TRPG General Chat

5:00 AM

I'd still hold off on sending the players towards the deck until they were able to handle the toughest thing the deck could produce short of instant vaporization.

BESW

As a GM, I don't feel like I should be putting awful choices in front of my players and then blaming them for making the choice.

As a game designer putting such a choice into my game system... heck, I don't even know the people I'm giving that bad choice to, but I'm asking them for money to be given it!

And it'd be a lot less aggravating except--as @Lord_Gareth started this topic with--it's in a system that has become the gold standard for the RPG experience.

Tarmikos11

A moment of silence for the defacement of the concept of a Gold Standard.

[Takes off hat, hanging head]

Miniman

@Tarmikos11 Eh, they come pre-defaced.

BESW

"The most prestigious thing of its type?" Really, you're going to say D&D's not that?

The Deck of Many Things is not the problem. It is a symptom of a playstyle D&D established and continues to inculcate as a default play mode to the entire community.

Miniman

@BESW Of course it is that. I'm just saying that the idea of a Gold Standard is fundamentally flawed.

BESW

5:07 AM

And I think it's really telling how pervasive that play mode has become when it's considered natural for GMs to present players with bad choices and then blame the player for buying into it.

Miniman

@BESW The playstyle the deck is a part of is giving players the choice to take risks to potentially reap rewards. That's a valid playstyle which has been part of games of all kinds for a very long time.

BESW

"It's not my fault! The system gave me the Deck, and I chose to put it in the world, but you chose to draw from it so the burden's on you."

Tarmikos11

The problem comes in WHEN the players get such a thing.

BESW

@Miniman The rewards from the Deck are not commensurate to the risk.

Miniman

@BESW True. But that doesn't invalidate the risk-reward principle.

Tarmikos11

5:09 AM

If the players are capable of handling the things such an artifact might cause (Based on estimations of CR for cosmic events and for Beasties it might summon)

BESW

I have not, at any point here, attempted to dismiss the basic concept of the risk/reward scenario.

Tarmikos11

-c- Then maybe the rewards are more worth the risk to them.

Miniman

@BESW Fair enough. I guess I was reading too much into what you were saying.

BESW

I have challenged its biased and short-sighted implementation in D&D, in which player commitment and real-life resource expenditure is trivialised by the toxic culture of disclaiming responsibility for design and playstyle choices.

It's not the designer's fault for making a bad Deck because the GM could choose to not put it in the world; it's not the GM's fault for putting it in the world because his players don't have to draw from it; it's not the player's fault because... no, wait, it's the player's fault for trusting his GM and game designer not to screw him over with a bad deal.

I've been the GM who disclaims responsibility, blaming either the system I've chosen to blindly follow or the players who trusted me.

Tarmikos11

I think there's some level of fault in every level of that.

BESW

5:14 AM

Exactly.

But every attempt to analyse it so that it can get fixed is liable to be met with defensive posturing rather than responsibility.

And then we draw on tradition to back it up, because D&D is the ORPG, the Primal Point from which all gaming must flow, the Kwisatz Haderach of design.

So trying to get out of that toxic paradigm by challenging the misdirects and the blame-shifting is met with outrage and opposition.

Tarmikos11

Lord Gareth made some good points about Pathfinder (Where I've seen the Deck of Many Things) being REALLY anti-powerful PC, so they(Or whoever came up with it) share some fault in that they'd rather make a PC Killer item than try to make the game have the potential to be naturally challenging to a powerful player. The GM who decides to give the item to the party shares some fault in that they either gave the party who the item killed before they were ready to face the challenges-c-

That the artifact might present, or gave it to a party that wasn't in a mature enough mindset to handle the item with some care.

Miniman

@BESW Who cares about tradition? From where I'm sitting, D&D is just really fun. I'm happy to continue to defend it, because it's one of the things I have found most enjoyable in my life.

In the same way, I will continue to defend junk food, because despite it's health issues it is extremely enjoyable.

Tarmikos11

And, a little more obviously, there's some fault in the players, who either A. Also didn't consider whether or not they were ready to face possible risks, or B. Did a dumb thing and drew a bunch of the cards at once.

-c- On a lark.

BESW

@Tarmikos11 I've also played a game where the GM threw five tarrasques at us, at level 10, and we took it because he was the GM.

Tarmikos11

Like "Hey, guys. Watch this. [Draws ten cards at once]"

Miniman

5:20 AM

@BESW That can in no way be blamed on the system.

~~Unless you're going to say that tarrasques shouldn't exist because they can be used in this way?~~ Sorry, that was needlessly adversarial.

Tarmikos11

@BESW Either he clearly didn't understand the concept of Challenge Ratings, or he was just pissy and didn't know how to compartmentalize.

BESW

@Miniman Sure it can. The notion that the GM is an omnipotent being in charge of the game world who shouldn't be challenged by the players even when he's obviously incompetent is kinda quintessentially what @Lord_Gareth was talking about at the beginning of this.

Tarmikos11

If I recall correctly, the CR rating for a SINGLE Tarrasque is above 11.

BESW

@Tarmikos11 CR 20, I believe.

Tarmikos11

@BESW Again, clearly no understanding of Challenge ratins.

BESW

5:22 AM

He was a brand new GM, though he'd been playing for years. It was his first session, we'd offered him no help with adventure design, and when he threw five tarrasques on the table we still didn't speak up because he was wearing the GM hat.

Tarmikos11

I'm guessing you didn't do well.

BESW

Most of us escaped, and the campaign was never played again after that one session, and he didn't try GMing again for a year.

Tarmikos11

That's a result of miscommunication and inexperience. If he shaped up since then? Good [snip]

Speaking of, I need to work on my Campaign stuff... Gotta figure out how to resize the roll20 map window.

BESW

BTW, @Tarmikos11, I feel like -c- is an electrician's symbol but I can't place it.

Tarmikos11

It means "Continued"

Though I suppose it could be an Electrician symbol.

Lord_Gareth

5:25 AM

@Miniman Roleplaying is really fun. D&D is a vehicle for a specific kind of roleplaying experience.

That doesn't mean it isn't trash. I read Fabio books, and I kinda love them. They are trash.

Tarmikos11

At any rate, folks. I'm off to get some rest, 2 days on Five Hours sleep isn't fun.

Nor is my eyes hurting.

Lord_Gareth

Enjoying trash is fine. We all have our pleasures and it is no one's right to censure or judge our enjoyment of them unless non-consenting parties are being hurt.

Tarmikos11

Like, a scary amount my eyes hurt.

BESW

@Tarmikos11 Sleeeeeeeep.

Lord_Gareth

Defending trash is less fine, because is perpetuates bad standards through poor justifications.

"It's fun" is not a defense. The right group can make any non-FATAL RPG fun.

BESW

5:27 AM

@Lord_Gareth Oh, man. I love the Stargate film so much.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW I will destroy all that you love. But honestly that's just because I hate O'Neil's actor, so very much

So very, very much

[Kneels before hate shrine]

BESW

That's legit.

He's definitely the weak link in the film.

@AmberTunnell Hi!

Lord_Gareth

@Magician - Speaking of, would you characterize my latest post as being in need of an actual finish or sequel? My train of thought got disrupted by an eight hour Deli shift

BESW

Grats on passing 20 rep. Are you looking for tabletop RPG chat in particular, or just checking out what's up with SE chats?

(Either way, feel free to hang out!)

@Lord_Gareth It needs a follow-up, but not quickly. It works on its own, but there's clearly more to say.

I'm going to be writing up our DFAE playtest characters here

Lord_Gareth

If I can be perfectly honest @Miniman, what I wish I'd get from you is expressions of curiosity/confusion that didn't also come across as sarcastic digs. Which, yes, I know, this is me saying it. Pot kettle etc so forth.

But part of the reason I snap at you is that when I read your responses the tone comes off as both holider-than-thou and vaguely condescending.

Miniman

5:35 AM

@Lord_Gareth My expression of curiosity were meant purely as curiosity, when I'm sarcastic it's hard to miss.

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman This is the internet. Sarcasm is easy to miss.

2

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth I find this ironic in the extreme, but it's probably not worth going there.

Lord_Gareth

Sarcasm has like a +20 circumstance bonus on stealth-related checks.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I actually once had to cut ties with a guy because of this.

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman You are of course always free to ask questions to unpack statements I make.

Magician

5:36 AM

@Lord_Gareth Agreeing with @BESW, it stands on its own but feels like a foundation for the actual thought that's still to come.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Thank you so much!

Lord_Gareth

At least part of the problem in our interpersonal interactions at the moment is just about everyone else here has had the chance to get to know me as an individual.

Miniman

(See, that was sarcasm.)

Lord_Gareth

So I no longer repeat rants & statements they've gotten before.

Metool

@BESW Really? Not the stone standard?

Lord_Gareth

5:37 AM

@Miniman Sarcasm was not detected.

Magician

re: previous discussion (which I couldn't participate in as boss came in): DoMT, and a few other items and abilities and even classes (hello, wild mage) have the ability to completely derail a plot. They're a giant button with "PUSH FOR RANDOM" written on it. It occurs to me that they come from the time when the plot/game generated by such randomness was acceptable.

Lord_Gareth

@Magician 3.5 fixes that in Wild Mage, incidentally.

The random was re-envisioned into a very acceptable way

Magician

Neither GM nor players were necessarily expected to have any clue as to what they wanted to do, so it was good enough to have procedural rules for what happens when you stab someone, and a bunch of random tables that'll eventually present you with someone to stab.

@Lord_Gareth And then 5e came around...

Lord_Gareth

@Magician Goddamnit wat

WotC y u betray me

Miniman

@Magician I have to admit, the Wild variant on the sorcerer is frighteningly bad.

Magician

5:40 AM

I could be reading too much into this, as I haven't played the old D&D, but it certainly feels that way. The one time I played an old module, it started with "and now a giant bird picks you up and carries you off to a new land".

Lord_Gareth

[Kinda wants to blog, wonders what to write about]

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Have I mentioned lately that the transition to 5e seems to have involved brain surgery to remove all learning gleaned from previous systems?

2

Magician

@Lord_Gareth They have a giant table of random. Everything around it is hilariously bad. Haven't actually looked at the table in great detail.

Whenever a wild sorcerer casts a spell, GM can have them roll a d20, and on a 1 they roll on the table. In addition, they have a daily ability to gain advantage on any roll, which can be recharged by GM making you roll on the table.

Lord_Gareth

@Magician That faint sound, on the edge of your perception? That thing you're almost hearing, which brings tears of sympathy to your eyes and rends your heart with sorrow? That's my soul sobbing in agony.

Magician

Which means that GM can just cut off your entire wild magic and never have it happen.

Lord_Gareth

5:44 AM

Yeah...5e's sick fetish for Mother May I bothers me

It bothers me deeply.

Magician

And on the other hand, the GM has to sit there and ponder each time if they want to risk wild magic (for a meaningless 1 in 20 chance of it), or if they want to give a power up to the wild mage along with wild magic. But wild magic is what they want to see, that's why they picked the class. So GM can at any point hand them two good things.

Lord_Gareth

Welp, think I found my topic

[Cracks knuckles to go after Rule 0]

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I really want to get you in a Fate game some time.

Lord_Gareth

[Tilts head curiously]

user61230

I second that, @Lord_Gareth.

Lord_Gareth

5:48 AM

Okay, but why

user61230

For me, there are a couple predominant reasons: 1) all the issues I recall you taking with Pathfinder are not existent or just flat-out not applicable to Fate, so I'm curious what you'd think of it; and 2) you tend to have clear and expressible thoughts about system analysis and design, and I'm curious what yours would be concerning Fate.

BESW

I don't think it's a good system for you, because the behaviour its mechanics inculcate is already behaviour you espouse--so the system would get in the way. But it'd be interesting and educational to play it with you, partly because of that.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW ...I'm not sure if you're suggesting that I'd teach you about flaws in FATE or if you're saying that I'd end up raging and flailing at it being just close enough to freeform for the mechanics to feel like chains.

Like some uncanny valley of narrative freedom

4

BESW

I'm not sure either. [leans forward eagerly]

Either way, I could probably sell tickets--albeit to very different audiences.

Lord_Gareth

The system I've never tried that I'm super interested in trying is Dogs in the Vineyard, mostly because of a previous conversation we had where you said it sounded very similar to a homebrew system I described.

BESW

5:55 AM

I can't wrap my head around how to run DitV or PK without the mechanics getting in the way of the narrative flow to the extent that it becomes disjointed and stilted.

I think it's a Forgeite problem.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW A who the what now?

@BESW Also seriously can you expand on this because now being confused is bothering me >.<

BESW

@Lord_Gareth You know The Forge, no? The RPG community which for several years was The Place to talk about stance and GNS? The System Does Matter community?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW My total ignorance could be used to un-create an Outsider in Planescape. I encountered GNS on Giant in the Playground, during the height of the bad old days when Giacamo was still a thing and the Great Inquisition had not yet happened.

A lot of very good posters got very banned, leading to a general exodus that caused the seething pit of vile curs to also leave seeking prey elsewhere.

The modern GitP is very much a place where the weapons of choice are baiting and passive-aggression and the goal of any conflict is to get the other guy to slip into report-worthy behavior

Followed by summoning the Mod Hammer

BESW

The Forge's discussions about game design outside the "traditional" context were formative to the current RPG landscape, but the actual games those discussion directly produced suffered from a universal fatal flaw: they assumed their players all had intimate understanding of Forge game design theory.

So there's a massive gap in the games between "awesome high concept and elegant mechanics" and "how this stuff actually hits the table."

Forge games are designed for Forge gamers, and at best are awkward and stilted for outside audiences.

Lord_Gareth

Ouch.

I dunno how well FATE would fit my normal play style. Just as a matter of personal habit I rarely make characters that are extremely pro-active, and I think the last one I ran like that was an assassin who murdered politicians that refused to support the poor.

BESW

6:03 AM

@Lord_Gareth Fate does not need to be about heroes.

Lord_Gareth

What happens instead is I create characters with lots and lots of potential plot hooks, which I then cast in the DM's direction to be snared at his whim.

At which point I hound the line down like some kind of frenzied freak

@BESW No, but it is about people who have goals they go forth to accomplish

BESW

It needs to be about people who go out and get things done. The plot hook concept can work, but it'll probably happen during character creation rather than during play.

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Another piece of curiosity, no digs intended: What game systems do you play?

Lord_Gareth

@Miniman Freeform, 3.PF, nWoD of various kinds (except Mage because screw Mage), former oWoD player (I'm still in therapy >.<), Shadowrun 4e, Nameless Homebrew God Game System, dabbled in Palladium for awhile (Kevin Siembieda will suffer) and Legend.

Vhy?

BESW

@Lord_Gareth You described it well, actually; I don't think Fate's mechanics will give you much to manipulate like D&D's do, but they probably won't fade into the background either. This means you'll be trying to act in Fate-approved ways but also struggling against the rules meant to support that kind of action.

Which may result in despair and rage, but will almost certainly highlight the nature of the rules and the playstyle in interesting ways.

Lord_Gareth

6:07 AM

Would you find it fair to suggest that FATE is meant to provide some of the benefits of freeform for people too shy or hesitant to take the plunge?

Miniman

@Lord_Gareth Like I said, curiosity. I've heard a lot more about the ones you don't/used to play than the ones you do.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Not having played freeform myself... I think so?

Lord_Gareth

@BESW The only difference between freeform and collaborative writing is the game-like tendency to hand-wave certain kinds of continuity and an organically-shifting storyline that, when viewed from the outside and with hindsight, can seem completely absurd.

I'm certain we all know how game plots get

They're hardly the neat little things you find in novels

BESW

Hee.

Lord_Gareth

The thing about free-form gaming, especially if you don't have a GM stand-in, is that the currency that makes it run is trust

Mechanics of any kind in an RPG serve first and foremost to compensate for an inherent lack of trust.

Either in the judgment, intent, or writing skills of your fellow players.

They're a social contract that lets everyone sit down to tell a story together.

BESW

6:10 AM

Interesting. I think in many senses for my group the trust which lacks is trust in ourselves rather than in each other.

user61230

I've always felt that way a little. (But my favorite games have always been freeform.)

Lord_Gareth

That's a fair statement.

Either way, mechanics fill in where the trust ends. The lighter the mechanics, the less lifting they're doing.

BESW

Also, lots of us just plain like fiddly bits.

3

user61230

There's a high barrier of entry to a freeform game. I sat aside watching a game for at least an hour before I actually garnered the confidence to join.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW I deeply know, love, and appreciate this feeling, but the fun brought on by loving fiddly bits doesn't...really alter the fundamental purpose of having installed the bits?

user61230

6:12 AM

Even then, it was "I walk in the room, and sit down in the corner looking forlornly at the proceedings."

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Aye.

That's one reason I like Fate, I think.

user61230

@Lord_Gareth Have you LARPed?

Lord_Gareth

From the way you've been talking, FATE is a game for mature groups that trust each other quite a bit but, and this is important, not enough to not want mechanics at all.

They still want or require something to bridge that trust gap.

BESW

It lets the players who want fiddly bits fiddle, and the players who aren't confident in themselves can lean on it, and those who just want to narrate can let the rules slide off them.

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul Mind's Eye Theater Vampire: the Masquerade. I think the mechanics gave me mental scars. Why?

Magician

6:14 AM

@Lord_Gareth I don't think it's always about trust. Sometimes we really do want the uncertainty dice provide.

user61230

@Lord_Gareth Just curious. I go to a camp in New York which basically does freeform LARPs, which are beautiful, horrifying, and very emotionally intense. But the thing is, it relies basically exactly on what you're talking about: we all trust each other to help each other tell a better story, and through this, we create beautiful and complex games.

Magician

For instance, in Cthulhu Dark you always succeed unless someone thinks there should be a risk of failure. That's a lot of trust in your fellow player, but also desire for uncertain outcomes, not just ones dictated by someone's will.

user61230

We have game conventions, which are solely for communication, but pretty much no mechanics as strictly written.

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul My freeform experience has been exclusively PbP and PbIrC, which I've enjoyed quite a bit because if you're going to play in a way where description is the sole determination of agency you may as well play in a medium where you can go balls to the walls.

I dunno about you but I say things in PbP that I just can't say out loud to physical people without sounding like a navel-gazing ass.

Though I do suppose LARP as a medium, with correct costuming, helps cut out having to describe oneself

And one's body language, tone, & accent

user61230

@Lord_Gareth PbIRC is what I started all freeform with, and I pretty much know what you mean.

Lord_Gareth

6:17 AM

Which is like 80% of sounding like a prat

user61230

The people at this camp get very in character, and everyone's totally fine with it.

user61230

The interesting thing is, peoples' body language changes drastically.

user61230

I've had to deal in-game with sexual advances from people who are actually just either asexual or very non-sexual out of game, and since my first impression was in-game of that, I assumed that was who they were and was completely wrong when I actually talked to them.

user61230

Physical dynamics change drastically, in ways that are hard to even begin to describe.

Lord_Gareth

That sounds like a place I really want to visit, when I can afford better costuming than the flayed skins of my murdered neighbors.

user61230

6:20 AM

They have costuming provided! But that's more of a technical (but rather important) detail.

user61230

Camp has a costuming department, which deals strictly with making appreciably realistic and detailed costumes for characters.

BESW

@Ben Hi!

Ben

Hey @BESW Just having a look. What's the topic?

BESW

@Ben The relationship between freeform RPGs and rule-based RPGs, and where they overlap and co-exist.

Lord_Gareth

@Ben At the moment, the comparisons between FATE and Freeform, and the effects of various mediums on Freeform play.

Also my needless capitalizations.

BESW

6:23 AM

Specifically, the role of Fate as a kind of freeform gateway system, and parallels to LARP play.

Ben

@Lord_Gareth I have the same problem. You're not alone.

user61230

(This is also why I'd love to open up a freeform roleplaying chat on RPG.SE - I think it would be so much fun.)

BESW

The Back Room: Live Tabletop Games

A space for online tabletop gaming.

1

Ben

Unfortunately I am a very amateur player, so I would have little to nothing to add...

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul Open-world enter-as-you-like freeforms have always left a really poor taste in my mouth.

BESW

6:24 AM

@Ben You're welcome to hang out, and if there's another topic you'd like to switch to, we're definitely cool with that.

Lord_Gareth

Mostly because of players entering and vanishing, lack of quality control on membership admittance, and that kind of thing.

@Ben Now why would you think something silly like that? Veteran RPG enthusiasts can be some of the least helpful and innovative people you could ever hope to not play with ever. Your input isn't just welcome, it's wanted.

4

BESW

(We switch topics fast and furious around here.)

Lord_Gareth

Outside perspectives are good

Calcification is bad.

user61230

@Lord_Gareth I've had that problem too, but I think much of it depends on the audience you're drawing from.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth 'struth.

user61230

6:26 AM

RPG.SE, especially this chat, is filled with people who have a drive to create interesting stories, and understand/are willing to learn the principles of freeform roleplaying. That's sort of why I think it could work here, though like I say, I know what you mean. I've had problems with it, too.

Lord_Gareth

(It's almost gotten to the point where when someone goes, "I've played for X years and [...]" I automatically start typing 'Please staple a diseased squirrel to your nethers' before having to check and see if it's a forum where I'm allowed to say that)

(Just because Freaking Grognards I Swear to Hell)

Ben

Actually one thing I've been having issue with is descriptiveness from GM's (I've asked a couple questions bout it, but I never really got a straight answer)

Miniman

@Emrakul Why 'especially this chat?'

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul A semi-regular or play-as-available freeform with a plot & consistent world would probably work just fine

@Ben Speak, Supplicant

Ben

My main question is building skill to becoming more descriptive.

How?

BESW

6:28 AM

@Lord_Gareth I've been playing D&D 3.5 for seven years and... [transforms into booce and rips Core books to confetti`]`

lisardggY

Yo.

user61230

@Miniman Primarily because we're frequently talking about what it means to roleplay, and how best to do it, from all sorts of different perspectives.

BESW

@lisardggY Yawp.

user61230

@lisardggY Heyo! @Lord_Gareth I'm going to think about how to do it, because I think it could definitely be done in an engaging way.

BESW

@Ben Practice! And not just during the game.

As a GM, part of my prep involves imagining the places and people I'll be introducing and practicing describing them pithily.

Lord_Gareth

6:29 AM

@Ben The first step to learning how to write - and really, storytelling aloud is just writing by talking - is to read. Read a lot.

lisardggY

@Emrakul For a second I thought you were greeting me as @Lord_Gareth. For a minute I was confused, wondering if I was @Lord_Gareth. But no. I haven't the raeg to muster for it.

Ben

I had some ideas but unfortunately they restrict other gameplay features. One thought was to make the game more linear to try develop the skill...

BESW

And yes, I find authors who describe things well and I read them for ideas and techniques.

@Ben If it's a matter of not knowing what you'll be called upon to describe, so you can't prep... my solution is to dump them on a small island in the middle of nowhere.

user61230

@Ben Here's a tip I have: occasionally, when you notice yourself in a particular environment, pause, and just observe it. Observe it with your nose, your eyes, and your ears, particularly, and ask yourself: what makes this a complete experience?

Lord_Gareth

@Ben You can place the players in a controlled environment scenario. For example, I have a plot for a one-shot that I'm sitting on that hires the PCs to infiltrate a contest. In this contest, adventurers from around the world brave a dungeon to seek a prize.

A contained but non-linear environment lets them have agency and you have a reasonable idea of what to expect.

Ben

6:32 AM

Never even looked at it that way :)

user61230

For instance, staring at my desk, I see clutter. But I don't just see clutter, I see directed clutter. There are open notebooks with arcane drawings on them. I have a gas receipt I haven't filed, stacked under a newspaper article. The clutter is the clutter of someone who lives casually, and perhaps with a little less aim than they'd like.

user61230

There are a couple Japanese candy wrappers on the table. There's the sound of a computer fan humming, which marks this as a workstation. Without all the junk, it'd probably look like a hackneyed workstation, and it feels like one - but it also feels like a living space.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth IE: dump them on a small island.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW No. Dump a small island into their minds and make them find the source of the coma dream in order to escape their shared subconscious before their identities blur together irreversibly.

Ben

Explore inward rather than outward seems to be the general consensus. I like it :)

user61230

6:33 AM

And from this, I can begin to refine: what makes my desk my desk? By answering this about enough environments, you'll be able to see and feel what about the scene you're creating would your players notice.

BESW

@Lord_Gareth You say Lovecraftian horror, I say potato.

user61230

The actual words are less important than the content: if you know what you need to describe, 90% of the time the message will get across just because you know it so well. The words flow easier over time.

Lord_Gareth

@lisardggY Becoming me is like becoming Batman; no one wants to pay the cost up front. No one wants their parents shot to become Batman, and no one wants to have the living hell beaten out of them for eight years straight while the authority figures in their life ignore it or blame the victim in order to become me.

BESW

@Emrakul This is related to some advice I gave Greener last week about adventure design.

user61230

@Lord_Gareth But killing Batman's parents saved so many lives!

Magician

6:35 AM

@BESW Potato. Deep beneath the earth it lies. It waits. It grows. It sprouts. It reaches out until its terrible tendrils break the surface. Soon.

9

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul Yeah but that doesn't make you likely to personally volunteer for it.

user61230

@Lord_Gareth Well, fair.

BESW

First, figure out what the purpose or goal is; then figure out what elements are crucial to achieving the goal, the things that cannot be removed without pulling the teeth on the experience; then figure out what is nonessential but adds flavour and interest.

lisardggY

@Lord_Gareth Once more I lament that Lore Sjoberg's Bad Gods site is down and I can't link to the webcomics I want to.

I should've downloaded the whole thing when I had the chance.

Lord_Gareth

Eh, not sure if I want my personal tragedy answered with a webcomic link.

I might actually get offended

BESW

6:36 AM

This works for storytelling, setting design, plot design, and as a description strategy.

user61230

Oh, whoa, I just read the last part of your message. I'm sorry, @Lord_Gareth, that was actually really insensitive of me.

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul Nah, you were rockin' the first half of the text. 's cool

But for all future reference, if it seems like I'm hateful and bitter it's because I am

In any event @Emrakul, poke me or something when and/or if you wanna get that freeform thing around. If we can do a play-when-available sort of setup I'd be happy to play and/or to kick some plot and world ideas around. Frankly if we wanted to do it I'd think a pre-play "What kind of world do we want?" deal might be nice.

I've been having a serious itch for alchemy punk

user61230

Yeah. I understand; while I can't say I've been in the same situation, I know what it's like. Hey, if there's ever anything I can do, I'd be happy to pass emails sometime if it would help. And yeah, @Lord_Gareth, I'm definitely thinking about that. Getting a few players together is tricky, but we could definitely make something glorious of it.

user61230

Alchemy punk is an interesting idea.... hmm.

Lord_Gareth

If only we knew some @BESW who might be interested and is always on at the same exact times every single day.

That might be someone we'd invite.

BESW

6:44 AM

If I see someone like that, I'll let him know.

Lord_Gareth

I think I lost track of my own sarcasm and failed to parse if your response was a polite 'no' or a confirmation while going with the joke

The Internet: where you can lose track of your own sarcasm

4

BESW

@Lord_Gareth I'm honestly unsure. My life is kinda in flux right now, and one of the reasons I'm able to be on here so often is that I can just walk away without feeling bad when I have to take care of my dad.

Adeptus

@Magician We have some small potatoes in a container in the back of the pantry cupboard, that have shoots growing all over the place like tentacles. We have dubbed it Potatothulhu

3

Lord_Gareth

@BESW That's kind of the point of a play-when-available model, which is how 100% of my RP happens these days. "Hey guys, wanna play?" "Sure." And then when someone has to leave we save the logs and walk off

user61230

The games I've played in have previously let things run concurrently, with people free to step out and come back in without too much of a fuss.

Magician

6:48 AM

I, for one, strongly oppose potatothulhu taking over the star panel. It belongs to more storied mythological creatures such as owlbears, elephants and BESW.

6

Lord_Gareth

'Sessions' are the period between everyone starting and someone vital to the current scene leaving.

user61230

Like if you're sitting next to someone in a bar, and they suddenly become distracted and walk away.

BESW

Welp, today is Star Turnover Day.

4

user61230

You sorta just shrug and move on, and go with the flow of the game.

Lord_Gareth

@Emrakul My model is outlined above.

Since, again, lethally allergic to persistent-world open avail freeform

user61230

6:49 AM

@Magician You realize anytime someone mentions potatothulu, everyone needs to star it now?

5

BESW

@Magician Don't forget owlephants.

user61230

@Lord_Gareth Fair enough! I'd be happy just playing a thing and letting stories arise organically, too.

Miniman

Time for my pointless lurking presence to become a lack thereof.

Lord_Gareth

I hope it's been educational.

Since we're seeded into Google and all

"Do you ever get disappointed because you don't know anyone who speaks Sumerian."

user61230

I'm having some trouble converting Fate Core characters into Fate Accelerated characters, and it's bothering me. I need to figure this out to run a session... hrrrng.

Lord_Gareth

6:56 AM

@Magician - Posted

BESW

@Lord_Gareth Jinkies, Gareth, I did not need Nibiru (warning for profanity, conspiracy theories) stuck in my head today.

Lord_Gareth

@BESW Replace it with Tally Hall: youtube.com/watch?v=ybxiMNAY35o

Metool

Geh...

> Monsters By ECL:
> Apple - ECL 5
> Banana - ECL 3
> Cherry - ECL 14

Lord_Gareth

Ahahaha

I think this is probably the post that comes closest to being an actual rant.

Which is hilarious considering that Oberoni had the "Let me tell you why that's bullshit" girl

Magician

Small note, Fate is no longer fully capitalized.

Lord_Gareth

7:07 AM

@Magician I like capitalizing things and will continue to do so.

user61230

@Magician WHAT IF I'M SHOUTING IT AT YOU?

Magician

@Lord_Gareth Fair 'nuff

Lord_Gareth

Also one day I will find a system where I can play Codename: GARM

Magician

@Emrakul THAT is a very STRANGE vocal CONDITION. You should PROBABLY see a DOCTOR.

user61230

I LOST MY INSIDE VOICE WHEN I WAS THREE YEARS OLD, AND I'M STILL LOOKIN' FOR IT!

Lord_Gareth

7:10 AM

@Emrakul IT WAS GIVEN LIFE BY A FEY CREATURE. NOW TOO SHY TO REVEAL ITSELF, IT WATCHES OVER YOUR FAMILY AND CONFUSES THOSE WITH ILL INTENTIONS BY WHISPERING IN THEIR EARS AND LEADING THEM ASTRAY

THE LACK OF ROBBERIES AND ASSASSINATIONS IN YOUR LIFE PROVES THIS

Metool

@Emrakul Use your from-another-room voice, then.

BESW

@Magician [squint] ...Are you a Dalek?

Magician

@BESW Are you my Mommy? // You are a good Dalek.

Couldn't decide.

BESW

You belong to uzz.

Lord_Gareth

7:42 AM

Incidentally @BESW, one thing I've been very happy about working with DSP has been the general agreement to the statement "There is no excuse for bad design." Bossman's agreed, though more than one conversation, that factors like money, customers not understanding about a design decision, or breach of tradition are not reasons to justify poorly made design. They may be reasons to alter a good design to accomplish its goal differently, but never to excuse something shoddy.

This gives me warm fuzzy feelings

But now sleep

BESW

ttfn

Metool

7:55 AM

Unrelated to anything...

BESW

@Metool Ia! Ia! House fhtagn!

user61230

From the same vein:

user61230

8:11 AM

It is unbelievably bright out right now. It's 1:10 AM and everything outside is illuminated, and I'm really not sure why.

BESW

8:45 AM

@Emrakul Around here, that means there's a night game.

Aaron

12:09 PM

Morning

BESW

Or something like that.

What's new?

Aaron

Not much.

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:31 PM

morning

BESW

Hey.

wax eagle

rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47473/… close votes?

BESW

Done.

Miniman

@waxeagle If I could, I would.

Joshua Aslan Smith

12:49 PM

CLOSED

Aaron

Is it nap time yet?

I took nightquil last night. I don't think it has worn off yet.

wax eagle

@Aaron can take some time for that to wear off...

Aaron

@waxeagle Zombie sounds

Maybe coffee will help.

Metool

1:38 PM

That feeling you get when you spend more than half the match waiting to respawn, but still made the difference between success and defeat.

It's... egh.

Game?

League of Legends.

It's... egh.

I play because it's something to do with friends, alright?

Miniman

Nothing personal. I played League for many years before I realised what an abusive relationship I was in.

I have that problem with a lot of things.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:44 PM

@metool carry support?

and yeah league can be that way miniman

Miniman

@JoshuaAslanSmith Yep, I know a few people for whom it's a perfectly healthy relationship.

Hell, it even was for me once.

Joshua Aslan Smith

did you become a toxic player or just play too much?

Metool

Zilean, the Chronokeeper. Support mage, can plant time bombs, haste/slow target creature, and resurrect with his ult. His W lets him cut all his other cooldowns by some seconds.

Joshua Aslan Smith

feel free not to answer that

Metool

Placing a second bomb on a target detonates the first!

This is good for minion clearing.

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:47 PM

@metool Oh I know what he does, I just meant you carried the game as support

Metool

I lead minions to towers and took them down, and died a lot to enemy champions.

But yes, that is how it went.

Joshua Aslan Smith

weird that you were split pushing

who else was on your team?

Miniman

@JoshuaAslanSmith I'd like to think I wasn't a toxic player. But it's difficult to judge yourself objectively. I found the community of League to be one of the worst I've encountered. It's definitely a game to play with friends rather than as a solo.

Joshua Aslan Smith

very true I know they are really trying to work on that

I keep all chat off for a reason

Metool

@JoshuaAslanSmith Can you view the stats page?

Joshua Aslan Smith

1:49 PM

yep

Metool

Held bottom with Teemo to begin with, and everything fell into disarray about a third of the way in, IIRC.

wax eagle

dnd-5e is now a top 10 tag all time on RPG.SE