inert as a property of things not dead, but I think I was unclear

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast is there an in-game example of living inert object/creature?

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose IIRC, the longest time members are Mxy, Okeefe, Seven, waxeagle, Jadasc and AceCalhoun. I am a newbie.

Mike Q

Alright, so the newest member as of the query I just did is 4 days ago, which seems unusual

KorvinStarmast

6:31 PM

@MikeQ Could be the Groucho Marx thing along the lines of "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member"

Besides a paralyzed or petrified creature?

Rubiksmoose

oh yeah sorting users by user number would sort them by age lol.

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch (Elder brain mind flayer?)

I think one would need to find a creature with a speed of zero ...

Mike Q

@NautArch Is there a stat block for a nonmagical tree?

KorvinStarmast

> @NautArch which brings us to a paralyzed or petrified creature?

Shalvenay

hey there @KorvinStarmast

NautArch

6:35 PM

@KorvinStarmast are you saying that inert is the same as grappled? :D

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose then why even have an internet

KorvinStarmast

@Shalvenay Hi! :)

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast how're things going?

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch No, I am not. You brought up inert and I was trying to puzzle out how it applies in game, if it can/does. Our discussion suggest that "sort of" is the best we have arrived at...

Rubiksmoose

KorvinStarmast

6:38 PM

@Shalvenay Going better today, and hoping we can all get together soon in ToA.

Shalvenay

@KorvinStarmast hoping so as well, perhaps this upcoming weekend will work

Rubiksmoose

That is the top however many users sorted by oldest over 10k rep.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast I think the Intent of inert is no soul for bringing body back to life.

SPavel

@Rubiksmoose Is that user account age in months, or..?

User age in years?

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel I think the latter actually.

SPavel

6:39 PM

Why does SE have/need that information

Time to get GDPR up in here

KorvinStarmast

@NautArch Which to me opens a question on whether or not a zombie has a soul ...

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast I think the description of them says they do not.

NautArch

@KorvinStarmast it sounds like a zombie could have a soul to resurrect for 5e.

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast I think the way to look at it is a zombie has a bootleg ersatz soul

Colin Gross

@NautArch Zombies have the strength to move. They're not inert.

SPavel

6:40 PM

You can't resurrect it and it doesn't go to the outer planes when it dies, but it does soul-type things

NautArch

@SPavel ". Once turned into a zombie, a creature can’t be restored to life except by powerful magic, such as a resurrection spell."

SPavel

A warez soul that's cracked not to phone home to the auth server

NautArch

you can resurrect a zombie, so it has a soul?

SPavel

@NautArch No, you resurrect the creature that the zombie was manufactured from.

Colin Gross

@NautArch I thought resurrect didn't work on undead.

KorvinStarmast

6:42 PM

@NautArch As I read that, the resurrection spell returns the creature to itself, not a zombie form. (See zombie ogre as example)

SPavel

If you kill Bob, raise him as a zombie, kill the zombie, and then resurrect it, Bob comes back

Not Zombie Bob

KorvinStarmast

What SPavel said

Colin Gross

@SPavel I think have you zombie the corpse, it's a dead zombie. or re-dead zombie

NautArch

@ColinGross and you are correct "You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century, that didn’t die of old age, and that isn’t undead."

Colin Gross

undead don't cease to have that classifcation when they drop to 0hp

NautArch

6:43 PM

so yeah, good job, Wizards.

SPavel

@ColinGross yet another issue with the lack of creature-object ontology

KorvinStarmast

@SPavel At the risk of getting metaphysical, the zombie is animated by something that isn't a soul, but is instead necromantic magic; what animated the original creature was its soul. (In crude, D&D terms)

SPavel

Is a zombie a template applied to a creature, or to a corpse?

NautArch

@SPavel just have to complete step 1 of kill zombie. SO it'sdead and not undead.

KorvinStarmast

Yeah, that too.

And take its shoes

Colin Gross

6:44 PM

@SPavel True. I feel like this comes up frequently. We could probably fit this into Basic Formal Ontology. Technically, they're all under continuents.

NautArch

VTC?

Colin Gross

@SPavel A defeated 0hp vampire/zombie/whatever is still undead? or no?

NautArch

@ColinGross depends on you if yo have NPCs make death saves.

Colin Gross

@NautArch After failed or no death saves

NautArch

@ColinGross you've got yourself a corpse

SPavel

6:46 PM

I was thinking more like schema.org/docs/full.html

Mike Q

@ColinGross It is more dead, and thus more powerful

KorvinStarmast

@ColinGross Did you mean continuants?

SPavel

@MikeQ It's more dead but not more undead, undeath is not "more death"

Colin Gross

@KorvinStarmast Yeah.

SPavel

If being deader than dead made you undead, then whenever the barbarian overkilled the 2-HP goblin with 100 damage, it would turn into a 98 HP goblin zombie

Which would be an interesting, if weird, game

Rubiksmoose

6:48 PM

@ColinGross The way have thought about it, if something is dead it is no longer a creature. Something that is not a creature cannot have a creature subtype.

SPavel

@ColinGross A defeated 0hp zombie is an object of type corpse

It is not a creature of type undead

Colin Gross

@NautArch So the corpse loses the undead attribute at 0hp. Is it the corpse of a vampire? or the corpse of the human that got turned into a vampire?

@Rubiksmoose That makes sense.

So what is it a corpse of then? The last creature it was?

SPavel

@ColinGross The corpse is of the original creature, at least according to resurrection spells

Weirdly, if you treat the undead state as a template, they are one and the same

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross But this is the exact situation that makes that thinking weird. Because of the wording of resurrection.

Colin Gross

@SPavel I don't read the resurrect description like that.

SPavel

6:49 PM

But the template is effectively lost upon re-death and doesn't return

@ColinGross it doesn't matter how you read it, it matters how Crawford tweets it :P

Mike Q

@SPavel So you can beat an undead horse and get XP?

Rubiksmoose

Resurrection: "You touch a dead creature that has been dead for no more than a century, that didn't die of old age, and that isn't undead."

Mike Q

Or rather - to avoid beating a dead horse, you can necromance it as an undead horse, and then beat it

SPavel

@MikeQ tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UndeadHorseTrope

Colin Gross

@SPavel That's for true resurrection not resurrect.

Rubiksmoose

6:52 PM

So weird because it implies that dead creatures do retain their creature subtypes.

KorvinStarmast

If reanimated, yeah, but the type is still undead ... which would be the old specific over general thing I suspect

@SPavel zombie is a template that can be applied to a creature's corpse. The MM has a discussion on that

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast No the spell says "You touch a dead creature...that isn't undead." Does that not imply that dead creatures can still be undead?

KorvinStarmast

The MM has a discussion on that

Colin Gross

@Rubiksmoose Does that just mean not a zombie that's currently animated

@Rubiksmoose Although that does imply there are non-undead dead creatures.

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Not necessarily zombie, but the creature is still considered undead somehow.

Colin Gross

6:56 PM

Death and Resurrection in Dungeons & Dragons

►

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose A zombie (undead) can be an undead creature that is dead when it arrives a 0 HP. In the case of the zombie, zombie fortitude allows it to try and regen for abit until it is beat down again ...

Rubiksmoose

@ColinGross Absolutely. A creature is only undead if it started that way or something gives it that subtype. Dying does not give something undead.

Colin Gross

So what is the corpse of? Is the corpse of a zombie a thing? or is it the corpse of the person that got turned into a zombie?

Both?

David Coffron

@ColinGross the corpse of a zombie is an undead corpse. You cannot rez the original creature anymore without true rez giving a new body

Colin Gross

@DavidCoffron Unless you use true resurrection

media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/PH-Errata.pdf

David Coffron

6:58 PM

oh, that's a weird errata / it would already provide a new body, but w/e

Rubiksmoose

@KorvinStarmast No this ability prevents it from dying (it is the same as the barbarian ability really).

SPavel

@KorvinStarmast They need to put out an RPG in the format of metaphysical treatises

Yuuki

... what happens if you cast True Resurrection on a lich?

SPavel

One on life, death, undeath, and so forth, one on a Great Chain of Being type thing that lists things by CR, and so on

Rubiksmoose

25

Q: Can True Resurrection bring a lich back to life?

Say there's a lich who made a pact with an evil entity for the secrets of lichdom, but he was at the moment unsure of the ramifications of such a decision. He befriended the adventuring party prior to his becoming a lich, and they would know him well (hopefully). When they encounter him, he would...

SPavel

6:59 PM

@Yuuki The lich would be upset

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