TRPG General Chat

Sir Cinnamon

5:07 PM

I think everything in that movie was ornamental

goodguy5

separate issue.

kviiri

Beautiful sunset in Eagleland

NautArch

@GreySage But that's what I don't get. If any square is a valid hit box for the creature (which it is), then you only need 1 to be viable in order to hit and the others simply don't matter.

Simon H.

as an american, eaglecam brings me great joy

goodguy5

@NautArch yes. you're just looking for that square

kviiri

5:17 PM

As a Finn, I could just watch the lively woods right outside my window, the bears wrestling on the moss, the woodpeckers pecking wood. But Eaglecam is still the best

Simon H.

@kviiri you live near nature? lucky. I live near s a n d

NautArch

@goodguy5 I think the huge creature they chose is overcomplicating the explanation

goodguy5

@NautArch that is a part of it

*large

GreySage

@NautArch Yup. If you can hit it (in any square), you can hit it

goodguy5

it would been better to use several medium creatures

GreySage

5:20 PM

@goodguy5 But the rules for 1square creatures are simple, there is only 1 square to consider. Multi-square creatures are harder, which necessitated the example.

goodguy5

but then they borked the example!

NautArch

@GreySage Except we're having a devil of a time determining how it works with the scenario under question :)

kviiri

@SimonH. Well, not as much as I implied :P there's a beautiful park quite near me though.

GreySage

@goodguy5 Did you manually trace the lines to the farthest square?

goodguy5

@NautArch I mean. I think we figured it out, I just disagree with it

@GreySage I did

kviiri

5:22 PM

Simon H.

@kviiri Big bear is maybe an hour away from me, but it's mostly desert where I live

kviiri

@SimonH. ^ that's an aerial photograph of the general area we live in. It's a rather pretty neighborhood we couldn't afford if it wasn't for cheaper suburb housing for students.

GreySage

@goodguy5 What page in which book is it?

goodguy5

DMG p250.

You can also just prove it mathematically with rise/run (slope)

Simon H.

@kviiri Man, that's really neat. Reminds me of Massachusetts.

rural massachusetts, at least

okay maybe not that rural

ugh

kviiri

5:26 PM

Hehe :)

Simon H.

America's too big >.<

David Coffron

@goodguy5 slope of the line is fine, just be weary to track your units (5 feet per square) :P (something my algebra teacher would say back in secondary school)

kviiri

I used to live near the Helsinki central park (which is basically a big forest) but there was a golf course between me and it so it didn't feel as naturey as it should've.

Simon H.

Eh, golf

Sir Cinnamon

there are 2 Necro cantrips, chill touch and toll the dead. Toll the dead is XgtE, so at the time of the DMG release there was one. In the DMG, death cleric has the ability Reaper: "the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other."

Simon H.

5:27 PM

Better than apartment buildings I guess

Sir Cinnamon

Did they release this requiring death cleric to take chill touch?

kviiri

@SimonH. I've heard Massachusetts is beautiful

But if I ever go to America I'm going to see the Great Lakes

Simon H.

@kviiri it is. there's nothing else quite like it in America, but maybe that's because trees are more rare in California where I live

Just steer clear of Michigan, Detroit is very dangerous

kviiri

California is fun, with so many games and TV series set in San Francisco it feels familiar every time I see it even though I've never been there.

Simon H.

it's bigger than people give it credit

GreySage

5:32 PM

@goodguy5 The top left corner of the top right square is a little dicey, it gets VERY close to the black box. But that doesn't mean they screwed up the example. It just means the PC chose the wrong square to compare too.

Simon H.

I'd never seen pictures of Sacramento (the capital) until a couple years ago

GreySage

"Wrong" as in non-optimal, but still viable and rules-legal.

kviiri

Wow, the sky's glowing golden in Eagleland. <3

David Coffron

@GreySage the pc doesn't decide how cover works. The creature has cover or it doesn't

goodguy5

^

@GreySage Like I said, mathematically provable. two up one over is legal. two more up and one more over is also legal

Simon H.

5:34 PM

talk to you later.

goodguy5

bai

GreySage

@DavidCoffron The rules say "any one square" that the creature occupies. Who chooses which square? A creature doesn't have Cover, it has Cover against a specific attack/effect.

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri The sunsets have been really gorgeous every day. I don't get to see that much of them in the city

David Coffron

@GreySage if any one square is targetable, the creature is targetable

Vylix

hi people!

goodguy5

5:37 PM

hiya!

GreySage

@DavidCoffron Yes, but targetable says nothing about how much cover it has

Vylix

anyone has any idea how .mod file downloaded from DMguild works?

David Coffron

@GreySage to have half cover, EVERY square must have half cover or higher

Sir Cinnamon

My last answer had 30 upvotes eaten by the daily limit D: - on the plus side... people like the answer i guess

goodguy5

@Vylix sorry. no clue

kviiri

5:38 PM

@SirCinnamon Is there blackbird singing or am I imagining it?

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri I have no knowledge of what a blackbird song sounds like

goodguy5

A character attacks a creature, not a square that the creature resides in.

This is problem of "players have to execute mechanics".

NautArch

@GreySage I dunno, I think the character would pick the spot that's fine. Metagaming that also seems reasonable. As long as there is one good way to attack, let the player attack without giving the enemy cover.

GreySage

@DavidCoffron That is just not what the rules say. Unless there is errata I don't know about

kviiri

@SirCinnamon Well, beautiful.

goodguy5

5:40 PM

a player picking the "wrong" "best square" has no impact on whether or not there is cover available.

kviiri

Sounds of Nature Blackbird 1 Hour of the Blackbird's Song

►

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri It certainly sounds beautiful - I normally listen to music or podcasts at work but the sounds of nature are a fine replacement

GreySage

@goodguy5 Indeed, but it does impact whether or not that attack suffers from cover or not

kviiri

we have one of these singing on our yard from time to time

Sir Cinnamon

@kviiri Comparing that video to the sounds on the stream they sound extremely alike

goodguy5

5:41 PM

@GreySage There is a subtle difference between "this target has cover (or doesn't)" and "when I, my player, rolled the attack for my character, we gave the target AC for cover"

Sir Cinnamon

In canada we have Chickadee's which have a very distinctive song (which they are named after), thats likely the only bird i could recognize by sound

The Oracle

1

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discussion specific-question

GreySage

@goodguy5 Yup, and the first one is wrong. Imagine if there was another PC on the opposite side of the Ogre. Clearly the ogre wouldn't have cover from that 2nd PCs attacks.

goodguy5

-sigh-. I thought about including the extra text and decided against it. let me try again

Sir Cinnamon

youtube.com/watch?v=N1Oxm6klb-I These educational... commercials? would play on childrens channels

goodguy5

5:43 PM

There is a subtle difference between "this target has cover (or doesn't) from an attack from this character" and "when I, my player, rolled the attack for my character, we gave the target AC for cover"

GreySage

@goodguy5 What do you think that difference is?

goodguy5

It's the difference between fact and implementation.

GreySage

@goodguy5 Which (as it applies to cover) is...?

goodguy5

Fact is whether or not the target should have had cover from an attack from that character. "should have had" in this situation, being the best mechanical interpretation under the constraints of the rules.

Implementation is "we, as players, didn't notice that we added this wrong". and did a thing under poor pretenses.

GreySage

The eagle just wiggled its butt at the camera

Sir Cinnamon

5:48 PM

@GreySage SMASH that donate button

goodguy5

Imagine if a Paladin has cast Bless on a character. The player rolls and forgets to add the bless die.

The character is still under the effect of Bless

NautArch

@goodguy5 ithink what I"m saying is that as long as it possible to attack without giving the target cover, then the attack is without cover.

goodguy5

@NautArch I agree

NautArch

@goodguy5 Which makes the question not "Does it have cover" But "Does it NOT have cover"

goodguy5

from an English point I can see how those are different, but from a logistical standpoint, I view them as the same.

"It has cover if it doesn't not have cover"

GreySage

5:52 PM

@goodguy5 From a logistical standpoint they are opposite operations (searching for ANY instance of cover, vs searching for ANY instance of no-cover)

NautArch

@goodguy5 The difference is in something MAY have cover for a specific instance. But if there is No Cover, then the fact that it May have cover doesn't matter. It having No Cover takes precedence.

goodguy5

I think we've gone too far into the weeds here. I've lost track of what words mean lol

GreySage

Interesting, and your viewpoint makes sense in that regard, but still wrong, because that is not what the rules say. Which is fine. You don't have to follow RAW, and shouldn't if it makes the game easier/more fun.

goodguy5

I think most of us agree that if there is a square on a multi-squared creature that you can target without imposing penalties from cover, then the creature does not benefit from cover for that attack.

NautArch

@GreySage i'm just not sure the RAW doesn't support that. Unless you're saying RAW is that the player must say which square they're targeting and not just which creature?

GreySage

5:57 PM

@NautArch I'm saying that RAW is saying that, as part of figuring out if a creature has cover from an attack (on a grid), the attacker (or someone) chooses a square and tests that square and uses that result to determine cover.

Because that is literally what the rules in the DMG say to do.

NautArch

@GreySage Ah, okay. That makes sense, but awfully time consuming. But yeah, that's the RAW to test it. The end result is the same, though. As long as there's one clear path, there's no cover.

GreySage

Compare the rules on cover vs Line of Sight.
Line of Sight says "if at least one such line [isn't obstructed], then there is line of sight.
Cover says "trace lines ... to every corner of any one square."
LoS is nondeterministic, while Cover is deterministic, if it helps you think about it

NautArch

or are you saying "tests that square' means making an attack.

GreySage

I meant "test the square" as draw the imaginary lines to the corners

@NautArch As long as the PCs can clearly see the map/minis/grid, then they should be able to eye-ball which square to choose and choose the optimal one, yes. But they might not.

David Coffron

@GreySage "Any one square" in this case means every square individually.

GreySage

6:03 PM

@DavidCoffron That is simply not what those words mean.

David Coffron

It is the best way to implement them

Do you recommend rolling a d4 to choose the square?

goodguy5

It is distinguishing "any single square" from "the entirety of the monster's squares"

It's telling you to still evaluate cover on a square to square basis, rather than for the monster as a whole

NautArch

@GreySage Gotcha. Yeah, that's the RAW. To me, that's a silly thing to get into the weeds with. I'd definitely houserule that if there is an attack that's clear, then I'm going to allow it without making the PC make the decision.

David Coffron

@GreySage does the DMG say who makes the square choice?

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron given that it's in the DMG, I'd say the DM

NautArch

6:11 PM

@goodguy5 and that DM better give the square that doesn't provide cover to the player.

goodguy5

exactly

David Coffron

If it doesn't say to choose a square, it should be check each. Kind of like if I said "test any one candy bar for if the set of assorted candy bars is poisoned." the only way to be sure is to test each one and then if none are poisoned (if none have cover), you are in the clear

You repeat the chose "any one" process until you've checked each essentially

goodguy5

way to kill the chat

David Coffron

No one wants poisoned candy bars...

I do think it's interesting that the ogre in the example would get cover if he squeezed into the example square. A bit of funny mechanical consequences

Could actually be worth it if the PC already had advantage from something

goodguy5

heh

"owie. you hit Gug'nar with shiny beam. Gug'nar slouch in corner for better armor class"

GreySage

6:29 PM

@DavidCoffron That defeats the entire purpose of the word "one". Also in your example how it would be implemented is exactly as I've described, you test one, and use its value. If you tested every candy bar, you've just consumed or made unsalable your entire stock of candy. Better to simply discard the whole lot than test-then-discard the whole lot.

@DavidCoffron There is no indication of repetition in the cover system, unlike in the LoS system. If you want to implement it that way, you are free to do so.

NautArch

@GreySage I don't think @DavidCoffron meant Eat when referring to testing. He meant, took each candy bar sample to the lab to determine which was the safe one to eat.

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch Sometimes, it is hard to tell what is a humorous argument and what is not here.

But walking into a phrase like that is pretty funny to me.

GreySage

@NautArch Indeed, which is why I said "or made unsalable", since to get a sample you need to open the package and extract a portion, which means that bar can no longer be sold.

David Coffron

@NautArch yeah. Don't eat all your stock. Test it some other way. I was referring to the repitition of the process. On our case, the process is testing obstructions in lines

goodguy5

TIL asinine is a badword here *sighs*

@SevenSidedDie can I say ludicrous?

Mike Q

6:41 PM

@goodguy5 No, we have a speed limit too

goodguy5

I don't get it

NautArch

@goodguy5 the key is not using a word or phrase that suggests negativity on someone. So ludicrous and asinine aren't Being Nice to the person they're being directed at.

goodguy5

but they're being directed at no one, but I'll edit it

Rubiksmoose

@GreySage Unless it is radioactive poisoning. You can test for that pretty easily.

SevenSidedDie

1 min ago, by NautArch

@goodguy5 the key is not using a word or phrase that suggests negativity on someone. So ludicrous and asinine aren't Being Nice to the person they're being directed at.

Rubiksmoose

6:43 PM

@NautArch well said.

goodguy5

fixed it?

Sorry, I have trouble with feelings

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose it was just an analogy lol, but thx for the backup.

Mike Q

"ABC has a ludicrous belief about XYZ" = not nice
"Did you see that ludicrous display last night?" = very nice
"ludicrous speed" = too fast

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron I know lol, but I found how far the analogy was going to be funny and thought I'd add to it.

goodguy5

@MikeQ that only further muddies the waters

Rubiksmoose

6:47 PM

The real question is: can you tell without opening if the radioactively poisoned candy bar is alive or dead?

Simon H.

my lord, is this reddit?

poor goodguy5.

Mike Q

@Rubiksmoose There are two trolley rail lines, each with a candy bar, one of which is poisoned. Do you pull the lever, eat a candy bar, or do nothing?

goodguy5

ABC's belief about XYZ is demonstrably wrong. I should be able to call that out, but I'll try to abide by more rules I don't understand

@SimonH. nobody suffers like me ;)

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ XD

NautArch

@MikeQ one is moving with a speed of 10, the other a speed of 15. However, one is going through difficult terrain. The question is: WHat is the capital of Zimbabwe?

kviiri

6:48 PM

@goodguy5 Sure, you can say they're demonstrably wrong, but you don't need to take it further than that

NautArch

@goodguy5 A better way to approach that is show what the correct belief is and support it with sources. Don't disprove someone else, prove yours.

David Coffron

@NautArch Harare

But only on Tuesdays:P

kviiri

Using words like "asinine" implies someone's engaged in a whole new level of stupidity.

goodguy5

/shrug

asinine: stupid or foolish

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Just remember that we all have strong feelings about what we think is right. But, for the purpose of clear and friendly engagement, disparaging the other side is not helpful.

Simon H.

6:50 PM

Is ignorant offensive?

Mike Q

It's because ideas don't grow on trees (or exist in a vaccuum). If you say an idea is asinine/ludicrous, then you're implying something negative about whoever has the idea. Whereas if you say "That is false because..." and provide evidence, then you can rebut the idea while being respectful.

David Coffron

@goodguy5 like we just had a great argument about cover without insulting each other, for example. That's the goal

Rubiksmoose

@SimonH. most likely yes.

goodguy5

like I said, I understand the words you're saying, I just don't view them as offensive.

David Coffron

@SimonH. I would argue it depends on how you use ignorant. To say "many players are ignorant of how the rules work in this situation" seems fine but "that is an ignorant approach" is probably bad

goodguy5

6:51 PM

But if it's site policy to not use those words, I've mentally recorded it and will refrain from doing so.

just like starring things gets you fussed at by besw ;-)

Mike Q

@goodguy5 Don't worry about star spam, that happens naturally. Folks will complain and that's also natural.

Rubiksmoose

@MikeQ to be fair, they weren't complain so much as pointing out how the star board has previously been used.

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron An argument that I scored a win for GreySage, as a neutral third party

Rubiksmoose

@SimonH. I would very much prefer we don't use "trigger" as a derogatory term. It is a real thing that people really deal with and that kind of discourse reminds me of less friendly corners of the internet than I know this one to be.

10

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast noted. :)

KorvinStarmast

6:56 PM

@DavidCoffron On the bright side, that has no impact on your annual bonus, nor on your next saving throw, so all is well. :)

goodguy5

@KorvinStarmast Excuse me, I won

Except for that part where SSD deleted my post

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast as long as you still give me inspiration for using the jump spell ever :)

goodguy5

that was less "winny"

Welcome back, Ano. More 5e questions? lol

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose Unless you've got a bone to pick with the Lone Ranger's horse. But then that's being Not Nice to the horse.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose Yeah, like when Dyndrilliac called my answer asinine when I was fairly new to the site. It was obvious that the intent was to insult, but I don't recall reporting that comment. I't kinda weird that about two years later, we are having a similar discussion about role playing and ability scores at GiTP. And neither of us seems to have changed our position on it.

David Coffron

7:01 PM

Is asinine okay if I'm referring to the usage of: I roll damage "as a nine" giving me 14 damage total

goodguy5

@DavidCoffron I legit lol'd. glad I'm wfh today

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron No, because that's a spelling error. Two minute minor, into the penalty box you go.

> this is a tough room adjusts tie

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast i alqays forget that rule. This is why I lose at hockey

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron Consider it done, but only if you upcast it (jump) by at least one level. :)

David Coffron

Hahaha. I always upcast my jump. Who needs wish

KorvinStarmast

7:05 PM

@DavidCoffron Sshhhhh. Be careful, you may be giving away the secrets of D&D awesomeness.

David Coffron

@KorvinStarmast Mario only knows the jump spell. He does fine when he beats up on Dragon turtles all day

KorvinStarmast

@DavidCoffron And he always gets the girl ... at least on the first few levels of difficulty.

Simon H.

@Rubiksmoose It's a shame it's almost never used in its original context in the real world, now, isn't it?

kviiri

@DavidCoffron He gets fire bolt on level up.

NautArch

@kviiri but it always ends after he's hit.

Rubiksmoose

7:08 PM

@SimonH. I do think it is a shame, yeah. Assuming by "original context" you mean to describe a situation that causes someone trauma.

KorvinStarmast

@Rubiksmoose When a bunch of people jump on the bandwagon of people with PTSD, it's (IMO) a diss on people with PTSD. And I think I'll excuse myself at this point, since we are drifting away from the topic of this chat room ...

Simon H.

@Rubiksmoose Right. It's been trivialized to far too great a degree. I apologize if I offended you.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose well the OG original context is with rifles but... it really is overused; kind of like faggot was a few years ago

GreySage

@KorvinStarmast We have topics in this chat room?

David Coffron

@GreySage topic is eagle cam

Rubiksmoose

7:10 PM

@SimonH. No worries. All is well. Thank you for saying so. I've been dealing with friends with serious issues a lot lately so it is a bit of a raw issue for me.

kviiri

Mental conditions are not bandwagons, though.

GreySage

@DavidCoffron But it's too dark to see :(

kviiri

@GreySage We can discuss birds in the mean time

Rubiksmoose

@DavidCoffron I hereby petition to change room name to "Eagle Cam General Chat"

goodguy5

I petition to open an Eagle Cam General Chat

Rubiksmoose

7:13 PM

@goodguy5 I mean I think that is just something that we can do lol

I think.

goodguy5

hrm "Rooms are each associated with a specific site in the Stack Exchange Network, and are expected to be on the same topic as that site - for example a room for the cooking site should be about cooking, as described in the cooking faq."

we'd need to tie it into RPGs

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 Time to open an Eagle Cam SE then I guess

David Coffron

U can homebrew an eagle cam magic item if you want

goodguy5

"Research for your eagle familiar"

kviiri

Eagle Cam as RPG inspiration Chatroom

Rubiksmoose

7:16 PM

@goodguy5 hahaha!

@goodguy5 I stand corrected.

Minor correction, I think calling Crawford's tweets "errata" is incorrect or at least a bit inaccurate. Errata are published corrections to the books. Other issues aside, Crawfords tweets aren't even all RAW clarifications of the text and they are certainly not published in a manner that errata would imply. — Rubiksmoose 6 hours ago

goodguy5

either that or "video production"

Rubiksmoose

So... I think I am not crazy here right?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose about?

Rubiksmoose

the above quoted comment

goodguy5

I mean, I'm pretty sure you're Crazy, but not because of that

Rubiksmoose

7:18 PM

@goodguy5 well that is absolutely true

I think elevating Craford's tweets to errata would be a huge step forward in the Crawford Power Creep and I am not at all happy that someone has taken that step

goodguy5

I agree.

alright, I have to change my oil

Rubiksmoose

@goodguy5 are you a robot?

goodguy5

or rather, I have to drive my car to a place where I can pay someone to change the oil in my car for me.

David Coffron

@Rubiksmoose in response to one my questions on Twitter he states that errata is reserved for very obviously wrong situations (like mistypes or missing context). Rule clarifications will never show up in errata

@goodguy5 just use create food and water. Oil is like water for a car. Should work

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose Well, "errata" literally means "mistakes", and I think I'd "elevate" many of the Crawford tweets to that status

goodguy5

7:23 PM

ha

zing

Rubiksmoose

@pukunui81 We use errata to correct mistakes. As a text-based game, D&D sparks too many questions weekly to clarify everything via errata.

Tweeted by JeremyECrawford on July 2, 2015 at 11:20 PM in reply to pukunui81

@kviiri XD

SevenSidedDie

:43946385 Don't mock abuse victims. Enjoy some chat break.

goodguy5

is "abuse" the most correct term?

alternatively, could you have just left it at "don't mock victims"?

(this is an excellent time to listen to the voice saying "shut up, Charles")

David Coffron

Can I mock victims of Legend of Zelda chickens. Like you should know by now

SevenSidedDie

@goodguy5 The general rule of thumb is discuss the idea, not the people. If discussing the idea involves characterising the people, the discussion has drifted from discussing the idea and on to discussing the people.

@goodguy5 Mocking trigger warnings? Yes, that's mocking abuse victims.

Sir Cinnamon

7:28 PM

Abuse implies an abuser, triggers can be based on all sorts of events (is the clarifcation i think he was making)

goodguy5

^

Sir Cinnamon

"Trauma" maybe

goodguy5

There's a difference between "Trauma" and "Abuse"

Sir Cinnamon

Over lunch i put on my Pedants Pendant

goodguy5

There's a lot of overlap, but they're different things.

kviiri

7:29 PM

He did apologize afterwards though, I don't disagree with deleting the message but is a chat break really necessary?

goodguy5

My Pedant's Pendant is also a cursed item that I cannot remove.

SevenSidedDie

Alright then. But still, mocking trigger warnings is, like, a standard way to re-traumatise people on purpose. Doing it for a joke is, at best, mocking people accidentally. Either way, ignorance of rules doesn't mean they get to be broken.

kviiri

@SevenSidedDie I agree, it's a sadly common mistake people make without realizing the gravity of it

David Coffron

@kviiri unfortunately yes. Some people might not learn from just a warning and while the regulars will be respectful to the climate here, the mods have to treat everyone the same which means a chat break

kviiri

@DavidCoffron I wasn't aware there was a unified penalty box policy here

David Coffron

7:32 PM

@kviiri I don't think there is, mods just react as they see fit.

kviiri

@DavidCoffron Doesn't that contradict your previous message then?

David Coffron

@kviiri mods have to treat everyone the same regardless of who they are (punish the action not the person) is what I meant

Even if the punishment is a judgment call

kviiri

@DavidCoffron Yeah, but I wasn't implying anyone should get special treatment.

David Coffron

Oh I misunderstood you then. sorry

SevenSidedDie

And as we catch things. We don't like to leave “broken windows” around, but we can only fix the ones we see. Fixing them shows the lines in a practical way though, which generally ups the level of everything else, even if we're not reviewing everything. </modding-theory>

2

kviiri

7:34 PM

@DavidCoffron I may be a bit of a softy but I think the important bit is that people understand where they've been bad and learn from those mistakes, and concrete punishment is not always necessary for that.

David Coffron

@SevenSidedDie thats why the flag system is there, to help you all out (hopefully, you don't get too many false flags) I certainly couldn't do your job

kviiri

I get a lot of chat flags in Russian

I wonder what they're talking about

SPavel

It's the Russian stackoverflow chat, so they are talking about anime

kviiri

That one time I put one through google translate, it basically said "Some joker's flagging everything again"

David Coffron

@kviiri We need Batman to cut the flags down

kviiri

7:38 PM

@SPavel My Russian friend and his wife are going to play 4e with me

I told them this would be our campaign: youtube.com/watch?v=VCY2cAQ-A9I

(I don't know what that is but it looks pretty cool)

David Coffron

@kviiri 4e feels like so long ago. I don't even know if I remember the rules. There are like minor actions right?

SPavel

@kviiri At a glance it's one of those neopagan folk songs set over a generic Kievan Rus cartoon

kviiri

@DavidCoffron Powers, huge modifiers, and yep, minor actions

SPavel

~75% of the time that stuff is neo-Nazi which is really annoying

kviiri

@SPavel "Generic Kievan Rus cartoon"? Those things are a genre in Russia?

@SPavel Oh bother... what won't they ruin :<

SPavel

7:41 PM

@kviiri It was a conveniently apolitical subject matter

And then it got politicized

kviiri

@SPavel Ah, I see. I presume the blonde hero who looks a bit like He-Man is Vladimir Monomakh or something?

SPavel

@kviiri Probably a generic guy

David Coffron

@SPavel everything is apolitical if your an Eladrin

SPavel

Vladimir has the hat

Monomakh's Cap

Monomakh's Cap (Russian: шапка Мономаха, shapka Monomakha), also called the Golden Cap (Shapka Zolotaya), is a chief relic of the Russian Grand Princes and Tsars. It is a symbol-crown of the Russian autocracy, and is the oldest of the crowns currently exhibited at the Kremlin Armoury. Monomakh's Cap is an early 14th-century gold filigree skullcap composed of eight sectors, elaborately ornamented with a scrolled gold overlay, inlaid with precious stones (ruby and emerald) and pearls, and trimmed with sable. The cap is surmounted by a simple gold cross with pearls at each of the extremities. It is...

kviiri

@SPavel Cool!

@SPavel By the way if I ever appear to know something about pre-Soviet Russia (apart from the Grand Duchy of Finland era) it's because I read Edward Rutherfurd's Russka.

A good novel, I recall.

SPavel

7:45 PM

Also, there is the basic adventuring party:
Ivan of Murom: Was a NEET cripple until pilgrims cured his legs
Alyosha Popovich: The bard/rogue, basically like having Loki in your party
Dobrynia Nikitich: Fighter with ranks in diplo and good CHA

They fight crime

kviiri

:D

SPavel

Actually most of the time they get drunk and kidnap a building or some crap

Rubiksmoose

@SPavel yup sounds like every adventuring party I've ever DMed

SPavel

Ivan is on his way to see the Grand Prince when he meets a bandit with a sonic breath weapon, so he beats up the bandit and then takes him to the prince without taking care to, like, stop him from using his ability

Then the bandit blows up the town

Alyosha has a story arc where he kidnaps a bride, the bride proceeds to beat him up and basically runs everything

kviiri

We have only one roughly historical folk hero from the ancient times. Lalli: Barbarian, power bonus to axes, attack bonus versus Clerics.

David Coffron

7:49 PM

My most recent GM banned explexplosives in our semi futuristic campaign. I was sad

SPavel

@kviiri Oh, we have way more heroes, these are just the basic adventuring party

There are two more Ivans

One is a fool, he makes out with a frog and the frog becomes a princess

One is a prince, he talks to animals and they come break him out of prison

To avoid confusion, only one Ivan per story

kviiri

There's various versions of the story, but the basic structure is: the Swedish bishop Henrik is spreading Christianity through Finland, and he stops at Lalli's house when he's out hunting or somesuch. During his stay, Henrik, depending on the version, does anything from buying food and shelter from Lalli's wife to stealing food and making illicit love to her, and leaves before Lalli comes home (hunting trips could be long affairs).

SPavel

Then there is Saint George who was pasted over a pagan dragon-slayer, where the dragon is a metaphor for people we don't like, usually Tatars

kviiri

Anyway, Lalli comes back, the wife tells him that the bishop visited (in some versions she lies about the bishop's conduct to keep the money for herself or protect herself from shame) and Lalli decides to hunt the bishop down with an axe. And succeeds.

Rubiksmoose

And there was much rejoicing?

kviiri

7:53 PM

ok, Lalli wasn't a folk hero until relatively recently, when people started adopting more of a gray-gray morality regarding Christianity and later black-white again with Henrik representing foreign power trying to assert itself on OUR soil or somesuch.

SPavel

Also there is Sviatogor, who finds a random coffin on the side of the road and thinks, what if I have a lie-down right inside

Then the coffin traps him forever because duh

kviiri

@Rubiksmoose Legend has it Lalli wore the bishop's mitre, but upon removing it, his scalp tore off (I wonder how he survived). He also tried on the bishop's rings, but they wouldn't come off so Lalli had to chop his finger off to get rid of them. IIRC one of the miracles attributed to Henrik is that one of the rings washed ashore and cured a woman of her blindness.

SPavel

Then there is Mikula, who max-leveled farming and CON and became godlike that way

Mike Q

@SPavel I'm confused. Were these historical figures, or are they player characters in some campaign?

Rubiksmoose

all these are incredibly surreal lol and I love them

SPavel

7:56 PM

@MikeQ These are folk heroes

Bogatyr

A Bogatyr (Russian: богатырь, IPA: [bəɡɐˈtɨrʲ] ( listen)) or vityaz (Russian: витязь, IPA: [ˈvʲitʲɪsʲ]) is a stock character in medieval East Slavic legends, akin to a Western European knight-errant. Bogatyrs are mainly found in Rus' epic poems called Bylinas and came into existence during Vladimir the Great's reign as part of his elite warriors, akin to Knights of the Round Table except, King Arthur accompanied his men on most of their adventures unlike Prince Vladimir. Bogatyrs are described as warriors of immense strength, courage and bravery, rarely using magic while fighting enemies in order...

Basically imagine if instead of writing boring sagas about some nerds on a boat, the vikings wrote awesome sagas about cruising around medieval Russia and beating people up

kviiri

Finnish mythology is a bit complicated because the "canonical" versions of the stories in Kalevala feature rather prominent insertions from Elias Lönnrot who collected the poems.

Rubiksmoose

@kviiri "prominent insertions"

kviiri

Eg. the central figure of the creation myth Ilmatar (roughly meaning Lady Air), best known for being the origin of the names of Tolkien's Iluvatar and DnD's Ilmater, was apparently Lönnrot's own invention.

SPavel

@kviiri "And then the handsome and super-strong hero Elias swooped in on his unicorn steed and kicked all the Swedes out, the end"

kviiri

@SPavel The "bad guys" in Kalevala are "Northerners" which... has a bit of unfortunate implications, considering the repressed indigenous minority actually living in the North.

SPavel

8:06 PM

@kviiri All bad guys are Swedes

In this case, northern Swedes

kviiri

@SPavel When Karelians had to evacuate from the areas ceded to the Soviet Union, they faced a lot of prejudice from the populations of the areas they had to migrate to. To the locals, they were Russians and to the Karelians, the locals were Swedes.

(ok, it wasn't exactly universal, if not rare either)

I guess it's the same thing where every Christian used to be a "Frank" in the Islamic areas, and every Muslim a "Turk" in Christian lands.

SPavel

@kviiri Russians are descended in part from Varangians, so they are also Swedes

Everyone is Swedes

kviiri

yep

Ryan

I just read formula for average dive is XdY is X*(Y+1)/2 however without formatting I'm not sure if that's [X*(Y+1)] over 2 or [(Y+1)/2]X. Anyone know?

kviiri

It's the latter. Linearity of expectation at work!

Ryan

8:14 PM

thanks

Rubiksmoose

@Ryan those are both the same?

kviiri

heh, that's true. I didn't notice :D

Rubiksmoose

A * B/2 == (A * B)/2

Ryan

Those aren't the same?

Rubiksmoose

@Ryan how not?

kviiri

8:17 PM

Linearity of expectation is a very convenient feature of probability: for any set of random variables (eg. dice rolls), the expected value of their sum is the sum of each variable's expected value. That's why E(XdY) == X * E(1dY)

And it works even if the random variables are not independent, which is just sorcery.

@Ryan A * B/2 = A * (B * 0.5) = (A * B) * 0.5 because of associative property of multiplication

= (AB)/2

Rubiksmoose

And for a discrete case with numbers (since kviiri already proved it):

X=2 Y=3

(2*(3+1))/2= 4
(3+1)/2 * 2 = 4

Ryan

ah im so bad at math. You're right! :D

so 4d4 averages to 10 damage right?

kviiri

@Ryan yep!

Ryan

@NautArch think I may take Cloud of Blades instead. It fits thematically with my character as well and I've got a Shield Golem that I can grapple guys with for a nice combo

kviiri

@Ryan Three rules of thumb go a long way in RPG dice math: first is remembering the formula for average, the second is remembering that expected value scales linearly with multiple dice, and the third is to remember that the more dice are being thrown, the more biased near the expected value the result becomes :)

Ryan

8:25 PM

I actually have a book that may cover this dice stuff arriving today. amazon.com/Against-Gods-Remarkable-Story-Risk/dp/0471295639/…

NautArch

@Ryan that's a neat idea. If you have a means to keep someone in the cloud, that's a pretty cool little spell.

SPavel

@kviiri Fourth: Everybody will forget the first 3 rules and expect all dice to roll max value; the DM will ban based on this rule.

kviiri

@SPavel Fifth: don't throw dice at the minis.

NautArch

i know this is a dupe, but i can't find the original

kviiri

@NautArch Oh yeah, I recall something like that was asked just a week or so ago.

NautArch

8:28 PM

@kviiri this?

kviiri

@NautArch I think someone asked about throwing teammates too.

Then again, I might've imagined it.

NautArch

@kviiri yeah, that's why i don't think it necessarily is

but i remember a question about throwing a player, too.

kviiri

And yet again... it was just a few days ago when I last thought I had imagined something that turned out to be completely true.

GreySage

@kviiri Sixth: Don't eat the dice (or allow pets or small children to eat the dice).

kviiri

@GreySage Seventh: Ludite Securi.

Ryan

8:33 PM

@NautArch yeah and it gets more fun with Dimension Door which lets me and the big lug teleport around :)

Rubiksmoose

@NautArch you're not thinking about drop kicking a gnome are you?

NautArch

@Rubiksmoose We just fought a bunch of high level gnome warlocks ( proably level 16 or something). SHould have tried that.

Ryan

Did you call them Pecks? I've decided all vicious mockery towards Gnomes and Haflings will include referring to them as pecks

NautArch

@Ryan Sadly, I never got much of a chance to fight them. They were always away from the fighting where I was until the end and with my final attack I killed him :) Squishy gnome no match for burly paladin.

kviiri

8:48 PM

I wonder why they close the eaglecam for the night

I mean, sure, not much point in broadcasting a dark screen but I would guess they don't get enough traffic to make that a real issue

GreySage

@kviiri Eagleprivacy

SPavel

@kviiri I thought you knew - Estonia only exists in the daytime

kviiri

@GreySage So sweet <3

SPavel

As soon as night falls, it descends below the waves into the kingdom of Triton

kviiri

@SPavel That's why it was called Terra Mariana in the ancient times

nitsua60

8:50 PM

@SevenSidedDie your meta answer about research/legwork: 2nd para. of "legwork" I think you lost your second example question. (There's an "or '" that never gets closed out. Unless this is some magic where every question I read on meta until I hit an unpaired "'" is meant to be part of your example, like some Westing Game trickery.)

=D

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 That would be some incredible next-level meta-skillz right there.

nitsua60

@Rubiksmoose Dude's got seven faces--I don't put anything past them =)

Rubiksmoose

@nitsua60 I generally don't pick fights with people with seven faces. I'd watch your back ;)

BESW

@nitsua60 Why did I go almost twenty years thinking The Westing Game was an obscure novel nobody'd ever heard of, and suddenly a couple years ago I start seeing references to it everywhere?

Rubiksmoose

@BESW if it helps, I've never heard of it.

SPavel

8:54 PM

The only game I play is Mornington Crescent

user15026

@BESW Wait other people have read it too? (Some days I swear I was the only one)

nitsua60

@BESW It definitely has heavy rotation around this house. Mrs. Nitsua taught it regularly in her 6th-grade class, my oldest and I just co-read it the other week. Well, I guess that's all. But still.

@Ash ^^

Still makes me cry, at the end, too.

GreySage

Sunrise in Estonia is 8:30pm my time. I should check it out tonight before going to bed.

user15026

Oh, nice :) It was one of those older books I found at a thrift store in my childhood, a lot of those ended up being things no one I knew ever heard of or read so it is nice to see when people have read those things

BESW

@Ash Yeah, I found it crammed into the bottom of my library's "paperbacks which won't last very long" shelf.

And by that point I was used to my library's fiction sections being stocked with almost nothing but obscure out of print novels.

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